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Melee Mapping Contest #4 - 2v2

Discussion in 'Contest Archive' started by mafe, Mar 13, 2019.

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  1. Knecht

    Knecht

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    @sentrywiz Don't make boats the only possible way for players to get out of their base. Work with shallow water and clever layouts to make the boats more viable but still have the option for players to not use them at all. And make the middle symmetrical.
     
  2. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    "As you can find here, hi2chaco has a history of playing wc3, which he had to stop due hand injury:
    Content Creator Highlight #2: Hi2Chaco
    I agree that someone who has never actually played wc3 should not be a judge, but imho this label doesnt apply to him."

    Thank you, that was more like an answer is was looking for.
    It still feels iffy to me, but by now you know my stance on it.
    At least reconsider next time you do a contest.
    If you want to have contest entries eligible for competitive play you probably want pro players to review them.
    Exactly because they're picky and choosy.

    The thing about the boat map, in can understand why it would win. It looks like a fun map and probably plays very unique, however if you look at the rating criterias.
    Balance 50%
    Terrain 35%
    Creativity 15%

    The creativity part is like a small 15%. Balance is a whopping 50%. So to me it seems obvious that the map doesn't fit these criterias. It just seems like personal bias towards the map having a fun gimmick.
    Which is not wrong by any means, but your way of rating maps should be more obvious and judges should instead agree on a certain way to rate maps together. In some ways i feel like the rating system is rudamentary and maps should be reviewed by the total sum of its content. Maps can be good in various ways. Either by looking appealing, just being fun even though balance is broken or by having an interesting dynamic.

    "I mean, I dont even have a map that is currently being used, my most successful map is Fields of Ruin, which was playing in a few Cups, but now no longer is."
    I think this fits the criteria really. I just think it would be wierd to have a scenario with a judge whose melee maps were never played.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  3. Loner-Magixxar

    Loner-Magixxar

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    Hey guys! Just wanted to say that I'm dropping out (personal matters). There was someone in the waiting list. Let him in and remove my name. Thank you!
     
  4. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    sad to hear, but well , this kind of things happen, good luck

    If you think I miss the point, my apology, english is not my native language, is hard to me to read others ideas and explain my own ideas.

    "and judges should instead agree on a certain way to rate maps together."

    I understand that in all Hiveworkshop contest, Judges don´t talk between them during the contest, so it would be more objetive, and not that 1 judge bias others judges opinions.

    With that, a judge may penalize a lot the aggro, while other may penalize more the gaps in the trees, hipothetically talking.

    "In some ways i feel like the rating system is rudamentary and maps should be reviewed by the total sum of its content."

    thats the system we used in the 1st , 2nd, and 3rd contest, so far it worked.

    there is also points of a public poll but thats mandatory, public polls must be done in Hive contest.
    And the 1st contest was money prize plus T shirt of Back to warcraft.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  5. Original idea was only boats, but I thought frigates & battleships too.
    Need to test first, then decide if @Knecht and @Nudl9's criticism is constructive or not.
    I have my own worries about the AI, if it can use boats at all.

    @Nudl9 - gotta try new ideas. I've not played the map @Ragnaros17 linked
    but the mention of it having boats does add a component of warcraft that was
    there in the beginning, but didn't transition into WC3. I hope reforged melee has boats. I really do.

    Also, money was a surprise to me, and it sounds real nice to be paid to make a map :)
    But I don't think anyone here does it for the money.

    @Knecht - well, yes there will be a way to traverse in shallow waters but boats will be faster and deadlier.
    I don't think boats can pass under bridges. That is another reforged hope.
    Yes the middle needs much work. Map is barely 5%

    @XanderD - damn nice! Just tried it, works with all shipyards but only undead one has frigates.

    Question to judges:
    Is undead shipyard ok to be used as neutral passive?
     
  6. The_Silent

    The_Silent

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    I don't think you can place special and campaign units in your map or it will violate the "melee" map flag. So Frigates and battleships is probably not possible.
     
  7. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    Undead shipyards are not invulnerable, you can attack it and destroy it, compared to normal shipyard,

    Is true that it says melee map yes when put an undead shipyard as neutral pasive.
    I tested it just now, I don´t know what to say, technically is legal, but as gameplay is just like going outside the melee thing.


    I do not recomend it, because of that, because is not invulnerable as neutral building.
     
  8. Knecht

    Knecht

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    @sentrywiz AI can't use boats. They won't, sadly, ever traverse under bridges due to w3 pathing (unless there are custom triggers). And the boat map that Rag linked was made by me :cgrin: I'd say you can trust my words when it comes to boats in wc3.
     
  9. The_Silent

    The_Silent

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    It removes the "melee map" icon in map selection screen im pretty sure (does not have wc3 installed on thes laptop). Which technically makes it "not legal", by Blizzards definition of melee map anyway.
     
  10. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    shipyard


    upload_2019-3-22_16-26-44.png
    upload_2019-3-22_16-28-55.png



    the melee map yes is still there

    edit: my map updated, still a long way to go.
    detected some aggro on green creeps while testing. test helps a lot.

    Stairs of destiny | HIVE
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  11. XanderD

    XanderD

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    The AI won't use Taverns either and only buys Zeppelins from the Goblin Labs - so never use a Shredder or Sappers - and never hire any unit from the mercenary camps either. So that would be a definite issue for every map that has some island(s) only accessible by boat and no Goblin Lab either when playing against the AI. Also there are other things the AI doesn't do like destroying Gates or Rock Chunks which are used on maps like Avalanche to block off gold mines. Or remember the very old map Adrenaline where all players are separated by trees but the AI does not destroy trees intentionally to make a pathway and as a Night Elf not even unintentionally (except with a keeper to summon treants). And so on and so on.
    In short there's a lot the AI doesn't do and thus can even sometimes by skillful players be manipulated enough to pull off stunts like winning against 11 insane AI players even though each of them has double income. Not to mention that the AI never plays the current meta... such rebels!
     
  12. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    "do like destroying Gates or Rock Chunks which are used on maps like Avalanche to block off gold mines."

    I put rock chunks to my goldmines in the 3rd melee contest considering it was nice like starcraft 2 maps, didnt end well....

    also in paired goldmines, AI can also steal gold from your goldmine.
     
  13. It doesn't violate melee map rules, but the fact it can be destroyed is interesting.
    Very interesting in fact, since frigates are only bought from there and once gone
    its gone. So ship supremacy might be my map's theme...

    Oh snap. In that case, I'm gonna use your map as an inspiration, because it looks
    really well thought out and executed. I'm sad AI doesn't use them, but like @XanderD says,
    AI doesn't do many other things either so it might not be a problem.

    @Ragnaros17 AI nightelf/undead can literally bankrupt ally orc/human players sometimes too,
    by entangling the gold mine.
     
  14. FranzVader_CZ

    FranzVader_CZ

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  15. XanderD

    XanderD

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    I tested something about boats:
     
  16. Good one, doesn't look like AI uses the raft for transport.
    Uses the frigate though.
     
  17. Keito

    Keito

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    WIP 2

    Dunno how to upload to media library. When I had nothing in there, I could like, go there somehow, but now me just confuzzled. Just used tinypic instead.

    [​IMG]


    Tis called "The Consortium"

    "A smuggling and trading ring set up in the vast shattered worlds of Outland by the Etherium. One of the few places of civilization remaining in this broken world. Control this, and you will control all trade in Outland!"

    That's the concept at least for now. Dunno about tiles n stuff yet n might change n mix up tileset or trees.
     
  18. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    already looks great!!, I really like the fire chasm, maybe I will add one in my map, I need to fill a lot of space in the borders.

    edit:
    fire
    upload_2019-3-24_15-16-49.png


    I am glad I am not the only one doing an Outland/Black citadel theme map. the floating rocks are the best of that tile-set
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  19. Here is my WIP #2
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    "i got something new for ya cowboy murauder - the latest word in big badda boom hardware."

    then raynor respond quote
    "i ain't sure this is the best time to be experamenting swann"

    1) Ramps and paths are small to bases. Tower the entrance and thats it like Leonidas in Termopilas.
    2) Paths leading to goldmines are small too.

    3) Goblin markets? tavern? merc. camps ? goblin labs?, creeps??

    -I wouldn´t recommend you a boat map in melee competence since boats are hard to reach the level it had Thawing Snow from Knetch in the first competence. I did a boat map once, but still I would stick to a normal play in melee.

    Boat formula is like transform water in oil, Thawing snow was an interesting success, but to pull new balanced formulas maybe is really hard requering a lot of test and fail (well from my 21 maps , only 1 I can call it a success).

    Also in terms of terraining, a lot of water (because is just only water) you are loosing both balance and enviroment points (doodads, waterfalls that stuff).

    - But probably you will stick to the boat idea till end, so I can only sugest you that you try to keep the boats but make a melee layout (with taverns, merc camps, gobl labs, goblin shops), maybe like this.

    Apojii Islands v 1.04

    is a very prototype map, unbalanced but it may lead to an interesting boat map develop.

    Apojii Islands v 1.04
    "it's pretty much experimental at this point but nevertheless can be a prototype for future better maps."

    if you are still with the boats idea I can only recommend you that, that you try to design a normal melee map with shallow water and have the boats to go here and there like my map Apojii islands,
    still entagle surround will be there, but if you can make all the others things work, it may work a bit.

    And I would really discard the undead shipyards because it may end in water artilliery bombardment hardly to counter,
    It remembers me RA2 RA3 were the aircraft carriers, rocket launchers ships bugs you a lot from long distances and destroyed your fast.

    WC3 was not designed balanced as a water game like WC2 or RA2 and RA3... for water games play RA3 is the best, because you can also have a water base

    Imagine melee as being in a small room doing target practicing with 9mm, that undead shipyards shure are fun, but is like a granade, dont want to try it inside that small room.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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