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Patch 1.30.2 PTR Update

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Can a certain entity who intellectually owns a certain object be responsible for the changes pushed to it from others? Does that entity have the right to reject such changes? Can that entity not compromise with others regarding the state of the object in question? If any of them are negative, then is that object truly owned by that entity?

Such a question, I believe, belongs here.


On the plus side, Host bots allow such functionality as determination of ranking in a certain custom game.



On the contrapositive side, they have been correlated with the decrease in the gaming population within Warcraft 3.


I am sure that this isn't the right place to debate about the state of host bots towards our fellow Hivers, as it detracts from the main purpose of the thread itself.
 
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just a reminder that all the greatness custom maps had depends on the 3rd party solutions and not blizzard. Map optimizers, code obfuscation, syntax checker, model editing software - nothing was ever provided by game but raw editor. And now you call it to be undesirable part of wc3. Wish we could have parallel universe where those werent invented and custom map loading still takes good 5-10 mins. Sigh.
 
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Maybe? their intentions are good, but the way they are doing it and the communication can't be worse, so I can only expect the worst
Actions speak louder than intentions

I tried to prescind from the good/bad axis (Blizzard did/is good/bad/shitty/etc) on my analysis, because projecting ethics here is dull and arguably more difficult to obtain an objective forecast or insight. Unless of course you directly ask the executives what they had in mind when they did this.
Who volunteers? I think they have twitter...:gg:

1. This move done by Blizzard is rational and follows a much needed centralization policy. I even coincide (on a corporative level, as if were Blizzard executive) on the word "needed". When was the last major update? They basically conceded control (NewGen/WEX/Third Party Tools/Bots/Realm Servers/even liberal distribution of custom maps) over all these years. Such control could allow them to exploit lots of benefits, or atleast exclude free riders (on their perspective of course). For us, on the good side this control will allow them to implant their vision (top secret) for this WC3 revival campaing™ better. I think we should agree that Blizzard does things with a good dose of quality. Maybe too slow tho. Maybe too fucking slow. Also, with such control, should they mess things up, the responsability will be on their hands. Atleast we all be going with a clear conscious.

2. The power of consumers radicates on their elections. A single dude can punish Blizzard by ie. buying other games, making a 2 minute youtube rant, among other notable mechanisms. But let's face it, you're not even gonna do that. Also a collective measure here is simply utopic. Also, and as i said, you are all junkies (let me stress that), so you all will forgive Blizzard in the end, as long as they give you the next quick fix.
Hey, atleast this game was a one time purchase and didn't follow the new game business models. Unless.

3. Following this analysis, another blatant douchebaggery (but that will restore a lot of control on the custom map aspect) could be making a formal contract with the HIVE (basically a commercial license with them so the HIVE could recieve some remuneration but costing something...what could it be?), then maybe inflirtrating a Blizzard guy here with some direct power (reviewing maps/resources and such).
Suddenly one day we'll be getting discounts on Blizzard games, but having much needed spam on our mails, product placement on this site, etc.
But that's too agressive. Forget this.

I think the fireworks phase is over, now we're on the back whipping phase. Should people complain too much, then maybe we get some more fireworks, like ie. a new SetBlizzardOnFire native or some shit like that, 31 new players, and 17 new colors (the 17º is the gay flag color). Then, maybe, we'll be finally get an agreement phase.
 

~El

~El

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I think enough rhetorics have been made, and it's time to close this discussion in my opinion.

It is clear, once again, just like it was with memhack, that neither side will budge, one screaming apocalyptics, the other just trying to see where this all goes.

For now, I think, the only correct course of action is to wait for another Blizzard statement on this, and to stop this pointless bickering - I've seen the same arguments repeated ad nauseum for the last 4 pages, and at this point it's devolved into throwing expletives at each other like a bunch of immature brats, and it isn't making anyone look better or more correct.

Both sides should back up their arguments with facts and data, not unbased conjectures. The petition is a good way to gauge that, although I disagree with the ENT and MMH staff in how they worded their statements, and in my opinion, misleading many users to think that this is the end of all, rather than letting people make their own opinions and decisions. But, that ship has sailed.

At this point, the only thing that can provide more data is a public poll, just like with the most popular language in WC3, and it would be a good move for Blizzard at this point, IMO.

We are at the mercy of Blizzard and their executives. Ultimately, arguing with each other, insulting anyone who isn't on your side, prophetizing the end of WC3, etc. does nothing to convince them to change their minds. If you wish to be heard, make a statement, and do not argue further. Make suggestions. Feedback. Gather data by means of polls. I previously suggested how a public bot API or dedicated bot software maintained by Blizzard could solve this situation, and I still stand by my idea. If you have other suggestions, by all means, introduce them.

Let's be civil.
 
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Honestly, the only argumebts i see for bots, at their current stage, that is left, are additional features like autorefresh and votekick and stat tracking.

You had these features before with third party programms, without bots. These are independing from bots. The only exception is automatically stat tracking. Hosts could gain most of these features 10 years ago, before bots became rampant.

So, when talking about pro or con bots, kick the additional features out of the equation. These are a complete different topic, independing from bots.

Talking about additional features in bot games is no argument for bots themself, but for third party programms.
And i think that having these features is a good thing, and Blizzard needs to make the avaible or enable the tools, i just believe that bots need to go , also because they were a major contributor to the decline in wc3's playerbase.
 
Let's not impede progress because a change takes us out of our comfort zone please.


This is a good change and hostbots can die in a fire for all the security issues they impose alone. You should not have to rely on shady 3rd party websites to be able to play a game.
Instead of complaining about these changes, have a meaniningful discussion about how to implement the few things they provided over the vanilla game, like votekick functionality and server stats - because all these things can be natively implemented in the game client.

And let's not forget that ENT and MMH have their own reasons for boycotting the change: because for them, this means that they can shut down their business. That's right. They made money of it. If you don't see how that is connected to them trying to rally the community on their side, then you are delusional. Of course they want you to think that this is the end of the world...

Shutting down hostbots should follow the same argument as the editor debate: If we can get an official solution instead on having to rely on 3rd party software, then all power to blizzard providing a good service.
After all, we all want an accessable game that works right for everyone. Not some weird patchwork rug that requires hacking to get it going.
 
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Let's not impede progress
It is hard to call this a progress. It is a hack to aviod port forwarding(which would give subpar ping) coupled with major breakage of community tools.

security issues they impose alone
This is just laughable.

can shut down their business. That's right. They made money of it.
I wouldn't be surprised if their income is barely covering server costs.

f we can get an official solution instead on having to rely on 3rd party software, then all power to blizzard providing a good service.
At least 3rd party developer do like the game and are not out of touch with community. And they are probably more qualified to do so as 1.30 has shown.
 
It is hard to call this a progress. It is a hack to aviod port forwarding(which would give subpar ping) coupled with major breakage of community tools.
Community tools made to solve a problem that no longer exists with 1.30.2.

This is just laughable.
I fail to see a point or argument here.

I wouldn't be surprised if their income is barely covering server costs.
Story as old as time. "We are just accepting donations to cover our server cost" ... if WoW Pserver devs (see "Elysium corruption") are able to funnel donation money into their own pockets while still running a lagfree server, then so can hostbot services.
And I would argue that running an MMORPG requires better servers than a hosted wc3 game.

At least 3rd party developer do like the game and are not out of touch with community. And they are probably more qualified to do so as 1.30 has shown.
Both Kam and MindWorX are respected members among the Hiveworkshop community. Especially the latter has release an entire editor toolset free of charge for our community.
What have you done for this community?
 
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Also another thing that I must mention, blizzard employees are all silent now and pretending that they are not reading community's opinion ( I'm sure they are reading all though) they were actively replying to us mostly but now all responds are gone

As far as i know you were replying on most of the PTR and Patch threads, you should know better that this was always the case after a PTR or Patch went into testing. Its common corporate practice to wait until the dust settled amd the minds cooled off to begin the communication with the community. Devs that didn't went with sich tactics often got themself in even bigger trouble.
 
As far as i know you were replying on most of the PTR and Patch threads, you should know better that this was always the case after a PTR or Patch went into testing. Its common corporate practice to wait until the dust settled amd the minds cooled off to begin the communication with the community. Devs that didn't went with sich tactics often got themself in even bigger trouble.
Yeah , I mostly test stuff on ptr and reply to ptr threads and I was getting replies about stuff I mention from blues here, it is safe to say that the stuff I report\complain was more about modding\mpq editing that most of community don't mind but now it's a bigger thing that they can't deny and yet they decided to stay silent now
Note: That bot thing will nearly not affect me at all but I'm a law student\lawyer and I just talk with my sense of justice for one hell of people that is screwed
 

Chaosy

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Dear Blizzard, please, revert back to 1.26 and don't touch the game.
tenor.gif
 
Also another thing that I must mention, blizzard employees are all silent now and pretending that they are not reading community's opinion ( I'm sure they are reading all though) they were actively replying to us mostly but now all responds are gone

What if they are? It's not like they are going to say anything you won't bash. Their answer is not going to satisfy you.
 
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... because we will now eventually get an official editor that does the same. What's wrong with that?
Just like with bots - before having a proper replacement ready, existing community tools get destroyed - just like MindWorx' stuff.
Whether or not there will be an official replacement doesn't really matter at this point and I'm certain that many of the tools will never get an official pendant.
 
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For someone who have been playing for a very long time, I have to side with hostbots, no rage intended yet i am a little angry.

With another circumstances, I would side with Blizzard, sure the dependence on third-party tools are bad from their view and have to be removed, but they are doing so without having a good alternative, even if "they are doing so for a better upgrade in the end", in the end how much time will be, 10 months?, 2-3 years?, no one knows, not even them can do.

I think the reaction could have been more controlled if the personal hosting had features so it's could be a decent alternative. But it is not.

So when update kicks in public realm we'll have to stay with personal hosting, and a very bad game list that it's just unusable because the filters are useless for a unknown time, great (I know wc3maps.com exist, but not everyone). Not counting all the advantages bots provide (mmr, autostart, better ping, stats, banlist...).

In the other way, we have the hostbots, public or private who kept the game alive for all the time Blizzard ignored war3, concretely like 6 years, from 1.24 to 1.27.

So yeah, people has their right to be angry, specially the people from ENT and MMHost, for me it's just morally wrong to treat someone who did so much for the game like that, without any notice remove them without consideration for a supposely better end.

And after all of this, I think nothing will change, Blizzard will keep the changes because it has been always their way, sadly.
 
This patch is not on the official realm so far, isn't it? So why are people complaining about hostbots being destroyed when they are clearly still functional? I mean; I don't get it.

And people have been playing 1.24 for YEARS even after we got 1.27 and 1.28.
It's not like this patch will change ANYTHING about the community. So many people are not even playing on Bnet. This is framed like it's the end of the world when in reality, this is our best chance to finally reunite the community on Bnet once the patch is mature enough to be shipped.
 
This patch is not on the official realm so far, isn't it? So why are people complaining about hostbots being destroyed when they are clearly still functional? I mean; I don't get it.

And people have been playing 1.24 for YEARS even after we got 1.27 and 1.28.
It's not like this patch will change ANYTHING about the community. So many people are not even playing on Bnet. This is framed like it's the end of the world when in reality, this is our best chance to finally reunite the community on Bnet once the patch is mature enough to be shipped.
People are complaining to stop this patch from comming otherwise it will be too late, reuniting community will now be easier if this patch comes live everyone will move to eurobattle, not cause of protesting or something just because they have to cause it will be impossible to find custom games at bnet
 

Chaosy

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....

You think Blizzard wont put this patch out because of a few puny complaints.
Funny.

Also, for me personally I have not used a third party software to find games since 1.24~ and I wont start now. And only reason I did so was because I could not port forward which is no longer required.

Call me old fashioned but how people can want bots to pollute a lobby is beyond me. Perhaps wc3 is indeed dead after all.
 
....

You think Blizzard wont put this patch out because of a few puny complaints.
Funny.
I think there is 1%0 chance to change it, make the feature live WITHOUT ruining bots but it is too little, though well like I said it will make community united under eurobattle banner.

Edit: And no it won't affect me I'm not talking for myself just stating the facts
 
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I think the reaction could have been more controlled if the personal hosting had features so it's could be a decent alternative. But it is not.

I said that already: Bot hosting has not much more festures than private hosting already have, save for automatically stat tracking.

Almost anything else is easily obtainable by the host, given they have some 3rd party tools installed. People grown only accustomed to bots having these features, while in fact they were equipped with the tools that were on peoples disposal before.
 
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Almost anything else is easily obtainable by the host, given they have some 3rd party tools installed
I didn't know any existed, hosting features not provided by a bot, but provided by "some 3rd party tools", can you provide an example?
 
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I didn't know any existed, hosting features not provided by a bot, but provided by "some 3rd party tools", can you provide an example?

There was, around 2009, the programs listchecker, that make it able to host LAN-Games and let them show in Bnet, and visualcustomkick, which provided many features hostbots give now (Although that was very hacky and doesn't work in newest versions anymore afaik, for the second i dunno honestly). I won't link them here, because i think with these could you get banned. Since i couldn't port forward at the time, i haven't used them myself, so i haven't followed them much and cannot give you more information.

There is Autorefresh (Which you cna even find on the hive: Warcraft III AutoRefresh (Windows / Linux / Mac))

There are custom banned lists, also avaible on the hive: WC3 Banlist 3.0

And i believe there are more, i have now only shown the one i remember from that time. I believe most of these functions were implemented into bots and the former programms are sporadically developed, as much as i see it. But i am no expert there.
 
There was, around 2009, the programs listchecker, that make it able to host LAN-Games and let them show in Bnet, and visualcustomkick, which provided many features hostbots give now (Although that was very hacky and doesn't work in newest versions anymore afaik, for the second i dunno honestly). I won't link them here, because i think with these could you get banned. Since i couldn't port forward at the time, i haven't used them myself, so i haven't followed them much and cannot give you more information.

There is Autorefresh (Which you cna even find on the hive: Warcraft III AutoRefresh (Windows / Linux / Mac))

There are custom banned lists, also avaible on the hive: WC3 Banlist 3.0

And i believe there are more, i have now only shown the one i remember from that time. I believe most of these functions were implemented into bots and the former programms are sporadically developed, as much as i see it. But i am no expert there.

Theres also a tool that can give me powers to become God,and its called cocaine :D
 
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I really enjoyed the pre-chat before the chatbots, one could ask where were from or just have some normal chat.
Nowadays it's just filled with chat spam from the bot, deleting any meaningful chat one had.

Then again, I mostly just play Warcraft 3 a couple of times a year nowadays.
 
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@Kam I just bought a new laptop and the mouse is delayed in both, with and without -nativefullscr.

Specs:

- GTX 1060.
- i7-8750H.
- 16GB RAM.
- 256 GB SSD.

The delay is way huge without the command though.
 
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I am not helping out in any way right now but its worth logging on to mention that the hosting-fixes are warmly welcome. Anyone who want to be stuck on bot-hosting should... Reconsider.

GJ Blizzard, your work is well noticed even in the freezing glaciers of Norway. Please don't mind those instaragers who cry out if all their dreams don't come true in one patch. Keep it up and I'm sure we're getting somewhere. Thanks for doing what I honestly never expected.

My main map is still stuck because of TESH i guess (Used SharpCraft). I hope I can open my map again sometime and remove the features that does not work anymore and continue my stupid RPG.
 
I personally am thrilled to be rid of the host bots. They are the cancer of the game lobby and almost made me quit this game years ago before i started using MMH instead. I really think they should have added the bugfixes to a separate patch though and waited a bit with the other things which are less urgent and would benefit from a long testing period.
 
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....

You think Blizzard wont put this patch out because of a few puny complaints.
Funny.

Also, for me personally I have not used a third party software to find games since 1.24~ and I wont start now. And only reason I did so was because I could not port forward which is no longer required.

Call me old fashioned but how people can want bots to pollute a lobby is beyond me. Perhaps wc3 is indeed dead after all.

Most bots that automatically host maps do pollute the lobby (i wouldn't say that the most popular ones like the Legion TD ent bot do that tho as they fill super quickly) but those that host maps on request don't. They're just enhanced old way hosting with features such as reduced lagg, mute and ingame kick command so i would recommand getting rid of the empty autohosting bots but keeping the others.
 
You are aware that MMH is a host bot right?

Yes, of course i know that. My point was that automatic hostbots made it extremely impractical to find games the usual way, and the benefit of MMH was that it displayed a list of games which were undoubtedly hosted by real players and not with bots. Since pretty much everyone else used MMH's or ENT's listings instead of the lobby (because of the above reason), hosting a game the regular way would go unnoticed. Also of course there was the port forwarding reason, which was an equally large issue, though many contemporary multiplayer games suffered from this also.
 
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Yes, of course i know that. My point was that automatic hostbots made it extremely impractical to find games the usual way, and the benefit of MMH was that it displayed a list of games which were undoubtedly hosted by real players and not with bots. Since pretty much everyone else used MMH's or ENT's listings instead of the lobby (because of the above reason), hosting a game the regular way would go unnoticed. Also of course there was the port forwarding reason, which was an equally large issue, though many contemporary multiplayer games suffered from this also.

The reason why I don't think this is much of an issue is because if you wanted to host a game that you wanted lots of people to see, couldn't you just host it with the bots that MMH and ENT provide? that way you get visibility on the sites that almost everyone uses and its easy to find?? anyone is allowed to upload their maps to the bots so I don't see why anyone would bother manually hosting, even if they had the ability to port forward. My point is, people can use bots to their advantage to gain recognition on their maps.

Then, if your map becomes popular through that, you can take it one step further and contact ENT to make your map autohosted..
 
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The ultimate question: What happens when ENT or MMH dies out?

Do you want Warcraft 3 multiplayer Battle.net to be dependent on these third party services? I think not.

Host bots have been around for about 15 years or so and WC3 has been dependent on it. My question is: Why are they bad to be relied upon? They may not be a necessity, but they sure as hell are convenient.

I don't want them to die out, that isn't even a question to me. If Blizzard decides to proceed with the update and not give us same or better functionality that bots provide then I will leave BNET and play on other platforms where bots are allowed.
 
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I played Warcraft 3 since 2005, and the banlist program I never used, but my brother used. And it was good. But one moment, I was despising the bot, because I needed to spend money for hosting without port forwarding. But when came the MMH host and others, it made it easier to host the lobby. However, I have seen abuses in this topic of bot use, and I think they will remove same this bots. Both in the legal question, against abuse, etc.

I think it would not be laborious to do some commands in the lobby for the host and other users as Swap, Ban, Ping, etc.

Age of Empires 2 is an older game but back be updated before. It has a better lobby system than Warcraft 3, I think.
Look at these Screenshots:








 
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Host bots have been around for about 15 years or so and WC3 has been dependent on it.

There were no hostbots in 2003. They came around 2008. Technically the game thrived the most when hosting bots weren't around, although it was a different time.

If Blizzard decides to proceed with the update and not give us same or better functionality that bots provide then I will leave BNET and play on other platforms where bots are allowed.

I believe the majority of the currently used functionality can be natively supported in one way or another.
 
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@TriggerHappy Ah ty for the clarification, i don't know the complete history of wc3.

When i say functionality, I also include latency issues that hostbots fix. If they can provide that natively alongside the commands that hostbots bring, then im all for it. But will they?
 
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Without being boring, but could they not already put in that patch some of that functionality? To gladden more others, ones to stop being sad, and others lessen the frustration.
The developers give a positive answer.
 
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@TriggerHappy Ah ty for the clarification, i don't know the complete history of wc3.

When i say functionality, I also include latency issues that hostbots fix. If they can provide that natively alongside the commands that hostbots bring, then im all for it. But will they?

Latency is more to do with the physical location of the host (be it hostbot or human host). The further you're physically located from the host, the greater the latency. If you connect to a distant hostbot, the pings will not be good. I suppose Blizzard could add some sort of ping checker visible in the lobby so players can know what to expect latency wise before they begin playing?

Who knows down the track Blizzard might host the games themselves. I'd be for this so long as it behaves like Warcraft 3 and doesn't turn into Starcraft 2. They might have a few servers in different countries to improve ping.

I played Warcraft 3 since 2005, and the banlist program I never used, but my brother used. And it was good. But one moment, I was despising the bot, because I needed to spend money for hosting without port forwarding. But when came the MMH host and others, it made it easier to host the lobby. However, I have seen abuses in this topic of bot use, and I think they will remove same this bots. Both in the legal question, against abuse, etc.

I think it would not be laborious to do some commands in the lobby for the host and other users as Swap, Ban, Ping, etc.

Age of Empires 2 is an older game but back be updated before. It has a better lobby system than Warcraft 3, I think.
Look at these Screenshots:









I like how they have columns in the lobby browser for various things and the smaller writing allows a few more games to fit in the browser. If Warcraft 3 made use of the widescreen in the menus, it would allow them to fit more on the screen.

I think I prefer everything else Warcraft 3's way.
 
Latency is more to do with the physical location of the host (be it hostbot or human host). The further you're physically located from the host, the greater the latency. If you connect to a distant hostbot, the pings will not be good. I suppose Blizzard could add some sort of ping checker visible in the lobby so players can know what to expect latency wise before they begin playing?

Starting with 1.30.2 Blizzard's servers are actually hosting the games. They will apparently find a proxy server nearest to you to reduce ping. The current PTR has had reports of very high pings though so it doesn't seem to be working as intended. That, or they don't have the proxy servers set up yet.

Without being boring, but could they not already put in that patch some of that functionality? To gladden more others, ones to stop being sad, and others lessen the frustration.
The developers give a positive answer.

That is exactly what they're doing. The patch isn't even live yet.
 
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