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Melee Mapping Contest #3 - 4 vs 4

Discussion in 'Contest Archive' started by Mr.Henci, Dec 1, 2018.

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  1. mmtt

    mmtt

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    Day ago i made list of rules for melee maps, because there was a lot of confusion on what you can do. And after received feedback i improved my list and made clear difference between what is disallowed and what is just not good idea.

    If you have any suggestions for additions or improvements let me know and i can update list.

    List of rules for melee maps (breaking some of this rules won't set your map to custom).
    - No Object editor
    - No Trigger editor
    - No Sound editor
    - No AI editor
    - No Object editor
    - No Import Manager
    - No change to Gameplay Constants
    - No change to Game Interface
    - No campaign units, Special units or Heroes placed on map
    - No blight placed with terrain editor
    - Map properties - options - "Hide minimap in preview screens" and "Masked areas are partially visible" not allowed and "Use terrain fog" not recommended.
    - No changes to loading screen
    - No "Fixed starting locations" and no changes in general to players (only amount of them)
    - Changes to Scenario properties - "Forces", "Techtree", "Abilities" and "Upgrades" not allowed. "Ally priorities" are allowed
    - No placed player units (buildings or heroes) only starting locations
    - Each player needs 1 gold mine next to starting location (1 gold mine not 2)
    - There should be trees nearby starting locations of players
    - Some space around starting locations for buildings so players can build stuff
    - Place orange camps on player starting locations (they will be removed automatically if is player slot is not empty)
    - Fill out "Map Description"

    Stuff that is allowed, but someone might ask:
    - Modifying tilesets is allowed
    - Random Groups are allowed
    - Item Tables allowed
    - Regions allowed (for way points Edit: it turned out that they are called Way Gates)
    - Changes to gold amount in gold mines is alowed (if they are done properly no some random numbers, for example: red camps can have little more gold than orange)

    Stuff that is allowed but makes it hard for you be taken seriously:
    - Neutral passive player can use only Neutral passive units and Hostile passive player can use only Hostile passive units
    - No items placed on map only from killing Neutral Hostile
    - Neutral passive can't drop items on death
    - At least 1 more gold mine per player for expansions (recommended more) and they must be guarded by orange camp (red camps can be used next to gold mines but not for
    main and natural expansion.
    - if you put loot items on banshees, if the banshee does possession, the loot is lost so not good idea
    - No gaps between trees, small units can hide or even walk and pass a forest.

    Stuff that can make your map better if you do it, but not required:
    - At least 1 or 2 tavern should be on map (you can put more)
    - There should be critters on map (for undead they like critters)
    - Dont place patching blockers outside of map they have no effect outside of map

    Stuff not worth doing or made useless by previous rules:
    - Campaign editor obviously
    - Cameras are uselles in melee maps

    There you go, Enjoy
     
  2. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    melee stuff debate


    -ask all you need. I always recomend the tutorials, reviews, see others maps,look gameplays in youtube., because is the best way to learn, even learn the mistakes of others.


    1) the list is very good indeed, but it can`t cover everything that means balance, is just imposible. thats why there are tutorials that are long wall of text explaining things
    and even the tutorial wont cover all, there is something called self experience wich is gained by making mistakes (I screw it in an olympic way with bases with 3 ways and no proper walling option) or reading others mistakes.
    In the frontpage there are links to those tutorials.

    @mmtt

    Download Swamped Temple from Anomines, wich is now a Blizzard map (I just download it from this site), first expanding 12500, the second and contested 14000.

    goldmines can have from 10000 to 16000. those are somehow safe numbers.
    2500 is few and 50000 is a lot.

    my mistake for not writting properly. when I said a creep level 8 (usually talking creep is the hole creep, unit is a unit that belongs to the creep, there is a concept called creeping route, or AOW creeping, ), I was saying a green creep wich the sum of all levels is 8, so a green creep looting a permanent or charged level 6 is bad for balance, with that loot you can kill an enemy fast.
    I mean the first creep you kill with the hero and two units.
    The formula I wrote is pretty much the safe option (also it is in the tutorial)

    yes of course were just balance guide not "rules that change the melee category"
    but I was talking/ debating/ quoting mmtt wich a few statments from him where statements werent rules but guides for balance (also I responded when I saw that goldmine gold can´t be changed):

    - At least 1 more gold mine per player for expansions (recommended more) and they must be guarded by orange camp (red camps can be used next to gold mines but not for main and natural expansion. (there are maps with no expansion options and 30.000 gold, not recommended)
    - There should be critters on map (for undead they like critters) (thats for the rod of necromancy creeping, high recommended but not a rule)
    - At least 1 tavern must be on map (I recomend at least 2 or more) (all ROC maps didnt have tavern in the first place, still high recommended, not a rule)
    - Place orange camps on player starting locations (they will be removed automatically if is player slot is not empty) (or red)
    (I think I saw a map with unguarded goldmines players in islands or goldmines not defended walled by wood reached with saw machines, but not recommended at all).


    my overall apology if I created confusion

     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  3. mafe

    mafe

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    I think this is getting somewhat out of control. This thread should be to discuss the contests itself. I understand that the question of "what is a melee map?" is of course important in the process, but I think it should be fairly clear by now.
    So while I think that this discussion has its point, but is not the main topic, maybe we could at least put it in spoilers.
     
  4. mmtt

    mmtt

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    Yes i think we have that covered at this point. But a lot of people didn't started yet, or are at beginning of work and there is not that much to talk about jet. But so far those few posted WIPs look pretty good. I think i did my map little too quickly, when i started doing it i didnt realize how much time i have, i really should read month too not only day.
     
  5. XanderD

    XanderD

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    Hello there!
    I'd like to participate!
    yours
    Xander
     
  6. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I think people lack common sense to what melee means. Maybe, they only played the campaign mode?
     
  7. Mr.Henci

    Mr.Henci

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    I have this feeling too. Like what we are evem talking about here. Anybody who played at least one melee in their lives knows what melee means.
     
  8. mmtt

    mmtt

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    It all snowbaled out of few questions just because there are no specific rules also It was maybe unclear for some people if it Has to be strict melee or melee like.
     
  9. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    melee stuff debate


    "if it Has to be strict melee or melee like"

    theres not such thing as "strict melee or melee like"

    there is unbalanced melee (unbalanced, and no-playable for competitions, or it can be played for fun, with friends and all ok for fun)

    and there is competitive melee (balanced, aiming for fair competion, 4 races balanced).

    now if take your map and add tons of triggers, player units, already builded base, add custom units, is an altered melee.There is an altered melee category here with tons of things.

    the first 2 melee contest were 1vs1 competitive melee contest.
    Now the third melee contest is a competitive 4v4 and since the objetive is that from 20 maps, 1 or 2 maybe, with luck and if Elune wish it, maybe a Hiveworkshop map can reach Blizzard Ladder before Reforged launch, Balance is the key


    Most of the users in the "melee comunity" played melee or designed a 1vs1 melee map.

    If someone never did a melee map before (not even a 1vs1 in 96x64 in 2-5 days) or played melee, start with a 4v4 is like a huge challange.
    Still if a newby user reads the tutorials, search and study others melee maps, the reviews, the mistakes, see youtube plays and reviews.
    It can get all the knoledge he/she will need in no time. Actually melee theory is not that hard, still is easy to make mistakes.

     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  10. As a fellow modder I'd say that even though I find melee maps boring to play,
    making them is entirely different story. That's why I personally asked if we can do variations.

    And I assume other people are bored playing the same old "balanced" melee maps and would
    rather spice it up.

    @Ragnaros17 - I had no idea this was secretly a "make Blizzard proud" map. Which is great,
    but it would take someone who has overplayed melee to the extent he/she understands all
    the quirks that make melee fun. And not all of us are that focused on perfection,
    I personally I'm doing it for fun and my map will in no way be balanced like a melee map
    "should?". But it will be a fun 4v4 melee map. Isn't that good enough?

    Here are my WIPS
     

    Attached Files:

  11. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Guys, please, it says melee, not altered melee.
    Nobody stops you from doing stuff in your vision out of this contest.
     
  12. Loner-Magixxar

    Loner-Magixxar

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    After all these discussions, I made a lot of changes to my map. I'll update my WIP soon.
     
  13. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    more melee talk


    And I assume other people are bored playing the same old "balanced" melee maps and would
    rather spice it up.

    Actually the "old melee maps " where very very unbalanced. Competitive melee theory started when users started to play the game for serius contest. Actually few maps are used for contest (and tons of fun unbalanced maps had been made), since players can veto a map. NE can veto a map if doesn´t have AOW creeping routes, Undead can veto if doesn´t have critters for the rod of necromancy creeping, and tons of others stuff.

    I had no idea this was secretly a "make Blizzard proud"

    It was no secretly, there was a pre-contest discusion in the arena forum that start like in the 7 november before launch.
    There the rules were discussed, and the category 4v4 was voted,


    Next Melee Mapping Contest: Pre-Contest discussion
    3rd Melee contest poll question

    "And not all of us are that focused on perfection,"

    If you see my maps, you will see I was more focused in terraining than in balance.
    Still to get approved, I had to consider balance, soner or later balance forms part of a mapper.

    even if an user doesn´t aim for perfection for Blizzard or ladder play, put effort to try to win a badge may be another good reason...
    (reach Blizzard is probably the dream that any melee mapper that did 1-2 melee maps or more).

    I personally I'm doing it for fun and my map will in no way be balanced like a melee map"

    Is a pity that you are putting a lot of effort but your balance score may be low if you don´t consider balance.


    "Balance Is the map balanced for both teams? Are the positions and distance between points of interest fair? Does the map allow the 4 races to be balanced? Consider balance when implementing the pathing, resources, creep camps, and item drops. 50/100"

    Balance has 50 points in this contest, thats why I am sugesting balance balance and balance. (in the last 2 melee contest, balance also has 50 points).

    But it will be a fun 4v4 melee map. Isn't that good enough?

    Thats will depend in the score you are aiming to gain. If you don´t consider balance, not even basic guides, your score may be very low and your map may be far behind from the others maps. You will be happy in putting a lot of effort just to get a low result? I just trying to convince you that your map will worth more if you consider certain guides for balance.
    (I tell you this because I hit low score in the last contest, and I considered balance, and studied it a lot, screw it some basic points like base layout, the first expanding, goblin shops and teleport staffs, the feeling of being fall behind is not very nice.)

    "Here are my WIPS"

    If you want a sugestion, is more easy to put neutral buildings and starting positions first and terrain later.
    Put the neutrals first and terrain later is good trick to not make mistakes in simetry or space.
    By looking red player base I am wondering if 8 players can fit??

    Do what makes you happy, but is a common thing here that experience users want to help those who doesn´t have that much experience (share the knoledge, make the melee comunity of the Hiveworkshop more strong). If you ask feedback probably some people will try to give you hints to improve your balance.

    good luck

     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  14. Loner-Magixxar

    Loner-Magixxar

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    After reading more texts and watching some videos and tinkering more thoroughly, I ended up nuking my map :( And I don't have the nerve or spare time to start over.

    You can cross my name off. But it was an eye-opening experience. And thank you for your feeback.

    The only thing that got me into this contest was this qoute: "Does the map bring something new or creative to the table?" But any new thing I had in my mind was useless.

    The rules were so strict, and after investigating the "balancing" aspect further, I get it now why. It has to be this way. And I totally agree with it. Good luck all the contestants.

    Hope to see one of these maps in Reforged :)
     
  15. Mr.Henci

    Mr.Henci

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    @Loner-Magixxar thats a sad new to hear. Are you sure abuot it? You map looks promising from the minimap screens that you have posted previouslly. Perhaps if you send me a map file, I can give you enought feedback for improving your map. Consider it, there is still a time, the contest is far from over and you might change your opinion by then.
     
  16. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    A sugestion, is to soon to drop (usually people drops 1-3 days after contest is going to end), there still 1 month time. Think about it.

    Balance is not that hard once you have read about it (in the 2nd melee contest was that I read to know balance, until then I just mapped for fun and terraining). But is true that is better to read balance before mapping blindly.

    Balance in 4v4 is more easy, since teams must be balanced, you probably read 1vs1 balance wich is as you said very strict.

    You don´t need to start over, By mirrowing terrain and wood you can maybe fix somethings and then copy paste.

    About creativity. The creativity is half enviroment, half balance.
    As example Ascrelle is doing a boat map, I have very small map (because I want very reduced walking distances above all)

    Zeppelings and Zappers, and waygates have a lot of potential.

    you can do a pastebin, put it here, and as @Mr.Henci said we can give you feedback to improve.

    Another sugestion: mapping saturates (a lot) take 1 day or 2 of pause helps a lot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  17. mafe

    mafe

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    Great news: The wc3 gym discord will do a 4v4 event, inviting people to play 4v4s specificially because of our contest! If you have a playable WIP, you can meet there today at 9 pm CET ( about 5 hours from this post) and hopefully have some people playtest it.
    Even if you dont have time, you can just drop your map in the discord there (ask cepheid to pin it in the channel) , so that some players can try it out and ideally give you some feedback.
    I will be there definitely.

    Link to wc3 gym: Discord - Free voice and text chat for gamers
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  18. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    they will acept wips with all terrain flat (and incomplete), but with the neutrals buildings, wood , creeps and loot ready to play test??

    I think I can do it, my wip is pretty much in that state. Just some wood here and there and it can be played.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  19. mafe

    mafe

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    Sure they will. It is very different community from here, they care about gameplay first and foremost usually. I played one test game there: Half of my map had only trees as doodads and just 2-3 different tiles. One guy said "nice athmosphere" nevertheless, and except for that comment they only talked about which creeps they thought were good or bad.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  20. mmtt

    mmtt

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    I will try to put my map there, i made there account and now i just need to figure out how it works.
     
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