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60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

Brightwater Oasis

Submitted by mafe
This bundle is marked as approved. It works and satisfies the submission rules.
My submission for Melee Mapping Contest #2 and Hive Workshop Cup Melee Mapping Contest

Nonstandard gameplay features:
-Buildings with random spawn location. Technically these are random buildings, but they are linked in such a way that threre will always be exactly 2 goblin laboratories and 2 golbin shops in symmetric locations, but each set of buildings can spawn at different places.
-Late-game-expansion is closer to the main base than the early-game expansion.
-There's a pair of creepspts that consists only of a single lvl 4 creep each.
-I tried avoiding all standard creep such as ogres, trolls, rogues, wizards. Only some kobolds are there as they also exist in the barrens (at least according to the Rexxar campaign).

In case you are wondering about the blue mushrooms or vines (or whatever they are called in english) on the mountains near the red quilboard/harpye camp: These are references to the barrens in WoW classic, where similar features exist.

Thanks to @JaleVeliki , @Ragnaros17 , @Granite_Golem and many other people for feedback.

Changelog:

Update on 7.11.2018 (v1.01)
-Changed creeps at all expansions: Red camp in middle slighlty weakened (replaced lvl 6 thunder lizard with lvl 4 owl beast and lvl 2 lizard). At side expansions, replaced lvl 4 centaur archer with lvl 2 archer and lvl 2 centaur worker. This means no more lvl 2 from creeping this expansion only.
-Made highrogund area at middle expansions larger, added more trees there.
-Minor tile changes.

Update on 15.12.2018 (v1.02):
Removed tents at top left quilboar creepspot.

Update on 5.10.2019 (v1.03):
-Various visual improvements.
-Slight moved some creeps and random building locations.
-Set most item tables to standard "random lvl x item of class y" pattern, as the recent patches made most previous adjustments unnecessary.
-Adjusted description.
-Screenshots still based on previous versions.

Update on 6.10.2019 (v1.04):
-Further visual improvements.
-Removed a tree near the jungle stalkers in the top left which occasionally had caused these stalkers to block each other.
-Adjusted name of map file.
-Added a few more critters around the map.
-Most Screenshots still based on previous versions, but overview screenshot is now updated.

Update on 27.10.2019 (v1.05):
-At the brown expansions, replaced one lvl 2 Centaur Drudge and two lvl 2 Centaur Archers with two lvl 3 Quilboar Hunters (overall exp unchanged, but the camp now includes medium armor creeps. It was all heavy armor before). Also slightly changed trees near these expansions.
-Slightly moved the northeastern goldmine so that the layout is now more symmetric. Also slightly extended the buildable terrain in front of the gold mine by moving the shallow water further back.
-At the formerly 5-4-2 all centaur spots near the main base, replace the lvl 4 centuar outrunner with one lvl 1 Razormane Scout and a lvl 3 Quilboar Hunter (again, overall exp changed, but now includes a medium armor creep).
-At the red creep camps, replaced the lvl 6/2 thunder lizards with a lvl 5 Centaur Sorcerer and a lvl 4 Centaur Impaler (This camp now gives 10 more experience. It now has more single target damage and less aoe damage. It should be easier to creep for melee based armies).
-At the red creep camps, removed the Stone Token from dropping. Added the Potion Of Restoration as a potential drop to the western camp, where it was missing before.
-Slightly adjusted the placement of creeps at the southern kobold camp.
-Screenshots not updated yet.
Previews
Contents

Brightwater Oasis (Map)

Reviews
deepstrasz
Approved based on reviews here: Melee Mapping Contest #2 - Results
twojstaryjakcie
I will actually set this map to Awaiting Update, because numerous issues mentioned in the contest reviews have not yet been addressed.
  1. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    The map is great, the random buildings are an excellent concept, even in the minimap, you can´t see the buildings.
    That gives a lot of replay value.
     
  2. Diegoit

    Diegoit

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    Really good idea
     
  3. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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  4. twojstaryjakcie

    twojstaryjakcie

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    I will actually set this map to Awaiting Update, because numerous issues mentioned in the contest reviews have not yet been addressed.
     
  5. mafe

    mafe

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    I will check those one by one. First of all, this map is surely not my best one, but still I disagree with some of the criticism.

    From SisterShe:

    "It's good, but I feel it could be a lil bit better, and I'm not sure the mixed tileset works in a few
    places, notably the expansion. Certain tiles clash very hard and there's a lack of a natural
    transition and can look a bit weird and off. I also feel there's more potiental here,"

    That's the only thing I could identify as an issue. I agree with it. Cant say much else here.

    From deepstraz:

    "The Wand of Illusion could be a powerful tool if not countered properly. It should not be dropped too early in the game."

    First of all, anything could be a powerful tool if not countered properly. Imho that is a not sign of bad balance, but a sign of good balance. It would would only be a problem if something would be powerful despite being countered properly. Also I dont think the wand of Illusion is dropped much earlier than on other maps (see TS, AZ shops).

    "Expansions are pretty close to each other. However, humans might have a hard time getting the one on the cliff with those lizards splash damaging militia. Maybe, it's a last choice so militia won't quite be a thing then."


    The players are supposed to expand at the centaur-guarded expansions first and I dont think they are that close to each other. Yes these lizards are mean to militia, but it is correct that I intended those to be the lategame expansions that are typically not taken until the main gold mines run out. I took a similar design to SV and LR, where you have shockwaving ogre warlords protecting the expansions, which I dont think you would try to creep with militia either. Maybe I could replace one lizard with something else though. But I also dont want humans to get 2 easy expansions.

    "Rune of the watchers are problematic in that if they are too close to the enemy's base, scouting will be lessened in that part and the other player might be at a disadvantage if a watcher ward is not under said player's control too. Sure, changes are low that the southern player would go for the northern Goblin Merchant camp before the northern player. Chances are even lower for the same player to get both ward."

    I designed the highground parts in the north and south in such a way that players can still attack the main bases from this side of the map even if the defender has the watcher ward. If a player gets both wards, then imho he has played better than the opponent and deserves to have an advantage. The same can happen on TR.

    From twojstaryjakcie:

    "I don’t really like the random buildings idea, especially since it randomizes between a Laboratory and literally nothing; it’s like the Fawlty Towers scene: “You can either get a goose with stuffing or a surprise goose” “What’s the surprise?” “It doesn’t have the stuffing”; I really think you could simply add a neutral building to both camps instead of giving it to just one of them and leaving the other one empty-handed (also, both camps are slightly too easy and close to the starting locations)"

    If you dont get a lab in spot A, you get a lab in spot B and vice versa. That was the main idea I wanted to try on this map. Same for the shop. If you dont like it, I respect that. But I also heard other opinions. I cant simply add a neutral building to the other location, because there all other neutral buildings (except the Lordaeron summer merc camp which doesnt fit the theme) come with their own issues.

    "Centaur Expansion is too easy to creep, as a level 1 Archmage and 4 Militia is enough to clear it, giving Humans an advantage by letting them a very early second base and a whole level for the Archmage"

    There are 4-4-2-2 creeps protecting the expansion. On EI and LR, it is guarded by 5-3-3 creeps. I can perfectly well creep whose with an archmage and 4 militia as well, even though I indeed dont get to lvl 2 there. The expansion is also much closer to the enemy than on EI, so harassing the human while he is creeping the expansion is also easier. I might be out of date with the metagame, but usually most humans creep to lvl 2 before going for the expansion anyway.

    "a level 2 power up drop is rarely a good idea if the Tome of Experience isn’t removed (it’s much more powerful than the rest of tomes)"

    The only tomes of experience drop from red creep camps. Many other competitive maps do it the same way, or even dont bother removing them.

    "lots of empty space"
    "the east and west sides of the map are covered with a straight wall of rock doodads and it looks quite awkward"
    "Some doodads are placed in a clunky manner and some are a bit overused. Its visual aspect could definitely be improved, at least to some extent."


    "Empty" as in "visually empty"? I agree with those points.

    "the red expansions near the middle are hard to clear, establish and defend as they are on a very tiny platform; they have very few trees, too"
    "Middle expansions seem quite unusable and easy to creepjack, too."

    See above, this is intentional. I agree about the trees and I actually tried to fit in more, I didnt find a solution that made me happy. And on LR, there only a few trees more on the equivalent location. Imho LR also sees creepjacks at these expansions frequently.

    "Learning the location of buildings is to some extent part of the map and even though randomising their position may be a bit more fun, it may also seem confusing and somewhat unfair, since the difficulty of camps that can guard a Laboratory on this map is varying (Quillboars are closer to the player and easier to creep, while centaurs are tougher and further, too <also, since when are Goblin Laboratories so close to players’ bases and so easy to clear?>)."

    Fair point about the quillboars. However, I prefer to see this as a feature, as if the strength of the creepcamp guarding the lab changes dependsing on the spawn, it means players have to prepare for different situations. Whether player will like that is a different matter of course, but my hopes are that it would keep the map fresh for longer. Weakly guarded goblin labs close to the main bases can found on the old TS and on AZ.


    To conclude, I think any aspect that is similar to something that is seen on a competitive map should be no problem. Then there are the visual aspect, which I think are indeed not perfect, but do they have to be? Unless someone tells me that it is clearly below the standard of ladder maps, I dont see a problem here either. Then there are some gameplay aspects which I intentionally included as hopefully innovative features, which is a matter of personal preference and come without a guarantee of success. And finally, there are few points which I simply overlooked (lvl 2 from expansion, two lizards having too much splash damage in combination, probably several floating doodads).
    Of course, I would like to have my map be approved, and I'm willing to make a few changes. But frankly, even if my map isnt perfect, I dont feel that I should need to.
     
  6. twojstaryjakcie

    twojstaryjakcie

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    I understand your point of view, although I still think you should address at least a few of the issues mentioned in the reviews. Obviously, you can ignore all the problems with aesthetics as they have minimal impact on the actual gameplay and also because it is mostly a matter of preference. I'll try to explain the more important balance issues further and elaborate on why I believe some specific problems should be fixed.

    They do, however if an expansion is that easy, they might not need to. Imagine having to deal with a full hp level 2 Archmage a minute after getting a hero from the altar. Even if Human players don't try to secure a super fast expansion before their opponent even hits level 2, they still have a considerable experience advantage since no other race can clear the expansion this fast with so few units and so little health lost at the same time. It may seem that being almost at level 2 (like you are in Echo Isles) is pretty much the same as getting level 2, but it actually makes you dedicate more time into creeping another camp. Needing to clear only one camp in order to level up effectively saves you from walking to another creep camp and losing additional time - and that saved time actually scales, letting you get level 3 earlier, thus allowing for earlier level 4, and so on. A seemingly small thing like this can escalate through the course of the game, punishing an opponent who didn't try to creepjack the Human player way harder than it should.

    I understand that this expansion shouldn't be accessible early on, but its design makes it really prone to creepjacking and thus even harder to clear than it's supposed to be. Maybe instead of making one expansion easy and rewarding and the other one hard and risky, you could balance them out a bit? Currently, the Red Expansion is hard to clear (especially for Human players) and is not a realistic place to expand to for a few reasons - it's easy to creepjack, has almost no trees, and the area of the expansion being so small that it allows units to attack it without going up the ramp completely. I really think that increasing the size of the expansion, reducing its difficulty or type (replacing splash damage with something else) or adding more trees would make the expansion more appealing or at least possible to take in situations other than 30 minute games.

    Making it possible for a Goblin Laboratory to spawn next to your base with very easy creeps means you can allow for very sudden and unsuspected attacks with Goblin Sappers and, more importantly, gives Night Elves easy access to a Goblin Shredder. You consider this a feature, but I see it more as an advantage for one race over others.

    I understand that you have your own view on the map and I can respect that, however I feel like the issues I elaborated on here could be addressed at least to a certain extent as in my view these problems do affect the map's balance considerably. But of course, if you still disagree, I'm listening.

    Also, I'm also only noticing this now, but your map uses Default Game Data Set instead of Melee (Latest Patch), so if there's anything you should definitely fix, there's this.

    PS: Please don't use abbreviations for Melee maps if you want me to understand what map you're thinking of. I know I should remember the name of each 1v1 ladder map, but I sometimes find it incredibly hard to recognize which one you're talking about.

    Edit: Thanks for implementing some of the changes. I checked the layout of maps you mentioned and I have to agree that based on them one of my points loses some merit. Even though I think there is still room for improvement for this map, it deserves to be approved nonetheless.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  7. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    That should be used on maps which lose the melee status as the game detects if it's melee and uses the game's (e.g. newest) balance implementations.
     
  8. mafe

    mafe

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    I've made a few changes now.
    After further reviews, I agree with you and made corresponding changes.
    I also changed the creeps and added trees. However the "one expansion for earlygame, one expansion for lategame defended by strong creeps" is something I've seen on Last Refuge and Secret Valley (which has fallen out of favor, but imho the fountains were the primary cause for that). I consider this to be a feature. If the expansion is too easy to take, humans can take it and turtle up with highground advantage, which is no good either. And if you get creepjacked, then well, you at least have the highground advantage.
    I can only ask you to look at the (old) Terenas Stand and Amazonia. If anything, the golbin laboratory is even closer to the base there.
     
  9. Rockstar356

    Rockstar356

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    Congratulations @mafe on winning the contest. I haven't logged in here for a while, but I follow the hive's Facebook page. Today I was there and suddenly I see a Hive post about a tournament or something and I said "hey, that's my map" but after seeing it well I realized that it wasn't and then I thought "it looks a lot like my map" I must mention the similarity that this map has with one of mine (Desert's Edge), it almost seems that you modified my map. what do you think @deepstrasz .
     
  10. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    If it wasn't a problem then Melee Mapping Contest #2 - 1 vs 1 why is it now?

    They are not the same at all even if yours was uploaded 7 days before his. Similarities between maps is a very common thing in melee.
     
  11. mafe

    mafe

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    This almost sounds as if you were accusing me of something like plagiarism...? Please elaborate more closely what you are referring to.

    In case it is just the tileset, please note that I have used a virtually identical concept (combination of barrens and sunken ruins) in another map of mine, which I have uploaded more than a year before your map: Crawling Shallows
     
  12. Rockstar356

    Rockstar356

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    No problem, I just wanted to mention it.

    I know you're a good map maker and you don't need to take work from others, I just wanted to mention it, I didn't want it to sound so bad. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  13. AdanPirss

    AdanPirss

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    : campesino-ok-mano: