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Techtree Contest #15 - Co-op Commanders [Optionally Paired]

Discussion in 'Contest Archive' started by Wazzz, May 29, 2020.

  1. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Yep, it is classic graphics - and I did try to save it in an older format, but so far no dice unfortunately. I think there's just too many issues on Blizzard's end to pull that off.

    I should also clarify that getting testers to playtest the map is also not against contest rules. If you can find the people to do it, go for it :)
     
  2. MrRious

    MrRious

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    Can you please explain the Hero part of the contest?

    - Does he(/she) have to be from the WC3 or the Warcraft lore in general?
    - If from WC3 can he be modified, or does he have to have the old set of skills?
    - If from the general lore, can he be a custom character based around a certain faction/class/race?
    - Since the min. amount of Heroes is just one, should the tech-tree focus only on this one with the other being less significant or can the units be based around all of the heroes in general?

    This sorta things
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  3. Footman16

    Footman16

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    So I gave the race a good playthrough against computers to get a feel for them and I liked a lot of what I saw.

    Pros:
    -The race had a definite feel to it of prioritising massed low food units over high food units along with the kind of ad-hoc nature of the units with looters, scavengers and straight up brutes giving the Gnoll's a wide variety which was cool.
    -Icons and custom models were appropriate and very well done and used where necessary.
    -Snarllmane's aura was interesting and definitely set him out as the Commander of the race.
    -The race "seemed" balanced but there were a few areas of weakness that I'll outline.
    -Its very impressive you were able to do so much work in such a short time.
    -The race felt like I was playing Gnolls which is a big big plus on theme and aesthetic. I didn't know how such low hp units would fare against AoE etc and whilst it is a weakness they do seem to have counters.

    Cons:
    -Some abilities have the wrong icons and tooltips (i.e. Hogger's Avatar mentions Garithos "Inhuman beasts!") but this is more just a polishing up issue.
    -No early game healing as far as I could tell which was problematic for a race with on average very low hp
    -Few dispels
    -Not as much originality in the abilities as I would've liked with most being re-named/re-skins of existing ones which isn't bad per se but you do need some original abilities in there. Especially when it comes to Heroes.
    -No shop with some Gnoll themed items
    -I could go into more specifics about some units and how they maybe don't work but I don't think that's necessary.
    -The necessity to get Hogger first whilst understandable for the theme I don't think helps balance wise since you're being forced into a particular hero's playstyle and your opponent would know your stuck for your first choice of hero and counter it immediately.

    Overall:
    Very fun race to play but needs a bit of polish and added uniqueness but does a very good job in catching the feel and aesthetic of the gnolls in appearance and playstyle, a solid foundation to work upon :)
     
  4. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    I think this has been covered before, but in many respects that might involve scrounging through the thread.

    - This is Warcraft lore in general, so you have quite a roster you can play around with.
    - If they are from Warcraft 3, they absolutely can be modified - in fact, it is definitely encouraged :)
    - Ideally it would be an existing character, but there is also a degree of flexibility, especially for characters that have existed in several factions as well as some of the more interesting "what if?" scenarios (like Dreadlord Jaina was apparently a thing? Shit if somebody wants to do that I don't have it in me to stop them).
    - Further on this point, I would like to state that this doesn't apply for other heroes you attach. You can make the other heroes whatever you like, ideally something that fits thematically.
    - When it comes to how you handle heroes, this is intentionally very open for interpretation - ideally, it should be integrated in a way that can fit within melee gameplay, buuut aside from that, go nuts with the creative liberty.

    I hope that helps cover some things :)

    @Footman16 oh sweet, I wasn't expecting anything quite like this, it was pretty much something I just threw together so it's nice to see such strong feedback :)

    The shop... yeeeeah I was thinking of adding something like that in, but I also wanted to upload it very soon, so I might slap one in for fun soon :p
    I imagine the race itself probably has quite a bit of balance issue, it has like zero testing in that area. It was... sort of one of those things where I was rather drawn to making something similar to a campaign race in terms of simplicity, but am very happy the execution of ideas landed where they did.

    Granted, the forcing Snarlmane to be the first hero is probably going to cause some balance issues for anybody who wants to open with anything different, but I do hope it serves as a nice example for what can be done - I also had it that Tavern heroes were disabled for Snarlmane players, to sort of demonstrate one possible way of steering players towards the playstyle.

    I think my favorite part, though, is the mention of it being a solid foundation to work upon - that is because this is, in part, intended as a testbed for ideas for my own project, which while different to the Warcraft 3 melee gameplay, does benefit from me exploring such ideas here. I think I might update this a bit when I can, although I do intend to keep it rather simple :)
     
  5. The_Spellweaver

    The_Spellweaver

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    Okay, I'm entering. Chosen character: Cho'gall leading more people into the Twilight Hammer cult, to bring about THE HOUR OF TWILIGHT!

    I am the beginning of the end...the shadow which blots out the sun...the bell which tolls your doom...
    For this moment ALONE was I made. Look upon your death, mortals, and despair! -
    Ultraxion
     
  6. MogulKahn

    MogulKahn

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    What about people who have older version of Warcraft? Version 1.27 to be exact.
     
  7. xYours Trulyx

    xYours Trulyx

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    Ironic, isn't it? That's what I did last contest and Kam thought I was just reusing vanilla abilities. I don't advice you to do that.
     
  8. johnwar

    johnwar

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    Once again showing the abilities, but now it's for the Grand Magister
    Abilities - Grand Magister
    • BTNSelfDestruct.jpg Pillars of Flame
      BTNkael.JPG The Grand Magister casts pillars of flame in a straight line, dealing damage and stunning enemy ground units. Level 1 - 50 damage, 2 second stun, 2 pillars of flame. Level 2- 100 damage, 3 second stun, 3 pillars of flame. Level 3 - 150 damage, 4 second stun, 4 pillars of flame.
    • BTNSpell_Fire_Fireball02.JPG Fireblast
      BTNkael.JPG The Grand Magister blasts an area with fire, stunning enemy land units for 1 second and damaging nearby enemy units. Level 1 - 25 damage. Level 2 - 50 damage. Level 3 - 75 damage.
    • PASBTNFeedBack.jpg Feedback
      BTNkael.JPG The Grand Magister's attacks destroy mana per hit. The mana combusts, dealing damage to the attacked unit. Level 1- 20 mana destroyed per hit. Level 2 - 25 mana destroyed per hit. Level 3 - 30 mana destroyed per hit.
    • BTNArcaneGuardian.JPG Mount Arcane Golem
      BTNkael.JPG The Grand Magister mounts his own Arcane Golem, a powerful armored golem that has the following traits:|n|n- Bonus damage, hit points, and armor. The Grand Magister becomes mechanical, rendering him immune to most forms of stun, most offensive spells, and several beneficial spells.
     
  9. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    People using an older version should still be able to submit, as it seems backward compatibility is the primary issue, but not the other way around.

    In regards to Kam's reviews, he still gave the Seraphic Union a good score on Creativity - 11/15. He mentioned that the abilities were generally interesting but [sometimes] they were heavily based on standard spells, which to me didn't seem to be the primary factor for not getting 15/15. It was his next point that I found to be the primary point to take home, which was:
    Unfortunately, this is a factor that can only be quantified by playing around with what you're making, and ideally making something that you feel excited to play as well as to make. That being said, 11/15 is a very respectable score.

    Now, it may also be prudent to make reference to the Creativity score area for the Emerald Nightmare:
    What I particularly like about this review is that we're looking at a case where quite a lot of the abilities were reskinned vanilla spells, the implementation was still clever enough to warrant a score of 10/15 for Creativity. Further on that end, Kam also expands the point to say that this is a phenomenal base to work from, which I think is what people should be working towards at this stage in the competition. This is the process I use myself, where I establish a solid template to expand ideas from, and that is in no small part the purpose of Snarlmane's demo design - it's very basic ideas done to produce the effect I want, which can always be expanded upon with time and polish.

    Using negative values for existing standard spells is, ultimately, completely fine. You might not get a perfect score for creativity if you overused the method, but if you implement it in areas where it's warranted and use it in such an effect that it creates compelling gameplay, it should be fine enough, especially for those who are not yet overly strong in the Trigger Editor. After all, if you're not strong in that area, your options for producing completely brand new abilities are somewhat limited. This does not mean that you cannot score well in Creativity, least of all with clever implementations to compensate as well as the right abilities in the right areas to produce the effect you're after. Of course, if a lot of what is designed just feels like a rehash of what already exists just with an added effect, it's almost a similar design philosophy to copying a Wikipedia page and changing the words around slightly - at that point you can dress it up how you want, but it's going to fall into the trap of feeling like plagiarism.
     
  10. MrRious

    MrRious

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    I'm in and so is Antonidas
    yaroslav-tarasenko-antonfinal.jpg

    One more question, are morphed units counted as a seperate one?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  11. MogulKahn

    MogulKahn

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    Then I am in. Will try my chance with Falstad Wildhammer!
     
  12. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Good question. I think in some instances, they count as separate units, such as the case of the Obsidian Statue transforming into the Destroyer. Something like the Gargoyle going into Stone Form, however, would count as one unit, with two unit types aiding in its functionality. The same can be said for the burrow ability. Druids of the Talon and Druids of the Claw, I think, also similarly count as single units, but with shape shifting as an aid towards versatility via their ability.

    So, it seems if a unit is altering permanently to a separate unit role, then it can count as two separate units. If they can just alternate between the two units as an ability, then it is just one unit in most, if not all, instances.
     
  13. Footman16

    Footman16

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    Interesting, looks like we've got 2 Jainas and now a Dalaran entry compared to my Kirin Tor Offensive.

    Lets hope mine stands out lol.
     
  14. Daffa

    Daffa

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    Since we talk about unique abilities, I also address the fact that using under-utilized abilities (for example Parasite, Spawn Hydra) is a good way to add the score to creativity. Making them communicate with each other (Parasite spawn a healing unit --> the unit can be absorbed for quick heal) is also a way to add further to creativity score. Even if we have tons of highly triggered spells, if they do not cooperate as a whole, it will not yield a high score.

    A good way is to incorporate the concept of your faction to the spells.
     
  15. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Actually used Parasite in that exact way for one of the spells for Secret Grove :D

    With a score of 15/15 for Creativity on that, I can verify that this approach is a phenomenal way to go.
    Besides, just because a spell is coded doesn't mean it will necessarily be "creative", least of all if the spell was just one that was downloaded from Hive - you need to be creative in how you use these things, and how you get them to fit.

    Then that point about incorporating the concept of your faction to the spells is just so damn perfect - you need to consider the gameplay style you're going for, the role of the unit and what you want them to do, as well as how effective you want them to be in that role.
     
  16. MogulKahn

    MogulKahn

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    Well, throughout all my years playing custom Warcraft 3 maps and campaigns I have realized that Tomorider's approach to unit design is the best. Just creative and fitting use of existent abilities. It is no accident that his work is praised and loved through whole Warcraft community. His design of Forsaken and Blood Elf races nearly became a standard. Every time I try some other campaigns, I can see that they were inspired by his work.

    People don't realize that Warcraft has really simple spells and majority of the times, they are going over the top with their custom spells.
     
  17. Daffa

    Daffa

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    What's the difference between Duststorm and Duststorm_LV?
     
  18. xYours Trulyx

    xYours Trulyx

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    LV is on the ladder.
     
  19. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    The LV version mostly swaps Gold Mine Expansion points with Neutral Passive building vendors. So the LV version has a more natural expansion set up, while the non-LV version is... a little strange.

    I actually didn't know about Tomoraider's campaigns before, partly because I haven't really followed the custom campaign scene that diligently, but after seeing his style I'm thinking that it might be about time I checked out some of these custom campaigns. This is exactly what I'm talking about, @MogulKahn, and it's definitely a style both worth looking at and implementing. In many cases, the simplest solution is best, and from there you can expand existing ideas to get a lot more polish.

    Always start with a solid foundation, and work your way up from there.
     
  20. Footman16

    Footman16

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    Right, so whilst I think there will still be balance changes and tweaks to make I believe my entry is now in a state where it can be uploaded

    THW.TTC15 Kirin Tor Offensive

    So any and all feedback is appreciated :)