The map uploaded on this post is not optimized or protected: it is for people who want to look at the map in the World Editor.

Future features preview(no ETA):

Better Water (and underwater environments):

 

Oh hey Guhun.
For logical reasons I will not be the one moderating this map
Calling @deepstrasz or @Daffa the Mage

 

What logical reasons?
What's with this sudden post?

@_Guhun_ please write the changelog and other stuff here (in the map description thread), don't force us to load external sites.

You have not credited so many people: Resources in Use by Titan Land: LoP 1.0.2 | HIVE Don't forget about those outside Hiveworkshop.

Also, rename your other map (title and inside the editor) so people will know which is which.

Please, read the information in the links below.

Awaiting Update.

---

If you want more reviews, you should participate in the The Grand Review Exchange!

R U L E S

Site Rules
Map Submission Rules


M A P - D E S C R I P T I O N

Details

BB CODES
BB Codes | HIVE

MELEE MAPS
Description Guide - Melee Maps
Describing Your Melee Map
Melee Map Description Generator v1.3

MAPS IN GENERAL
The importance of a Description
Description Guide - Maps
Map Thread Guide
Map Description Making: Good & Bad
Map Description - Templates
Map Description Generator [1.2]

How to Add a Screenshot to your Map Description

ADDITIONAL NECESSARY INFORMATION

• A credits list in the map thread description is required where the names of the resource (models, skins, icons, spells, sound etc.) authors are mentioned along with the specific resource. It would be a luxury to have links leading to the used resources. Credits in the Quest Log would be appreciated too.
  
• A detailed changelog in the first post would be helpful to reviewers and notify fans about the newest implementations to your map.
  
• Map thread tags are important. Please use those that fit and not more or none.

M A P - C R E A T I O N - G U I D E S

Details

GENERAL MAPPING
A Beginner's Guide to Map Making
The Ultimate Beginners Terrain Tutorial
Advanced Terraining Tutorial
A Guideline to Terraining and the Hive's Terraining Section
Various Terraining Tips!
Basic Mapping Video Tutorial
WE Map Editor for Newbies!
The Path Of Proper Map Making - What to do and what should be avoided

MELEE MAPPING
How to create Melee Maps
General - Melee Maps like the Professionals
Competitive Melee Map
Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps

PATHING
Pathing - Everything about it
[Terraining] Alternative Pathing Technique

LEAKS
Triggers - Memory Leaks and Custom Scripts

​

If you're not satisfied with the review and wish another opinion, contact the other reviewers or use the staff contact:
Paillan
twojstaryjakcie
Daffa the Mage
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/staff-contact.692/

 

I believe Paillan is making his own version of Titan Land, which I imagine is why he is not comfortable reviewing the map. I would not really mind it myself, but I really appreciate his sincerity.

I'm really sorry about the credits, I assumed credits inside of the map were required, not in the description here. I was in a rush to get this out on friday, so I addmitedly did not read the rules and just did what seemed like the right thing.

I'm actually really glad it was able to catch so many used resources (though it seems it's also flagging some which aren't in the map), since now I can make a more detailed credits list than the one in the map, like I did for the tools and jass libraries.

I'll get on it as soon as I can. Thanks for your time!

 

< Active member of TL community lol

 

Oh, wait, I was misremembering all this time. It was someone else from the Hive

Well, I you did help with KoT 3.2, so that counts


EDIT: Requested changes have been made. I unfortunately do not have the patience to change the map name in the world editor for every release. I will include it in the first post from now on. A bit sad that people will have to download to inspect triggers, but at least now they won't have to download both maps together, they can choose which one to download.

EDIT2: Had to upload a new patch version because more crashes were found.

 

(previous comment: Titan Land: LoP 1.0.3)

Loading screen is blank/black.

1. The Pit Lord has no "attacks land and air units" type message.
2. Cosmosis' hero icon is his .blp texture... and it turns green on game pause. Learn about icons:
   Button Manager v1.8.2
   BLP Lab v0.5.0
   Complete Icon Tutorial - All About Icons
   How to Make an Icon
3. Summon Cosmic Dragon creates a builder tent...
4. Units like Medusa, Trydentyr, Slave, Dwarf Mason etc. don't have a tooltip. Learn about that:
   Tooltip Tutorial
   Creating Good Descriptions
5. A lot of units have the same icon.
6. There's a lot of empty space.
7. Usual Warcraft III abilities everywhere.
   
8. Little to no difference between Incursor, Assassin, Whaler and Myrmidon.
9. Some buildings have one or few units compared to others. Feels, incomplete.
10. Bloodlust and Frenzy on the same faction?
11. There are some neutral units in the Titan's land. What's with them?
12. Is there any terrain height modifier command/way?
13. Sargeras has a small selection circle. Same with Ogre main building and probably many others. You can even pass through such big units/buildings.
14. Why a Peon icon for a ogre worker? Icons should be fitting.
15. Diversify units. Don't make almost copies of each other.

So, I'm afraid you need to recheck everything. Descriptions are lacking heavily.

Awaiting Update.

 

Is there anything wrong with that, though? I much prefer a black screen over the one in KoT for example, which is very pixelated. I also prefer it over a default loading screen, because it's much easier to read the colored text in a black screen.

The space I am using for a custom loading screen is competing with the space for custom models, code and custom object data. For a map like this, with the objecting of amassing as many models as possible, so that people have as many options as possible, a loading screen is not a priority, and any space allocated to it taking away from the main purpose of the map. I think a black screen is the most fitting loading screen possible, in this case.

Cosmosis is a really inconvenient unit to have. All he really does is occupy a hero icon. His abilities are archaic, since there are now much better tools to remove units from the game. You barely ever RP with him. In over 200 games of Titan Land, I have seen Cosmosis used in roleplay no more than 5 times. And all the times in which that RP did not suck was in private games. But I can't remove Cosmosis, since he is such a constant in all TL games. I don't like the idea of calling the map "Titan Land" without Cosmosis in it.

So my idea of keeping the Cosmosis icon the way it was in TL:TBotE is: the icon is weird, and it's different from all other icons in the game. So you know it's Cosmosis, and you can't accidentally click it, thinking it is another hero. This is especially clear because the icon is of a different "style" than all the others in the game. I could import a custom icon to achieve the same effect, and thus have a DISBTN, but then there is the same "competing for space" issue of the loading screen.

I bundled the second quote in this response just to demonstrate how little people actually use the guy. I knew this was the case, but I never felt the need to fix it, simply because there was NO reason to use this ability in an actual game. Even people that are new to LoP, but have played other TL maps, ignore Cosmosis, since I had never received this complaint before. I will be removing the ability in for version 1.1.0, like I did the Titan Tower in 1.0.3.

This again runs into the issue of "competing for space". There are only so many icons in Warcraftt III. If I only use the default icons, then I eventually will find myself in a situation where an icon needs to be repeated. Of course, this could easily be remedied by importing custom icons. You will notice, however, that almost all RP sandboxes, like SotDRP and RotRP, have few or zero custom icons in them.

Now, let's imagine the map is at the 256MB limit of B.net. I want to add more models. What is the first thing I'm going to remove? The icons. Now, I need to change the icons for a ton of units, because I was reusing the same custom icon in those units. All the work I had spent downloading, placing the icon in the correct folder and setting the icon for the units in the world editor was wasted. Can I really justify doing work that I KNOW will be wasted, in the "ultimate" form of the map (if that can ever be reached).

KoT is really the only map in this genre that uses custom icons on most of its units. That map has 11.5 MB of imported icons (compressed value) in it. I could fit hunderds of models and their respective units' data in that in that space. Hundreds of different options for players to RP with. Icons have little to no direct effects on roleplay.

What I do try to achieve is different icons across units in the same race or in the same hero tower. Most races are already like this. There are also some exceptions, like keeping both Arthas versions in the same Tower, for simplicity.

A very similar issue exists with portraits, which is why I generally only import portraits of heroes. But portraits are a lot more convenient, since they are bundled with the unit and removing them is as simple as deleting the portrait and editing the model if it doesn't have a camera.

That is a deliberate development decision, for a few reasons:

1. This is a sandbox roleplaying map, which does not have any custom lore. People are supposed to make up their own stories. Having no story in the tooltip is supposed to incentivize that.
   
2. Strings make the object editor slower, and they have a much greater effect than reals, integers or booleans. The same is true for increases in map loading times.

If you open the map and edit it with the world editor, the first thing you will notice is how long the Object Editor takes to update when you create a new unit. Or that editing any field which takes unit types (like 'Upgrades to' or 'Trains') is extremely impractical, unless you are using pure rawcodes, due to how slow it is. I actually wanted to do something like having the names of each ability on the unit's description, but until Blizzard makes the Object Editor not suck, or until I have a way of only ever editing object data outside of the World Editor, I am afraid I am too hesitant to do anything that would make it even slower.

How to reduce loading times of Object Editor data (see the benchmarks section)

Keep in mind that the current number of units is still not even close to the total that I'm aiming for. Which is: as many as I can possibly fit into the map. Once I have implemented the in-game terrain editor and negative flying height for decorations, I will start working on adding every model in the Ultimate Terraining Map as a decoration (in a separate class of deco builders). That's already another 1k units.

Additionally, most descriptions aren't going to be viewed (much less read) all that much. Mostly once per map, to create the first few units. After that, you can use -copy to create as many copies of a unit as you need.

Finally, descriptions are required in may maps because you can't take back your decision to make a unit: once you've made it, the resources are spent. So you need to know what you are getting beforehand. In this map, you can simply make a unit and see if you like it. If you don't, just -remove the unit. Descriptions are pretty limited in that they cannot display the unit's model. Making the unit and removing it doesn't cost the player anything.

This is a sandbox roleplaying map. The assumed form of combat is text roleplay. The only reason units have abilities at all is to support non-text RP for people who don't do it or situations where you just want to get done with a battle quickly. But there is NO deep numeric balancing going on with the unit or ability values. If someone is looking for a game where they will have complex, balanced combat with no default abilities, this map is not the answer. Especially since I want to maintain the original abilities of the default WC3 units.

Even the factions are just collections of similar models. When you are roleplaying, you don't need to stick to the same faction for your units. You can make your army with whatever models you feel like using. Maybe your army is half bandit mercenaries, half normal human units?

This is a game about building your own bases, so the terrain is mostly flat because it's easier to place units in flat terrain, especially when making a quick base. And the future height-manipulation tools that I intend to implement kind of depend on the terrain being initially flat, too.

The empty space follows the same reasoning. I will place as few doodads as possible, because the player might want to place something where that doodad is. The only thing I have changed my mind on is trees, since it's come to my attention that newer players like to use the tree formations as inspiration for their base's shape. So there will be a lot more trees with the terrain overhaul of version 1.1.0.

Since trees are removable, they are not as inconvenient as doodads for people who don't want them. That's the only kind of "stuffing" I can give to that empty space, if I consider the core ideals of the map.

Those are units that players may find useful, but which I haven't gotten around to adding for many reasons (mainly because I don't know what builder to add them to, or they still don't have a race implemented). So any player who needs those buildings/units can use the -copy command and a Rect Generator to move them to wherever they are needed.

Originally there was not because I did not like the way it was implemented in SotDRP (too inconvenient to use) and because it caused unclearable leaks. Since TL maps have never had terrain height tools, I decided they were unnecessary and more trouble than they were worth.

I have now tested it with patch 1.30, and terrain deformations now longer create any leaks that I could detect (and, boy, did I try). So they are going to be implemented on an upcoming version.

Yeah, I agree with that. But it's also an issue of available models. Some races simply don't have that many good models available for them when compared to Trolls or Humans. So unless I simply don't add those races, this will always be an issue. Since I want players to have as many options as possible, I have decided to live with this issue.

Still, I think there is a better direction to be taken. I will probably be making a seperate tab in the Race Selector for races which don't have that many units. Hopefully that will also be satisfactory for users, since this is not the first time I have heard this complaint.

These are very valid issues, and I will be addressing them in the next version of the map. The ogre buildings were made with the idea that you could fit an ogre inside them, but they have really given me trouble trying to get it right. I might just make them decorations so they can become unselectable.

---

I'm sorry if this sounded confrotational, that was not my intent at all. I really just wanted to make clear all my decisions behind the things that you pointed out. Those would all certainly be defects in a map like an RPG, Tower Defense, or Campaign.

Most multiplayer maps can afford to use icons and awesome custom loading screens because they have a more limited scope, in the object data sense. They know what they want to achieve will likely never reach the 256MB limit, so they can make what they have as beautiful and detailed as possible by importing icons and making beautiful descriptions with lore details and the like. And that's really necessary for them, since they have are a game with win/lose conditions and clear use for unit abilities and stats. So they don't need to give more options to players, they need to make the existing options as clear as possible and make sure the player gets what they actually wanted, because, many times, the player can't even go back in their decisions.

Titan Land LoP, and most other sandbox RP maps without a self-made Lore, unlike Titan Land KoT, are about giving the player as many options to RP with as possible. But really, you should think of the units as models, not as units. They are there to represent the player's image of their characters, not their stats or abilities. I could very well make a footman, give him a -size of 300, use the -makehero command to make him a hero, and -nameunit his name to The God of Swords. His measly footman stats don't matter. His -4 armor from the current implementation of the -makehero command doesn't matter. He is a god because that's what my RP demands. His footman icon doesn't matter, he is not a footman at all. What his description said doesn't matter, he's the God of Swords.

Since the units are more about their models then the unit itself, you can think of them more as a doodad than as a unit. Doodads don't even have customizable icons or descriptions. It's unfortunate that I can't make a list of names for the player to select units from, I need to use the WC3 interface of icons.

I really appreciate the time you took to review the map, and I can completely understand that you may have to apply universal standards to all maps (like in section 4 of Map Submission Rules => "Tool-tips should have descriptions and broken icons (DISBTNs) should be kept to a minimum."). But I just wanted to point out why I think some standards you are using don't really fit with the goal this map is trying to achieve. Most maps don't have issues with space and can afford to import as many icons as there are play-controllable units (in this map, ALL units are player-controllable) in the map. Those tutorials, especially, are made with pretty different kinds of maps in mind.

Thank you for your time (testing AND reading this), and sorry for the wall of text.

 

I wanted to make sure it wasn't a bug.

I mean, now maps can be what 256mb or more for multiplayer? I understand if you're referring to slower internet but sincerely downloading big maps through B.net was never fun. Going to the map's site was/is ideal.

I think you have a long way to go from 50mb to 256.

You could make "doodads" as destructibles or even units.

Really? Then why some units have description and some don't? Also, why do some units have some spells and stats and others different ones? I mean, by that, logic, all units should be a perfect copy with a different model. I mean, there are a lot of factors involved, attack and armour type for one.

Anyways, I'm not quite convinced. I still think there are improvements to be made one way or another. At least some updates with some new goodies.

 

Oh, I'm not telling you to approve the map yet, since I still need to address some stuff that you pointed out. I just wanted to make things clear on the stuff that I would not be working on, since it would be quite rude to upload a new version and not tell you why I didn't address all your points.

---

While this is true, let's consider the UTM. That's 44 MB. Since I intend to add all of that, that's another 44 MB. Also, one of the intended features is support for images (which also adds support for a lot more than 16 terrain tiles). Images take up a lot of space when compared to models, so I imagine the map size will get much higher once I start adding custom images to it. Even without these factors in mind, I prefer only adding icons if I reach a point where I think: "Yep, there is NOTHING more I could add now that will add more value than an icon will" (this is why I added icons to the Race Selector, I think does have a lot more value than icons for units). This will avoid me wasting a lot of work downloading/making/implementing icons.

There is a small issue with destructables, they cause a lot of lag: [System] DestructableHider

I used to use units as decorations for the default terrain (there are some in the Volcano Island at the very top of the map, in the island's west corner), but the World Editor is really limited in that sense:

1. You can't place units with a pathing of "None" in places they can actually exist within the game. Since all decorations use a pathing type of 'None' (since a pathing type of 'flying' will make them rise up near cliffs), that means I can only place them where ground units can exist. Not ideal =/
2. You can't set the size and flying height of units in the World Editor, like you can with doodads. You can't even set the facing angle of buildings!!!!

In the future, when I have made all the tools necessary to make in-game terrain editing almost as powerful as terrain editing in the editor (namely, height manipulation and negative flying height for units), then I will be able to make the terrain completely in-game, and export it using the Save System, convert it to JASS and add that JASS to the map file (yes, the terrain will be made inside of the map itself, that's why I'm adding all of UTM). But that's not something that has ever been done before (to my knowledge), so I've just been doing what has historically been done in Titan Land maps: very flat terrain with lots of empty space, with trees to define easy places for bases to be built upon.

If you look at YARP, that's exactly what Sir Moriarty does with its units. They all have the same data, with just the models to distinguish them (except for default wc3 units). In an "ideal" world, this would also be the case in Titan Land LoP. But, historically, Titan Land has not been quite as sandboxy as SotDRP. So I don't think I could afford to make a complete move to 100% sandbox and 100% text RP. The reason I add different stat values for some units is to keep support for people who like non-text RP. However, I will only do it up to a point. If it will have a negative impact on the MAIN objective of the map, which is offering the best possible sandbox environment, then I won't do it.

Making a bunch of custom abilities makes it so the map takes longer to load and make the object editor even slower (reducing development time), so I consider that a downside (thus, mostly only normal wc3 abilities for units). Taking up my development time is also a downside, so I only polish up unit stats when I have a lot of time in my hands (or when I can get someone to do it for me).

It's an issue of reaching as much of an audience as possible, while keeping true to the map's ideals. There will always be SOME support for non-text roleplay battles, but it will never be the primary form of combat the map is developed for (unlike say, Azeroth RP), and development time will be mostly devoted to other issues. So you can expect to find things like: units that are very similar, units with imbalanced stats, etc. These can eventually get polished and made more unique, but it's not an issue that reduces the map's INTENDED playability, so it will not be a priority.

(Most units with descriptions just use the default description (if it fits the unit somewhat), since that is even more "optimized" than an empty string as a description. Though I think you make a very valid point here. Removing ALL descriptions will make the map overall more consitent, rather than trying to reach for these small optimizations. I am a very "optimize everything as much as possible" kind of person, that sometimes gets in my way :S)

 

What? But having collision off and no pathing, you can place them anywhere, at least within the editor. Don't know if you can build them that way ingame.

Facing angles via triggers. Height, well, object editor but it's dependent on terrain height still. I don't know if that trigger related to it actually works. I tried it some years back and I remember being disappointed.

Nah, not if you make few or one level for each and base them on triggers, mostly.

 

That's only if it's a structure. Unfortunately, decorations are units in LoP (because structures can't have a flying height, unless you use an Uproot ability. Uprooted units can't use abilities though, and decorations need their special abilities in-game). Units with 'None' pathing type are treated as ground units (not even amphibious!!!) by the World Editor. Having 0.00 collision size (all decorations do) does not affect this =/

(Though now I am interested in how HiveWE would handle these units. Maybe I could have used that instead. Shame it wasn't available when I started working on this T_T)

You can set unit height, but you need to add the Crow Form ability to the unit first, if it isn't a flying unit. For structures you need the additional workaround I mentioned before. If the unit can't move (even if it's not a structure), you also need to "redraw" the unit, by setting it's location with triggers. But you can't do it in the same function that you set the flying height, it needs to be executed in a timer, to give the unit time to have its flying height set. Redrawing is also required to change facing angle, but it's even more annoying, since units don't turn instantly. Of course, in the map, all these specific processes are automated with JASS funtions that I made.

The thing is, you can see how this process is very... inefficient: Add the unit in the world editor, save the map, test the map, set the unit flying height to the value you want in-game, remember that value. Go back to the world editor, select the unit in a GUI trigger so it becomes a global variable, add it to a JASS trigger that uses my functions to correctly set the unit's flying height. If it's a structure, remember both height and facing angle. Do this for every unit you want to use in the default terrain. Even then, you still haven't solved the issue that the unit can't be placed exactly where you want it to, because you wanted it next to a cliff, and the Editor didn't allow you to place it there =/

Not to mention how many unnecessary global unit variables this would create. They don't affect performance that much, but the optimizer in me hates the thought.

When I make a SaveNLoad => JASS converter, this will be a much easier process, of course. Just edit everything in-game and convert to the equivalent JASS code. So if you really find the decoration density of 1.1.0 unacceptable (hopefully I can finish that before the end of the month), maybe the map can be approved in version 1.3.0 or so.

I could make like, 100 custom abilities, without affecting the map loading time all too much. Still, that's not really enough to reach the ability/unit ratio of Warcraft III, and you will always have a better experience with army combat by playing altered melee maps or Footmen Frenzy, since that's what those games are about. How much would those abilities increase the map's value for its intended audience, which is people looking for a sandbox RP map? How often would these abilities be useful during roleplay? I'm inclined to answer with 'not much' and 'not often', though I could be wrong.

I do understand that seeing the same abilities all the time in custom maps is frustrating and gives a sense of the map being "unoriginal", but LoP already offers:

Things that have never been present in any sandbox RP map:

-nameunit
-makehero
Multiple patrol points for units
-sele command to select deco builders by their name
QoL decoration abilities
Using commands (SotdRP-like) AND abilities (Titan Land-like) to make visual modifications to units
First/Third person camera [it's in KoT, but it was ported from LoP]​

Things that have never been offered in a Titan Land map:

Weather effects
Custom player color for units without changing the player's actual color
Animation tags
Copy command
Unselectable decorations
Free access to Titan Palace hero towers for players
Flying height for structures​

And things that otherwise only exist in YARP:

Save system for bases/terrain/trees [it exists in KoT, but it was ported from LoP, and does not save terrain, trees, patrol points or waygate destinations there]
Rect generators for custom terrain fog or to move multiple units around​

Not to mention more decorations than have ever been in any RP map (with the very probable exception of YARP).​

So while it may not offer a ton of custom abilities, it has a lot of original or very fresh concepts in its own genre of maps. I will yield that they aren't as immediately obvious as custom icons or custom abilities, since you kind of need to be familiar with the map to know that these features exist. But I will argue that they are worth more to the intended audience than icons or custom abilities, and that they are well-documented in the Manual (F9).

---

In any case, I am taking your suggestions to heart, and I will try to give some ground for some of them, where I can, if just to make the map a little more polished.

 

Yes they can but again, I don't know if it works through build as opposed to placing them directly in the editor.

Curious. Try showing and adding the abilities through triggers as a test.

Yeah.

Depends on the type of roleplay you want to have. Maybe, some will create hero arenas within this map Just saying, it's better to have as multiple possibilities as there could be implemented for further replay value.

Sure, waiting for some goodie updates.

 

Hi can I have unprotected version of map please as a template

 

The map is open source. You can find the unprotected version in the first post.

I'm currently not updating the map in THW until I think it's ready, this is the latest unprotected version that I released: https://github.com/Son-Guhun/Titan-...oad/v1.3.0/Titan.Land.-.LoP.v1.3.0_unprot.zip

I can't send you the unprotected version of 1.3.5 because my hard drive died and I haven't restored the models added between 1.3.0 and 1.3.5 yet.

 

Are we waiting for Reforged or what?

 

At this point we might be, since University completely ruined my November and December schedule

I'll have to try and get 1.4.0 polished enough. Honestly hope I'll have time for it this month.

 

When you have time. At least I know you're here.