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Reforged Warcraft III Reforged - Artistic/Textures/UI Feedback

Discussion in 'Patch & Reforged Discussion' started by Sieben, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. Nemesis_

    Nemesis_

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    Some problems I have with Reforged;
    Artstyle: Shares too much resemblance with HotS(too smooth and clean) and doesn't give me the Warcraft 3 vibes anymore. It feels like if HoTS had a world editor!
    UI: Not a fan of the new UI and would rather the old building grid. The old building grid allowed for techtree "layers", eg. The tier 1 techtree on the first row and tier 2 on second row... etc.
    This also allows player to use QWER for building and what not.
    Not sure how inventory would work, but I think that's not too big of a problem.

    (Am also hoping for an option in the world editor to allow more units to be selected at once, allowing "Risk" custom games to be played much easier)
     
  2. Triceron

    Triceron

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    Lore is by far the biggest criteria for me. With alternate skin options and female zombies in the picture, they need to be careful what they open up to and what they keep the same.

    Blood Elves for example have green eyes in TBC to fit them better in lore and alongside the greenskinned orcs. Yet this was not a thing for War3 and shouldnt be a thing until they reach Outland. Small details like this are important. Giving them green eyes at the start of the TFT campaign would break the lore behind their change.

    Another would be named heroes sharing models with generic ones. The stormreaver warlock Maiev meets shares the same model for Guldan in the flashback. I think two separate models will be best.

    Blackrock champions in the original campaign should also have dark skin and not be the demonic type. They should be remnants of Rends dark horde.

    I hope they can add different models for the dreadlords too. It was hard to make out who was who in their meetings.

    Shandris and Naisha should get their own models too. They were never differentiated like the alliance footman Captain.

    Also I really want the easter egg modelsbremade too. Zergling, hydralisk, even the orc chaos space marine. PlzaddETCtoo.

    [​IMG]

    Crypt Queen Zagara skin
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2018
  3. Gluma

    Gluma

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    God damn it people, I was about to write down all my thoughts on the artstyle and now when I come here you pretty much already said everything I had to say.

    My main gripes are the violent clash between more realistic body proportions and cartoony outfits, which out-ridiculous even those from vanilla. It worked good there because it had both the bodies and armor designs hyper-stylised. You don't just put warcraft armour on real people and expect it to like like anything other than a cosplay party getting violently out of hand (I'm looking at you, Warcraft the movie)

    And yeah, the footmen look too lavish, as it was already said. That's not how you dress your conscript cannon fodder. I loved the plain and simple look of the vanilla footies, like their absolutely awesome PLAIN AND SIMPLE BREASTPLATES (yes, blizzard, just one plain and solid plate is sometimes enough), or their non-gigantic minimalistic shoulderpads
     
  4. EredarArbeiterYU

    EredarArbeiterYU

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    Honestly though, for us humans it sholdn't really be easy (or even possible) to differentiate between a female and a male Nerubian. :p
    They should both look sorta simmilar. I mean we have the Nerubian Queen model in Wc3, and it isn't much different then others. :D
    I mean really? Nerubian woman with breasts and a humanoid face while Anubarak looks like a simple oversized armored roach? :p They don't fit. haha but Ladybug Nerub would be rich. :D

    The one thing I MOST hated about Dranei in WoW (and the reason I will NEVER play them) is the huge disparence between male and female physical form - while males look like buffed up mudafakas that spend entire days at a gym and taking creatine, larger then Orcs and about the same size as Taurens MEANTIME theyir women look like fucking models, slim and cute! NO! THEIR WOMEN NEED TO BE FATTER TO FIT THEIR MALES! :D Fuck that race, Dranei in Wc3 are much more cooler then the perfectass nerds from WoW.
    I mean I understand that they need to share some resemblence to the Eredar but why make them so fat? They look like baloon versions of action figures. :p
    If Orcs and Tauren get cowy women, why should the blue baloons get perfect women??
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  5. Vidovit

    Vidovit

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    I agree that many things look too plastic.
    Arthas looks like an anime character, where did his bushy brows go?
    Footmen should become more plain, but keep the model for captain or royal guard.
    Buildings look placed on their location, instead of built. So more connection to the ground.
    Really dislike orc towers, they are too spiky and not realistic. Imagine having 15 of them next to each other.
    Tauren has too big totem, rifleman too big compared to footmen.
    Infernal in intro is a smiley face.

    I don't think the general look will change so hopefully these specifics can be adjusted.
    Generally i like the art style but i agree it should all be more like the original.

    Also i understand voices are to be changed because of IP; for example the Arthas voice actor from war3 no longer works for Blizzard etc.
    I even think many people would like new music, for example imagine the barrens music from wow when you're doing thrall mission in barrens.
     
  6. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    They still haven't made zombie kids and pets/farm animals.
    Hell no.
    Actually, the lower part looks bigger like that of some (black) African women.
     
  7. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    As long as the WoW goat people don't make it into Wc3 as Draenei I'm fine

    Also @Triceron Gul'dan and Drak'thul models were different and damn they are my second favorite models I hope they won't change Gul'di with his half demon WoW look...
     
  8. Tauer

    Tauer

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    After looking at the models some more, I find that the problem doesn't lie in the proportions being too absurd, rather in them not being absurd enough. The issue is that all the armour, weapons and gear have the usual Warcraft-y exaggerations (as they should), yet the anatomical features are way more realistic than before. This creates a sort of disconnect and ends up looking jarring for some people. I think the solution here wouldn't be to reduce the exaggeration of the gear (and thereby losing the ever important silhouettes) but to make the anatomical features way more pronounced, like making the heads, hands and feet bigger. I think this would make the art style feel more in line with the old one, while still keeping the modern feel that they have achieved so far.

    Saying that it looks plastic is just silly to me. This is most likely because some people are too used to WC3 only having diffuse maps, which makes them look very flat. Reforged uses PBR (physically based rendering) maps to achieve a much more realistic and dynamic look, hence the delicious shininess of the weapons and armour. Equating this to "plastic-ness" seems a bit disingenuous to me. Another thing I cannot agree with is saying that the old footman model was somehow better. I'm sorry, but the vanilla footman model is probably the shittiest model Blizzard has ever made. Ever.

    Another tweak that I think could be cool is the introduction of impact particles when a unit is hit. This could be changeable in the World Editor, so unarmed units would bleed when hit, and armoured units would send sparks flying. Could do a lot to make the combat feel more visceral and impactful. As it is right now there seems to be a lack of impact when a unit is attacked, and this is somehow more noticeable with the more realistic art style and upgraded animations. Speaking of animations, introducing "hit" animations could help a lot in this area as well, but this might add some compatibility issues with the SD version. Ragdoll effects on death could be great too but again might bring some compatibility issues. Something to consider at least.

    That's really all I have to say about the art style. All in all, I think it looks fantastic, and with a few tweaks, it would be perfect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  9. Abelhawk

    Abelhawk

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    I agree with a bit of everything everyone's saying here. The body proportions do look odd, but that's because they made the bodies too realistic for the models in Warcraft 3, so the dissonance is jarring. If you look at the original War3 Arthas's head, it's huge compared to his body, but it looks fine in the bulky armor he has. Arthas looks weird because his head has been shrunk to normal size inside the same suit of armor. Either go all out on proportions or dial it back, but you can't do one way and the other on anatomy and gear.

    I think the only thing I'm concerned about is that the animations didn't quite look right in the gameplay video of the battle. The tauren in particular didn't seem to realistically swing their totems. With increased realism like this, I think maybe there should be some kind of bash or blood effect when units attack each other, because it just felt weird to see the tauren swing his totem at a rifleman and the rifleman didn't flinch. It might be another example of dissonance where in original War3, the graphics were poor enough for stuff like that to go unnoticed. But with better graphics now, there may be a new need for animation changes like that.

    I hope that Warcraft 3 stays true to its status as being made before World of Warcraft while also making room for smoothing out the transition from Warcraft 3 to World of Warcraft. That is, I hope they don't up and retcon all the models of Warcraft 3 to fit with WoW. They should be distinctly original, but with some elements that help harmonize their changes later on. An example I can think of in this was mentioned earlier: The blood elves should have green eyes only after they join Illidan in Outland. Before that, being high elves, their eyes were gold or blue.

    Someone also mentioned this, but I think effort should be made in making sure that duplicate models used for cinematic purposes should be done away with. The flashback in the Tomb of Sargeras should show actual Gul'dan and a silhouette of actual Sargeras, rather than just a Stormreaver Warlock and a Doom Guard. I'm sure they'll do all the cutscenes really well, though, so I'm not worried.

    I disagree with everyone saying it doesn't keep the feel of Warcraft 3. It looks much more brightly colored than Heroes of the Storm and hails back to that almost cartoony look that Warcraft 3 had. I think they can smooth everything out so that it doesn't look like plastic, but I think texturewise they're on the right track.

    Lastly, I hope the special effects are improved. This is probably on the backburner for a good reason, but disease cloud, fire doodads, and even maybe Arthas's devotion aura should all be improved to fit in with the look of everything else. Everything should look brand new and distinct.

    Besides that, I'm really excited for Warcraft Reforged. I love the loading screen look and I think they're on track for making an amazing remastered version of my favorite PC game of all time.
     
  10. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    They still called themselves the Blood Elves after Quel'thalas, no, Silvermoon fell.
    I don't remember it being confirmed that the Doom Guard was indeed Sargeras. Gul'dan might have thought it was but that's another thing.
    Not very fond of all changed FX. For instance the Resurrection angel is not a being of light anymore but made of gold.

    Also, changing all icons to those of WoW is not such a good move. Sure, WoW fans will right away recognize them but Warcraft RTS players will have to adapt.
     
  11. Triceron

    Triceron

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    Proportions are off but we can't judge until we get it in our hands and get accustomed to the way they look in context to the game. Videos and screenshots are very deceiving. I have to say, I felt the same way about original Warcraft 3 compared to Warcraft's clean cartoony style or Starcraft's rendered sprites. Hands were cubes, feet were giant blocks and it felt so odd watching them all squash and stretch oddly. Just look at the Knight's portrait and the way his jaw flaps like a muppet.

    But we all got used to it and it became second nature. I feel like we just need to give the graphics a bit of time because we all aren't used to seeing them in context to the world.

    I do think they stand out and the units and environments don't meld together cleanly yet, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that this is just an early look before polish. Following the Starcraft 2 visual development, there was a huge jump in graphics within the last year before the game came out. I just hope this is given the same amount of care that the main teams would put into it.
     
  12. Mr.Goblin

    Mr.Goblin

    Art and Graphic Design Moderator

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    My main concerns are =
    1 - The material they are using, Everything seems to have a gloss that feels plastic and unatural. Either reduce the reflections or what not, but it really makes everything looks like figurines.

    2 - The terrain texture work.... The textures in warcraft3 looks far better then the one in reforge.... why.... D:, warcraft3 had that realistic estetic for the tilesets but with blasted satured colors. It looked very nice. In Reforge, it seems like handpainted but with a lack of blending. By looking at the Grass and Long grass textures shown in the Demo, they really don'T blend well. In warcraft3 at least the borders felt more natural. - Same for the city textures. I feel like the blending between all the tilesets aren'T working proprely.

    3- These cliffs textures are HOOOORRRIBLE! OH GAWD WTF.

    4 - The units are overdetails (3D sculpted wise). I'd rather have nice looking painted textures then over the top zbrush relief. Due to aspect it looks very wierd. WOW had a great balance of using textures for details over sculpted details.

    5 - Art direction = As much as I like the 3D models they are showing, I feel like they didn'T quite hit the mark to bring back a warcraft3 feel. I feel like they choose details over design. The footman for example had a huge shield with a white border. this made it easily identifiable in the gameplay. In the reforge version, it just feels like an other hero unit. Small details are to be considered.

    ----------------------
    I also hope they have better dynamic lights. in Reforge to allow modders to create epic atmospheres. Also, I'd like to see some proper FPS and racing games from the reforge, I'd like blizzard to give us proper tools to be abble to create such games.
     
  13. Tauer

    Tauer

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    Am I the only one who doesn't see the "plastic" thing? I mean, how does this look plastic? Only things that are shiny are things that are supposed to be shiny, like armour. This is one complaint I really don't get. I mean, it's all fair to prefer the handpainted look of WoW/WC3 to the more realistic PBR style, but again I think calling it "plastic" is disingenuous.

    I dunno, I just think people are taking the whole "please provide feedback" thing a little too seriously. Obviously, they're not going to change the entire art style of the game and throw out months of work just because some people prefer one art style over the other. It just seems a bit nitpicky to me. Instead, I think we should be focusing on providing suggestions that they actually can implement.

    I don't think that's entirely fair. I think it's pretty obvious that these ground textures are better than these. I don't really think that hyperboles like these help anything, to be honest.

    They confirmed that the materials for Reforged use PBR technology, which gives me hope for some awesome improvements to the lighting engine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  14. Sieben

    Sieben

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    Good point here. It would be better if proportions were either more realistic (an option that most people will probably reject) or, as @Abelhawk and you said, more pronounced. To be honest, I have a preference for semi-realistic WoW proportions (with reasonably-sized weapons!), but I would be more than happy if the original Warcraft III style, with similar proportions, is respected.

    It's not that original footman was excellent per say (it's not the best model indeed), but he was more recognizable and he was looking like some regular random soldier, not a hero with shiny epic armour :)

    This is a great idea!

    As for the plastic thing, well again it's probably a matter of taste, but I've seen several people having this impression too. The picture you linked is precisely the one that made me think that. It's not about being shiny, it's probably just the textures that give me that feeling. However, I'll put some water in my wine here: the "plastic issue" is certainly not my main concern; also, seeing a grunt on a picture and seeing a grunt moving in the battlefield are two different things, and the plastic feeling might vanish once I tried the game and got used to it. Wait and see!

    I don't think Blizzard should throw away their entire work on graphics, of course, but I've seen so many people having hesitations about some visual choices (I read a lot of comments about graphics on Youtube, Hive and official forum). And we know this is a work in progress, so there will be changes. Actually, despite my feedback which might seem demanding with so many specific details, I actually believe Reforged graphics are not so far from being really good. :)
    But there are issues that many people have spotted, and it would be nice if Blizzard could address as many of them as possible. I mean, we're talking about Warcraft III here, the game is legendary, and fans love it so much, it would be a disappointment if the final product was too distinct from the original style and atmosphere, wouldn't it?

    Anyway, it's nice to see people sharing constructive ideas about this topic, and it's good that artists such as @Tauer and @Mr.Goblin do it too, thanks guys.
     
  15. Scias

    Scias

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    It really does look like a board game with "living" figures rather than a real setting with natural creatures and environments. Everything looks quite plastic to me, especially on a screenshot like this, for example leather and tiles on the great hall look as if they're made out of same material. I'm not sure if this is the art style they wanted to go for or if it just somehow mistakenly turned out this way, but I can see how the style change wouldn't appeal to some Warcraft 3 fans - for me personally the change isn't a big deal, I find it quite interesting..

    Off the gameplay videos I've seen on twitch and youtube the graphics look a lot less saturated in comparison to images you can find on google, I feel like the google images with more saturated colors resemble the old Warcraft 3 slightly more, kinda confused with the difference here, are the colors desaturated because of the campaign level having some sort of fog effect or the pictures on google are enhanced (don't see a point in that)?

    My biggest disappointment really is the peasant and probably peon models (haven't seen the peon yet), but the peasant looks a lot more generic now, the soundset doesn't fit the model at all anymore since the unit lost all the goofyness of the original concept and now is just a generic worker guy you'd find in a realistic RTS game (like Age of Empires).. It's also surprising how muscular these guys are, why aren't they recruited as footmen or knights being this tough looking! Same for their militia version, it's a lot more serious and a lot more realistic and there's no unique nor interesting character in the new designs.

    Footmen and knights became a lot more generic aswell, you can't really "identify" the unit like you used to - like Grubby was saying about the design of the rifleman compared to the footman. Knights used to have this cool arrogant appeal in their expression and looks, which is gone now too. I think also having the footmans helmet show less of his face than it did on original model makes him look like a less important character (again like Grubby was saying "one of the many").
    They made the armors of the units darker in order to push realistic plate shinyness, but that makes the units blend slightly more into the background. For example, originally knights and footmen armor was using brighter palette than the palette used on a Tower (which made them stand out more in comparison to a tower), with the new graphics update it's the opposite way around. This is another thing that makes a difference between the new riflemen and footmen/knights, riflemen having the bright white beard stand out quite a lot in comparison, even more so considering they preserved the original rifleman concept. Only issue with riflemen is the size, they seem larger than footmen - not sure if their scale value is actually larger or they just appear to be larger due to brightness of their model (due to beard and team coloring of the cape).

    That's about all I got for now, if I sound too harsh I just wanna say that I'm really hyped for this remaster and I actually do like the graphics for most part and from what I can tell so far, I'm also really glad to see Blizzard put this much effort into Warcraft3, and I'm totally hyped to see the female versions of the heroes and new skins or whatever cool stuff Blizzard has in store for us in action!
     
  16. Keiji

    Keiji

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    I don't think the units look too detailed, I don't think they should "downgrade" the level of detail
    on any units, I think the art style is amazing and I love that Blizzard is actually doing this, where
    I do take issue, though, is with the silhouettes.

    And I must say that I kind of agree with HT here, the level of anatomical correctness, especially for
    the humans, is part of what makes the silhouettes too... Difficult to tell apart. As it stands, I find that
    many of the units are too similar and that a simple glance won't be enough to quickly decide what unit
    composition an army has. Furthermore it takes away from the character of the units, take the knights,
    for instance, the knight just looks like a footman on a horse, it doesn't have the same level of flair as
    it had in the old version.

    This is mostly directed at the humans, though, because that's the race we've seen the most of and
    because its the race with least diversity of races.
     
  17. Augustus

    Augustus

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    First of all, I really appreciate all the detail put into the models and while I am really excited about the possibilities of PBR, I am not entirely sure the realistic texturing works in Warcraft. It is indeed true that Warcraft 3 is more realistic to WoW, or at least closer to vanilla wow but that realism comes from the proportions and the style of the armors, not from the colors. As far as colors go, even modern WoW still looks like Warcraft 3. It kinda stopped looking like Warcraft 3 once every piece of armor became super huge and ornate, having lots of impossible details for the sake of awesomeness.

    Here is how metal is supposed to look in Warcraft:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    See? It's a lighter shade of gray and also looks a bit matte. Compare to:

    [​IMG]

    want to repeat that the realism the devs mentioned comes NOT from the textures but from the shapes of the armor. Don't make it too awesome and overly detailed. Compare the footman from the image I posted to the new one.

    Also, the sword the Footman uses looks very strange, not at all reminding me of realism/believability. It looks like a green from WoW that no one would ever use.

    upload_2018-11-6_9-31-30.png

    Make it look more like this, realistic but stylized:

    [​IMG]

    Finally, the terrain and buildings look good but are strangely desaturated. To recap, the realism comes from the models, not from the colors.
     
  18. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    As a person who played games like Armies of Exigo, I don't have a problem with it. But, yes, some might have to adapt. I really like it that they've gone for realism but they still have to do more to get there; see Arthas' armour and weapon size (he can't even see on the sides because of the shoulder armour).

    And most importantly, they should just make the old characters/creatures in the current highpoly art not change them dramatically as to become unrecognizable/new creatures/characters.
    Wait, why does it have the cross sides upward? That doesn't look like the Footman's sword at all.
     
  19. JimmyJoJameson

    JimmyJoJameson

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    The sword looks terrible, mostly because the crossguard is comically big. The blade is sort of weirdly shaped too, instead of just straight like you'd expect, but that doesn't bother me as much since it's similar to the original footman. It all seems like an easy fix though, and I agree the sword on the crest of Lordaeron would be a much nicer choice.
     
  20. Augustus

    Augustus

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    Maybe they made the pommel so big because they wanted to make sure you could see it from a bird's eye view. Doesn't change a fact that it looks like an ugly WoW green item.

    Anyway, I know Blizzard are reading this. I appreciate all the effort going into this but they really need to get it right. And as much as I love PBR as a 3D modeler, I am not sure it fits in WoW. What you see in the screenshots I posted is really how "realistic" metal is supposed to look like in Warcraft.