Techtree Contest #15 - Co-op Commanders [Optionally Paired]

[Yours Truly]

I don't understand the need for such negativity here, especially when a number of options were presented to you other than making passive aggressive snipes in future contests where everybody else seems to be having a good time.

Since what I made was considered a joke, why not joke around a little bit more.
Let's end this here shall we? I may have let my toxicity took over... apologies.

The theme itself is you pick a hero/character from Warcraft lore (can be whatever era you want, can be however minor you want, the universe is pretty expansive), and you try to build a faction around that theme.

So anything goes, as long it exists in the Warcraft universe? Even The Captain or Jailor Kassan would be acceptable? I think I might go for something not from the 4 main races.

I call dibs on Chen Stormstout.

 

[Wazzz]

Ngl, Jailor Kassan would be one hell of an option. Leading prison riots, a real amalgamation of captured races and... "experiments".

Chen Stormsnout is also a fantastic option, having fun with the Pandaren theme.

 

[Shar Dundred]

I just noticed the deadline on this... Hm.
Tell you what, if I finish my current campaign before that date (proving my insanity once again)
and have enough time left, I'll go in with my man Admiral Daelin Proudmoore.
Until then, I will enjoy seeing what the contestants can come up with because this coop commander
theme for WC3 has been on my mind since the introduction of SC2 coop commanders.

 

[MyPad]

Now sticking with Mal'furion as the Commander of the Druids.

Current WIP: (Created units)

Currently, the worker unit (Villager Druid) can transform into an absolute behemoth of a Tier 3 unit, as a Savage Bear (Insane attack speed and siege damage). However, the Savage Bear transformation will be locked behind a "lot" of upgrades, ensuring that the player has reached close to 100% tech level to use.

My first tier 1 unit is an Archer-based Druid of the Beast, who takes the form of a harpy. The harpy druid can only fly when her hitpoints is greater than 50%.

Will attach pictures of them later.

EDIT: Post has been updated.
WIP images attached below:

1. Picture of all units (currently)
   
   
   
2. Gold mine embedding
   
   
   
3. Druid Villager harvesting through the town hall (beta).
   

 

[Footman16]

Yep I'm set on doing Jaina Leader of the Kirin Tor Offensive.

Was tempted to make my entry SD and HD but I'll probably stick to HD for that sweet sweet Jaina Daughter of the Sea model in Reforged.

Since its the Kirin Tor Offensive we'll have Silver Covenant troops as well as the regular mages of Dalaran.

 

[Yours Truly]

@Wazzz Should we also include the commanding character as one of the faction's playable Hero? If so, should they be completely untouched or can their skills, stats, etc.. be modified?

 

[Wazzz]

@Wazzz Should we also include the commanding character as one of the faction's playable Hero? If so, should they be completely untouched or can their skills, stats, etc.. be modified?

That's a very good question - it is worth mentioning that it doesn't have to be included, but can be. If it is included, definitely explore ways of how you might include it.
To use Chen Stormsnout as an example, he could be a playable hero that you get, and if you felt inclined to make other heroes available to the faction through whatever ways you decide on (be it the traditional way of getting them through the altar, or them being alternate options available in the Tavern through some clever integration), it could lead to Chen getting a traveling band to go along with him.

Alternatively, you could have it that they are not a playable commander, ideally where it makes sense - if you did Mal'Ganis, for example, you could have him as a manipulator from the shadows. You could do something similar with Sylvanus, where instead of using her directly, you actually command the thralls she has under her command as heroes.

When it comes to skill and stat modification, I'll leave that up to the contestant's discretion. Ideally it should be something fitting to the gameplay style you're after, and, of course, the role of the hero in particular. If you want to make the commanding heroes more powerful than others, there may be ways to accomplish this that both fits balance and isn't overly intrusive to gameplay. Alternatively, you might want to stick to more traditional values and abilities, but in this theme I want there to be a degree of flexibility on such things.

 

[Leods]

I Will be busy with the mini-mapping contest, but still trying to, if I have time, do anything. If I make an entry, it will be based in Garrosh Hellscream, and is Iron Horde.

 

[Yours Truly]

"Le make more complex things"

Nah, I'll just stick to the old ways. Not after.....you know.

 

[Wazzz]

Simple done right will probably be best, just don't put pressure on yourself to try and make mountains where a molehill will do and I'm sure you'll do fine. I think you'll do rather well here, seems like the sort of thing you can have fun with and excel at

 

[Leods]

Hey, I wasn't able to open the provided map (none of the both download links worked). It says that there is missing information.
Edit: I am also thinking on lots of other heroes, so I can't assure anything (even if I am gonna participate )

 

[Wazzz]

Damn, there's been some... consistent problems with trying to open those maps when provided on here.
If you can find them in your own copy, that should hopefully fix the issue, although I don't know why World Editor is being so stubborn about this. I believe even @Mythic updated the first post with his own versions, since the ones I provided seemed to be causing issues (I have Reforged, so we thought it might be a bug on that end, like most things are).

 

[Yours Truly]

Hey, I wasn't able to open the provided map (none of the both download links worked). It says that there is missing information.
Edit: I am also thinking on lots of other heroes, so I can't assure anything (even if I am gonna participate )

johnwar provided a solution for contestants that uses versions below 1.32, myself included:

Look for the Frozen Throne folder in Maps folder and look for "(6)Duststorm.w3x".

 

[Barorque]

Hey, I wasn't able to open the provided map (none of the both download links worked). It says that there is missing information.
Edit: I am also thinking on lots of other heroes, so I can't assure anything (even if I am gonna participate )

Also, just go for Jaina... while we're at it... There is still Dread Lord Jaina, and Lich Queen Jaina (the latter is alternative lore).

 

[Leods]

Dread Lord Jaina is confirmed ...
I was actually thinking to pick Malygos and azure dragons... Maybe I can add a Jaina over there...

 

[Wazzz]

From what I am hearing, it sounds like Jaina has been around quite a bit more than I was aware of.

 

[Barorque]

From what I am hearing, it sounds like Jaina has been around quite a bit more than I was aware of.

Aww, come on, Jaina is the first Waifu of many gamers... not far from Sylvanas in popularity I'd say.

She had important roles from WotLK till now really. They turned her from a ¨cute¨ young apprentice into a somewhat zealous and powerful Mage.
- Started seeing that not all Horde are nice and fluffy
- Survived a Hiroshima/Dresden style bombing of her people (an entire novel about that)
- Threw all that ¨let's just all be friends¨ bullshit and focused on alliance
- And finally came back home and became Lord Admiral

Now I must say, it's not some Mary Sue crap that often is used with female characters, but a well developed character with realistic motivations for her actions and power levels.

I must say....
I am Horde.
Of cours the "let be friends" Anduin stuff is crap and non-sense, but i think it's as viable to create a non aggresion-pact as it's in real life. It's very similar, being most wars the result of a tyranical leading at some group (Horde leaders most time. We must admit Blizzard always give a preferencial treatment to the Alliance).

I always played as the Horde, only tried Alliance for Classic. But I do like her story arc quite a lot.
We will see though what will happens to Azeroth and the conflict after Shadowlands, apparently the heroes will come back to another time (not specified how far forth, or even back?).

Not to spam the thread, I'm posting here my first ¨proof¨ of actually participating.
So despite saying the skins will take less time, this one took me kind of the whole day... (NOT a WIP btw, that comes later...)

 

[Leods]

I must say....
I am Horde.
Of cours the "let be friends" Anduin stuff is crap and non-sense, but i think it's as viable to create a non aggresion-pact as it's in real life. It's very similar, being most wars the result of a tyranical leading at some group (Horde leaders most time. We must admit Blizzard always give a preferencial treatment to the Alliance).

Gods Moonman, that ship looks just... great
As far as I know, they aren't back exactly, they will just be living thein non-lives, and we will just see them. The souls didn't even remember their lifes, so I don't think anyone comes to Azeroth

 

[Footman16]

Just thought I'd show off the rough outline of how the faction's starting to look, still a couple of units to add/change but we can see post-Theramore Jaina flanked by a big Dalaran construct and an elemental, we also have the Silver Covenant providing the bread and butter troops along with our two Kirin Tor casters on their steeds. Mobility will be a big part of this race/faction We also can see Vereesa another hero option. I'm debating whether to add Kalecgos or not and whether Blue Dragons would fit for another air unit.

Spoiler: WIP

 

[MogulKahn]

Just thought I'd show off the rough outline of how the faction's starting to look, still a couple of units to add/change but we can see post-Theramore Jaina flanked by a big Dalaran construct and an elemental, we also have the Silver Covenant providing the bread and butter troops along with our two Kirin Tor casters on their steeds. Mobility will be a big part of this race/faction We also can see Vereesa another hero option. I'm debating whether to add Kalecgos or not and whether Blue Dragons would fit for another air unit.

Spoiler: WIP

View attachment 356325

I think it is 1 or no heroes. Every Co-op commander is Starcraft 2 is like that. Except Tychus.

 

[johnwar]

The Units and Heroes is complete only their abilities is not yet done
Lady Liadrin's Army: The Sunsworn - Archer, Ballista, and Dragonhawk Rider
The Magisters - Priest, Sorceress, Magister, Arcane Golem
The Blood Knights - Swordsman, Crusader, Blood Knight, Spell Breaker, Sky Guardian
Heroes: Blood Knight (Lady Liadrin) Ranger (Sunsworn) Grand Magister

Spoiler: WIP

WIP

• johnwar
• May 31, 2020
• 1

 

[Wazzz]

Entries are sounding very nice so far. Looking forward to seeing them develop

 

[Barorque]

Let's add some cool frost spikes to the Water Elemental, that will look cool.

Looks at skin.... eheeehmmm???

Also, Jaina really let herself go after all that Theramore business...

 

[Shar Dundred]

That's what she gets for not joining her father back then. X)

 

[Wazzz]

If you find a way to put Jaina skin on Reforged Detheroc for Chungus Dreadlord Jaina, I'll just give you 1st place right away.

 

[Footman16]

I think it is 1 or no heroes. Every Co-op commander is Starcraft 2 is like that. Except Tychus.

As far as I can tell its as many heroes as you want as long as they relate/fit in with the main commander you choose.

 

[Wazzz]

As far as I can tell its as many heroes as you want as long as they relate/fit in with the main commander you choose.

Correct. This is partly due to these entries being compared against melee factions, as well as the default melee game having four heroes per race as a gameplay feature (three for reign of chaos, one for a campaign race like the Naga or the Draenei).

Granted, you don't /have/ to have more than one hero, this is the minimum for a reason, buuuut you also don't have to restrict yourself to just the one, and don't even have to have your commander as a playable hero - you could have an Uther Commander, for example, but rather than Uther being one of the heroes, you instead get his closest champions. Maybe instead of Kel'Thuzad, you have special Undead Thralls as his heroes while the big bad lurks in the shadows.

It's totes all personal choice.

Also, on a side note, the Commander I'm putting together partly as a demo but mostly for fun is coming along rather well. A lot of the concepts are shaping up rather well, and I believe I should have it functional for non-RF versions of Warcraft.

 

[Barorque]

If you find a way to put Jaina skin on Reforged Detheroc for Chungus Dreadlord Jaina, I'll just give you 1st place right away.

I'm quoting you on that...


Anyways, I need some advice here:
Balance is a part of the contests, that's all good and nice. However if I use naval units, seeing that technically there are no buildable naval units for the real default race, how is that being judged?
I of course will add naval units for the enemy. And balance their strength around resource cost etc.

And regarding terrain / map in general:
Since it is allowed to edit the map (I'm guessing keeping some basic outline), I want to flood some sections to make boats useful (but not mandatory).
I also would like to keep the co-op idea of playing 1v1 or 2v2, not 3v3 like the map is. Considering that I plan to have set start locations, with two main factions, and two support ones, so it can be played as a
single player, single player with ally and actual co-op.


So am I good to go?

 

[SgtWinter]

I'm contemplating whether or not to lurk in the background and play all the awesome entries coming in or actually participate.

Edit: Aight, made up my mind! Where do I sign up? Thinking about making a Kel'Thuzad commander based around the original RPS gameplay of Alpha WC3. Instead of having to train units, he'll raise them from corpses via Necromancers.

 

[Wazzz]

I'm quoting you on that...


Anyways, I need some advice here:
Balance is a part of the contests, that's all good and nice. However if I use naval units, seeing that technically there are no buildable naval units for the real default race, how is that being judged?
I of course will add naval units for the enemy. And balance their strength around resource cost etc.

And regarding terrain / map in general:
Since it is allowed to edit the map (I'm guessing keeping some basic outline), I want to flood some sections to make boats useful (but not mandatory).
I also would like to keep the co-op idea of playing 1v1 or 2v2, not 3v3 like the map is. Considering that I plan to have set start locations, with two main factions, and two support ones, so it can be played as a
single player, single player with ally and actual co-op.


So am I good to go?

Well, the original ruling was that anything except the terrain can be edited - however, @Mythic and I have been discussing this point and think that rule is redundant. If users want to edit the terrain, then why should we restrict that? In most cases, it doesn't inherently provide an advantage to the overall design of the techtree, and rather it's an extra thing that some contestants might just want to do. So, we believe you should be fine with that.

As for including naval units, that is... a very good question. I suppose a part of it will be the feel of how effective they are - especially if they're capable of destroying bases without any feasible counter to them, but also similarly if it just feels like a waste to get them. When it comes to naval vs naval, that will also be an aspect, but you should also account for how it interacts with Naval vs Air and Naval vs Land, and if those are key features. For example, if you have a Battleship that can shoot cannonballs across the entire map to destroy bases while remaining untouched, the balance of such a ship is going to be called into question.

 

[Barorque]

Well, the original ruling was that anything except the terrain can be edited - however, @Mythic and I have been discussing this point and think that rule is redundant. If users want to edit the terrain, then why should we restrict that? In most cases, it doesn't inherently provide an advantage to the overall design of the techtree, and rather it's an extra thing that some contestants might just want to do. So, we believe you should be fine with that.

As for including naval units, that is... a very good question. I suppose a part of it will be the feel of how effective they are - especially if they're capable of destroying bases without any feasible counter to them, but also similarly if it just feels like a waste to get them. When it comes to naval vs naval, that will also be an aspect, but you should also account for how it interacts with Naval vs Air and Naval vs Land, and if those are key features. For example, if you have a Battleship that can shoot cannonballs across the entire map to destroy bases while remaining untouched, the balance of such a ship is going to be called into question.

Great, they I'll go as planned regarding the terrain.
The idea behind it is that there are two entry points to the main base, one land and one sea only (still need to walk you units, but might surprise the enemy in a PvP scenario).
Additionally these paths somewhat cross in the middle, where land units may be attacked by the fleet, but can still get out of range (while limiting their advance).

So all that together, one can get a great use of naval units and transport the actual assault force with them. But of course there's the risk of loosing it if the ships get destroyed.
Balance is that the naval units are not build to attack the main base, but can damage the expansion. Expert the ghost ship of course, since it's flying.
All that together would make them not useless but not overpowered.

I just feel that a the Lord Admiral needs her fleet.

@Moonman
Lady Admiral

 

[Daffa]

@Moonman
Lady Admiral

 

[Leods]

Thats just the title, but I don't think the title of "Lord" for a female character makes any sense.

 

[Wazzz]

Actually, from what I can tell, there is no rank known as "Lady Admiral". Additionally, while in previous cases of the term Lord being typically applied to men, it is not always the case. The Lord of Mann is a title currently held by the Queen of the United Kingdom, and there are females with the title "Lord mayor".

Now, the term Lord Admiral and Lord High Admiral seems to be an older term, but here's an interesting person worth looking into:
Anne, Queen of Great Britain - Wikipedia

It seems that at some point she did appoint her husband the Lord High Admiral, but upon his death, she insisted upon carrying out the duties herself. She is effectively recorded down as a female Lord High Admiral.

It also looks like Queen Elizabeth II held the title of Lord High Admiral from the 1st of April, 1964, to the 10th of June, 2011, according to this list:

Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

 

[Leods]

Well...
That's right. That's what happens when I try to suppose the rules of my native language to the English .

 

[Barorque]

Aha, so this is a language discussion thread now, my true passion! (one wouldn't know, seeing my grammar)

- Lord comes from Loaf Ward, (these have their Indo-Aryan origins... you'd be surprised how many words have same origins from Russian, Baltic, Anglo to German).

- Lady is of course related and comes from Hlaf (Hlaf=Loaf) Dike (yes it became a slur later, but is related to ditch, kneading = diking)

So while Lord is applicable a duty position to watch/protect something important, Lady is a position of maintaining it.
The choice is simple, either Jaina is a Dike, or a Ward!

 

[Wazzz]

To be fair, female Lord High Admirals appear to be an exception to the rule, but so far the title hasn't changed with them - and, in most instances, you would be right. When it comes to ranks in nobility, for instance, the men are Lords, while women of equivalent noble standing were Ladies.

I found it rather interesting to look into, and I feel very safe with Jaina being Lord Admiral. She is her father's daughter, after all

 

[Daffa]

Well, glad to make the topic but not glad if that accounts as off-topic.

I have no decent knowledge of rankings and positions, so I thought it will go with the equivalent thing. I have seen some places use chairlady for example, though apparently that was not an official English thing.

 

[Yours Truly]

Speaking of which, here's an early WIP of my faction. I already have planned some of the more detailed features for the race, but I don't have WIPs for them yet.

Buildings WIP

Since Pandarens enjoy eating good food as well as drinking strong booze, Chen would be no different, being a Brewmaster. So, I've made the farm building for my race grow a particular plant that will benefit the race; Bamboo Stalks.

More Info

 

[Barorque]

Speaking of which, here's an early WIP of my faction. I already have planned some of the more detailed features for the race, but I don't have WIPs for them yet.

Buildings WIP

View attachment 356399

Since Pandarens enjoy eating good food as well as drinking strong booze, Chen would be no different, being a Brewmaster. So, I've made the farm building for my race grow a particular plant that will benefit the race; Bamboo Stalks.

More Info

View attachment 356400

Nice an immersive Pandaren theme!
BTW, you absolutely must include an Alemental!

 

[Wazzz]

@Moonman after some of the ale so he can beat up those filthy landlubbers

It's nice to see some WIPs up and happening, looking good so far

 

[Vinz]

I believe even @Mythic updated the first post with his own versions

Did that just now. I hope my copies work.

This level of interest for the contest is lovely.
We're off to a promising start. Theme's wonderful. Keep the WIPs coming, folks.

 

[Footman16]

I think anybody using reforged should get an automatic hug from all other entrants because geez, I forgot how much more effort it takes to edit skins/icons in reforged even for basic things compared to Classic.

I could pull my hair out sometimes. Also the lack of resources :'(

 

[Wazzz]

I think anybody using reforged should get an automatic hug from all other entrants because geez, I forgot how much more effort it takes to edit skins/icons in reforged even for basic things compared to Classic.

I could pull my hair out sometimes. Also the lack of resources :'(

Can totally relate, wanted to get in on making one of the first HD entries for these contests, and @Moonman can attest to just how much effort had to go into each of the textures. And then there was the icons.

 

[Barorque]

For anyone wanting to see madness incarnate, open Reforged Mountain Giant textures

On a different note: I am currently struggling with a normal.dds finished other textures and when opening in editor the skin looked all messed up. Saving in any available format (yes ALL of them), didn't solve the issue.
Even asked William if he has any info on how Blizzard saved the textures... we'll see, hope I didn't waste the day on the texture.

Also just to be 100% safe, should I send the judges a rough layout of the terrain for approval, or is it generally accepted that expanding water, and altering base access points is OK?

 

[Footman16]

For anyone wanting to see madness incarnate, open Reforged Mountain Giant textures

Oh my... that's just... you can't see where any of it goes its just stone and moss everywhere

I tried editing the diffuse and normals of the Altar of Kings and the Town Hall, Keep and Castle to make them have the Dalaran symbol instead of the Lordaeron one and it just didn't work for whatever reason. It's frustrating.

 

[Riki]

I'm going with the option of a single OP hero, which in my case is Grom. I also decided that the faction will have no air units, so instead they will focus on another strategies to effectively confront the rest of races.

Spoiler: WIP 1

 

[SgtWinter]

I'm going with the option of a single OP hero, which in my case is Grom. I also decided that the faction will have no air units, so instead they will focus on another strategies to effectively confront the rest of races.

Spoiler: WIP 1

View attachment 356443

Lookin' good! No air units so I'm assuming he'll focus more on Ensnaring enemy air units since it doesn't look like he has much going for him in terms of AA.

 

[Wazzz]

For anyone wanting to see madness incarnate, open Reforged Mountain Giant textures

On a different note: I am currently struggling with a normal.dds finished other textures and when opening in editor the skin looked all messed up. Saving in any available format (yes ALL of them), didn't solve the issue.
Even asked William if he has any info on how Blizzard saved the textures... we'll see, hope I didn't waste the day on the texture.

Also just to be 100% safe, should I send the judges a rough layout of the terrain for approval, or is it generally accepted that expanding water, and altering base access points is OK?

I'm inclined to say to do what you want with the map in that respect, and the judges will look at it when it comes to final submission. In effect, whatever you want to do with the terrain is now technically acceptable, but, of course, it will be at your own discretion. After all, it will be the techtree itself that gets judged, less so the terrain.

 

[Shar Dundred]

It is an interesting question. Editing the map to have more water gives ships of a Kul Tiras
faction more usefulness, meaning that the faction will excel better with water but also worse
on maps without as much water. Ships are, in the current state of WarCraft, not part of your
usual techtree. Sadly so, I would like the ability to implement them like in the old days. Yes, I
also miss my damn oil.
A heavy reliance on water can give @Moonman's Kul Tiras faction a strength, but also a weakness
for maps without enough water.
Personally I am all for water warfare, but I can also see this causing the faction to struggle on
any maps that completely lack water.