Eastern Kingdoms 24 player FFA Edition

[Wark]

"Frost Wyrms & Gryphons now do MAGIC DAMAGE like how they should."

Sounds like you started making this map before the updates.
In Map Properties under the "Options" section, there's a field called "Game Data Set".
To make all other melee units use the latest object data (for balance purposes), select "Melee (Latest Patch)" there.

I also suggest making undead buildings require blight again. It's not a bug and is meant to balance that race.
Else, this'll be more of an altered melee map.

 

[sharicasmi]

"Frost Wyrms & Gryphons now do MAGIC DAMAGE like how they should."

Sounds like you started making this map before the updates.
In Map Properties under the "Options" section, there's a field called "Game Data Set".
To make all other melee units use the latest object data (for balance purposes), select "Melee (Latest Patch)" there.

I also suggest making undead buildings require blight again. It's not a bug and is meant to balance that race.
Else, this'll be more of an altered melee map.

Ah tyvm sir. I myself only just realized this last week. I changed it to 'use latest melee patch data' some time in 1.41 last week.
At first I wasn't sure that the two were connected in some way, but as an old SC2 rpg mapper I should have realized that that was the same as object dependency data.

The blight bug still occurs in 24man games with maps above 256x256, and therefore the blight requirement will still be removed from undead buildings until blizzard decides to hotfix this game breaking issue. I once saw someone build 4 necropolis and survive for 2.5 hours in a 4 hour session by repeatedly building and upgrading his necropolis because that was all he could do because of the undead blight bug. He even took 3 island expos by just summoning a necropolis>upgrading it>repairing it untill it can kill creeps.

When i first heard about it i said "LOL yeah right." Then I watched the replay and this guy joking about spamming acolytes/being a religious community etc. The Undead blight bug is a serious issue and needs to be acknowledged. You are supposed to be able to build on your own blight or else the game is broken. I will add the blight requirement back to undead buildings once it's fixed.

[edit] Blight bug doesn't actually occur until games are above 288x288 it turns out. [/edit]

 

[JSRGN]

Wark, you don't understand what the problem was. We have multiple replays to the effect of undead players being UNABLE TO BUILD ON THEIR OWN BLIGHT. They could only build necropolises in their own bases. We have replays of some poor bastards creeping out expansions with mercenaries and massed acolytes in the hopes that they could build there, only to be denied. Some aggravating bug was ruining the games for some players, and this needed to be done, barring a final fix to what we call 'the Blight Bug'.

 

[Wark]

I looked at the map, and yea, sure enough, the blight requirements are all messed up.
I tried poking around your game constants, looking at the tileset, imports, all internal properties possible, even went as far as experimenting with the Acolyte's Restore ability, and nothing.
My only conclusion is that something got corrupted somewhere. I don't know how to fix that problem.

Other than that, you got a few tree types on the map without increased health.
In particular: sunken ruins, lordaeron fall trees, and some ashenvales trees.
I also noticed some creeps attack certain start locations when the map runs.

 

[Jampion]

The map size is 192 x 352. If I recall correctly blight only works up to 256 map size.
I though they would fix this bug now that map sizes up to 480 are possible, but it seems like they didn't judging from the bugs you report.

 

[sharicasmi]

"I also noticed some creeps attack certain start locations when the map runs." I'll look into that issue.
The only trees which are intended to have boosted health are the lordaeron summer and the northrend trees. Lordaeron fall trees are intended to mark/hide creeps.
@Wark Nothing is corrupted. This is just how WC3 maps work when they're above a certain size.

 

[Sentienl101]

ive tried to run the map on WC3 FT and everytime i run it my game crashes should i run it on WC3 RC or no.

 

[sharicasmi]

ive tried to run the map on WC3 FT and everytime i run it my game crashes should i run it on WC3 RC or no.

Have you updated your WC3 to the newest client? This map is a frozen throne map and will not work with ROC

 

[Sentienl101]

where do i get the latest client and how do i check to c if i have it btw???

 

[deepstrasz]

It's either melee or altered melee, not both.

This map is very unbalanced to be melee not only from the terrain symmetry perspective but from neutral hostile camp and player positioning too.
In terms of altered melee, it's really not even a good scratch. These are examples of maps of the genre:
How to: Create a Full-working Custom Race
Custom Race Creation: Advanced Mechanics
UB - Ultimate Battle v1.99c AI+
Deforestation of Felwood v2.1.1
Nightborne v1.04
Planetary Domination v2.04
Sands of Time [v1.9]
The Grand Citadel (Racial Issue 1.6)

Terrain is flat.
Also, the blight issue is not to be overlooked.

I am sorry, the setting would work more for a Strategy/Risk map type.
Set to Substandard.

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[sharicasmi]

It's either melee or altered melee, not both.

This map is very unbalanced to be melee not only from the terrain symmetry perspective but from neutral hostile camp and player positioning too.
In terms of altered melee, it's really not even a good scratch. These are examples of maps of the genre:


I am sorry, the setting would work more for a Strategy/Risk map type.
Set to Substandard.

These are great maps which offer a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT experience than my map, and some of them are obviously more polished than others.
Planetary Domination doesn't look balanced at all. In a FFA environment, they have FIVE start locations close to the middle. These bases are just going to get caught in crossfire.
UB - Ultimate battle is VERY well balanced in terms of positioning. It is not a 24man and there's a lot of custom units.
Sands of time is a TWO PLAYER map with very balanced positioning.


Perhaps I wasn't clear on what the project is intended to be - a 24 man melee battle which DOES NOT USE CUSTOM UNITS. Units are strictly use latest patch melee data. Campaign creeps are okay since it's Eastern Kingdoms from World of Warcraft. This is intended for ladder players, and the close proximity of the bases keeps players fighting.
The only reason i have this posted as an altered melee is because of the crippling undead blight bug which apparently has been occuring since 2016:
[General] - Blight Bug - Can't build Undead Structures in Blight
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/bnet/topic/20762227119

Also, the blight issue is not to be overlooked.

You are supposed to be able to build on your own blight or else the game is broken. I will add the blight requirement back to undead buildings once it's fixed.

Terrain is flat

Terrain is flat for a reason. This is the fastest running 24man map on BNET right now.

 

[deepstrasz]

I don't know. @mafe what would your take be on this as an FFA melee map? Please.

 

[JSRGN]

I helped out with making the map, (DiabloSnowblind/Coldbringer here), but when I post this, I'm posting as a serious melee player. I'm not posting in my role with helping get this particular map going, nor is my view being biased by any attachment to this map. I play 24 mans on numerous maps aside from this one.

@deepstrasz :

Have you even tried playing the map? Have you played a ladder game, ever? Comparing this map to those various 'altered melee maps' you mention is a complete joke. We've hosted games with numerous rank 1 players from the Azeroth/Northrend team and FFA ladders, not to mention the FML FFA league, and there have been zero lasting complaints about the map's viability as a competitive melee map. Initial player concerns have been addressed over the course of literal dozens of updates to fix spawn locations and numerous other factors. My opinion as a serious ladder FFA player is that your review is a joke.

The spawn locations are balanced, even more so than ladder in a lot of ways - because if you happen to be surrounded, which happens just as well in ladder too, this map always gives you the option to expand into the numerous island expansions. Ladder lacks such a nice option all too often - nearly all of the time, in an actual Blizzard ladder game, if you spawn surrounded in an FFA game you're simply fucked except if you can succeed at rushing a neighbor out of the game. A lot of the spawn locations may be close to one another, but that's a feature, not a bug. Measures have been taken to ensure that spawns are not excessively close to one another to the point of causing interactions in the very first few minutes/tier 1.

Terrain being (mostly) flat is not a concern worth addressing. The map tries to do a lot with a lot of space restrictions. No player has ever raised this concern. Most ladder maps are flat too.

Terrain symmetry is also not a relevant concern. This map's geometry is modeled after the actual Eastern Kingdoms of the Warcraft lore. Which are far from symmetrical. This is a feature, not a bug. If you actually spend more than two minutes browsing over the map, you can see that overall player access to map resources is generally constant regardless of starting position. If you have some reason for supporting map symmetry aside from aesthetic/artistic concerns, I'm not seeing it. Blizzard has produced numerous maps that aren't exactly symmetrical, but remain balanced in terms of player access to resources.

The Blight Bug is, in fact, to be overlooked. There are few circumstances in which building undead buildings off of blight is a viable, lasting strategy. I have yet to see a player abuse this, it is simply not a facet of a melee undead player mindset. There are very few ways to abuse this at all without risking more than you gain. Pending blizzard patching the game to fix an issue that we cannot, taking the blight issue into consideration when rating the map as a whole is simply mean-spirited.

tl;dr: Sharicasmi deserves a real reviewer, not this poorly thought out junk. This map, even in its earlier and quite flawed incarnations, is very popular among serious FFA players for a reason. I can bring in numerous positive references from current highly ranked players who've played on and enjoyed this map.

 

[deepstrasz]

@HighTac @Sister She @WTii would you mind giving an opinion on the viability of this map for FFA ladder? Please.

 

[mafe]

I don't know. @mafe what would your take be on this as an FFA melee map? Please.

Um well. Right now, I would be very forgiving for any 24 player map. Maybe it isnt of the highest (visual) quality if you look at the standard from small maps, but given the huge amount of work that is required for such large maps, I would more or less ignore that.

Now I'm far from an FFA expert, I've only seen a few @HighTac streams to get an idea for the 24 player map contest. So I think that most of the issues that often come up with new 1v1 maps (tree density, expansion location, pathing, itemdrops) are much less problematic in FFA, or can even be completely ignored.

That being said, there are a few things that I stumbled upon:
-There's two islands with palms and a gold mine, but it looks like only undeads can take this mine due to lack of space for town halls etc?
-Some questionable item drops (pretty sure lvl 4 powerups dont exist). You have edited so many items I dont have the time or will to think about your thinking process and just have trust you knew what you were doing... yet, just be safe:
-Most item drops have unspecified classes. The items of the same level have varying selling values. Is this negligilbe?
-I dont even know how all of these nonstandard drops interact with market places.
-Hightac stated in his 24-is-the-new-12 contest advice that staff of silence and amulett of spelll shield are op in ffa, yet here they are available?
-At least one big camp with no item.
-Doodads dropping items such as a tiny big hall? I didnt find the location, but if it isnt on an island, except everybody to try to go for it on the first nightfall.

-Expansion gold mines on camp range. At some, the creeps are located in such a way that maybe you can even take the expansions without killing the creep. Might be wrong thought because the lvl 8+ creeps attack buildings from further away anyway.
-Shredders at northernmost goblin lab will be trapped if you dont also buy a zeppelin.
-Uncountable numbers of small gaps between doodads/trees where small untis will walk thourgh but bigger units wont. This could lead to unintentionally splitting armies.
-It looks to me as if some of the starting locations have a lot more trees than others. Also I suppose worker harass isnt a thing in FFAs, otherwise some starting goldmines are very opposed.


Thats all for now. I would say it is a good map and I very much like the concept (asymmetry should not be much of an issue). If I would have the time, I would now try to make Kalimdor map. Anyway, given the relatively short timespan so far to create 24 player maps, I think the map is still very good. It is unrealisitic to have somebody invest the time to polish a 24 player map up to the same standard as a competitive 1v1 map. If I'd try, it would probably take me 50+ hours in the map editor. I dont think anyone can be expected to invest this much time, given that we are all non-professionals.

 

[sharicasmi]

-There's two islands with palms and a gold mine, but it looks like only undeads can take this mine due to lack of space for town halls etc?
* The Dark ranger/banshee queen is supposed to mind control the murloc slaves on the outer islands to summon naga campaign units. This was the original intention of those mines, (which was approved by numerous players) however, it does give undead players an unfair advantage in some ways. I will consult more ladder players to see what action is needed. **

-Most item drops have unspecified classes. Is this negligilbe?
* This is the kind of feedback i need! Item drops have unspecified classes because i don't want players stacking tomes and making my map look like a ffa BM tome freakshow. I had to reduce tomes to level 0 drops to get them to drop, since there there was no creatures with level 1 drops. The loot table is reasonably well developed for now, but adjustments will certainly be done over time. The only level 0 things that dropped at first were potion of omniescence and wand of shadowsight, which represented 60% of the drops on the map. The only actual item edits from melee values is the tomes lvl.

-The items of the same level have varying selling values. Is this negligilbe?
*The items of the same level have different selling values by melee defaults. Take for example wand of Mana Stealing, scroll of restoration. Both of which have extremely inflated values for their lvl.

- I dont even know how all of these nonstandard drops interact with market places.
* There are no nonstandard drops except for scroll of restoration which will be replaced by rune of healing soon. We put the odd mob in that has a potion of omniescence, but that's about it. I set items to a level 6 max standard and when i got the map back from coldbringer, it had a few level 7 drops. I wasn't against it tbh but i reduced the level 8 drops.

-Hightac stated in his 24-is-the-new-12 contest advice that staff of silence and amulett of spell shield are op in ffa, yet here they are available?
* I dont mind removing that stuff, but isn't that just as op as crown of kings for BM?

-Doodads dropping items such as a tiny big hall? I didnt find the location, but if it isnt on an island, except everybody to try to go for it on the first nightfall.
* I did not know about that. Good to know XD

-Shredders at northernmost goblin lab will be trapped if you dont also buy a zeppelin.
* I have been fixing blocking issues by filling in with trees and rocks. Good to know

-Uncountable numbers of small gaps between doodads/trees where small untis will walk thourgh but bigger units wont. This could lead to unintentionally splitting armies.
* Since the trees have 700 hp this is rarely a case except for when archers, druid of the talon or necromancers slip through a gap once in awhile. Something that can easily be smoothed out over time.

-It looks to me as if some of the starting locations have a lot more trees than others. Also I suppose worker harass isnt a thing in FFAs, otherwise some starting goldmines are very opposed.
* Indeed some start locations have a lot more trees to give them more padding against their neighboring bases. Creative measures were taken to keep gold mines reasonably distanced from base access points. (or at least enough space being given to build a few towers.) Like in all melee matches, worker harass is very much a 'thing' and i myself was choked out and out of gold running this on 20man tonight. Eastern Kingdoms is very much a hostile place


Thanks for the fantastic review. It's clear that there are still some things that could use some fine tuning, and i won't get around to addressing all of these issues on the first edit (It will take some time to re evaluate item values and see how these items interact with the marketplace).
**We had to reduce the damage output of naga 'Coatl's by half since their default values were ridiculously OP.

 

[deepstrasz]

The Dark ranger/banshee queen is supposed to mind control the murloc slaves on the outer islands to summon naga campaign units. This was the original intention of those mines, (which was approved by numerous players)

Sadly, that makes it altered melee and we come back to the fact that it's not a good altered melee map. It has mere changes.

So now we're waiting for someone experienced to give feedback on this as a melee map which means anything altering original melee has to be removed.

 

[sharicasmi]

Sadly, that makes it altered melee and we come back to the fact that it's not a good altered melee map. It has mere changes.

So now we're waiting for someone experienced to give feedback on this as a melee map which means anything altering original melee has to be removed.

I don't mind removing the murloc units, but you can't seriously expect this map to function without the undead blight bug fixed.

When we tried playing the map using latest melee patch and no changes, Undead players could not build anywhere, games would last way too long without potion of omniescence, because people kept seeding town halls. Blood mage siphon mana was not able to target and siphon mana to other heroes like they do in ladder games, Goblin shipyards were still selling frigates and destroyers, and most low level mobs dropped nothing but wand of shadowsight and potion of omniescence.

I am just about done being polite with you. 24 man games are a new genre and they simply don't WORK without a few 'mere changes.'

 

[mafe]

Hey glad to hear cou could use my feedback. I'm not sure you understod what I tried to say about the small gaps, so here's an exemplary screenshot. Actually there werent as many other similar sport as I first thought, but this one stood out:

Heroes cant pass the gap marker in black and will walk the yellow path, while small units like footies or shamans will take the red path.
Similarly, Heroes (most likely) cant reach the item dropped by this wizard if he dies on his exacty spawning spot:

Also some creepspots are so close together on that aggroing one spot will make the creeps from another join the fight, even if they are on the other side of a forest.

Edit: I also dont think the "no blight" bug should be held against a map. It is clearly a general bug with wc3, I believe even Blizzard acknowledged that in one of their recent post. So it will hopefully be fixed soon anyway and then any 24 player map should work. On the other hand, as it stands, the map is clearly an "altered melee" according to the standards on the hiveworkshop as they are now.

 

[sharicasmi]

Hey glad to hear cou could use my feedback. I'm not sure you understod what I tried to say about the small gaps, so here's an exemplary screenshot. Actually there werent as many other similar sport as I first thought, but this one stood out:
View attachment 298065
Heroes cant pass the gap marker in black and will walk the yellow path, while small units like footies or shamans will take the red path.
Similarly, Heroes (most likely) cant reach the item dropped by this wizard if he dies on his exacty spawning spot:
View attachment 298066
Also some creepspots are so close together on that aggroing one spot will make the creeps from another join the fight, even if they are on the other side of a forest.

Edit: I also dont think the "no blight" bug should be held against a map. It is clearly a general bug with wc3, I believe even Blizzard acknowledged that in one of their recent post. So it will hopefully be fixed soon anyway and then any 24 player map should work. On the other hand, as it stands, the map is clearly an "altered melee" according to the standards on the hiveworkshop as they are now.

Thanks, I fixed those two areas that you mentioned. They should no longer cause pathing issues for heroes or larger units.

I'm aware of the creep issue and every couple edits, I have been trying different configurations of spreading them out and sometimes just plain removing them in an attempt to fix this problem. It takes a couple replays to hammer out this kind of bug. Our players have to improvise if extra mobs pull right now, which is not acceptable by any means.

 

[sharicasmi]

I'll be spending some time evaluating how items interact with the marketplace, and then we'll try testing with some terrain height details or imported tilesets.

 

[deepstrasz]

Set back to Pending until things get more clearer (experienced melee players give more opinions).
But all altered melee stuff has to be removed if you want to keep it melee.

Also, please do not multipost.

 

[JSRGN]

Deepstrasz, I will say this once, twice, thrice. You're interpreting the rules of the Hive by the letter, not by the spirit of the rules. Which is a mark of poor moderation and reviewing.

This map is a straight melee map in every way that matters. Anyone who has played on it will agree. Changes from melee simply and *only* serve to either make the map functional on a basic level, or reduce the likelihood of extremely long games. 24 man FFAs are scarcely playable without potions of omniscience - it's nearly impossible to eliminate someone from the game if they decide to start hiding bases on maps this big. This can get uniquely frustrating when the game becomes a 1v1 situation.

I will bring in player testimony.

 

[Vyvanne]

Hi, Vyvanne here to show some support for this map.

Firstly, my credentials. Former semi pro player, I grew up in Korea and practiced vs many of the greats back in the day. Sure they stomped the shit out of me, but it was an invaluable learning experience. Hopefully this will lend some weight to what I'm about to say from a day 1 RoC player. I am also a recognized name in the FFA community. I was never at the very top tier, but even having only returned to seriously playing Wc3 a couple months ago, it was an incredible feeling to jump into discord and get tons of "HOLY SHIT HI ELSHA" comments.

US West - Frozen Throne - Lordaeron - vyvanne-of-iel - Player Profile
EU - Frozen Throne - Northrend - vyvanne-of-iel - Player Profile


So now having played on this map a few times, I can honestly say that I think it's my favorite 24 player FFA map. Given the very nature of FFA and the chaoticness of adding 20 additional players to the 'standard' 4 player FFA, no, it probably won't ever be fully balanced. Hell, the regular game ain't balanced, but that's how the game is. What makes it so interesting is the layout. Instead of having one enormous square map that take an age to move around, you have a surprisingly small map for 24 players. The intentional close spawns makes for very exciting games early on. Yes, teaming is going to happen. It's FFA, it's part of the game. Yes, some people can get the short end of the stick and get 2v1 or 3v1'ed early and are out of the running. But it keeps things fresh and forces players to look at things a bit differently.

Look at Starcraft Brood War. It's a game that many claim is the closest to a perfectly balanced RTS that can be, and the world is likely never going to see another game like that. The last balance change was 1.08, which was in 2001. The game hasn't had an official balance change in 17 years. How do they keep things fresh and changing things up? By balancing and testing and trying new things through maps.

That's why I really like Eastern Kingdoms. it breaks up the generally agreed upon state of balance in FFA. Human is considered the strongest overall- they have the best towers, free reveals, can expo quickly, have mass tp, and the best hard counter army in the game. UD is considered the weakest, expensive units, difficult to fight the other races in a straight up battle. With a smaller map and with lots of narrow paths, it's hard to maneuver tanks around. Humans typically take up the most real estate with all their buildings and farms. UD and NE shine a bit on this map due to typically having pure air armies, and so they can move around more freely. With the mains being so small, you need to snake your bases around the paths or slowly carve up real estate with shredders/units that can attack trees. Some islands can only be mined by UD due to only need a gold mine and not a main structure. The small size also means you have to be ready from the get go to potentially defend yourself, scouting is even more a premium so you don't stumble into other people fighting and potentially piss them off.

Sure it's got some problems, but having played multiple versions of it, it continues to be improved based on feedback. Is it strictly a 100% canon melee game? No, you can build the naga race and there are potions of omniscience. I think that's probably fine. Realistically, a lot of people do not stay for the entire 2-5+ hour duration to finish the game and actually be the last person standing, and so if it does turn into a final 1v1 and someone is being a dick and hiding shit, yeah, omni pot is probably fine. It's quite expensive at 200g, so yes you can spam it later on when people have tons and tons of gold, but it's very very expensive early on. True, it also negates manipulation and the diplomacy of FFA. Part of manip is trying to disguise how much gold you have and how much you can survive in an unbalanced 3 way for instance, and that all goes to hell when people can hoard to 80k+ in a game like this, so there is less impact.


The most important thing is that Shari is willing to listen to feedback and make prompt changes when asked. In the beginning honestlly it was pretty fucking shit - the trees were WAYYYY too strong and some of the mines had WAY too much gold. It's getting to a pretty good state now, and as long as we continue to play it and offer feedback, it can be a very respectable 24 player ffa map.

Anyway this is way longer than I tended to write but I like to talk, what can I say.

 

[deepstrasz]

Changes from melee simply and *only* serve to either make the map functional on a basic level, or reduce the likelihood of extremely long games. 24 man FFAs are scarcely playable without potions of omniscience

I'm not referring to that but to using other units than those from the melee games like the naga and/or battleships (+no new units in merc camps). Trees should not have more HP than in the normal melee etc. These kinds of changes.

 

[mafe]

For reference, there was a discussion on the hive on what "melee maps with meagre changes" should be classified as:
Defining and Placement of Melee Maps with Meagre Changes
On one hand, the result was not really conclusive and the discussion took place way before 1.29 and 24 player support were in the cards, but on the other hand I think it clearly supports deepstrasz opinion that this map is more appropriately classified as "altered melee" than as "melee "on the hiveworkshop, at least until there is another dicussion. Which I think might be justified, because I'm not really happy here either. Maybe we can just let this map have both the "melee" and the "altered melee" tag due to exceptional circumstances.

 

[JSRGN]

I'm not referring to that but to using other units than those from the melee games like the naga.

Naga are fun. Don't touch my naga. (yes, this is the one aspect of the map that's the most unusual from a melee map perspective, and perhaps it's the least necessary, but it's fun. And pretty darn rare/difficult to execute on. And of questionable actual long-term value. I wish Blizzard maps occasionally had a 'WTF' factor like this. Too bad they took Hurricane Isles out of the map pool.)

and/or battleships

Honestly I'm not clear on battleships. Given how many islands and near-shore bases there are, it might be interesting to bring battleships in purely from the naval siege aspect. If they were to be brought back I'd support removing their food requirements - too many islands can be turned into tower fortresses as things stand.

+no new units in merc camps.

As far as I know the merc camps are set to default Lordaeron Summer tileset, which in retrospect is pretty boring (that is not a very useful set of mercenaries). Some spicing up could be in order.

Trees should not have more HP than in the normal melee etc.

Disagreed. Having enough trees to support 24 players involve a *shitload* of trees. More than the map can support without profound changes to the level geometry, which would critically take away from the map's unique aspect than Vyvanne and I enjoy so much - having a small battle/building area for bases and space between bases.

 

[Vyvanne]

Lumber is definitely something that will need continual tweaking. It has been toned down from previous versions which I think was rightfully WAY too high. It's getting to a better state now. I'll need to play a few more games to see how it pans out, due to IRL commitments and things I haven't had a chance to play more than 2 hours in a game, always had to leave early, so I can't say how it'll affect it in the long term, but at the moment it's ok. You will eventually clear out your surrounding areas so you can have some more space, but it does take some time.

I do agree they should have more hp than normal - you would need a 100% land map that is the size of Emersion (24 ffa map that many say is like a bigger Twilight Ruins) in order to support lumber. Monsoon is a really good example of how NOT to do lumber for a ffa map - for being a 6 player map it is TERRIBLE. Every race except elf has issues due to the smaller groups of forests and lack of shredders. If I remember right, shredders are 2 food now, so having 2x shredders does allow the map to still keep its unique features and only really open up the map more easily in the very late game.

Having both tags might be a solution. This is a rather unique case due to the 24 player perspective. Being more strict with the standard formats of 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 I can understand. Allowing for a little bit of leeway with 24 player maps I think may not be a bad idea.

 

[sharicasmi]

Thanks for the support,
Vyvanne and Coldbringer. I have 1.50 version on standby but I'll be taking some feedback and making a few changes before I post it. I am working on terrain outlines and shorelines for a similar looking Kalimdor FFA project atm. I have noticed that these games go on for way longer than expected, so I'll be reducing gold from gold mines by 10-20% in the interest of saving time.

TBH the naga units just aren't that good and they just distract players from the objective of the game. It's essentially supposed to be in the style of a BIG ladder FFA, and as much as i love the naga race, they take away from the whole ladder experience. If i get enough requests, they may return in an 'altered melee' version but you can always play the 1.47 version on ENT's servers.

I'm interested in fine tuning item drops right now. I am most interested in what people think of Crown of Kings for BM atm. There are 3 marketplaces on the map, would it be a poor idea having Crown of Kings sold at marketplaces? I have it currently disabled (as well as Claws of Attack +12/15).

Some of the start locations off the south-east shoreline will be reshaped some time soon, with a few gold mines possibly being removed to make room for larger start locations.

[EDIT]
I have posted the new version on the ENT servers map pool. I will be hosting a 24 FFA at 6:00 EST to get some feedback.
-Rune of shielding is removed
-Rune of speed now drops instead
-A base over by Darkshire has been given its own entry lane to help them bottleneck their base defenses.
-Added a few more trees by the shorelines of 9 bases because they felt too spacious compared to a few other start locations
-Reduce gold from mines by 10% (small ones) 15% (medium ones) -20% (big ones)[/EDIT]

 

[Vyvanne]

Would you be able to list the actual gold values for the various mines? Sorry, that's a bit easier way to get an idea of the game lengths.

Also to clarify, what do you mean by small, medium and big? I assume big is the gold mine at starting points/mains, what is the difference for medium and small?


As for items... hmm. Spell shield and silence staff is good to be removed, they're wayyyy too broken (esp spell shield, at least silence can be dispelled). Crown is tricky. Their effectiveness is very very strong if you can stack them - BM, Alch, DH, etc. I think it's proooobably ok?

 

[sharicasmi]

Would you be able to list the actual gold values for the various mines? Sorry, that's a bit easier way to get an idea of the game lengths.

Also to clarify, what do you mean by small, medium and big? I assume big is the gold mine at starting points/mains, what is the difference for medium and small?


As for items... hmm. Spell shield and silence staff is good to be removed, they're wayyyy too broken (esp spell shield, at least silence can be dispelled). Crown is tricky. Their effectiveness is very very strong if you can stack them - BM, Alch, DH, etc. I think it's proooobably ok?

The large mines by player start locations had 35,000, and now have 28,400.
The medium mines guarded by large red creeps had 20,000 and now have 15% less.
The mines on the islands had like 17,500 something, and they now have like 14.500. Idk ill have to check.
The small mines on the interior had 10,000 and now have 9,000

 

[deepstrasz]

This isn't about what's fun and what isn't. We're discussing whether this is melee or not or at least a proper altered melee.
So, as I've written, I'd be willing to approve this map with the only change being the Potion of Omniscience therein. More than that like the naga and ships stuff... no. I'm still thinking about the trees.
However, I want to continue the discussion on the matter on that thread mafe linked.

 

[Vyvanne]

Even at a high level of play, the changes feel minuscule and only appropriate enough minor edits to accommodate for the fact that it is trying to cater to 24 players and not a max of 8 (4v4).

The nagas are realistically a non-issue. They are not really worth it and add a layer that I personally feel is unnecessary - they're not strong enough to impact balance on any real level and in fact can hurt the player since this isn't Brood War where you can theoretically get 200/200/200 supply. One of the units was very strong, but after the nerf it feels negligible now. The additional spells you get can be very strong in a 1v1 setting (ensnare for instance) but those abilities have little to no impact in big ffa fights.

 

[JSRGN]

Nagas are only realistically useful for the ability to build towers in shallow water. It's a fun but highly niche additional element to the game. I don't have any particular thoughts on the ships in either direction - ships are so extremely niche that the decision to keep or include battleships and frigates shouldn't even factor into judging the map. Those are next-to-useless (too fragile/too expensive/too much food) and are basically campaign units in any case.

Honestly, transport ships could use a bit of a speed nerf. The things are ridiculously fast - even wyverns and gargoyles can't catch up to them.

 

[sharicasmi]

This is the final version of it that I have posted. I will not be posting further updates on this map until blizzard fixes the blight bug (at which point I will adding the blight requirement back). This project has been ready for approval for about a week.

[EDIT] After giving this a play through yesterday, I've noticed that there are still some ramps and buggy that need smoothing out. It also occurs to me that I could be adding a trigger to remove a bunch of gold mines when less players are in the game. We can't always get a full 24 people, and there is WAY too much gold for any less than 24 players. The pragmatic approach would be to remove half the gold mines in 12 player games and I'm going to try something to address that issue.
My maps are non-protected because I want everyone to be able to understand how I envision these 24 player FFA triggers should work. [/EDIT]

[EDIT] I have implemented a trigger system to address the excessive amounts of gold mines in games without a full lobby. Expect to see HALF as many mines on 12 player mode, a quarter as many on 6 player, and it only counts human players when it removes expo mines.
All start locations that are empty (of human and cpu players) will have their gold mines removed on startup. [/EDIT]

 

[mafe]

Ok, after talking to @Daffa the Mage , I have come to the following conclusion:
-The map is not a melee map by hiveworkshop guidelines. However it is still clearly meant to be played as a regular melee map and for most parts in practice it is. For lack of a fitting category to describe this, it should have both the "melee" and the "altered melee" tag to indicate this. I therfore added the "altered melee" tag. Should the hiveworkshop ever introduce more detailed categories, this map could be reclassified accordingly.
-The map also isnt polished and there are tons of things which would be not be acceptable for ladder maps. However, it is not realistic to expect anyone to invest dozens of hours just to perfectly position ever creepspot, fix every possible pathing issue, make all starting positions equal, etc.... on such a gigantic map. Some leniency is definitely justified here.

Considering this, the map is worthy of being approved.