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Patch 1.30.2 PTR Update

Discussion in 'Latest Updates and News' started by TriggerHappy, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. klemen

    klemen

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    Anyone not understanding why bots are so important has probably been living in a cave for the past 10 years. The whole point is to run your own community with your own ladder elo stats system, banlist etc, independent from Blizzard. No matter how great the new "cloud hosting" is, this functionalities will never be replaced. An educated guess of mine is that bot ban will wipe a tremendous amount of currently hosted games on official.
     
  2. chusrubi2

    chusrubi2

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    Blizzard is not a democracy. Warcraft is not Open Source. Once I've stated that, I'd like to add this:

    For years, this game has been - literally - abandoned by their creators. During all these years of lack of support, people has built an extremely rich ecosystem around the game, investing outstanding amounts of time and effort.
    This ecosystem has given us tools that have proven to be a huge improvement in every aspect they target, so in result: they make the playing experience better.

    Now, after all these years of not even teaching the support teams that Warcraft III is not WoW, the "owners" of the game come back and try to make a series of changes that will COMPLETELY REMOVE one of the most hardcore tools made by the community.

    Let's not be naive; coding a propper filter for the game list is one of the little things that would actually IMPROVE the playing experience without breaking the solutions we've made.

    And, if there is an important reason why bots should be removed, Blizzard should make a statement about that.

    Communication is the key. And once again, it's failing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  3. mori

    mori

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    It pains me so much, but this. So much this. There are much more graceful ways to handle the situation with bots, to co-operate with the community, etc. etc.

    But they choose the easiest path for themselves, not for the community.
     
  4. MyPad

    MyPad

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    Odd. There has been no reply as of late from any Blizzard employee. The community has been riled up, and I sense a growing cloud of confusion, anger, and suffering abound.

    Be wary, lest the bots fall, so too does flesh and blood...

    Sayings

    It is not the responsibility of one to implement the beneficial changes made by others on something, but it is one's
    responsibility to ensure its' use. Thus, when the latter is threatened by the issuance of the former, the latter shall,
    in all manner and dignity, supersede the former, in a manner deemed most agreeable to both parties.

    Things change, and inevitable it is. The surprise is when and how it would take place.
    Will we adapt to it, or will we be the trees of cedar, unyielding, only to give way in time?

    Quality must be ensured. Bargains must be made. Dormammus must be annoyed.
     
  5. TriggerHappy

    TriggerHappy

    Code Moderator

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    That won't solve anything. The majority of hosted games are simply bots (Currently Hosted - WC3 Maps). I proposed they add official support for hostbots and allow an option to filter them in the game list (with hostbots not shown by default), however I do not think that will happen.

    I think the game can migrate hosts in some cases, not sure. If not I would imagine it's something that could be added.
     
  6. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    Well I already read people complaining about this but even as a modder/modeler that mostly plays melee if anything, I think removal of the bots will ruin everything really, not a wise move and I think noone can defend it sometimes we must say what must not be done so just a little chance(though it is probably less than 1 percent chance) that we can change Blizzard's mind.
    Edit: I also think that hosting system (upload to blizzard, download it from there etc etc) is one of the main reasons of Sc2's failiure , and why Wc3 was prefered by people still.
     
  7. Jouven

    Jouven

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    1 With the new patch anyone will be able to host, over-saturation will still exist. The concept of "supply and demand" doesn't apply here, the game list is not a market.
    3 Hostbots don't do what they want, they do what a normal user can do with the official warcraft 3 client, plus some gimmicks that blizzard has allowed like hosting without actively playing
    4 Playing a game hosted by a bot doesn't require extra software/tools
    5 The same data you can collect hosting a game using the official warcraft 3 client plus running diagnostic tools in your OS is the same a bot can get
     
  8. Barade

    Barade

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    I have waited years for these features.
     
  9. Frotty

    Frotty

    Wurst Reviewer

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    You are kinda missing the point. It has already been explained, that "normal hosting" is almost pointless right now. Thus, users are "forced" to use a bot to get a game going.
    To use a bot you need to either install third party software or use a third party website. Blizzard can't endorse these websites nor guarantee anything working when using them. Very standard procedure.
    The same goes for privacy concerns. IP and other related data are considered personal in certain legislation, and have to be saved securely, deleted on demand etc. The key here is automation and storage.
    Blizzard could potentially get in trouble over something like this, users might get issues with these services and come to blizz support, etc. pp. many possible bad scenarios.
    Custom banlists might sound cool to people, but what if the victim comes to blizzard support, saying he can't join any games?

    I think this is all fine and good, and I accept the change, but communication with the community sucks.
    Why does the change come now, unannounced, unexplained, after years? What is the replacement gonna be? Why don't they talk with the big hosting services?
    Just a "traffic is encrypted now, good luck folks" feels like a kick in the groin.

    e: Also I think the "everyone DC if host leaves" issue is solved by not requiring port forward anymore(cloud hosted?). Might be wrong tho. Clarification on this topic would also be highly appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  10. EredarArbeiterYU

    EredarArbeiterYU

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    If you kill the bots then you are killing a part of Warcraft 3!
    Imagine ANY map that has a gameplay mechanic where one player can be killed off or simply lose before others. Imagine if the host dies 1st, he then has the "responsibility" to stay in the game (for who knows how long it will take for the rest of the players to finish) just so that others can continue playing because if he leaves then everyone will disconnect... IS THIS NOT PLAIN STUPID? People will not want to host such maps then...
     
  11. mori

    mori

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    This is actually not how it works, and it never worked like that.

    When the host from the game leaves, the game tries to re-negotiate a new host player. The issue in the past has been that, sometimes, the game would choose a player who does not have their ports forwarded, and subsequently disconnect everyone. I remember, in the past, it was kind of hit and miss, sometimes it would DC everyone, sometimes a new host would be re-elected and everything would be fine.

    I imagine now that port-forwarding is no longer an issue, the game will always find another host and it will carry on.

    Unless, of course, all games are now hosted on Blizz servers.
     
  12. Jouven

    Jouven

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    There are games with official dedicated server software, the situation here if it hasn't been clear already is like if you played Counter-strike playing with a player host vs a dedicated server, AFAIK none uses the the first option to play multiplayer except for home made lans. The main issue some of you seem to have is that the dedicated server software is not official in warcraft 3, but it's open source and you can check what it does and how it works.

    Knowing other players IP comes from bnet using lan game hosting behind the scenes, every time anyone mentions the "privacy" subject you are implying that any game with lan support has privacy issues. Then we've been having privacy issues for 15 years plus all the other games with lan support have this same "issue"

    A player host can kick other players effectively preventing anyone from joining a game, and the game doesn't even tell the player that has been kicked, it just goes back to the bnet interface
     
  13. opium911

    opium911

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    So the amount of users players Warcraft 3 on Battle.Net is ranging between approximately 2700 players in low peak(week day mornings) hours to approximately 4200 players in high peak hours(week-ends in the afternoon).
    The Warcraft 3 community is small, fragile, diminishing, and has been accustomed to specific playing habits for the past 10 years.
    We already lost people along the way because of issues related to "complex" updating methods that you have put in place with the new patches.

    Communication with the Warcraft 3 community seems to be one of your biggest weaknesses.
    Why did you not try to see the public opinion about Automated-hosted bots?
    Why did you not try to talk to the community and see what we think about them before implementing them in your builds?

    We do need Automated-hosted bots and we have been using them for the past 10 years and they have facilitated the gaming environment for most people.


    Now a lot of issues are worth noting concerning this whole matter:
    1) Based on this whole abolition of Automated-hosted bots, how did you envision custom games?
    Are we going back to the 2005 era where people used to host any game they want?
    If so, this would mean that all players in those particular games will be dependent on the host user.
    If the host user has a bad internet connection, all other users will also drop from the game.
    Doesn't seem efficient to me.

    2) Why can't both Automated-hosted bots and "standard human hosted games" co-exist?
    Nobody would be forced to play the Automated-hosted bots.
    You would have the choice to choose from.

    3) If we are dependent on a "standard human hosted games", how does Blizzard guarantee us low latency in our games?
    I remember the games we used to have in the 2005 era where we all depended on the host's internet connection and I remember very well people always complaining that they had a 2 second delay in their games and games were clearly unplayable at the time.
    Do you know what happens when people have big delays? People simply leave the games and this ruins the game for everyone else.

    4) How will "standard human hosted games" auto-refresh their games?
    Will they need another 3rd party software to do the job?
    Once again I do not see the efficiency of adding more software to do something that we already had "automated".

    5) Automated-hosted bots have created very moderated environments where people play by logical rules. People who did not play by those rules get banned. This ensured a quality game environment.

    When we talk about logical rules, we refer to:

    -Do not abuse the !vk !draw, or !ff.
    -Do not pause the game while playing in order to distract players and hinder gameplay.
    -Do not save the game.
    -Do not spam during games (chat, ping, etc.).
    -Do not flame, rage, troll, or insult other players excessively.
    -Do not leave before the game has certainly ended, especially if no other player has left.
    -Do not delay a game from starting by joining/leaving multiple times or otherwise.
    -Do not lie about modes. If you intend to choose a non-default mode or if there is no known default
    mode, announce the mode in lobby or vote ingame/in lobby.
    -Do not deceive players about rules in an attempt to get them banned/to force them to do something
    they are not obligated to such as !draw.
    -Do not dodge your bans. Dodging is defined as playing on a different account while being banned on
    another account, often by a (purposely triggered) change of the IP. Dodging is considered a major
    offense equal to maphacking.
    -The use of any utility that hides your real IP (proxies/vpns, etc.).
    -The use of any utility (FCD, maphack, stream sniping, etc.) that gives you an unfair advantage over
    other players will result in a heavy ban.
    -Do not multibox. Using two computers/two accounts to be in one (and the same) game as one human
    being is not allowed.
    -Do not threat or mock community members and do not ddos or dox them.
    -Do not teamkill (ex. blocking, maliciously using spells, destroying/hiding/stealing/massing items,
    selling towers, etc).
    -Do not go away from keyboard for an excessive amount of time, especially without telling other players
    beforehand, and/or refuse to play the game in an attempt to ruin it. Neither are you allowed to grief by
    resetting the afk timer.
    -Do not feed or suicide on purpose which negatively affects the game.
    -Do not purposely glitch or exploit the game.
    -Do not ghost by leaking information to your enemies/opponents.
    -Do not refuse to learn/and or cooperate: this does not mean being new/bad is bannable.
    If teammates shared control, do not abuse it.

    Those rules were taken from a well known Automated-hosted bots called "Enterprise Gaming".
    Reference: EntGaming:Rules - ENT Wiki

    With that being said, if there will be no longer any Automated-hosted bots, how will Blizzard guarantee us game environments that are as regulated as Automated-hosted bots?
    Those rules were there for a reason ; people want quality games and want to avoid game ruiners or maphackers.
    How can Blizzard still ensure quality of games if games are unregulated ?

    6) Automated-hosted bots also had websites on which you could track your personal improvement.
    Basically you played on your account and kept track of how good or bad you were doing by using the "ELO measurement system" in which people can compare their skills to other players.
    This whole concept created a competitive scene where people competed and played with a competitive approach at all times.
    With your "standard human hosted games", there will be no more tracking system.
    All our games would go unnoticed since we would be playing with a different human host every time.

    7) Automated-hosted bots also track offenders. They are tracked by their IP address and people who change their IP addresses also get IP range banned.
    This prevents maphackers and game ruiners to come back ruin your games simply because they changed their IP addresses.
    How will Blizzard track any offenders? Blizzard will not be able to do that.

    8) Automated-hosted bots have websites in which people can discuss.
    This brings the Warcraft 3 community together.
    Since we are a small community, why divide people into 100's of different hosts?
    With Automated-hosted bots, at least people have a common area where they can meet and discuss their custom games on a common website.



    All in all, I do not see the abolition of Automated-hosted bots as a step forward.
    This will have a negative impact ; more specifically on the whole "Custom game scene".
    As they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
     
  14. Wrda

    Wrda

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    Are there actually people that lived in a cave after all this time? The proble isn't the host bots themselves, the problem is the automated host-bots
    First of all, it was always known that normal hosting was a problem, not only if the host left other players disconnected but also the delay was pretty lame (ranged from 1s-5s). Thus no one in the right mind would do this now. When host bots came as gods, everyone left normal hosting. Later, the host bots suffered some "improvements" and seems like automated host was added. This was what started to ruin the lobby and gaming in general, starting with Wc3 TFT and then finally came to ROC (like 5 years ago) it started to get really hard finding our favourite games etc and everyone was complaining and wishing autohost bots were banned/gone. Yet a bit later, I realised there were host bot sites, both MMH and ENT suck in latency, but I get why they were created at this time.
    Getting someone's IP is completely retarded and should not be able to be done, that could be used in the wrong way
    Having an ELO system is just completely useless too, since it is just innaccurate, and if you're not lazy you can just judge people's skills when playing.
    Filter system with map name is bad since there can be a lot of versions of the same map, author of the map seems more appropriate, along with map size, ping sort is irrelevant just like map name sort.
    The automated host bots need to be gone, then MMH and ENT could be gone, any one who wants to host with a bot either can get a bot themselves or ask a friend with a bot for access.
    Completely removing all hostbots is just a big big blunder and will kill all custom games.
     
  15. EredarArbeiterYU

    EredarArbeiterYU

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    Ahh, I see. :eek: Thanks for the info.
    But still server hosted games are an awesome thing. :] They allow for utility commands, and browsing games hosted on an online bot is actually easier atm then browsing through the Battle.net list. :x
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  16. StoPCampinGn00b

    StoPCampinGn00b

    Community Manager

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    I think those angry have a right to be frustrated of the inevitable change, but I think some people are lacking perspective or are at the very least mis-remembering the past. I joined warcraft 3 a little over a decade ago and from my experience, it seemed like without a doubt that the majority were frustrated with bots. The most common complaint was that it was hard to find a game with all the bot and dota spam, the 24/7 dead lobbies and such. Over time, these people left, but who remained? The absolutely hardcore base of Warcraft 3 remained because they knew how to get access to bots and navigate in a 3rd party controlled community. The average player does not know how to do this, but what we see now is that the remaining community does because we're all concentrated on discord, the forums, etc. During the period of bots, any returning player who doesn’t know of resources like MMH and ENT or port forwarding is absolutely screwed.

    Blizzard is obviously looking long term in satisfying a majority playerbase - that's what companies need to do and it is healthier for the game overall. I championed MakeMeHost and to an extent, ENT, for years on Hive and other communities despite never being a part of their staff. I understood how important these entities were in a time where hosting didn't look like they would be fixed even if there was a demographic who didn't like them. I think that main point missing here is that while bots kept the game alive on basically life support, there is little room for growth if bot communities are the ones in control. I don't blame the playerbase though, it's completely understandable to get used to the way it's been for a decade for them to change it. Changes like this usually mend over in time.

    I think it is unfair to suggest that they're killing the game for fixing possibly the most requested problem in the Warcraft 3. I understand that they did only did what’s needed regarding ease of hosting, lobby numbers, and cross-realm - but I don’t think some people grasp how massive that is to be built in all at once in the actual client. Just because the elite community, for lack of better words, takes a blow right now, does not mean the casual userbase will not benefit. This dynamic plays out in lots of games and both sides don't see the opposing side since it's a matter of prestige vs majority. And while I understand that it is arguable that the majority of the current custom game player base right now will be affected, it's still a step forward to rebuilding the game for the majority throughout the years (the obvious market in any sort of return).

    So my end point is that it is okay to be frustrated, but it is absurd and counterproductive to take an us vs Blizzard stance. Even if you believe that these changes are the end all, there is no use to rage, two wrongs don't make a right.

    In addition, Blizzard has aware of all the features bots bring for years. I’m 100% sure of this as I myself and many others have explained this to them. They've received lists of all the bot features, they received links to all the bot resource and tutorial sites, they've had contacts from those who work within, and of course they've seen all the different arguments regarding bots for years and years. To me, it seems pretty obvious that there will be more to come for improve hosting and the overall online experience.

    So if we take attention away from bots, and onto the actual features, you get:
    1. A system where literally anyone can host
    2. Lobby numbers in game
    3. And cross-realm options
    4. Less lobby spam and no more channel raid spam
    In addition, no you don't get dropped if the host leaves. The download is faster and the cloud system is nice.
     
  17. mori

    mori

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    I hope for the sake of everyone involved that this is not the only thing we'll have improved in regards to the default hosting system. There are some things that we grew so accustomed to, that without them, WC3 just feels plain incomptenet in comparison. Things like an online listing of games on a website are an absolute life-saver if you're looking to play a game, but don't want to boot up WC3 just yet. Making the game browser able to show more games, and take advantage of modern high-resolution screens (FullHD and higher) is something very much missing. Right now, while it is a step in the right direction, it is a massive downgrade. There's no need to rush this, but I am concerned, as well as everyone else here, that we will have to wait a long time for Blizzard to come to par with what the host bots provided.

    I'm sure if this PTR was delayed and if they introduced at least a better game browser (filter by name, better refreshing, taking advantage of modern resolutions), far less people would complain. Some other additions, I'm sure, are also easy to implement, like a /latency command, a /kick command, so on, which are very, very, very useful in almost any game.

    Once again, if Blizzard fully intends to implement additional features over time to bring regular hosting on par with bots, then this is just an issue of miscommunication - a very, very long-running issue. This could all have been avoided with a simple addition to the patch notes on what their future plans with regards to the hosting system are.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  18. klemen

    klemen

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    loled @ blizzard apologists.. Completely clueless. Without bots W3 would be dead in like 2010. The only thing that saved it was dedicated bot hosting and DotA/CG communities around it. Now suddenly after 10 years the bots are somehow a problem.. just lol.
     
  19. mori

    mori

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    Interesting turn of events.

    Reposted from ENT website.

    I'm honestly surprised.

    And, I think, this is a big mistake. This just shows everyone that custom host bot services cannot be relied upon, because they are subject to the whims of a few shitbags who want to make a void statement that will be ignored anyway. Good going, guys. Keep up the great work. Enjoy your last moments of relevance.

    Because when this patch hits mainline, all of you are going to fade into irrelevance. And I don't think you can change jack shit about it by acting like a bunch of immature kids.
     
  20. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    I think this is the exact right move to be honest,if they were ignoring the bots last chance would be gone directly