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Melee map suggestions for tournaments and ladders (Spring 2020)

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mafe

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Hello wc3 players and mapmakers,

for most of the time of the existence of wc3, the competitive mappool has been evolving very slowly, if at all. Recently, there seems to be an increased in interest in giving new maps a chance, evidenced by tournaments such as the Tag Team Tournament 2, or the New Horizons Cup 1, organized by ToD and tak3r respectively. Earlier this week, Tod has invited some mapamkers to his townhall meeting. From this and subsequent discussions, the topic came up that both some tournament organizers and some tournaments would like to have a high quality community-made melee maps that are suitable for tournament play or ladders (battle net default ladder or Pads new ladder, W3Champions).

The purpose of this thread is to discuss potential new maps and in the end, to come up with such a list as a result.

Such a list should be the result of discussion where not just mapmakers, but I believe more importantly, also players participate. To give some structure to the discussion, I suggest the following "goals and rules":
  • In order not to waste the current opportunity, we should come up with a (first) list soon(tm). A natural "deadline" would be May 10, some days after which the New Horizons tournament finishes.
  • My impression is that the preferred shape of results from organizers would be "top 5" of maps, for 1v1. Therefore, I suggest you try to limit yourself to picking 5 maps.
  • Maps can be from any source (not just the hiveworkshop).
  • Focus on 1v1 mostly, as several tournaments over the recent months(such the ones mentioned above) are already including a diverse mappool of new 2v2 maps.
  • Dicussion should include both "how good is the map?" and "how likely is it that the map will be accepted by players and tournaments?".
  • Any list can of course only be temporary. Depending of the success (or lack thereof) of this list, we can create a new/updated list in a few months.
  • It will probably be necessary to argue why some maps are "worse" than others. Please do this in a respectful manner.
  • Ideally, we will find a list that we all can agree on. But this might not happen. I dont know yet how in case of disagreement, we will decide the order the maps. If you have ideas, please post them in here too.
  • The list of recommended maps is in the second post of this thread.
  • Maybe some maps are held back by only a few features, and would otherwise be suitable maps. In that case, please give specific feedback, so that the mapmakers can make some quick improvements.
As a hive member, I'm probably somewhat biased towards this site, but I still believe this is the best place to hold this discussion, for two reasons:
  • Blizzard had asked about new melee maps here before (Hive melee maps for official ladder?).
  • The map database here is probably the biggest and most accesible one when looking for melee maps.
Nevertheless, I believe this discussion would really benefit from many people participating who do not visit the hiveworkshop normally. Therefore, you can help by sharing this thread in other melee communities.

Best regards,
Mafe
 
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mafe

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Level 12
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guess i go first :)

over the last few days i tried to look as many maps as possible to get a solid overview of whats actually out there, since i never done that before.
i was kind of surprised that the overall quality is not what i expected and in the end i had difficulties coming up with 10 solid maps.
i dont want to sound harsh or disrespectful but honestly i dont want any negativ backlash for our community if we present bad work.

anyways here are my top 5 picks:
Ruins of Azshara LV
Scrimmage
Shallow Grave
Greenwood Pass
Thawing Snow (im not 100% sure about this one, its really big, it has boats and northrend mercs)


runner ups:

Trophy Hunters
Northfall Isles (this one is so similar to Ruins of Azshare, i couldnt pick both)
Royal Gardens (i just done like the tileset for a competitiv map)


runner ups that could be good with some improvements:

Fallen Leaves (needs some layout and creep update)
Silvermoon Forest (this map has portals, not sure if thats a good idea, otherwise everything is ok)
Dark Covenant (maybe some layout in the middle, otherwise ok)
Avoj (needs some layout tweeks, new textures and creep improvement)
MoonSpark v1.0 (some layout tweeks and new textures for the rivers for easy readability)
Fields of Ruin (better Textures)
Sen'jin's Hideout (the top right corner has too many creeps)
Goldport (layout and texture update)
Icegrown Gorge (nothing in particular)
Irresistible Mind (nothing in particular)
Shurah Reef (nothing in particular)
Snowdale Springs (Rotate the Starting Positions and open up the middle)
Arid Dominion (top right and bottom left corners are kinda creep heavy)

Maybe with some bigger improvements:

-Brightwater Oasis
-Paradise Beach
-Pit Lord Crossing
-Rivulet
-Warfare Island
-Splitting River
-A Land Divided
-Coldreception
-Ancient Kingdom
-In Despair
-Outskirt Stroll
-Footprint of the Ancestors
-Forbidden Island
-Riverbend
-Skull Island
-Forgotten Sanctuary
-Smuggling Route
-Flooded Waters
-Silverwind Clearing
-The Cursed Salesman
-Winterstorm

Didnt make it:


Crimson Valley, The Consortium, Kingdom of Lordaeron, Frozen Summit, Fungus Explotion, Goldstorm, Goldwing Clan, Hills of Lordaeron, Lord of the Pit, Marsh of Lerna, Menethil Ponds, Ogres in the North, Picaroons, Pillars of Honor, Seashore, Ainas, Rivertown, Sunken Courts, Warrior Shrine, Void Ridge, southshore, Stonelake, Stratholme, Howling Pass, Lost Grimoire, Ruins of Eldara, Thunder Waterfalls, Upstream, Velren, Violet Outpost, Aridity, glowing Doom, Mars Lighthouse, Ocean Beyond, Aetheium, Bloody Mystinarry, Crimson Valley, Deserts Edge, Forgotten Straits, Logging Camp, Mystic Forest, Ogrimmar Tunnels, Aesopian Waterway, The Screaming River, Torn World, Two Small Places, Uthers Slumber, Garden of Golems, Northern Lands, Temple of alisazh, Alabasteroute, Arcane Temple, Beneath the snowline, Bleak Prospects, Bloowing Peninsula, Capital Island, Dawing Fall, Dead Rivers, Dragon Rage, Drakkari Domination, Failed Exploriation, Flood Waves, Flooded Waters, Borders of Dalaran, Coral Reef, Dire Waters, Frostspring Thicket, Garden of Illypsos, Iceland River, Luschwater Oasis, Marauder village, Mercenary Retreat, Mountain Pass, Ruins of the Mist, Shinning Waters, Stockades, Stormheim, Stranglehorn, Hidden Shrine, Jade Isle, The Sanctum, Trapper Island, Zangamarch, Ubongo, blue Eye forest, Waldwohnheim, Deamonhills, Green Dale, coldfinger Island, Northwatch Hold, Reforged Meadows, River Canyon, Deathriver, Water Temple, Harvest of sorrow, icyresistance, ryurkya



 
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Joining discussion:

I have a couples ideas:

1- make a list of the 5 top maps but not repeat mapper, I mean have like a list of 5 1v1 Mr.Henci maps (just as example) seems a bit boring, so it will be ideal take the best 1v1 map of every mapper and then filter from there. IMO
2- try to have enviroment diversity: a top 5 maps and all Ashenvale would also be boring.
3- Balance must be more important than enviroment. Maps should be perfect balanced, with aceptable enviroment, the fun always comes from the gameplay. IMO
4- maps should come from active users, so we (as comunity) can improve them or ask the user to improve them, and the user can update it.
5- agree to no use my old maps (Drakkari domination, Marsh of Lerna, Ruins of Eldara, Dragon Rage... bla bla bla and so on) Auto vetoing those too.

Friendly Vetoings IMO:

- Irresistible mind, that mapper is inactive since the first contest took place so there is no chance to improve his map.
- Vetoing Royal gardens, Ruins of Aszhara is much better. IMO
-Vetoing Arid Dominion, Mr.henci has like 8 1v1 much better maps to be played. The outland maps suffer of being pure red maps wich are very disliked, unless you use water clever. Plus, pure outland creeps never work unless you use more balanced ones as trolls and orges. In a top 12 melee maps an outland map would sadly fall in the last 12 place.
-Vetoing Crimson Valley, cut the center is not good in 95% of the cases in 1v1, Sister-she A.K.A Filmting, has like 10 1v1 better and not counting Northern Isles. The Consortium would be a better idea.
-Vetoing Silvermoon Forest @Meerel, Portals are very hated ( helps aerial, sometimes can come with ugly situations go in go back when battle, ), all your other maps would do better.
 
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IMO the best map right now is Ruins of Azshara (by @JaleVeliki).
It's both good-looking and well-balanced map, and it provides what ladder pool needs right now: it's reasonably big and has 2 expansion options availible early.


This has unfortunate consequense, however. Since it's a brown map, we cannot have another brown map in top 5.

Keeping that in mind, runnerups are:
Northfall Isles, Sen'jin's Hideout & Icecrown Gorge by @Mr.Henci
Uther's Slumber by @adamcg — very solid map
Brightwater Oasis by @mafe — this one does have some bright colors, so it's not considered brown
Northwatch Hold by Wayshan
Trophy Hunters & Shallow Grave by @Meerel
Upstream v0.3.0 & Starfish Village v0.7.2 by @Nudl9 — interesting maps, that require updates.
Logging Camp & Thawing Snow by @Knecht — innovative maps
Rivulet by @SayuriTenshi — nice and balanced map, but we have too many LS maps already
Smuggling Route by @Cigaro

The Consortium by @Keito / Filmting — I think it's red enogh to be not considered brown :p. Good big map.
The Glade by @Filmting / Keito — innovative map for 3 players.

In conclusion, top 5 community maps are:
#1 Ruins of Azshara
#2 Sen'jin's Hideout
#3 Uther's Slumber
#4 Trophy Hunters
#5 Reserved
Maps that I would like to see played as an experiment:
#1 Thawing Snow
#2 The Consortium
#3 The Glade
 
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The obvious pick is Ruins of Azshara, no discussion needed, it's gonna be on everyone's top 5. Even Blizz has shown interest in it. The other somewhat obvious pick would be Brightwater Oasis, played in several tournaments, already liked by players and casters, has a neat gimmick. We can argue about it, we can disagree with it, but that won't change the objectve truth :D So basically there's only 3 other maps needed.
I'm not really sure which to choose so I'll let the others do the job and will just comment on the lists that have been already proposed (blame my laziness or indecision).
- Greenwood Pass is nice. You can basically pick any of Henci's maps with a blindfold on and you won't choose poorly. My other Henci pick would be Senjin or Shurah though.
- Avoj has been my secret favorite map for a long time. It might need some tweaks here and there (unsure if bridges still desync) but I like it.
- Nudl's maps are very interesting in their layouts and bring fresh ideas.
- Goldport is nice but it might bring up old wounds
- might edit this post later, add more thoughts, add more detail to it

As for my maps, Logging Camp has some issues that I already discussed with RockingGolem, plus it's quite big for 1v1 as Remo said, might tweak it in the future. Thawing seems to always stir up controversy because it's a boat map but by removing the boats it would lose all its identity imo.

@WolfFarkas a mapmaker being inactive doesn't mean you can't make changes to it ;) It might even bring them back from the grave. But I agree that the maps should possibly come from active mapmakers.

EDIT:
Ok, so I waited till the very last moments before the deadline like always :D
I'll obviously leave out my maps from the list, but I'll just say that since the New Horizons Cup, where Thawing was widely played, it seemed the players and viewers enjoyed it. We've even seen a possible hint at some boat patch if I didn't misinterpret that post, which would hopefully solve most of the issues with boats. Anyways, boats might be just a novelty. And to comment on Logging camp as well, it surprised me how much play it got in the cup. It does have flaws though.

To continue in the circlejerk that Henci mentioned, here's my list:
- Ruins of Azshara
- Brightwater Oasis
- Senjin's Hideout
- I think the players would enjoy Rivulet a lot
- idk, Moonspark?

I basically agree with Henci's list :p
 
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Level 29
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The obvious pick is Ruins of Azshara, no discussion needed, it's gonna be on everyone's top 5. Even Blizz has shown interest in it. The other somewhat obvious pick would be Brightwater Oasis, played in several tournaments, already liked by players and casters, has a neat gimmick. We can argue about it, we can disagree with it, but that won't change the objectve truth :D So basically there's only 3 other maps needed.
I'm not really sure which to choose so I'll let the others do the job and will just comment on the lists that have been already proposed (blame my laziness or indecision).

- Greenwood Pass is nice. You can basically pick any of Henci's maps with a blindfold on and you won't choose poorly. My other Henci pick would be Senjin or Shurah though.
- Avoj has been my secret favorite map for a long time. It might need some tweaks here and there (unsure if bridges still desync) but I like it.
- Nudl's maps are very interesting in their layouts and bring fresh ideas.
- Goldport is nice but it might bring up old wounds
- might edit this post later, add more thoughts, add more detail to it

As for my maps, Logging Camp has some issues that I already discussed with RockingGolem, plus it's quite big for 1v1 as Remo said, might tweak it in the future. Thawing seems to always stir up controversy because it's a boat map but by removing the boats it would lose all its identity imo.

@WolfFarkas a mapmaker being inactive doesn't mean you can't make changes to it ;) It might even bring them back from the grave. But I agree that the maps should possibly come from active mapmakers.

@Knecht , I knew @MysteryMaze , the first things I learned of melee I learned of him, I tried to make him back to participate in the 2nd contest, in the 3rd,, in polls, I even asked him to be judge,, so I think with 99% it wont come back sadly

it may happen that we handle the maps, and maybe they will ask a modification, without the owner permison, we cant do that, the user should be active to do changes or be agree with changes in maps if is requested.

Provisory list from my part:
not a particular order of importance.


1-Brightwater Oasis best 1v1 map of mafe (won 2nd melee contest, won hive cup, was used in other tournaments), the random spawn is unique, terrainining unique, balance one of the best.
2- Ruins of Aszhara, best Jaleveliki 1v1 map, (won 2nd contest, won hive cup). mana fountains, rune of watchers, very brownish map, some players hate that, but even, is one of the best 1v1.
3- Moonspark, IMO, IMO, is the best map of Arrr, even with the blue water, neutral buildings positions is perfect, this maps has only 2 flaws. Dual tavern is also a nice asset.
4- Shallow grave of Meerel, IMO, is the best map of Meerel in terms of balance and very unique tile mix.
5- Icecrown Gorge of Mr.Henci, agree with Deserted. Expandings are interesting, plus the tavern path.
6-Jade Isles from Filmting / Keito: need fix on the red creep position and merc. camp, but except that it seems perfect, it has nice and bold pathings,loot needs to be updated a bit with power ups.
7-Upstreams from Nudl9: IMO, the best 1v1 of him
8- Logging camp from Knetch. I prefer land play than boats (seriusly I even dislike boats in the campaign when playing in hard level and being harrased, Also I started to dislike boats in AOE2, like uufff need to get my army to the boat, micro manage it, go unolad it)
IMO: I just like logging camp more than thawing snow. it will depend on the taste of the pro players, I also feel that WC3 is like Starcraft, just land and air, no water, ROC didnt have shipyards that came with TFT but mostly for the campaign games. and the shipyard was there as a melee asset to be used.
but if for a tournament somene ask boats maps I would shure recomend Jale map or Knetch map.
9- Rivulet of Sayuri Tenshi, after a lot of thinking, IMO, it needs merc. camps for perfection. but is very perfect. and this is my favorite of this author.


Friendly vetoings:
-Gold Port: it needs many improves: middle lacks trees for KOG, to much unbuildable tiles in center, dangerous AOW option in gob. merchants, green creeps at center golem level 6 with 1000 hp to near each, spell inmu, creeps in cliff not confortable to creep,.... Agree with Meerel, friendly veto.
-Uther Slumber, 1 mine very exposed, , many chances of aggro, many places to hide wisps, needs updates, agree with Meerel with veto.
 
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i like death road

There are many Death roads maps, is this what you are talking?

Death Road

is interesting but,sadly if is this, I have to say is no playable for a lot of reasons, creeps positions,gob merchants shape, base shape, waygates that will help air. I could go on...
and also I want to point is set to substandard. Only that is a big no, I dont know what happened with that map, but mods rated 1/5
 
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There are many Death roads maps, is this what you are talking?

Death Road

is interesting but,sadly if is this, I have to say is no playable for a lot of reasons, creeps positions,gob merchants shape, base shape, waygates that will help air. I could go on...
and also I want to point is set to substandard. Only that is a big no, I dont know what happened with that map, but mods rated 1/5

the one that skeletal burner or marksman will drop rune of rebirth. its same terrain as you linked but other version I think.
 
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My top 5 list (not particular order just my 5 maps recomendations), I am very open for open discussion, and change my top 5 as well

1- Ruins of aszhara of Jaleveliki (Barrens): for its balance, enviroment is very well terrained, with the water, the ruins theme, and the use of fountains in a safe way.

2-Senjin hideout of Mr.Henci, mafe, Granite Golem (Lordaeron Summer): the gob. merchants are in north, but expandings in south so both parts are important, midle is non convencional but attractive and wise. map can be played with the zepeling mine or not, wich is very good. not a forcefull thing. I s like Echo isles but with more optional play. The layout reminds me of half turtle rock in a good way.

3-Rivulet of Sayuri Tenshi (Lordaeron summer): the middle is cut in wise way ( I hate middle cut) but is a small cut, and with the map small there is a lot of manuver around the center to be done. This map favours the early combat due to its small size.

4- Rumble in the Jungle by Arrr and Meerel: or Avoj 2.0 first name. The map has Avoj 1.0 neutral buildings positions and shapes, but this has better map reading, it passed to mafe judging, the flaws were recently fixed. There are no bridges wich can be controversy. Avoj 1.0 was 2nd place in the 2nd melee contest, so I think this seems an interesting map to use (note I was waiting the updates to consider if include it or not in the list, like the critters for UD.

5- Blossoming Valley
(Underground-Barrens mix)
This is a map made by @Knecht and me. We focus in have a unique neutral buildings use, unique terraining, unique balanced creeps. We both put the best of us to make this aviable. And I am glad to recommend a new map of Knecht, and also I feel very honored to have been part of this co-work project.

I hope it can be worthy of being considered to be used.

Really hard to do a top 5, you end always being guilty of lefting a great mapper out the list.
I wanted to have The Consortium in my list,
,I would also like to have a map of Cigaro or a map of Nudl9, those are also great mappers.


6- If there is a room for a back up (if they dont like fountains, 1 mine expos maps, mines on islands, or maps with the center cut, or barrens mercs. The Consortium of Keito (Outland) as an improved TM version. The use of marketplaces is interesting, the terrain is outland but mixed with barrens is not a pure red map, thats very good. I played that map long a go when came out, it had 1-2 flaws that I disussed with others, it was updated then so, is very solid.

(I put Blossoming Valley because I think it has better enviroment than Logging camp,is smaller, no foutains that can create controversy, is not a boat map, boats are in the discuss of is interesting and fun but is balanced? so as a "conservative melee play", is the best map of @Knecht, Thawing Snow is a great boat map, but me since I am not pro player, when pro players veto boats, I low my head, do silence and say they have good reasons, I dont even dare to question why boats are veto).
 
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Level 21
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I get the point behind this, but to me this seems like a mappers circle jerk, where we boast about how good maps we make. Nonetheless, I get what you/we are trying to do and hopefully this thread will achieve what it tries to do. Here is my list, but I'm not a good melee player by any means, so take it with a grain of salt:

Ruins of Azshara LV - One of the best 1v1 maps both visually and gameplay wise.
Irresistible Mind - Another great 1v1 map with kinda unique, yet familiar looks.
Thawing Snow - We should include at least one boat map I guess, significant chunk of mapping community seems to like them and this map is very aesthetically pleasing.
MoonSpark v1.0 - Don't know about gameplay, but I f*cking love this map style.
Brightwater Oasis - Even though I'm not the biggest fan of the visuals on this map, it certainly deserves a spot on this list for its unique shop feature as well as very balanced gameplay.

As for a self boasting, Sen'jin's Hideout would be a probably best pick from my 1v1 maps, but I can't be a very objective when it comes to my own creations.
 
Level 29
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I get the point behind this, but to me this seems like a mappers circle jerk, where we boast about how good maps we make. Nonetheless, I get what you/we are trying to do and hopefully this thread will achieve what it tries to do. Here is my list, but I'm not a good melee player by any means, so take it with a grain of salt:

Ruins of Azshara LV - One of the best 1v1 maps both visually and gameplay wise.
Irresistible Mind - Another great 1v1 map with kinda unique, yet familiar looks.
Thawing Snow - We should include at least one boat map I guess, significant chunk of mapping community seems to like them and this map is very aesthetically pleasing.
MoonSpark v1.0 - Don't know about gameplay, but I f*cking love this map style.
Brightwater Oasis - Even though I'm not the biggest fan of the visuals on this map, it certainly deserves a spot on this list for its unique shop feature as well as very balanced gameplay.

As for a self boasting, Sen'jin's Hideout would be a probably best pick from my 1v1 maps, but I can't be a very objective when it comes to my own creations.

the idea is that mappers and players could make the top list of maps.

and well, I dont know if I should say this but I will say it anyway. I am aware that , here will be posted feedback of players about the maps soon.
 

mafe

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So yeah, as @WolfFarkas already hinted, I've asked several players from the Tak3rs New Horizons cup for feedback.
Of course, it's natural that they were mostly considering the maps that were played there. Also, sometimes they commented only on the few maps on the maps they actually played. So if they didnt mention other maps, I dont believe that this automatically means they preferred the New Horizons maps over those that were not present/they didnt play in the tournament.

Here's what they said:

Tak3r: He liked Thawing Snow a lot. But he thinks that Dreadlord fast expansion might be too easy, and that orcs were vetoing this map in the tournament against UD for this reason.

Syde: He liked Thawing Snow, Logging Camp, Brightwater Oasis and Northwatch Hold and would be glad to see them on ladder/tournaments.

SHEIK: He thinks that Nomad Isles and Crystal Kingdom , which were part of the w3arena mappool, are undeservedly forgottten and that he would like to play those again. Of the maps from the cup, he liked Logging Camp.

AjK: He liked Logging Camp and said "it's versatile and offers lots of space for players to adjust their game to the opponent".

goodgame_wolf: He said it would be nice to have new maps in the pool. However, the maps which he played (According to liquipedia, these were Thawing Snow and Logging Camp), he considere them imbalanced/abusable in their current state, but he would like to see them become balanced.

Bizarre: He was being very specific about some maps, so I'll try to summarize what he said.
  • Thawing Snow: Boats in their current state are a big no-no for him.
  • Ruins of Azshara: Could be ok without the fountains.
  • Logging Camp: Again, fountains are bad. The shop i weirdly placed and he didnt see any intuitive creeproutes. But he thought it was one of the better maps among those in the new horizons cup.
  • Brightwater Oasis: Creeps/creeproutes are bad for orc in particular.
  • Northwatch Hold: He didnt like the creeps either.
  • Senjin's Hideout: Islands are just not fun because of potential abuse with mass bats.
  • Udongo Mwekundu: Not enough creeps/options, which could lead to stale gameplay.
(My personal opinion on Bizarres feedback is that some this could be fixed easily, if the creators of the maps agree).

Further anonymous feedback: Suitable maps would be Brightwater Oasis, Ruins of Azshara, Sen'jin's Hideout (more antair for creeps would be good), Thawing Snow und Udongo Mwekundu. Senkins hideout also needs more antiair on creeps, and Northwatch Hold in its current hiveworkshop version has a bug where supposedly separate creepcamps can aggro together.

I will edit this post if more players respond.

I also believe that the feedback from the previous mapping contests should be worth considering, even though since then several maps have seen updates:
Melee Mapping Contest #1 - Results[$100 Prize Pool]
Melee Mapping Contest #2 - Results
Hive Workshop Cup Melee Mapping Contest - Results
 
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Level 29
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So yeah, as @WolfFarkas already hinted, I've asked several players from the Tak3rs New Horizons cup for feedback.
Of course, it's natural that they were mostly considering the maps that were played there. Also, sometimes they commented only on the few maps on the maps they actually played. So if they didnt mention other maps, I dont believe that this automatically means they preferred the New Horizons maps over those that were not present/they didnt play in the tournament.

Here's what they said:

Tak3r: He liked Thawing Snow a lot. But he thinks that Dreadlord fast expansion might be too easy, and that orcs were vetoing this map in the tournament against UD for this reason.

Syde: He liked Thawing Snow, Logging Camp, Brightwater Oasis and Northwatch Hold and would be glad to see them on ladder/tournaments.

SHEIK: He thinks that Nomad Isles and Crystal Kingdom , which were part of the w3arena mappool, are undeservedly forgottten and that he would like to play those again. Of the maps from the cup, he liked Logging Camp.

AjK: He liked Logging Camp and said "it's versatile and offers lots of space for players to adjust their game to the opponent".

goodgame_wolf: He said it would be nice to have new maps in the pool. However, the maps which he played (According to liquipedia, these were Thawing Snow and Logging Camp), he considere them imbalanced/abusable in their current state, but he would like to see them become balanced.

Bizarre: He was being very specific about some maps, so I'll try to summarize what he said.
  • Thawing Snow: Boats in their current state are a big no-no for him.
  • Ruins of Azshara: Could be ok without the fountains.
  • Logging Camp: Again, fountains are bad. The shop i weirdly placed and he didnt see any intuitive creeproutes.
  • Brightwater Oasis: Creeps/creeproutes are bad for orc in particular.
  • Northwatch Hold: He didnt like the creeps either.
  • Senjin's Hideout: Islands are just not fun because of potential abuse with mass bats.
  • Udongo Mwekundu: Not enough creeps/options, which could lead to stale gameplay.
(My personal opinion on Bizarres feedback is that some this could be fixed easily, if the creators of the maps agree).

Further anonymous feedback: Suitable maps would be Brightwater Oasis, Ruins of Azshara, Sen'jin's Hideout (more antair for creeps would be good), Thawing Snow und Udongo Mwekundu. Senkins hideout also needs more antiair on creeps, and Northwatch Hold in its current hiveworkshop version has a bug where supposedly separate creepcamps can aggro together.

I will edit this post if more players respond.

I also believe that the feedback from the previous mapping contests should be worth considering, even though since then several maps have seen updates:
Melee Mapping Contest #1 - Results[$100 Prize Pool]
Melee Mapping Contest #2 - Results
Hive Workshop Cup Melee Mapping Contest - Results

I am speechless, if you consider the feedback as a hole, everything gots a veto
and Cristal kingdom spawns both a mana or health fountain randomly... so if Ruins of Azshara could be ok without the fountains... Cristal kingdom is veto too. Also Cristal kingdom didnt have updates since 2011.

Is it posible to get feedback on others maps as well like: Rumble in the Jungle (Avoj 2.0), Rivulet, ?
 

mafe

Map Reviewer
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Messages
868
I almost forgot, but of course I want to leave my personal opinion here. I've also decided to exclude any maps of my own, including those were I think I helped making some major updates (this includes Thawing Snow and Senjins Hideout).

Given all of this, my list of the top 5 maps is as follows:
-Ruins of Azshara, no matter if with fountains or without.
-Rivulet.
-The Consortium.
-Northfall Isles.
-Logging Camp.

I think this list includes maps of very different "character" and levels of innovation.

Runners-Up:
-Scrimmage.
-Shallow Grave.
-Warfare Isle.
-Royal Gardens.
-Hillsbrad Creek.
-Blossoming Valley.
-Rumble in the Jungle.
-Death Road.


Please note that this is not the final list of recommended maps. It's just my personal opinion. I'll go through this thread over the next days and compile the "final" list based on the current overall opinion.
 
Level 29
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Messages
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I just downloaded Death road: 2013 version Death Road 1.2 - Warcraft 3 Maps - Epic War.com


upload_2020-5-10_17-6-16.png

visual blocking
upload_2020-5-10_17-12-9.png

more visual blocking

upload_2020-5-10_17-8-9.png

gaps
upload_2020-5-10_17-25-7.png

gaps that can be exploided to hide units. and wisp scouts

upload_2020-5-10_17-9-59.png

more gaps

upload_2020-5-10_17-14-30.png

this creep the 3 have shadow meld, so if you went for creep the center or hack the enemy, you wont see them in night

upload_2020-5-10_17-16-59.png

I dont think this is an standard green creep for a green.

upload_2020-5-10_17-20-13.png

this loot, staff of silence is a permanent L6, considering one player gets it and the other not, can be huge,
silence the enemy is not casting spells, also you can combo with the dark ranger silence,so twice silence.

upload_2020-5-10_17-24-19.png

1 creeping route feels to be broken, it goes from 7 to 18 and 19? I dont see how does it work?
I can quote Remo saying creeping routes are a key factor in game.

and bligth terrain is free undead regeneration, no ladder map use that.

and waygates conecting opositte mines is just to unfair to air units, you can be in your expo and bat rush the enemy expo, and go back safe,
I can search the quotes of Wtii and Nudl9 against such waygates, are a big no, the waygates in meerel map are more wise, still is controversy.



I would like to point 2 things. Respectfully no offense to the autor wich I think did a very interesting neutral building positions, or the friends of the map or the supporters of the author or whatever, but lets consider the map with the same hard-review like jale map or logging camp map had:

1-@mafe, I felt surprised you put dead road as a runner up, when I think, it needs updates, and there are many better runner ups imo.
2- veto to death road.


Crystal Kingdom: I like this maps, but I think in it needs 2-3 improves.

it is interesting, I like some concepts like the wall, the a cuple the path, I think it needs some updates that will improve the gameplay experience:
1: the shop its level 19 almost a red, it should be more easy. IMO easy fix
upload_2020-5-10_18-16-13.png


There is a reason why Terenas stand has fake bridges, and why Avoj 2.0 recently came out with no bridges, you can have a battle in that bridge, and have a ko situation. easy fix
upload_2020-5-10_18-24-57.png


No AOW, is not author fault, probably AOW didnt existed in 2010. but NE these days complain , it needs at least 1 orange with 1 AOW spot.

upload_2020-5-10_18-31-0.png

a) some creep spots dont have wood for KOG play. center creeps (orange) and fountains.

b) If you see the doodads, there are no line of sigth blockers, so you can see the other side of the doodad wall, thats why wood is used for creeps wall,, so is like open play, also foutain areas, is a huge open area. Is like Amazonia scouting,
and also gob labs have rune of the wacher, so I think this map needs more scouting limits, is very open play.

c) random fountains: is interesting the concept that you have to scout the fountain to adapt your play, but, for a larger audience, even fixed fountains are getting veto, I like the concept but , is something that conservative melee. For random buildings is better to play around with mercenary camps. or markeplaces that are more balanced. But I like the concept.

again I think is a nice map,, but needs improves in the shop, limit scouting and more trees for the KOG.

 
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Level 14
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Messages
140
Great lists so far, some cool new and old maps in one place, awesome idea.

These seem safe, polished, and interesting:

- Logging Camp
- Thawing Snow
- Brightwater Oasis
- Silverwing Clearing
- Hillsbrad Creek - of course, already on ladder 2v2, but nice for 1v1 as well
- Rivulet

--------

- Greenwood pass - is nice and pretty, but maybe needs unbuildable terrain on bridges, less dead ends, and some wider/more paths?
- Sen'Jin Hideout - I would make corners more interesting and usable or creeping more interesting
- MoonSpark - very aggressive and rushy, but pretty and interesting map
- Northfall Isles - seems alright

...And many more new maps I can find to improve...

- Northwatch Hold - will be better when both spawn sides are more equal for both players, AOW/Tree creeping is enabled, creep routes are worked on and the map terrain is made fair for both players. For now, I think it doesn't go into the same category as the other polished maps that are mentioned.

- - - - - - - - -

Ruins of Azshara is updated to now have two clear versions:
1) LV version
2) with Mana Fountains for enthusiasts

Royal Gardens I wouldn't put on this Spring list for now, as it needs more testing and work to be even more balanced, but the version that is on Hive is okay to test I guess :)
 
Level 29
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Great lists so far, some cool new and old maps in one place, awesome idea.

These seem safe, polished, and interesting:

- Logging Camp
- Thawing Snow
- Brightwater Oasis
- Silverwing Clearing
- Hillsbrad Creek - of course, already on ladder 2v2, but nice for 1v1 as well
- Rivulet

--------

- Greenwood pass - is nice and pretty, but maybe needs unbuildable terrain on bridges, less dead ends, and some wider/more paths?
- Sen'Jin Hideout - I would make corners more interesting and usable or creeping more interesting
- MoonSpark - very aggressive and rushy, but pretty and interesting map
- Northfall Isles - seems alright

...And many more new maps I can find to improve...

- Northwatch Hold - will be better when both spawn sides are more equal for both players, AOW/Tree creeping is enabled, creep routes are worked on and the map terrain is made fair for both players. For now, I think it doesn't go into the same category as the other polished maps that are mentioned.
- - - - - - - - -

Ruins of Azshara is updated to now have two clear versions:
1) LV version
2) with Mana Fountains for enthusiasts

Royal Gardens I wouldn't put on this Spring list for now, as it needs more testing and work to be even more balanced, but the version that is on Hive is okay to test I guess :)

Agree with you about Northwach hold, and also agree with Meerel post.
I also think minimap reading is not equal at the moment.
but is a nice enviroment theme and the map has potential, it can be improved a lot IMO wich is good.
 
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mafe

Map Reviewer
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Messages
868
Is it posible to get feedback on others maps as well like: Rumble in the Jungle (Avoj 2.0), Rivulet, ?
In an ideal world yes, but my impression is that pros most of the time dont spend time on testing new maps unless they are played in a tournament.
@mafe Would be cool if you could post more of the players' insights if they were more specific about some stuff (be it in DM, discord or some other post)
I'll check again, but I dont think there was much else other than what I posted here. If I find something, I'll use discord/the thread of the respective map..
1-@mafe, I felt surprised you put dead road as a runner up, when I think, it needs updates, and there are many better runner ups imo.
I guess that's true, but it's also a map with a unique idea which is otherwise also quite good otherwise. I wanted to mention 1-2 more experimental, but still playable, maps among the runners-up. Just to avoid any misunderstanding, being among the runners-up means that I don't want these maps to be on the list, and not all of them are equal.
 

mafe

Map Reviewer
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Messages
868
Ok, it's time for the list. Basically, I'm trying to summarize which maps have found the most approval overall. It's impossible to please everyone, but this isnt really necessary anyway, given that even some maps in the current competitive mappool are far from uncontroversial.

I think the clearest choice is Ruins of Azshara. Almost everyone who posted here was including it. While the fountains might put off some people (they also are frowned upon by many pros), there is now a version without fountains available, so if necessary, tournament organizers can pick the version which suits them the most.

Beyond that, it didnt seem to be that clear to me. There were several maps that were chosen multiple times: Thawing Snow, Senjins Hideout, Brightwater Oasis, Rivulet and Logging Camp, Moonspark.

To be objective, I tried to calculate an "approval score" for the maps in two different ways. The general idea was to compare the number of picks the map actually received with the number of picks it "could" potentially receive.

First, I counted all the picks from the people who I know as melee mapmakers. The reason to consider this group of people was the assumption that they knew "every" map, i.e. if they didnt pick a map, it wasnt for a lack of awareness about the map, but because they genuinely didnt consider it good enough. However, as far as I could tell, noone picked one of their own maps. So to account for this, the "potential" votes for a map do not include the person(s) who created this map. The score was as follows:

Ruins of Azshara: 7/7 = 100%
Thawing Snow: 4/6 = 67%
Senjins Hideout: 4/6 = 67%
Brightwater Oasis: 3/7 = 43%
Rivulet: 4/8 = 50%
Logging Camp: 1/7 = 14%
Moonspark: 2/8 = 25%.

Alternatively, I considered all of the feedback that was available to me: In addition to the picks from the mapmakers, this included the feedback from the pro players (as posted in my posts earlier) and the reviews of the judges from the melee mapping contest that I consider trustworthy and skilled people in the wc3 melee scene (Keito, Hightac, Remo). To consider the "potential" votes a map could receive from pros, I assumed that the maps that were not played in the New Horizons cup were unkown to pros, so they couldnt realistically be expect to pick them. In the same manner, a map only received a "potential" vote from a contest review if it was part of that contest. And it only received an actual vote from a contest review, if Keito/Hightac/Remo had it in the top5 of their reviews. Long story short, here are the scores:

Ruins of Azshara: 9/15 = 60%
Thawing Snow: 7/14 = 50%
Senjins Hideout: 4/12 = 33%
Brightwater Oasis: 5/15 = 33%
Rivulet: 5/9 = 56%
Logging Camp: 5/15 = 33%
Moonspark: 2/9 = 22%

Was does all of this mean? Well, indeed Ruins of Azshara is confirmed as the clear first choice. Going purely by this score, the next two maps that stand out are Thawing Snow and Rivulet. After that, the differences are relatively small, and while Snejins Hideout and Brightwater Oasis have the slightly higher scores than Logging camp, the latter was quite well received by the players at the new Horizons Cup.

I know I said we should aim for a list of 5 maps, but in the light of this, I suggest to settle for the following list, containing 6 maps:
Ruins of Azshara LV
Thawing Snow
Rivulet
Sen'jin's Hideout
Brightwater Oasis
Logging Camp

I hope that I made no miscounts and that the idea behind the scores is understandable. Should there be a significant amount of feedback arriving in the future, it is of course possible to make changes to this list. But for now, do you agree that this is list is a fair representation of the over opinions and feedback, or do you think that I overlooked something?
 
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Ok, it's time for the list. Basically, I'm trying to summarize which maps have found the most approval overall. It's impossible to please everyone, but this isnt really necessary anyway, given that even some maps in the current competitive mappool are far from uncontroversial.

I think the clearest choice is Ruins of Azshara. Almost everyone who posted here was including it. While the fountains might put off some people (they also are frowned upon by many pros), there is now a version without fountains available, so if necessary, tournament organizers can pick the version which suits them the most.

Beyond that, it didnt seem to be that clear to me. There were several maps that were chosen multiple times: Thawing Snow, Senjins Hideout, Brightwater Oasis, Rivulet and Logging Camp, Moonspark.

To be objective, I tried to calculate an "approval score" for the maps in two different ways. The general idea was to compare the number of picks the map actually received with the number of picks it "could" potentially receive.

First, I counted all the picks from the people who I know as melee mapmakers. The reason to consider this group of people was the assumption that they knew "every" map, i.e. if they didnt pick a map, it wasnt for a lack of awareness about the map, but because they genuinely didnt consider it good enough. However, as far as I could tell, noone picked one of their own maps. So to account for this, the "potential" votes for a map do not include the person(s) who created this map. The score was as follows:

Ruins of Azshara: 7/7 = 100%
Thawing Snow: 4/6 = 67%
Senjins Hideout: 4/6 = 67%
Brightwater Oasis: 3/7 = 43%
Rivulet: 4/8 = 50%
Logging Camp: 1/7 = 14%
Moonspark: 2/8 = 25%.

Alternatively, I considered all of the feedback that was available to me: In addition to the picks from the mapmakers, this included the feedback from the pro players (as posted in my posts earlier) and the reviews of the judges from the melee mapping contest that I consider trustworthy and skilled people in the wc3 melee scene (Keito, Hightac, Remo). To consider the "potential" votes a map could receive from pros, I assumed that the maps that were not played in the New Horizons cup were unkown to pros, so they couldnt realistically be expect to pick them. In the same manner, a map only received a "potential" vote from a contest review if it was part of that contest. And it only received an actual vote from a contest review, if Keito/Hightac/Remo had it in the top5 of their reviews. Long story short, here are the scores:

Ruins of Azshara: 9/15 = 60%
Thawing Snow: 7/14 = 50%
Senjins Hideout: 4/12 = 33%
Brightwater Oasis: 5/15 = 33%
Rivulet: 5/9 = 56%
Logging Camp: 5/15 = 33%
Moonspark: 2/9 = 22%

Was does all of this mean? Well, indeed Ruins of Azshara is confirmed as the clear first choice. Going purely by this score, the next two maps that stand out are Thawing Snow and Rivulet. After that, the differences are relatively small, and while Snejins Hideout and Brightwater Oasis have the slightly higher scores than Logging camp, the latter was quite well received by the players at the new Horizons Cup.

I know I said we should aim for a list of 5 maps, but in the light of this, I suggest to settle for the following list, containing 6 maps:
Ruins of Azshara LV
Thawing Snow
Rivulet
Sen'jin's Hideout
Brightwater Oasis
Logging Camp

I hope that I made no miscounts and that the idea behind the scores is understandable. Should there be a significant amount of feedback arriving in the future, it is of course possible to make changes to this list. But for now, do you agree that this is list is a fair representation of the over opinions and feedback, or do you think that I overlooked something?

What ever the maths are, it seems a bit sad that you @mafe and @Knecht are getting 2 maps in the list, while many mappers are basically excluded from the list, from potentially being used in tournaments and get feedback, see replays, to improve their maps and melee carreer.

By removing Thawing snow and Brigthwater Oasis, you two still have 1 map, Logging camp and Seijing Hideout.

and there could be room for as example: 1 map of @Arrr and 1 map of @Meerel, or even just 1 map made by boths. Rumble in the jungle (Avoj 2.0) I think those two mappers deserve to be included even if they dont win by being popular in the top 5 of nobody.

I was hopping for a more comunal friendly list, being discussed, that will benefit the mayor amount of mappers rather than just a cold numbers method.

thats the only thing I think it can be improved IMO, the top 6 of maps, the maps are very good, regarding the maps.
but please dont offend of my comment, ,,I dont wish to cause problems.
 
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Level 6
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I would like to partially agree with @WolfFarkas: list should be more inclusive.
But I have to point out that it should include not a variety of mapmakers, but a variaty of their ideas.
It's not the same thing.

Edit: Death Road. Would it even be approved right now? With all those pathing issues and BLIGHT as decoration?
 
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Level 29
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I would like to partially agree with @WolfFarkas: list should be more inclusive.
1-But I have to point out that it should include not a variety of mapmakers, but a variaty of their ideas.
It's not the same thing.

2-Edit: Death Road. Would it even be approved right now? With all those pathing issues and BLIGHT as decoration?

1- boths objetives can be achieved.

I desagree of the focus in maps and not in active map makers willing to work their carreer. Is like I care the eggs and but I dont care to feed the chiken that put the eggs.

a map with no map mapper active it will remain unbalanced if it has unbalance issues.
if this X map mapmaker currently is active, he cares for his career doing balanced melee, he wants to update maps, it would be nice to help it with high level feedback (plays)

but instead temple field was chosen to be played and feedbacked, Cristal Kingdom nostalgia but has 3 mayor issues that need fix since 2011,or irresistible mind has been recomended here, but those mappers are inactive, since 1-2-3 years. and we cant hack hiveworkshop accounts to update those maps.


2- they are easy to fix, but in the current state, nop.
 
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mafe

Map Reviewer
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Messages
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Well, I can understand you point, but I just think it would not benefit the general idea of this topic.

As you can see from my opening post and the title, the purpose of this thread was not to find the best mapmakers or give the mapmakers some public recognition. Instead, the purpose was to help to make new nonstandard given a chance in ladders/tournaments. As such I stand by the point that the list should include the best maps, irrespective of who created them.

To out it bluntly: Noone outside our small circle cares who created a map. For tournaments, all that matters is how good the map is.

You can look at some of the recent tournaments with special mappools. Several of them had multiple maps created by the same person:
Ugri Challenge 2on2 (Disclaimer: I helped to find the mappool, but I suggested maybe 15-20 maps for this tournament)
Warcraft3.info League - Season 1
Hi2Chaco League Season 3 - Liquipedia Warcraft Wiki (Mappool decided by public poll with rather small participation)
New Horizons Cup 1

I believe that chances for nonstandard (1v1) maps to be included in tournaments are small enough already. Therefore my opinion is that we should make anything else a secondary objective to this greater goal.

Yes, I'm aware that it is "easy" for me to talk this way because one of my maps (+2 where I also contributed something directly) is on the list. I'm sorry for all of the dedicated mapmakers whose maps didnt make the list.

I have no idea yet if the list will be success, or be completely ignored. But just because a map isnt on the list doesnt automatically mean that it is ineligible for tournaments. Everyone who organizes a tournament is free to pick the maps he likes, and you are free to suggest other maps to them anyway.


One more thing: I wanted to players to give openminded feedback, in particular to include any map that they thought was good no matter where the ap comes from. When I contacted the players, I did so with the following message:

"Hey XXX,

I'm part of the mapmaking community. Remo recently encouraged us to create a list of good new melee maps, with the goal that some of them will be used in future tournaments or ladders such as w3champions.

For this, we would like to have the feedback of pro wc3 players. Since you played in Tak3rs New Horizons tournament, do you think that any of the maps played there, or any other new maps that you know, have what it takes to be used for competitive wc3? It would be great if you could tell us if you want to see new maps in the future, and if yes, which maps in particular you can recommend. You can send any feedback to me directly or even better, join us in our mapmakers discord and leave it there."

Only after a specific map was mentioned by a player himself first, I started to ask about specific feedback for these. If players came up with old maps, then it is not because I made I made any "choices". Ultimately, the players will decide about the success of a map, that's why I think if we want maps to be successful, we should try to think from their perspective.
 
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Level 12
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Messages
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Certainly have something to say about the choosen maps that should be considered. I dont want them to be replaced or anything. the voting was fair and i think mafe put some work into it which should be
appreciated.

I looked at all the maps in the editor and played on them vs AI since i dont know many people to play against. I was 55% orc Player back in the days and played esl cups with Clan Demonknights [DK]. thats not particular good but still to give you guys some perspectiv. I know alot of you mappers dont even play Warcraft so i like to mention it.
Playing vs AI still gives me everything i need to know. I look for readability of the terrain, creep composition and route, item drops, size of the map, size of open space. A really important aspect for me will always be how i feel while playing on those maps. Do i feel comfortable, lonely, lost? i think that should be considered, it makes players decide if they want to play again or not.
Lordaeron Summer Tileset is the most used because it gives that comfortable feeling no matter how the layout might be.

I really hope you guys put some equal effort into putting your list together. Looking at some pics on Hive is not what i expect here.

Since some maps were allready used in the new horizon cup the votes are obviously a bit biased towards those. i dont know who decided what was used on horizon but in some cases that was certainly the wrong choice sorry.
Same with adding Concealed Hill to Ladder which is absolutly a bad map for orc. i dont understand how that was totally dismissed or never considered.
We always search for the most standard map giving every race what they want but somehow no one noticed or cared when there was finally an opportunity to get some on ladder. anyways...

Wolffarkas mentioned including maps from every mapmaker which i have to disagree, its not about giving everyone a spot, its about quality work. Just like women quotas, if there is a better more qualified men to do the job why should the woman get it? doesnt make sense to me.

anyways i will give some more feedback below:

Ruins of Azshara LV
- Well yea solid standard map, nice creep layout and items, nice expansion and shop positions, well done textures in combination with dark water which makes it very readable for the player. It could use a better combination of narrow chokes and open space, its kinda allways the same combination. Doesnt mean its bad, just the characteristic of the map.

Thawing Snow
- Difficult to say really, i certainly like the idea and the execution but i think its higly abusable for Undead. You have save creepcamps behind your base which are not harasable for orc, after creeping those you buy a boat and creep the bears underneath, ship across, creep the bears and push with lvl 3 dk directly into the base which would certainly be insanely imbalanced. I think human could do that aswell with milita creeping.
But thats not the only thing, i dislike the trees infront of the expansion, it just feels so clunky building there and for the attacker aswell. It surpasses the standard size for a 1v1 map (96x96) by alot (105x116) which i felt while playing it. This might lead to stale creepfests where both players creep their side of the map and thats it.
The Shop creepspot should be redesigned giving the creeps more space. its too narrow and feels off. A Trollpriest should never carry the main item since he can easily be killed with blademaster. And its a LVL 3 charged item, which drops the strongest items in the game. The expansion should drop a lvl 3 perma item, lvl 2 seems too low.
Overall the Texturing and readability is nice. i always knew where i was while playing.

Sen'jin's Hideout
- i would like to take my suggested changes back (too many creeps top right corner). I consider this better than Azshara. It has some really nice creeplayout and creep composition, even tho some are really strong but players can figure that out. nice texturing and readability. lvl 2 charged item at the expansion is smart.

Brightwater Oasis
- oh well, dont be offended mafe but the texturing and doodad work really is questionable to put it mildly . overall the creeps are too strong at low lvls, i had a hard time finding a save creeproute without loosing half my units hp or more. the expansion is really far away, rdm neutral buildings will put players off, no question. i mean its a nice idea but not for standard ladder. The mapsize, creepdistance, area spacing, rush distance etc. are fine. overall i had the feeling that the map wasnt really finished.

Logging Camp
- not sure why so many people seem to like it. i just point out some things i noticed.
the map feels gigantic, even tho its 'just' 104x104. i really felt lost, it gave me an uncomfortable feeling. its littered with orange creepspots for some reason. 16 orange creepspots are just too many sorry. Adding more creeps to a map just so areas wouldn't feel empty without them is not a good way making a map.

the texturing is solid but uninspiring, everything looks the same. Areas should always vary in texturing or colors used to give players some direction. the creepspots are insanly far appart, i dont understand when the treebridge feature should ever be used. no race plays catas in any strat and they wont build them just to kick those trees over.

The border design is insulting actually.

Overall i think it shouldnt be considered at all and it only got here because it was somehow used in the new horizon cup. its not standard, its not high quality.
 
Level 17
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Messages
332
Hi guys,

I'm happy to inform everyone that I've saved a bit of money for sponsoring another cup – a small one, however. It will take place tommorow, June 1.
Here it is on challonge (anyone can sign up!) and on Liquidpedia.

Recalling my experience from Hive Workshop Cup, I realised that I don't have the wherewithal to organise a large event yet. So all of the preparations for this one were rather austere. That's why all five maps in the map pool are from Hive cup melee mapping contest, in the form in which they appeared in October 2019. I'd love to have hosted a new selection of maps, but as I said, sadly this require way more effort than I could spare right now.

adamcg, Anomines, JaleVeliki, Wayshan and mafe look out for your maps!!
 
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