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Melee Mapping Contest #4 - 2v2

Discussion in 'Contest Archive' started by mafe, Mar 13, 2019.

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  1. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    The amount of ways you can engage from seems rather limited when you place big chunky cliffs.
    Restricting mobility is usually the biggest damper to fun.
     
  2. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    Agree with @Nudl9

    the center of the map is crucial to manouver

    upload_2019-3-21_11-30-27.png

    there are 2 mayor ways of attack, so open a 3rd path in the middle will add fun and increase attack posibilities

    Overall I like the layout, maybe add a couple of goblin labs for more fun
     
  3. mmtt

    mmtt

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    [​IMG]
    Dont ask i dont know
     
  4. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Terrace Fields - Warcraft 3 Maps - Epic War.com
    Made some changes after feedback from Wtii and Sexytime's 2v2.

    v008:
    -Added Fountain of Heal in the back where Goblin Lab once was.
    -Shop has been moved behind the exe. You can now cut access to it from exe.
    -Red camps are now harder.
    -Added a serpent/lizard theme to make it more asian myth styled.
    -Lowered waterfalls even more.
     

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  5. Mr.Henci

    Mr.Henci

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    Some early WIP, just some basic layout, still undecided about tileset/size.
    WIP#1

    EarlyWIP.png
     
  6. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    Looks great,
    Violet Outpost

    You could do Dalaran like the first melee contest, it may give you luck.
     
  7. XanderD

    XanderD

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    You weirdos do realize that we still got a whole month to go? I thought I was impatient.

    Also some more wip from me:
    Lordaeron_Plaza_wip01.jpg Lordaeron_Plaza_wip02.jpg Lordaeron_Plaza_wip03.jpg
    But I'm not quite satisfied with this yet.
     
  8. mmtt

    mmtt

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    That month is for balance, testing and slower people
     
  9. XanderD

    XanderD

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    Now I feel old.
     
  10. I decided on my map, theme and overall design.
    Its not much at the moment, but here it is:

    gs1.jpg

    Also I'm sad that shipyards don't sell frigates and battleships :(
    Or any ships other than the small raft...
     

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  11. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    I wouldn't recommend boat maps.
    They aren't played for a reason.
     
  12. Exactly why we need more of them.
     
  13. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    No it's because boats are clunky to use and generally disapproved of.
    The load range is too short leading to lot of collision problems, not to mention turnrate of the boat, etc.
    Ensnare is also super broken against boats, making a boat reliant map OP for Orc.
    Not to mention boats has 1500hp.
    1500hp.
    Think about it.
    I could go on.
     
  14. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    @mafe
    I've got a concern regarding the judges.

    Does Hi2Chaco play melee?
    I can't for the life of my find a single game he's played besides custom games.
    I've looked up his Twitch and Youtube and theres not a single recent game.
    He does shoutcasting, but if he's not an active melee player it's hard to take this contest seriously.
     
  15. XanderD

    XanderD

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    The undead shipyard does - but that one is not invulnerable and it is a campaign building. Also the map editor does not see an undead shipyard as a violation of the Melee yes or no decision, but the judges may.


    We got one experienced caster, one experienced player and one experienced map maker in our jury. I think that will provide us with a multifaceted set of reviews.
     
  16. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    It's a melee map, which means you should have players that play melee and knows whats up judge it.
    Having a mapmaker on board can make sense if that mapmaker has a good track record with maps that are popular or are currently being used in one/any of the competitive map pools.
    A caster that doesn't play the game is a completely different thing though.
    "Experienced caster" or not, if he doesn't play the game then he doesn't know shit.
    You can't become a good player suddenly by just reading a manual and studying, you need to play the actual game to understand things.

    If it's like this, i'm certain the judges (lawliet exluded) will just open the editor and look at my map, see a fountain and just give me a negative score, because they have completely disregarded how it plays.
    I wouldn't be so concerned if he actively played the game and was up to snuff, but he's really got nothing to show for.
    I can't take this competition seriously at all if it's going to be like this.
     
  17. XanderD

    XanderD

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    I do take your concerns seriously, but I don't agree with you about Chaco and I think you're being to hard and also I think your choice of words is inappropriate. I am pretty sure that Chaco knows the game quite well and is up to the current meta even with a reduced personal gaming experience. Please don't forget that there's a reason for this and that Chaco's not just being lazy.

    I am really a fan of different points of views and I have been in a few juries for actually not so differnt competitions myself and it was always worth having people from different professions and interest groups in the mix. And I also had to experience not that long ago what happens when such a jury is out of balance.

    I don't know how the judges will come to their ratings - I even don't know how the judges of the previous contests did it. By that I mean things like looking at the maps in the editor, playing them against the AI and/or other human beings or how intense they would shuffle through item drops and so on and so on. The reviews give certainly some hints at that, but not the full amount of all the effort behind that. For example WTii made a video about his reviews which alone is over 2 hours long.

    If you want to file a formal request to remove or replace Chaco from the jury I would not hold that against you but please reconsider your wording.
     
  18. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    With all respect:

    Then don´t take it seriously, try to have fun instead, after all is just a game for the free time, not a real life job.


    maybe as a caster he saw a lot of bugs and imbalance situation, or even talk to the players about maps, so I think he can have a lot of experience, even if he not play he sees what is going on in the map at real time. When I beta tested 1 map of mine, the caster stated his opinion regarding my bugs based on what he saw in the play, So I give thanks that such experienced user is judging our maps (in the 2nd contest we had to beg map reviers to be judge).

    Also when you stated to participate, you agree with the current rules and judges, is like a contract, is a bit late and hard to change things on going.
    If mafe selected him , is because he has a criteria, and I trust mafe criteria for judges.

    A judge judging could be questioned after the judging not before,there is also judge guides from the Hive that they must follow, if a judge bias, that could be talked after the judging and analizing the way a judge judges.

    Perhaps you should talk this matter by PM with @mafe, because here it could be chaotic.

    If there is a formal request to remove the judge in question, I am against it, is very hard to have a judge, and he has a public profile that confirms his experience, wich not everybody has, Wtii said in his video it was the most stressfull thing he did, it was somehow fun but he don´t want to do it again.

    Thawing Snow, the 1st winer of the 1st melee contest was a boat map, boats are hard to balance, but that doesn´t mean they should totally discarted.
    Thawing Snow
     
  19. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Not sure what the colored text is all about, but wow way to miss the point.

    The contest has prize money. They have lawliet on board as a judge. I wouldn't enter this contest if not for these two reasons. You want to rag on me for taking it seriously, why? Its a contest with prize money, they want serious entries. If they want serious reviewers maybe they should give an incentive. Like money, or just lowering the treshold for reviewing entries. Not every map review has to be the length of a novel. If a map is bad just put it in the bad tier bin. Theres only 3 winners anyway. Should the maker of the map want feedback they can inquire further personally.

    I posted my critism public because i'd like to see arguments for having Hi2Chaco on board.
    "he has a public profile that confirms his experience"
    Thats exactly what he lacks. He's a shoutcaster that doesn't play the game. I'm not sure how i can make it anymore obvious to you how bad that is for this contest.

    A boat map wins a melee contest, this is exactly what worries me. If you think boats are fine then, then go play a map that has it and come back to me with your take on it. Boats are bad for all the reasons i've stated above. I almost forgot the most broken ass thing about boats, which is ensnare surround kills every unit inside. How many races have access to ensnare? I count one. In the end you will pick orc or go air. Anything else is just bad.
     
  20. mafe

    mafe

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    I found one (well, only one) video of him playing wc3 on his channel:

    As you can find here, hi2chaco has a history of playing wc3, which he had to stop due hand injury:
    Content Creator Highlight #2: Hi2Chaco
    I agree that someone who has never actually played wc3 should not be a judge, but imho this label doesnt apply to him.
    I am definitely also playing wc3 when I can afford the time.
    There's probably only a handful of mapmakers around who would strictly satisfy this criteria. I've asked those which I'm aware of, and they either declined or are participating here.
    I mean, I dont even have a map that is currently being used, my most successful map is Fields of Ruin, which was playing in a few Cups, but now no longer is.
    From my experience, pro players tend to be way more critical with fountains/different tilesets/unsual creeps etc than mapmakers.
    For what it's worth, I can promise that I wont discard a map just because it has a fountain. After all, there are fountains on various established 2v2 maps (LT, CG, AV, GW, probably others too).
    I assume that you are referring to the first melee mapping contest which was won by Thawing Snow? The judges there were the author of Northern Isles/Synergy and the co-author of Concealed Hills, and if you look for them you will find that they certainly knew their stuff. Their reviews should still be available.

    As I'm a judge, I'm not going to get into a specific argument /boats or other stuff) about what I think are good or bad ideas for maps. I've written a guide about some of my thoughts melee mapping; you participants can use to get an idea about what's probably important to. However the guide is for 1v1, and 2v2 is in many ways a different story, but nevertheless it is available in my signature.
    I (and I assume the other judges, participants etc) are doing this mostly because the like wc3, and not for the money. It's nice to have some prize money to show that the contest is just all playing around.


    I hope that this answers your question, but if not feel free to ask again. It's probably inevitable that we wont all of us agree on every single matter, but I hope that you are now a little more convinced that this contest wont go towards the wrong direction.
     
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