[Melee] WC3: Orcs & Humans BETA v0.9.6

[loktar]

I might delete this later lol.

 

[deepstrasz]

I might delete this later lol.

Please do not upload if you intend to delete.

 

[loktar]

Please do not upload if you intend to delete.

Don't really intend to delete, just not sure what the reaction will be to this in its unfinished state Might be better off as a thread in the map dev forum, but not sure.

 

[deepstrasz]

Don't really intend to delete, just not sure what the reaction will be to this in its unfinished state Might be better off as a thread in the map dev forum, but not sure.

Depends how unfinished we're talking. There's no need to rush an upload though. It can stay in Awaiting Update if it's that not ready.

 

[loktar]

Depends how unfinished we're talking. There's no need to rush an upload though. It can stay in Awaiting Update if it's that not ready.

The gameplay is about as finished as I can get it without feedback about balance/bugs/etc, but there are a few missing resources I'm not sure I'll ever make. I want to, but I'm not sure I can get back into modeling after 3 years xD

 

[deepstrasz]

The gameplay is about as finished as I can get it without feedback about balance/bugs/etc, but there are a few missing resources I'm not sure I'll ever make. I want to, but I'm not sure I can get back into modeling after 3 years xD

Sure you can. It's just always the start that's hardest.
If those units aren't invisible and they look different from each other or fitting enough to their role, it's OK but definitely, having them as what they were intended would be best in the long run.

 

[loktar]

Sure you can. It's just always the start that's hardest.
If those units aren't invisible and they look different from each other or fitting enough to their role, it's OK but definitely, having them as what they were intended would be best in the long run.

Thanks for the encouragement I've added a model for the Stables and some other changes. The model looks different than in WC1, but close enough for now ^^

 

[loktar]

The human lumber mill is really way too big lol, I should scale it down in the next update.

 

[deepstrasz]

Neat. The project's name, however, is wee misleading since this is just the melee part of the experience not the campaign as well. Plus, it's not quite loyal to the original.

 

[loktar]

Neat. The project's name, however, is wee misleading since this is just the melee part of the experience not the campaign as well. Plus, it's not quite loyal to the original.

I've added [Melee] to the title

 

[deepstrasz]

1. Alrighty, so we don't have (to construct) roads to build near them. Maybe instead make building not possible too far from the base/other buildings? Just a thought.
2. I see, since there's no main building tier upgrades, we only get to reach 80 food.
3. IMO you're taking some flavour of the game by not including all buildings like say the Church. The Cleric is now in the tower, sure, grouped like the others in the Barracks but you still need the Stables for the Knight so... Same with the orcish temple. Ah, also, you might not want to have too much of a fast game since you don't have main building tier upgrades anyway, so those excluded buildings IMO might be necessary for a better steady paced experience.
4. The Scorpion has an ability Poison Sting without a proper description.
5. I know it's least micro-intensive to use the autocast Heal but maybe a Holy Light based one instead for fidelity? Then again, Raise Dead is also autocast so who knows?
6. Not sure how useful Taunt as a hero ability is. IMO, it's more than easy to counter it by just ordering your affected units to attack or move again. It also costs a lot of mana but yeah, it's the only active ability until you reach the ultimate, so IDK. Compare to the utility and effect of "Orgrimm's" War Stomp for instance.
7. Knights already have red very fast movement speed. Not sure how much the research would actually add. Maybe leave them to start with Fast instead?
8. Some of the researches in the Blacksmith need a stable icon position. The Crossbow moves where the Melee upgrade is when you research the latter. Same with Iron Plating and Crossbow. Same with the orc upgrades.
9. Rain of Fire from what I remember wasn't channeled, it was cast and the Conjurer could go about his business? Also, it had a wider AoE?
10. Would be cool to add Tavern heroes: Garona, Medivh, Griselda, IDK, whatever you feel, maybe if. Ah, I see Garona is already with the orcs which makes it two melee for them. I guess you could also think of three heroes per faction, an agility, an intelligence and a strength based one.
11. Usually, the passive ability is positioned right before the ultimate. Brilliance Aura being first is weird IMO. Same with Evasion. You might want to add QWERTY type hotkeys for abilities. Definitely having P for Polymorph is not something to pursue when P is for Patrol.
12. When I saw the Grunt wasn't a simple mirror of the Footman (i.e. requires 3 food instead of 2) I expected a different research in the mill but it was still Improved Lumber Harvesting.
13. The human mill is definitely big but I could say the orc blacksmith is also big while their mill is small. So, maybe, compensation xD? Their catapult seems smaller though.
14. Oh, OK, the wolf riders take 3 food and have Siege Attack. Hmm... The Very Fast Movement Speed appears after the upgrade on these ones. These units could be dangerous in hit and run tactics on enemy buildings. And there's another level for that upgrade which I'm not sure is helpful since you've already got Very Fast on the first one. Note that the game's max speed limitation is 522.
15. Love it that you made the way the Demon is summoned different and quite demonic, a strategical option to either choose an enemy or one of your own units (could definitely do it on a red HP one who lost the FX of Unholy Amour).
16. Poison Cloud which originally was named Cloud of Poison is just Death and Decay (like Rain of Fire it's channeled). You could definitely base it on some other ability which spawns a wandering Immolation cloud (sic Tornado) which can damage buildings as well. Units might be fleeing of course (but maybe you'd not want them to stupidly stay and die) but that can be changed by editing the unit can flee field of each unit in the object editor.
17. I never liked Dark Vision doing exactly what Vision or whatever the human one is named. I get the balance need but maybe some different flavour for both or one of them would spice up the game. Just an idea.
18. Also, forgot to mention some orcs look like Terminators xD

There's potential in this one although right now it kind of feels incomplete. You could, if you want, experiment with further mixes of the Warcraft RTS games, like adding walls to build and/or towers of Warcraft II-III.

Approved.

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[loktar]

@deepstrasz Thank you so much for the detailed review! I am going to really think about it all and make a lot of changes probably.

1. I feel it's too much a departure from WC3 gameplay for what I'm going for with this. But I might make a "purist" edition with roads and walls once I feel satisfied that this is finished.
2. Personally I kind of like this. You need to be more strategic with your choice of units and it encourages small guerilla-like battles. But I might look into increasing the food cap, or maybe decrease food cost of some units/heroes.
3. I struggled with this choice. I definitely want to have both spellcasters and upgrades in the same building, but that makes it a bit awkward to keep both buildings. Maybe I can add them and make them a requirement. Maybe move construction to Temple/Church instead. I'll think about it.
4. Oops, I'll fix that!
5. I'm hoping Artork will make some icons based on holy light etc that I can use for the upgrades and the unit infocards!
6. I've always felt my heroes were a bit boring, especially Champion. I'm not good at hero design. Maybe Taunt can decrease enemy armor or attack damage or somethign?
7. Or maybe start them out slower? Or nerf the upgrades?
8. Oh damn, I forgot to change icon positions when I moved ranged upgrades from the Lumber Mill.
9. Oh, I'm definitely gonna change that!
10. That's a good idea. As I said i'm not good at hero design though I can maybe look at some other maps/campaigns for inspiration.
11. I will definitely rethink the hero abilities/icon position. Problem with hardcoding hotkeys to QWER is that I use AZERTY xD But it's probably better for most people.
12. Hmm yeah, I just wanted SOMETHING in the lumber mill. I'm not sure what I else I could do for orcs. The default WC3 ones aren't fitting for WC1 IMO, but maybe I can come up with something original.
13. I've already downscaled the human lumber mill Maybe I'll upscale the orc one. I've also adjusted some of the pathing maps, some were too small, some too big. I'm gonna give it another check to make sure it "feels" right, including the catapult.
14. same as 7. But maybe raiders need a bit of a nerf since humans have no other siege unit beside catapult? Take away siege attack?
15. Thanks! IIRC it's basically just the default existing ability though
16. Great idea!
17. Hmmm, I'll think about doing something original with it. Maybe take away vision from the enemy or something? Definitely one of my goals is to make it less symmetric than original WC1 so there's room for some change here.
18. Haha, hopefully no Skynet Horde

Again, thanks so much for the detailed review!

 

[deepstrasz]

2. Personally I kind of like this. You need to be more strategic with your choice of units and it encourages small guerilla-like battles. But I might look into increasing the food cap, or maybe decrease food cost of some units/heroes.

Ah sure, cluttering troops especially with the horrendous WcIII pathing isn't a good idea. It was more of a mentioned thought, not a point to consider changing or anything.

4. Oops, I'll fix that!

Ah, forgot to mention there's no real difference between the Spider and Scorpion from this perspective. Both have the same ability. A sloppy idea could be for one to have attack+movement speed reduction poison while the other one DPS poison or both DPS and one of the attack or movement speed reductions.

6. I've always felt my heroes were a bit boring, especially Champion. I'm not good at hero design. Maybe Taunt can decrease enemy armor or attack damage or somethign?

Yes, if no other hero has Howl of Terror yet, attack could be an option but I think armour could also be a nice choice. Some balance testing would be in order though.

7. Or maybe start them out slower? Or nerf the upgrades?

The upgrades have to make sense both in regards to what they give and their cost. Maybe, since the wolves have siege attack, they could start with Average movement speed. Not sure how that will play out though, then move to Fast and Very Fast, the last however being super creepy as I already mentioned, against buildings. I don't remember what type of armour they have though. I guess making it Low/Light so that Crossbowmen and Catapults can do something proper against them would be fine if they will have the Very Fast bonus, if not, at least Medium so Knights and Footmen can break them but definitely not Heavy because then only abilities/spells and the magic users can hit them harder albeit with a low damage value usual Attack.
Ah, by the way, I didn't notice, can the gold mine be destroyed like in the original xD?

12. Hmm yeah, I just wanted SOMETHING in the lumber mill. I'm not sure what I else I could do for orcs. The default WC3 ones aren't fitting for WC1 IMO, but maybe I can come up with something original.

Hmm, if we are to keep it resource based, increasing gold mining amount would be dangerous. However, a small value Pillage ability instead, at least for some orc troops (not sure if the riders should have it since they're too demolishing savvy) or enable bounty, like when an enemy unit is destroyed you get some resources?

15. Thanks! IIRC it's basically just the default existing ability though

Sure but its usefulness in this map/mod is definitely spicier.

17. Hmmm, I'll think about doing something original with it. Maybe take away vision from the enemy or something? Definitely one of my goals is to make it less symmetric than original WC1 so there's room for some change here.

Now that's quite great actually. Like the reverse, yeah but it has to also black mask/fog of war for the user. It would be most useful to actually hide your base from enemy eyes ha-ha. So, if fog of war works like in WcIII (i.e. not always discovered after charting those places), Dark Version as a reversed Vision(?) wouldn't be much use unless it creates black mask zones (total darkness patches). But yeah, I guess if you could pull it so that only the enemy sees the darkness until discovered again, that would be quite something.

 

[loktar]

I made some small updates (see changelog). Should be slightly more polished now. For now I'm not gonna do any major changes (although there are some good ideas above) because I'm quite out of practice with map making. But I'll think about which idea I like best and focus on implementing that first, one at a time.

BTW, I had the move speed bonus at 500% while I thought it was 5% lol. It should now be 10%, maybe that's still too much, but at the Very Fast doesn't go into the red anymore. Knights and Raiders should have the same move speed. But I think the Siege is made up by the fact raiders have Medium armor, and knights have Large armor.

Edit: and I'm not gonna update the map anymore until I actually have some major updates lol.
Edit2: lmao apparently I changed the Hero ability icon positions in the tech tree here but forgot to actually change it in the map.

 

[The_Warchief]

Haven't tested myself just yet (definitely will soon), but just reading through the convo thread on here so far I had some ideas regarding specific points made between you and Deepstrasz.

Heroes: In addition to Orgrim and the Blackrocks, Kilrogg and Cho'gall were also involved in the First War. Perhaps Kilrogg could be inspiration for a Blademaster-esque Agility hero and Cho'gall could be used for an Ogre Magi Int hero? Alternatively, Gul'dan could be used for a Grand Warlock Int hero for the Horde. The introduction of the alternative Agi Orc hero could free Garona up to be used as a Neutral hero recruitable from a tavern, as Deepstrasz suggested. Other neutral heroes could include Griselda and Medivh, as previously suggested, as well as Turok the Ogre perhaps? Coming up with an Agility hero for the Alliance is a bit harder. Perhaps King Llane, if you wanted to style him as a sort of Fury Warrior similar to Varian as opposed to the tankier warrior style of Lothar? A few dwarves are known to have aided Stormwind in the First War as well, so you could go for a Dwarven Rifleman or something similar if you wanted a non-human option as a parallel to Cho'gall, if you do include him. As an aside, if you ever want any help conceptualizing hero abilities and stats, feel free to hit me up!

Orc Mill: A possible alternative to Improved Lumber Harvesting for Orcs could be Improved Gold Mining, as a direct counterpart to the Humans' resource upgrade. Or perhaps Improved Construction, which could reduce lumber costs and/or build times for Orc structures and catapults. Another option would be to add Goblin Shredders as a hirable mercenary unit with a long restock timer, indirectly improving their lumber harvesting without being a direct copy of the human upgrade.

Additional Buildings: If you did want to try and re-introduce some of the other Warcraft I buildings, one route would be to design more units to work like the Raider/Knights with the Kennels/Stables. For example, perhaps the Conjuring Tower is where you train Clerics/Conjurers, but the Church is where you research their magic training. The Church could also potentially have a Fountain of Health like effect where it heals nearby units, and/or has upgrades for other units, like improving hp for Footmen or giving Crossbowmen Blessed Munitions that deal bonus damage to summoned creatures like Skeletons.

All of these are just ideas that came to the top of my head. Take or leave whatever you will!

 

[Saen Tarr]

Ух ты! It's great!

 

[loktar]

As an aside, if you ever want any help conceptualizing hero abilities and stats, feel free to hit me up!

Those are some really awesome ideas! Coming up with abilities and stats are a big challenge for me so any help with that would definitely be appreciated!

Orc Mill: A possible alternative to Improved Lumber Harvesting for Orcs could be Improved Gold Mining, as a direct counterpart to the Humans' resource upgrade. Or perhaps Improved Construction, which could reduce lumber costs and/or build times for Orc structures and catapults.

Again, great ideas! Especially the second one I like, though I'm not sure how difficult that would be to implement. Definitely better than just using Pillage as I have done.

Additional Buildings: If you did want to try and re-introduce some of the other Warcraft I buildings, one route would be to design more units to work like the Raider/Knights with the Kennels/Stables. For example, perhaps the Conjuring Tower is where you train Clerics/Conjurers, but the Church is where you research their magic training. The Church could also potentially have a Fountain of Health like effect where it heals nearby units

I've actually already added the Church and Temple, and that last part is exactly what I did! Spellcasters are trained and upgraded at Church/Temple, Conjurer/Warlock requires the Towers. Conjuring Tower has Replenish Mana and Life, and Doom Tower spawns corpses like the Undead Graveyard.
At first I had the spellcasters still trained/upgraded at the Towers and Cleric/Necrolyte requiring Church/Temple, but that didn't make much sense to me in the end as the Conjurer/Warlock are supposed to be the higher "tier" units, since in the original game the Towers require the Blacksmith. I also want to keep the upgrades together with the units here, to be more like WC3. For the regular units it makes more sense (to me at least lol) to put the upgrades elsewhere.

and/or has upgrades for other units, like improving hp for Footmen or giving Crossbowmen Blessed Munitions that deal bonus damage to summoned creatures like Skeletons.

I like this idea. Some upgrades for the regular units themed around the conjuring/doom tower concepts. Maybe orc melee units can get a Demonic Fervor aura that slows enemy mana regeneration? This could be a great way to break the symmetry some more.

Thanks for all the great ideas!

 

[deepstrasz]

Again, great ideas! Especially the second one I like, though I'm not sure how difficult that would be to implement. Definitely better than just using Pillage as I have done.

Or Spiked Barricades? xD
In the long run faster building can mean more troops earlier than your enemy so it has to be properly balanced with Improved Lumber Harvesting.
If you ever mean to add more stuff to the mod, maybe Improved Masonry (vs the Wolf Raider's attacks) and as an Orc mirror, Fortifications (but on which buildings?). What I'm trying to say is you can play with the Warcraft III researches in a way they would make the map's experience neater and tweak them to not necessarily be the same as the original. As I specified similarly somewhere above in regards to Doom, as a unit ability it gives a lot of flavour to the mod when you could theoretically counter it temporarily with Unholy Armour xD (Orc vs Orc).

I've actually already added the Church and Temple, and that last part is exactly what I did! Spellcasters are trained and upgraded at Church/Temple, Conjurer/Warlock requires the Towers. Conjuring Tower has Replenish Mana and Life, and Doom Tower spawns corpses like the Undead Graveyard.

IMO, the Orcs use it mostly for defense and well, possibly for expanding nearby whilst the Humans definitely can heal their units and move them all over the map, so defense and attack.

I like this idea. Some upgrades for the regular units themed around the conjuring/doom tower concepts. Maybe orc melee units can get a Demonic Fervor aura that slows enemy mana regeneration? This could be a great way to break the symmetry some more.

That sounds dangerous IMO. Imagine Raiders with Unholy Armour draining Human/enemy casters by simply moving around them. Mayhap, a very low range for the aura? Feedback, however, could be used on a orc unit instead. Would be cool for the casters to actually have 4 abilities. The first being their usual attack in the original game. For instance, the Necrolyte's Shadow Spear could function similar to Mana Burn.

Glad this project is getting attention and brainstorming. Thanks for dropping by @The_Warchief! Please do aid @loktar with custom hero concepts.

 

[loktar]

In the long run faster building can mean more troops earlier than your enemy so it has to be properly balanced with Improved Lumber Harvesting.
If you ever mean to add more stuff to the mod, maybe Improved Masonry (vs the Wolf Raider's attacks) and as an Orc mirror, Fortifications (but on which buildings?). What I'm trying to say is you can play with the Warcraft III researches in a way they would make the map's experience neater and tweak them to not necessarily be the same as the original.

I was considering adding these, but the problem is that the Orc Fortified Defenses upgrade changes the defense type, and all the buildings are already Fortified (the highest). Maybe I could downgrade the defense type of some buildings, like burrows, lumber mill, blacksmith? And then make sure Improved Masonry isn't too powerful.

IMO, the Orcs use it mostly for defense and well, possibly for expanding nearby whilst the Humans definitely can heal their units and move them all over the map, so defense and attack.

Maybe this is a good way to counter Raiders/Catapults? If you can heal/mana while defending then you can fight them off more easily. Or maybe make it mana only. I was also thinking about moving replenish health to the Church (keep mana at the Tower), and then also add it to the Temple.

That sounds dangerous IMO. Imagine Raiders with Unholy Armour draining Human/enemy casters by simply moving around them. Mayhap, a very low range for the aura? Feedback, however, could be used on a orc unit instead. Would be cool for the casters to actually have 4 abilities. The first being their usual attack in the original game. For instance, the Necrolyte's Shadow Spear could function similar to Mana Burn.

Hmm you're probably right. Maybe an aura that gives increased attack rate or regeneration rate? In any case it shouldn't be too powerful.
Maybe the attacks from the original game can be added as passive, available by default?

Glad this project is getting attention and brainstorming.

Me too! I'm gonna work on it some more tonight

 

[Saen Tarr]

Very great. Some make a other maps?

 

[loktar]

Very great. Some make a other maps?

Thanks! When this is finished I might add some more maps, but it may take a while before that happens

 

[DREADMAN]

A very interesting map in the battle genre
It's a pity that I can't try it, because the game requires a reforged version
By the way, thanks for adding my slugs to your new project, it's very nice for me that my models can be useful for people
If you changed the textures of the earth and trees as in Warcraft 1 or 2, then there would be a feeling of nostalgia

 

[loktar]

A very interesting map in the battle genre
It's a pity that I can't try it, because the game requires a reforged version
By the way, thanks for adding my slugs to your new project, it's very nice for me that my models can be useful for people
If you changed the textures of the earth and trees as in Warcraft 1 or 2, then there would be a feeling of nostalgia

Thanks! And they're very cool models, so thanks for making them

Edit: btw, once it's 100% finished I might make add maps for older versions. What version do you use?

 

[DREADMAN]

Thanks! And they're very cool models, so thanks for making them

Edit: btw, once it's 100% finished I might make add maps for older versions. What version do you use?

Thanks
It is advisable to create a map from version 1.26, but many people use this version
I myself use several versions from 1.20 to 1.29.2

 

[loktar]

Thanks
It is advisable to create a map from version 1.26, but many people use this version
I myself use several versions from 1.20 to 1.29.2

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind. I will have to see if my script works though, and I'll probably support two versions at most.