Melee Mapping Contest #4 - 2v2

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Judges really shouldnt interfere.
Everyone else should be free to give feedback.
The underlying goal with the contest is obviously to create a bunch of good 2v2 maps.
So if people help each other out, it's in everyone's favour.
Unless you're super tryhard about winning.

So can I ask the amoun of trees a main base should have. Echo isles has 161 is that ok?
 
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I decided to go with Underground tileset, it is going pretty well.
 

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If a spot opens up, I would like to participate! I love playing 2v2 RTs and Ats. It would be a blast to design one for the competitive scene!
 
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I'm in. Gotta try redeem myself :p
Gonna put serious effort now, fair warning!

gl to all others and I'm glad that teamwork is now officially stated as such in contest rules.
gl to all teams, can't wait to see what all comes up with.

p.s - I haven't started mapping yet and might consider teaming up.



Are custom doodads allowed?

Nowhere in the rules states that we can't make custom doodads or edit the native ones.
I'm all for reforged friendly without custom models, but not even custom vanilla doodads?
What would it change if I make a shrub "slightly blue" ? Doesn't impact the game.

This was also a problem in the last contest. So just answer it for all of us to avoid further confusion.
If a spot opens up, I would like to participate! I love playing 2v2 RTs and Ats. It would be a blast to design one for the competitive scene!

You are the 26 participant,you will be placed in something called "waiting list", while the limit for the moment is 25, if someone drops, you go up one spot and you are safe.

now considering this scenario where you can team with someone, 2 user can have one spot. so if you team with @sentrywiz or other user, you can have a safe spot I think (???),

@mafe

correct me if I am wrong.
 
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okay, great! My first preference would to do it solo, but since it is full atm, I would gladly give my effort with Sentrywiz, if he is still searching to do a collaborative project. :)

Thanks.
 

mafe

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Judges really shouldnt interfere.
Everyone else should be free to give feedback.
The underlying goal with the contest is obviously to create a bunch of good 2v2 maps.
So if people help each other out, it's in everyone's favour.
Unless you're super tryhard about winning.
This.
okay, great! My first preference would to do it solo, but since it is full atm, I would gladly give my effort with Sentrywiz, if he is still searching to do a collaborative project. :)

Thanks.
Added you to waiting list. You can also just write a post in here stating what your think your strength/weaknesses are and maybe someone will find that your skills would complement each other well.
 
First wip.
The shadow map generator continues to show me the middle finger. Decided to go for an overgrown cave aesthetic by covering everything in shadow (except the center), but it bugged out in the corner and nothing I do seems to remedy this. Can someone remind me again how to delete the shadowmap from my map file please?
 

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First wip.
The shadow map generator continues to show me the middle finger. Decided to go for an overgrown cave aesthetic by covering everything in shadow (except the center), but it bugged out in the corner and nothing I do seems to remedy this. Can someone remind me again how to delete the shadowmap from my map file please?

upload_2019-3-17_14-31-21.png


are you using boundaries to do that shadow, I am kinda lost, what did you use for those shadows?, or are you using doodads??
 
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are you using boundaries to do that shadow, I am kinda lost, what did you use for those shadows?, or are you using doodads??
Huge white circular doodads that I deleted after calculating the shadowmap. I remember something about opening the map file with an mpq editor and deleting a file or something like that? Gonna poke around the mpq editor a bit.
EDIT: yeah, that worked. Now I have to figure out another way to make it look like a cave.
EDIT2: I have officially found the holy grail of shadowmap converters.
 

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Level 27
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Huge white circular doodads that I deleted after calculating the shadowmap. I remember something about opening the map file with an mpq editor and deleting a file or something like that? Gonna poke around the mpq editor a bit.
EDIT: yeah, that worked. Now I have to figure out another way to make it look like a cave.

Huge white circular doodads, if is a doodad , you can always place one, select all special, delete.
 
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The map is playable now.

Link for anyone that wants to test.
Terrace Fields - Warcraft 3 Maps - Epic War.com

I think your map is very solid, very competitive.

the map has strong creeps in all neutral buildings (except the tavern) , golmines level 17 and thats the min, also hard creeps and size will estimulate very early PVP
So it seems the key is coperative creeping to get the neutrals, interesting center. with the merc camp


Maybe the far goldmines are hard (red), also they have 1000 gold less than near ones, IMO = same creep in all golmines or similar levels.
maybe a bit of more gold in the far goldmines and just a bit more hard but not a red creep.
If not 1 of the players may starve. Thats the only thing at the moment I can talk regarding balance, the expanding goldmines.

Again , the second in submiting the wc3.file,

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/attachments/4-stairs-of-destiny-w3x.318795/

here is my map, if someone wants to take a look, is still very very wip , with tons of areas not fully designed,

-base wood is in place (not all of it)
-all creeps are in place, loot is incomplete,
-you can loot the permanent level 3 or the charged level 3 but no power ups, I still not fully set the powers ups level 1 and 2.
-incomplete scouting points, for wisp and farms

but it can be played if you dont mind the squares and incomplete terrain


upload_2019-3-17_23-10-40.png

upload_2019-3-17_23-13-0.png



(dont guide with XY numbers, for simetry I use other methods)
 
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Hi! Is it still possible to join the waiting list?
As far as i know it's always possible, you can join either way but if you don't get a spot you don't have your map judged. You can still uploaded as a non contest resource.

the limit and the waiting list, are to discourage further joins,

If there are drops (and as I remember in the 2nd and 3rd melee contest were like 3-4 drops), you go up a spot, you are in the post 27, limit is 25.
you would need 2 drops to get 25.

"It is to limit the number of submissions that the judges will have to review, as these reviews will take a lot of time if taken seriously, and the judges are doing this in their own free time. However, if it is foreseeable that there is much greater interest in this contest than anticipated, this topic can be discussed further."

as stated, nothing is fully absolute. there is a chance that the topic can be discussed further.

There is also another way, if you can team with an user, 2 users can share 1 spot, but unless you are a PRO, is hard to convince others, but you can try, maybe a participant that is short in time may get convinced to team with you for beta-test and fully doodad the map.


yes !!, a lovely dual expanding



upload_2019-3-18_13-14-4.png


 
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The map is kind of done, but i need feedback to improve it.
Terrace Fields - Warcraft 3 Maps - Epic War.com

Feedback can be very subjetive,

1- already told you MO about the goldmines red creeps in another post, so I dont want to be repetitive.
Melee Mapping Contest #4 - 2v2

2- another opinion regarding enviroment, waterfalls are very overused in the map, I would leave them 2-5 key points but not in all the map.
also another IMO, waterfalls are not ment to walk inside them. they are mostly used to decorate cliff, footmans almost disapear inside them, it can be considered distracting., but again is a subjetive statement from my part, do as you wish.


3-you could work the camara limits in some parts (in the north edge, were the perma level 1 are), since they break inmersion, see the reviews of the last contest to know what I am saying. they quit -2 for camara limits, you can also maybe learn much more stuff by reading those reviews
Melee Mapping contest #3 - Results


4- Permanent level 6 in an orange while parment level 5 in a red??
upload_2019-3-20_22-2-7.png
upload_2019-3-20_22-9-28.png

perma level 6 is to much for an orange creep.

5- charged level 2 in green (like the wand of ilusion or sentry wards) they are also, to much, charged level 2 are for orange.
I would put charged level 2 in creep L 13 - 15.

6-unnecesary to much permanents level 1, you will repeat item, I would change some for power up level 1 only

a rule I follow
green creeps level 3 , nothing, exp only
green creeps level 4-6 power up level 1
green creeps level 7-9 perma level 1


upload_2019-3-20_22-14-56.png

7-goldmine creeps should not be in camp mode, because you can construct with not being attacked, probably you put them to avoid aggro, and there goes the aggro, I recomend to put the goldmine more inside in a U region, you can also cliff the back to protect the back of the goldmine if the tree wall ends being to thin.

thats the things I can say for the moment.

but again, all subjetive, I am no pro, so is up to you what do you want with your map.
 
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If the easy camps don't give any drops then there won't be any incentive to do them.
Thats the feedback i got when it was "tome" only.
From few playthroughs myself you can do orange camps asap with both players playing together so green camps are more like snacks to fill between the blanks.
Level 2 charged is supposed to be easy since 2 of 4 drops give items that can scout.

The perma 6 is basicly made to be overpowered for the sake of contesting it, otherwise exe2 would take priority.
Im not sure if people have a problem with it, time will tell.

Since it's a large map i figured you might need that and often that camp will get downprioritised from other objectives.
I might change the exe "camp" setting. I mostly did it to balance AOW creeping vs militias near exe, but then again with 2 players its pretty easy.

Most of the feedback has been simply "fine", so i assume people don't really have a problem with the drops.

I'll re-review my map with the feedbacm in mind.
 
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If the easy camps don't give any drops then there won't be any incentive to do them.
Thats the feedback i got when it was "tome" only.
From few playthroughs myself you can do orange camps asap with both players playing together so green camps are more like snacks to fill between the blanks.
Level 2 charged is supposed to be easy since 2 of 4 drops give items that can scout.

The perma 6 is basicly made to be overpowered for the sake of contesting it, otherwise exe2 would take priority.
Im not sure if people have a problem with it, time will tell.

Since it's a large map i figured you might need that and often that camp will get downprioritised from other objectives.
I might change the exe "camp" setting. I mostly did it to balance AOW creeping vs militias near exe, but then again with 2 players its pretty easy.

Most of the feedback has been simply "fine", so i assume people don't really have a problem with the drops.

I'll re-review my map with the feedbacm in mind.

"If the easy camps don't give any drops then there won't be any incentive to do them."""
I didnt explain well about the low green creeps:
you send your hero solo while you still are recruting a pair of grunts and stuff, just to do something.
the key is they should be near base and easy so you hero will not loose much HP.

"Level 2 charged is supposed to be easy since 2 of 4 drops give items that can scout."
didnt talk about the other to items:
the ligthining wand was / is also a powerfull agresive item (at that point that it was avoided). not shure how is the balance of it now,
only the replenish potion is safe and is almost as a good as a charged 3 potion since you regain both health and mana.
 
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Yeah i understand what you mean about solo hero on green.
Like thats what i thought too, but that was the feedback i got from Gusch, so i trust his opinion.

Level 2 charged might be OP, i don't know.
I do think you need some broken mechanics to make a map fun though, but thats just my opinion.
When you play 2v2 a lot of matchup problems balance itself out anyway
 
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My WIP 2, and i would like to have some feedback regarding the layout
The amount of ways you can engage from seems rather limited when you place big chunky cliffs.
Restricting mobility is usually the biggest damper to fun.

Agree with @Nudl9

the center of the map is crucial to manouver

upload_2019-3-21_11-30-27.png


there are 2 mayor ways of attack, so open a 3rd path in the middle will add fun and increase attack posibilities

Overall I like the layout, maybe add a couple of goblin labs for more fun
 
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Terrace Fields - Warcraft 3 Maps - Epic War.com
Made some changes after feedback from Wtii and Sexytime's 2v2.

v008:
-Added Fountain of Heal in the back where Goblin Lab once was.
-Shop has been moved behind the exe. You can now cut access to it from exe.
-Red camps are now harder.
-Added a serpent/lizard theme to make it more asian myth styled.
-Lowered waterfalls even more.
 

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You weirdos do realize that we still got a whole month to go? I thought I was impatient.

Also some more wip from me:
Lordaeron_Plaza_wip01.jpg Lordaeron_Plaza_wip02.jpg Lordaeron_Plaza_wip03.jpg
But I'm not quite satisfied with this yet.
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

I decided on my map, theme and overall design.
Its not much at the moment, but here it is:

gs1.jpg

Also I'm sad that shipyards don't sell frigates and battleships :(
Or any ships other than the small raft...
 

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No it's because boats are clunky to use and generally disapproved of.
The load range is too short leading to lot of collision problems, not to mention turnrate of the boat, etc.
Ensnare is also super broken against boats, making a boat reliant map OP for Orc.
Not to mention boats has 1500hp.
1500hp.
Think about it.
I could go on.
 
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@mafe
I've got a concern regarding the judges.

Does Hi2Chaco play melee?
I can't for the life of my find a single game he's played besides custom games.
I've looked up his Twitch and Youtube and theres not a single recent game.
He does shoutcasting, but if he's not an active melee player it's hard to take this contest seriously.
 
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Also I'm sad that shipyards don't sell frigates and battleships :(
Or any ships other than the small raft...

The undead shipyard does - but that one is not invulnerable and it is a campaign building. Also the map editor does not see an undead shipyard as a violation of the Melee yes or no decision, but the judges may.


@mafe
I've got a concern regarding the judges.

Does Hi2Chaco play melee?
I can't for the life of my find a single game he's played besides custom games.
I've looked up his Twitch and Youtube and theres not a single recent game.
He does shoutcasting, but if he's not an active melee player it's hard to take this contest seriously.
We got one experienced caster, one experienced player and one experienced map maker in our jury. I think that will provide us with a multifaceted set of reviews.
 
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It's a melee map, which means you should have players that play melee and knows whats up judge it.
Having a mapmaker on board can make sense if that mapmaker has a good track record with maps that are popular or are currently being used in one/any of the competitive map pools.
A caster that doesn't play the game is a completely different thing though.
"Experienced caster" or not, if he doesn't play the game then he doesn't know shit.
You can't become a good player suddenly by just reading a manual and studying, you need to play the actual game to understand things.

If it's like this, i'm certain the judges (lawliet exluded) will just open the editor and look at my map, see a fountain and just give me a negative score, because they have completely disregarded how it plays.
I wouldn't be so concerned if he actively played the game and was up to snuff, but he's really got nothing to show for.
I can't take this competition seriously at all if it's going to be like this.
 
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It's a melee map, which means you should have players that play melee and knows whats up judge it.
Having a mapmaker on board can make sense if that mapmaker has a good track record with maps that are popular or are currently being used in one/any of the competitive map pools.
A caster that doesn't play the game is a completely different thing though.
"Experienced caster" or not, if he doesn't play the game then he doesn't know shit.
You can't become a good player suddenly by just reading a manual and studying, you need to play the actual game to understand things.

If it's like this, i'm certain the judges (lawliet exluded) will just open the editor and look at my map, see a fountain and just give me a negative score, because they have completely disregarded how it plays.
I wouldn't be so concerned if he actively played the game and was up to snuff, but he's really got nothing to show for.
I can't take this competition seriously at all if it's going to be like this.

I do take your concerns seriously, but I don't agree with you about Chaco and I think you're being to hard and also I think your choice of words is inappropriate. I am pretty sure that Chaco knows the game quite well and is up to the current meta even with a reduced personal gaming experience. Please don't forget that there's a reason for this and that Chaco's not just being lazy.

I am really a fan of different points of views and I have been in a few juries for actually not so differnt competitions myself and it was always worth having people from different professions and interest groups in the mix. And I also had to experience not that long ago what happens when such a jury is out of balance.

I don't know how the judges will come to their ratings - I even don't know how the judges of the previous contests did it. By that I mean things like looking at the maps in the editor, playing them against the AI and/or other human beings or how intense they would shuffle through item drops and so on and so on. The reviews give certainly some hints at that, but not the full amount of all the effort behind that. For example WTii made a video about his reviews which alone is over 2 hours long.

If you want to file a formal request to remove or replace Chaco from the jury I would not hold that against you but please reconsider your wording.
 
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It's a melee map, which means you should have players that play melee and knows whats up judge it.
Having a mapmaker on board can make sense if that mapmaker has a good track record with maps that are popular or are currently being used in one/any of the competitive map pools.
A caster that doesn't play the game is a completely different thing though.
"Experienced caster" or not, if he doesn't play the game then he doesn't know shit.
You can't become a good player suddenly by just reading a manual and studying, you need to play the actual game to understand things.

If it's like this, i'm certain the judges (lawliet exluded) will just open the editor and look at my map, see a fountain and just give me a negative score, because they have completely disregarded how it plays.
I wouldn't be so concerned if he actively played the game and was up to snuff, but he's really got nothing to show for.
I can't take this competition seriously at all if it's going to be like this.

With all respect:

Then don´t take it seriously, try to have fun instead, after all is just a game for the free time, not a real life job.


maybe as a caster he saw a lot of bugs and imbalance situation, or even talk to the players about maps, so I think he can have a lot of experience, even if he not play he sees what is going on in the map at real time. When I beta tested 1 map of mine, the caster stated his opinion regarding my bugs based on what he saw in the play, So I give thanks that such experienced user is judging our maps (in the 2nd contest we had to beg map reviers to be judge).

Also when you stated to participate, you agree with the current rules and judges, is like a contract, is a bit late and hard to change things on going.
If mafe selected him , is because he has a criteria, and I trust mafe criteria for judges.

A judge judging could be questioned after the judging not before,there is also judge guides from the Hive that they must follow, if a judge bias, that could be talked after the judging and analizing the way a judge judges.

Perhaps you should talk this matter by PM with @mafe, because here it could be chaotic.

I do take your concerns seriously, but I don't agree with you about Chaco and I think you're being to hard

If you want to file a formal request to remove or replace Chaco from the jury I would not hold that against you but please reconsider your wording.

If there is a formal request to remove the judge in question, I am against it, is very hard to have a judge, and he has a public profile that confirms his experience, wich not everybody has, Wtii said in his video it was the most stressfull thing he did, it was somehow fun but he don´t want to do it again.

No it's because boats are clunky to use and generally disapproved of.
The load range is too short leading to lot of collision problems, not to mention turnrate of the boat, etc.
Ensnare is also super broken against boats, making a boat reliant map OP for Orc.
Not to mention boats has 1500hp.
1500hp.
Think about it.
I could go on.
Exactly why we need more of them.

Thawing Snow, the 1st winer of the 1st melee contest was a boat map, boats are hard to balance, but that doesn´t mean they should totally discarted.
Thawing Snow
 
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Not sure what the colored text is all about, but wow way to miss the point.

The contest has prize money. They have lawliet on board as a judge. I wouldn't enter this contest if not for these two reasons. You want to rag on me for taking it seriously, why? Its a contest with prize money, they want serious entries. If they want serious reviewers maybe they should give an incentive. Like money, or just lowering the treshold for reviewing entries. Not every map review has to be the length of a novel. If a map is bad just put it in the bad tier bin. Theres only 3 winners anyway. Should the maker of the map want feedback they can inquire further personally.

I posted my critism public because i'd like to see arguments for having Hi2Chaco on board.
"he has a public profile that confirms his experience"
Thats exactly what he lacks. He's a shoutcaster that doesn't play the game. I'm not sure how i can make it anymore obvious to you how bad that is for this contest.

A boat map wins a melee contest, this is exactly what worries me. If you think boats are fine then, then go play a map that has it and come back to me with your take on it. Boats are bad for all the reasons i've stated above. I almost forgot the most broken ass thing about boats, which is ensnare surround kills every unit inside. How many races have access to ensnare? I count one. In the end you will pick orc or go air. Anything else is just bad.
 

mafe

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@mafe
I've got a concern regarding the judges.

Does Hi2Chaco play melee?
I can't for the life of my find a single game he's played besides custom games.
I've looked up his Twitch and Youtube and theres not a single recent game.
He does shoutcasting, but if he's not an active melee player it's hard to take this contest seriously.
I found one (well, only one) video of him playing wc3 on his channel:
As you can find here, hi2chaco has a history of playing wc3, which he had to stop due hand injury:
Content Creator Highlight #2: Hi2Chaco
I agree that someone who has never actually played wc3 should not be a judge, but imho this label doesnt apply to him.
I am definitely also playing wc3 when I can afford the time.
Having a mapmaker on board can make sense if that mapmaker has a good track record with maps that are popular or are currently being used in one/any of the competitive map pools.
There's probably only a handful of mapmakers around who would strictly satisfy this criteria. I've asked those which I'm aware of, and they either declined or are participating here.
I mean, I dont even have a map that is currently being used, my most successful map is Fields of Ruin, which was playing in a few Cups, but now no longer is.
If it's like this, i'm certain the judges (lawliet exluded) will just open the editor and look at my map, see a fountain and just give me a negative score, because they have completely disregarded how it plays.
I wouldn't be so concerned if he actively played the game and was up to snuff, but he's really got nothing to show for.
I can't take this competition seriously at all if it's going to be like this.
From my experience, pro players tend to be way more critical with fountains/different tilesets/unsual creeps etc than mapmakers.
For what it's worth, I can promise that I wont discard a map just because it has a fountain. After all, there are fountains on various established 2v2 maps (LT, CG, AV, GW, probably others too).
A boat map wins a melee contest, this is exactly what worries me. If you think boats are fine then, then go play a map that has it and come back to me with your take on it. Boats are bad for all the reasons i've stated above. I almost forgot the most broken ass thing about boats, which is ensnare surround kills every unit inside. How many races have access to ensnare? I count one.
I assume that you are referring to the first melee mapping contest which was won by Thawing Snow? The judges there were the author of Northern Isles/Synergy and the co-author of Concealed Hills, and if you look for them you will find that they certainly knew their stuff. Their reviews should still be available.

As I'm a judge, I'm not going to get into a specific argument /boats or other stuff) about what I think are good or bad ideas for maps. I've written a guide about some of my thoughts melee mapping; you participants can use to get an idea about what's probably important to. However the guide is for 1v1, and 2v2 is in many ways a different story, but nevertheless it is available in my signature.
The contest has prize money. They have lawliet on board as a judge. I wouldn't enter this contest if not for these two reasons. You want to rag on me for taking it seriously, why? Its a contest with prize money, they want serious entries. If they want serious reviewers maybe they should give an incentive. Like money, or just lowering the treshold for reviewing entries. Not every map review has to be the length of a novel. If a map is bad just put it in the bad tier bin. Theres only 3 winners anyway. Should the maker of the map want feedback they can inquire further personally.
I (and I assume the other judges, participants etc) are doing this mostly because the like wc3, and not for the money. It's nice to have some prize money to show that the contest is just all playing around.


I hope that this answers your question, but if not feel free to ask again. It's probably inevitable that we wont all of us agree on every single matter, but I hope that you are now a little more convinced that this contest wont go towards the wrong direction.
 
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