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Sen'jin's Hideout

Submitted by Granite_Golem, mafe, Mr.Henci
This bundle is marked as approved. It works and satisfies the submission rules.
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After Thrall and the Darkspear trolls had abandoned the Lost Isles, there was nobody remaining to claim their treasures. Are you brave enough to take them all?

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Sen'jin's Hideout is a 2 player melee map, suitable for 1v1

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Version 1
[2018-06-08]

  • Map uploaded

Version 1.1
[2018-06-17]

  • The pathing in southeastern parts of the map has been improved
  • More trees added to the map
  • Creep camps have been adjusted to encourage early battles in the middle
Version 1.4
[2019-05-24]
  • Item drops have been adjusted
  • Cleared up some trees in the main base to accommodate more building space
  • Some creep camps have been balanced
  • Minor graphical adjustments
Version 1.6
[2019-10-16]
  • Balance changes made by @mafe & @Granite_Golem:
    • Most of the creeps were adjusted to W3 ladder standard
    • Added new creep spot
    • Item drops were balanced
    • Added new gold mine on the southwestern island
    • Removed several trees at various locations in order to widen some paths and chokepoints
    • Added critters
Version 2.1
[2019-05-24]



    • Map name changed from Lost Isles to Sen'jin's Hideout
    • Main bases were moved closer together
    • Shipyard was removed from the map
    • Marketplace was added
    • Minor graphical improvements
    • Removed rain
    • The fog effect was toned down
    • Added easter eggs
Version 2.2
[2020-02-11]
  • Hotfix for Reforged graphics
Version 2.3
[2020-03-20]
  • Minor terrain adjustments
  • The map has been optimized with Reforged World Editor

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My take on the War3 Demo Campaign Lost Isles theme. The only thing which I missed are the Darkspear trolls as Neutral Hostiles, but still I think it resembles it quite nicely.

Have any suggestion? Please write a comment. I am opened to any ideas. Have a nice day!


This map was played in Hi2Chaco League
Previews
Contents

Sen'jin's Hideout (Map)

Reviews
mafe
I've only played the Demo campaign once and it is only vaguely in the back of mind, so I cant really comment on whether you hit the theme. Is it hidden somewhere in the default installation or to I have to download it from somwhere? Sure enough there...
Knecht
Visually pleasing, reminiscent of the demo campaign, barrens rocks merge well with loarderon grass. I love when two different tilesets work together like in this case. All the little waterfalls on the side of the isle are a neat little detail. I won't...
Alexen
The map seems balanced in resources. Both players need to walk the same distance in order to access the additional Gold mines. Neutral Buildings are well placed. The map is done well and is enjoyable for a 1vs1. Although, what you should consider...
deepstrasz
Build space is a bit thin. Many Neutral hostile units don't start with full mana. Approved.
  1. mafe

    mafe

    Map Reviewer

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    I've only played the Demo campaign once and it is only vaguely in the back of mind, so I cant really comment on whether you hit the theme. Is it hidden somewhere in the default installation or to I have to download it from somwhere? Sure enough there wasnt Tavern in there :p
    Anyway, as a map on its own it is of course very good, as I would have expected from you. I also like the visual style, everything looks alive but nothing is too distracting. As you have asked for suggestions:
    -Some paths/chokes in the southwest quarter of the map are very narrow. Bad for melee units. I dont think orcs can win a fight vs talons there.
    -The main bases could benefit from a little more space for buildings. The number of trees is probably just enough, but to be safe I would add a few more in each base.
    -Right now, most green camps are in the middle but few near the sides of the map, while for orange/red camps it is the other way around. I would maybe swap one set of each of those so that you also have the option to take a small green camp in a safe location, and that there are more valuable creep camps to fight for in the central areas of the map.
     
  2. Mr.Henci

    Mr.Henci

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    Good points. I will try to rework southeast area, since in my test runs it wasn't really a problem but looking at it now, it can definitely be a hassle. Thanks for pointing that out.

    You should have it in your custom campaigns tab by default, but it's voiceless. Good news however, @Kostyarik made a version w/ voice overs which you can download here: Exodus of the Horde.

    Let's just say that pandarens see business in every corner of the world :D
     
  3. Knecht

    Knecht

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    Visually pleasing, reminiscent of the demo campaign, barrens rocks merge well with loarderon grass. I love when two different tilesets work together like in this case. All the little waterfalls on the side of the isle are a neat little detail. I won't say much about the general balance since mafe said pretty much everything. There's quite a lot of chokepoints in there I must say.

    What I will talk about though is the shipyard, as I'm a boat connoisseur myself :cgrin: I must say, ever since Thawing Snow I studied every aspect of boats in w3, every single "bug" that might come with them. That being said, here are my thoughts on the shipyard itself.

    The shipyard on this map has little use other than "Oh, the level 9 lizard splash attack killed my zeppelin, what now" on this map. More so, you can get the boats only in late game as you need a zeppelin/flying unit and time as the shipyard is in the far corner of the map. As you persumably already have a zeppelin by the time you can get a boat, there's almost no point in buying a boat. The only other use for the boat might be its speed as it is faster than many ground units. Let's take steam tanks as an example, they benefit the boats the most on this map. A blitzkrieg like this would steamroll the enemy expo, though you'd need a battalion of ships as one can carry only two steam tanks. However, you put a lord.summer merc camp in here too, which gives both players the ability to ensnare (there's the mud golem with slow too, as slow is the only one of two movement impairing magic abilities that can be cast on boats, the other being farseer's earthquake). Unlike zeppelins, the boats can be surrounded - therefore it renders the boats even more useless here. I don't know whether you made the two choke points for boats intentionally as there is no other way than through the green murloc camp with ensnare (I must say it spices up the boat game on this map :cgrin:)

    The problem with boats is, that the map must submit to them for them to work. This however isn't a boat map so you should not submit to the boats. I'm sorry for my rant, I could write more on the possible use of boats on this map and how it might work but I won't as this shouldn't be a boat map. I'm not saying you should remove the shipyard, only that it won't see much play imo. Boats are pretty boring in w3 after all and the only use for them is to be a gimmick that rarely works.

    I quite like this map. :cgrin:
     
  4. Mr.Henci

    Mr.Henci

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    Hey @Knecht nice to see you are still around!

    Thanks! Yeah, I will try to fix it my next update.

    This is the sole reason for the shipyard. During my playtesting, I went on to buy zeppelin and went to the Loot Isle. However, my opponent spotted it and killed my zeppelin w/ gargs, hence I ended up on this Isle without Scroll and a way to get out honestly, since even zeppelin was on cooldown. 2nd Goblin Lab didn't feel right, so I opted for Shipyard while I also limited ship usefulness.
     
  5. Alexen

    Alexen

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    The map seems balanced in resources.
    Both players need to walk the same distance
    in order to access the additional Gold mines.

    Neutral Buildings are well placed.

    The map is done well and is enjoyable for a 1vs1.

    Although, what you should consider changing is where that
    goblin shipyard is placed. Make a passable way to it instead of having to get a
    goblin zeppelin to reach it.

    Overall, it deserves a 4/5 from me, vote for approval.
     
  6. Mr.Henci

    Mr.Henci

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    Thanks

    The only reason for shipyard on this map is to get away from the loot island if your zeppelin is destroyed. If I would place it elsewhere, it would have no reason to be on this map, since zeppelin is already there.
     
  7. Alexen

    Alexen

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    Aha. Understood. Anyway, don't worry. That was only a personal suggestion. The map is nice overall. It should get approved. :)
     
  8. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Build space is a bit thin.
    Many Neutral hostile units don't start with full mana.

    Approved.
     
  9. Mr.Henci

    Mr.Henci

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    Actually, I went throug some Blizz maps and found out, that 0 starting mana is an intentional part of melee maps. When you set 200 creep agro (camp), WE will automatically set the units mana to 0. I guess @mafe could share his knowledge on this issue.

    Thanks for the approval.
     
  10. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Interesting. Maybe, it was intended all along for some sort of balance reasons although I don't see it fair when heroes come out of the Tavern or Altars with full mana (unless revived). Spell caster units don't, but they are trained later anyway.
     
  11. mafe

    mafe

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    Creep mana is something I'm not sure about. I thought that it was set to 0 on most maps, but when I checked a few weeks (on some randomly chosen maps and creeps), I wasnt able to confirm this and all creeps had full mana. However, I am 100% there was an issue of a pro player complaining that the orge mage on the goblin shop on LR was starting with less mana than the one on the right (or vice versa). I can and probably will invest some further time into this matter, because I'm still curious myself.

    As another thing in tha back of my mind about some creep not starting with full mana, I think the lvl 5 rogue wizard (or whatever his exact name is) doesnt use lightning shield on some maps early on, which iirc due to starting with no mana and intended to be a BUFF to the creep because the lightning shield could be used to speed up creeping. Feel free to rmind me again in a few days if I havent posted anything further.
    Another thing I have to checked. I never noticed this behavior, but then again I only learned about these creep-mana issue a few months back.
     
  12. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    Nice map!


    1) The orange creep level 15, the gigant tortoise level 17 loots a permanent level 4.
    The Orgre lord level 7 of the red creep level 21 defending the goldmine in the rigth up corner loots also loots a permanent level 4

    I think a permanent level 4 for a level 15 creep is a bit to much, permanent level 3 or charged level 3 seems more ok.
    Or increase the creep level to 17 or more ( I think this is the best option).

    I think level 4 items are for creeps level 17-22 aprox
    while level 3 items are for 14-18 aprox
    And I always consider charged items < than permanent items

    2) Agree that base is small, I would remove the wood in front of the starting location near those barrens columns to have more space, you can alwasy expand the land area passing the goldmine to the sea, have more terrain = to have more wood.

    3) Agree that the shipyard doesn´t have a strategic role. For a safe return I would put another goblin lab.

    rating 4/5


    "When you set 200 creep agro (camp), WE will automatically set the units mana to 0."

    Yep, thats why I put in camp mode one unit at time and not a group of units.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2018
  13. btp|Lancer

    btp|Lancer

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    Love the map design. The tileset and the creep variety is almost perfect for me. Natural expansion in a properly distance, love it. Every neutral building except the shop are in the middle of the map, so it makes it more contestable. Item drop is okay.

    Something I think you should consider for a competitive map are:
    • Sasquatch level 6 and level 5 camp (which is considered GREEN SPOT) is pretty hard to kill. They are hard units and still might summon 3 or 6 more treants..
    • Red bottom creep is just impossible to kill. You need a huge army and non low health units. Rewarding with health rune might solve the problem. Not sure..
     
  14. Kaer#2460

    Kaer#2460

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    Hi @Granite_Golem @mafe @Mr.Henci

    Your map drew my attention due to @mafe's Top5 suggestions for new community maps in the W3C discord server based on this thread. Of all maps mentioned, I think this is the map with the most potential of being introduced to tournament mappools because it is insanely well designed and very fresh. The idea of axial instead of point symmetry is the one thing that I think is totally underexplored in mapmaking, because it opens alot new design space while still fullfilling all the formal requirements for competitive balance (i.e. even distibution and equal access to resources). Therefore, I am quite delighted to see a map like Senjins Hideout which comes with all those features and fresh ideas. The map is playable and refreshing as it is right now (5 stars from me). Nonetheless, I would like to comment on a few things which I fear might make this map unpopular/unbalanced in competitive play but could easily be improved (sorted by decreasing importance). We have to keep in mind that custom maps are viewed critically by a major part of the competitive scene and therefore need to be absolutely perfect to stand a chance of replacing a map that the playerbase is familiar with.


    1. Ramps
    Ramps and cliffs are an attractive tool for mapmakers due to their powerful characteristics regarding paths and adding flavor the the environment. Though, they are a dangerous addition for any map due to their strategical implications on competitive play. Because the player on the upper side of the ramp has vision advantage and the player on the lower side has +25% miss chance on range attacks, ramps serve as a fortress for the player on the upper side which is basically impossible to break if you are not up by 15-20 supply or have a massive air army, which is both highly unlikely in high level 1v1. This has two consequences:
    • ramps must be clearly identifiable for the players so that the strategical (dis)advantages can be calculated and don't come as a surprise
    • ramps should be used very sparsely and carefully.
    If we take a look at other competitive maps, most of them have exactly zero ramps included (AZ, EI, TM, TS, NI), leaving us with two ramps on CH and four ramps on LR:
    • LR utilizes two ramps to separate Labs from the main bases and two ramps for the red spot expansions. All of those ramps are clearly identifiable, only accessible from one side and not essential for the flow of the game because the player on the lower side can just take other objectives instead like attacking the main base of the player camping upside a ramp.
    • CH is more critical with the red spot expansion in the middle of the map being located upside a ramp on a strategically very important location. These ramps are harder to play around and also not perfectly identifiable ingame because their edges are covered by trees.
    Now lets take a look at Senjins Hideout. You have introduced as many as 7(!) ramps (red lines in the picture below). More than all other competitive maps combined. Also, the ramps are not limited to certain areas of the map that the attacking player can avoid in order to go for another objective like in CH/LR. Especially around the main bases, this introduces a big imbalance in competitive play because good players can use the ramps as fortresses, resulting in a too huge disadvantage for the attacking player and thereby making the game very stale. Keep in mind that the attacking player already has some natural disadvantages in Wc3: no towers/burrows/moonewells/..., no shop where you can buy potions and a longer distance for reinforcements to join the fight. Introducing another significant disadvantage for the attacking player like having to fight from the lower side of a ramp is probably just too much.
    My recommendation would be to lower the cliff level around the main bases by one and therby removing six of the ramps. If you think that ramps are essential to the flavor of this map, I would propose the areas marked in blue (picture below) as alternative ramp locations.
    [​IMG]
    Furthermore, the ramps on Senjins Hideout are hard to detect (picture below), making it inconvenient for players to identify areas of impeded vision (and +25% miss chance). This is a big no-no for competitive play and would probably make this map an instant-veto for many ladder players.
    [​IMG]


    2. Map size
    With 104x104, Senjins Hideout is on the large side of competitive 1v1 maps. This is not necessarely a bad thing, but tournament organizers tend to only include a few large maps and those slots are occupied by some of the most popular and best designed maps (NI, TM) while some of the smaller maps are on the weaker side and crave to get replaced (TS, CH, AZ).
    Concerning Senjins Hideout, I think the map size is fine as it is but it would not lose any of its flavor by being reduced to ~90x90. This could be achieved by:
    • moving everything including the starting positions slightly towards the top right corner (which also helps making the top right corner less "boring")
    • reducing the dead space next to the natural expansions
    • removing one of the four lvl 4-5 green creep spots around the main bases (having more than 3-4 green creepcamps per player doesn't really fulfill any tactical purpose other than decorating empty space)
    • moving the island expansion out of the corner and maybe even connecting it to the land mass
    • reducing the map size towards the left and bottom edges.
    [​IMG]


    3. Island expansion

    Island expansions are probably as controversial as ramps in competitive maps. For us mapmakers who are generally not the strongest 1v1 players, it seems like a fun mechanic. In reality, it is boring at best and frustrating at worst because the player with the strongest anti-air (bats/gyros) can abuse this up to the extreme case of forcing a draw which is not intended to happen in Wc3 because it results in an endless game.
    I see the point of an island expansion on this specific map because it cuts off the bottom left corner and therby reduces the playable area which is generally a good thing. But, as stated above, I think there are other possibilities of reducing the map size that should be considered before introducing an island expansion. Overall I think, an accessible red spot goldmine both in the bottom left and top right corner would be beneficial for the mid/lategame game flow on this map.


    4. General comments:
    • I really like the general theme of the map, combining Lordaeron Summer terrain with some Barrens rock spires/craters/geysirs. Perhaps, this theme could be explored even further by using dirt instead of grass cliffs and adding some fissures, cactuses, occasional Barrens trees etc.?
    • IMO, it is generally a good idea to connect some of the dirt terrain spots so that they emerge as a pathway which is visible on the minimap and makes orientation much more intuitive for players because it gives an additional measure where on the map you are, i.e. 'left of certain road' instead of 'somewhere in the green' (see picture below).
    [​IMG]
    • Introducing topography by the 'raise' brush is generally great but I would recommend to stay more flat around gold mines (especially main bases). Build orders easily get screwed by too much topography which is quite anti-fun (see picture below).
    [​IMG]
    • Overall, this is map is the most refreshing custom map I have seen in ages and I really hope to see it being introduced in ladder and tournament mappools in the future.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  15. mafe

    mafe

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    So, let's see:
    1. About the ramps: I agree that they should be more clearly recognizable. While I dont think they are essential to the identity of the map, I also dont think they "should" be a big issue objectively, as imho they are sufficiently far away from the base so that it should be possible for the attacker to move onto highground without the defender noticing. Also, my impression is that the current meta involves a lot of expansions. So you dont necessarily have to attack the main base head on to finish the game like it used to be commong a few years ago. However admittedly there is no guarantee that it will stay this way.

    2. Map size: Imho I'd rather see AZ/EI gone over TS/CH, but getting a consensus on this topic is impossible anyway. However, if you see this map as a potential replacement for EI, then I think those two maps might have roughly the same actually playable size (ignoring the island). I can see your point of making the map smaller, but simply moving stuff inwards is not enough, as then expanding becomes noticably easier due to the reduced distance to the main base. Regarding the green camps: I think they have a purpose for evasion creeping, which at last I am big fan of ;) But if there map size were to be reduced as you suggested, removing 2 of them would be not an issue for me. The "dead areas" imho exist on other maps too.

    3. Island expansion: Yeah I dont many any changes here.

    4. The visual theme was to imitate the style of the (original) prologue campain which imho was done very well by @Mr.Henci . It's true that the minimap readability could be improved and that flat terrain in base building areas is preferable over uneven terrain.

    I guess we really should consider doing some more changes here ;)