Reforged Warcraft III Reforged - Artistic/Textures/UI Feedback

Discussion in 'Patch Discussion' started by Sieben, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. Sieben

    Sieben

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    Greetings Hive!

    So there has been a lot of discussion about Reforged already, with a great deal of hype and hopes, but also questions, concerns and speculation. What matters now is that the final product is still a work in progress and Blizzard employees stated several times they were going to have a lot of discussion with the community. They expect us to provide feedback. I guess it may be the time for us to start doing it (in a "cleaner" way than the announcement thread, which already has 21 page when I'm writing this), and hopefully Blizzard will heed our call! (Inviting you here @Kam , if you don"t mind)

    I suggest we start off, in this thread, with feedback about visual changes: graphics, design and UI, which are the biggest change so far. To keep it easier to follow, it is perhaps better to provide feedback about other subjects in another thread (audio, campaigns, gameplay, lore retcons, World Editor changes, concerns about custom models...). Also, we will want to bring more remarks and suggestions as the rest of the game is revealed to us in the next months to come.

    Let's try to be as specific and constructive as possible, not just deliver only vague and general opinions! i'll give it a shot myself, feel free to follow along. :)


    UI:
    • I'm not a big fan of the new UI aesthetics, but I like that its size has been reduced, it provides a better view of the field, and it gives room for further modifications (I'm still hoping for a wider unit selection and more slots for buttons and inventory!)
    • Portrait area: I would prefer if there was a frame around the unit and a background. Also, I find portraits are a bit too big and invasive. I'd like portraits to be mostly about showing the unit's face, with their facial expressions.
    • Icons: I feel like icons miss a larger rim (except for passive abilities, of course), which would make the buttons look like they're in 3D, like the original ones. Right now they seem rather flat.

    Units:
    • Proportions of almost all units:
      • Almost all units I've seen so far have absurd proportions. It is ok to have stylized units with unrealistic proportions, just like in the original game. However, new units proportions so far are way over the top, and don't match original units. New units would be better with exaggerated proportions, but not too much, just like the original game.
      • Most weapons are oversized. Arthas' hammer is probably the worst. I mean, the man has a hammer ten times the size of his head, this is ridiculous. I really wonder why this aesthetics choice has been made since WoW, I always found it ludicrous, but there is no need to introduce it into Warcraft III (which already had oversized weapons, there is no need to amplify this). Tauren's log, paladin's hammer... have the same issue.
      • Some units have their head way too small compared to the rest of the body, they look really silly with their tiny head (Arthas is the worst).
      • Almost all units have oversized armours. Again, I understand it's a deliberate choice and not just a modeling mistake, but I really don't like it and I'm not the only one. The worst armour parts are spaulders, they are way too big on so many units: grunts, Arthas, footmen... Not only does it give a weird look to units, especially when they have such puny heads, but it's also totally unrealistic: how are fighters supposed to see what's happening in battle when having these large eye-blinders on both shoulders? Keep it sensible, guys!
    • Heroes:
      • Heroes have always been larger and taller than regular units, and it's a good thing. But now, isn't a bit too much, for some heroes (at least Arthas)? If you take a look here, for example, you'll see Arthas is twice the size of a footman, who look sooo teeny tiny compared to his master. I think heroes are recognizable enough, no need to exagerate their size. Blademaster seems ok though.
      • Arthas has such a long neck! And a tiny head! Also, giving him a more arrogant face would be nice.
    • Footman:
      • Footman design is very nice, however he doesn't look like a "real" footman. He's too epic, too noble, too fancy. He looks like a hero (like this iconic hero from game cinematic) or some commander, not a regular infantryman. Therefore, a few suggestions:
        • Remove the golden rim from some armour parts
        • Reduce the size of spaulders (drastically!)
        • Maybe remove the tabard
      • Another idea, that came from Grubby's streaming at Blizzcon and another video from Grubby: make the footman more recognizable. His design is not close enough to the original one, and it's harder to recognize footmen in the middle of an army.
    • Peasant:
      • Head is a tiny bit too small, perhaps.
      • Apart from that, they are quite nice. Militia is pretty cool, too. I would only swap their sword for an axe, like in the original game. Axe is more appropriate for a peasant: he already carries one around all the time to chop wood, and from a realistic point of view, a sword is expensive to craft/buy, not everybody can afford one! :)
      • It's odd to see a peasant building a structure using his axe!
    • Grunt:
      • Is the beard absolutely necessary? I can't get used to the idea that every single grunt of my army will have the exact same beard.
      • Design is not bad, however I feel like textures make grunts look like plastic figurines (mostly when using a close-up view)
      • I think grunt's body is slightly oversized. In Warcraft 1 and 2, grunts and footmen used to have pretty much the same size; in Warcraft III and WoW, orcs are a little bit larger than humans. Perhaps it would be better to stick with either choice, but not make grunts so bulky (they almost have the size of a tauren right now, in my opinion)
    • Tauren:
      • Texture looks like plastic figurine too.
      • The weapon is way too big. It's obvious when you compare it with the original tauren.
    • Knight:
      • I don't have too much complaint about knights, they look quite nice from what I've seen. I only dislike their lance that they barely use if not at all, but it's not about Reforged, it has always bugged me in vanilla Warcraft III! :) (I'd rather have a shield)
      • One thing maybe could be tweaked: knights colours are too dark, which makes them too different from the original model and harder to identify in the battlefield.
    • Rifleman:
      • Design is very nice, nothing much to say. I'm just having one doubt: it's hard to tell when only watching videos, but isn't rifleman a bit too tall, compared to footmen, for example? Feels like they have almost the same size, unless I'm wrong.
    • Mal'ganis:
      • Some people have been complaining about the absence of tail.
    • Undead units (ghoul, abomination, necromancer, skeletons):
      • Skeletons:
        • I would remove the shield, which seems unnecessary. But it's no big deal.
      • Ghouls:
        • The main issue would be colours, too much grey, while it used to be pale yellowish in the original game. Units need to be more recognizable. It's not a big issue though, I could live with it, as long as it doesn't decrease efficiency, especially when playing melee games.
        • Ghoul's team colour should be more visible.
      • Not much more to say about other undead units so far.
    • Units hit in combat:
      • Units don't react when hit in combat. Particles like blood when hitting flesh and sparks when hitting metal armour would be a nice addition. Also, there could be a hit animation. (thanks Abelhawk and Tauer for the idea)
    As for other units, it's too soon, we didn't have the chance to see them closely enough or see them at all.


    Buildings:
    • General opinion about buildings: human and orc buildings I have seen so far are too cartoonish and look like plastic toys. They look totally out of place. I suppose textures are to be blamed (but also maybe the meshes, which are probably too stylized). Also, all buildings lack ground texture, which make them look like they were just dropped on the map like a SC2 supply deposit, but I suppose it's something that is planned for the next future.
    • Human buildings in general:
      • Most human buildings look too round, while they used to be more linear. This is one of the things that make them too cartoony or toyish. There is nothing wrong with linear walls! :)
    • Human barracks:
      • Way too small. The four towers are really tiny. It's obvious when compared to other buildings such as farms and lumbermill (which have been enlarged a lot!). Barracks should be a tiny bit higher, and towers should be much larger. I suppose there is a limitation here, so the model doesn't go beyond the structure's pathing, but please, go as far as you can so barracks don't look like some puny Playmobil replica of a real building! Apart from that, barracks are ok.
    • Human farms:
      • Farms look rather larger than before, I'm not unhappy with it, it brings more realism.
      • However, I dislike the textures, which look like plastic, once again.
    • Human towers:
      • I find human tower not big enough, compared to the original ones. The latter looked a bit more massive, while the new towers look a bit too thin.
    • Human altar of kings:
      • The Lordaeron banner looks cool, but it is unnecessary. It ruins all the potential of altar of kings in custom maps, because all custom maps don't take place in Lordaeron, all humans are not from Lordaeron, etc.
    • Castle:
      • Castles lines are definitely too curvy.
      • Towers size could be slightly increased.
    That's all about buildings for now, I didn't see the other buildings enough.


    Graphics and art style:
    • Some people, including me, are bothered with the graphics choices that have been made for Reforged. New graphics don't seem to capture the spirit of the original game, it doesn't feel quite like the same game at all. The atmosphere is different. Reforged style is close to modern games such as HotS (or also Fortnite, Civilization 6...), but it would have been wiser to update and enhance the original style instead of completely transforming it to follow the modern graphics trends.
    • For example, environment is not too bad in itself, but its textures are too smooth, too bright, the colours are too washed-out (too childish maybe?), and don't reflect the original atmosphere of the game.
    • Plastic-looking and cartoonish buildings.
    • Well-designed units, but some of them look like plastic figurines (grunt, tauren), and most units are probably overdetailed.
    • There may be a contrast between environment (bright, smooth...), semi-realistic units with strong WoW inspiration, and over-cartoonish buildings. Seems like environment, units and building come from three different games. Looks like it lacks cohesion.
    • Also, see what I said about oversized weapons and armours, and body proportions. Right now, just like on WoW, these oversized parts look so ugly and absurd, in my humble opinion.
    • There are many, many people who are not happy with the art style. I read various comments here and there (Hive, Youtube...) and there is clearly something wrong with the graphics. You may have a look at Grubby's video here and read the comments. It is best to see the same idea expressed in various ways by different people. I read several times there was too muc inspiration from WoW and HotS. I think a vast majority of people prefer an improvement of the existing graphics style and atmosphere, not a complete transformation.

    So, these are my thoughts after the first glance we had at Blizzcon. Whether you are happy or not with Reforged new assets, it would be nice if there was more feedback and some constructive debate. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  2. SMBComix

    SMBComix

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    I'm personally VERY happy with Reforged. Until I've actually played it, I can't really give any criticism. Love the graphics.
     
  3. SadisticLeprechaun

    SadisticLeprechaun

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    I watched the vids, I love the new graphics. TBH I love oversized weapons and I don't mind if every basic unit looks heroish. I would love realism, but buildings are so damn small compared to units I gave up on that long ago. If they made maps much bigger with buildings being very large then I would want them to rock more realism. Imagine if a Town Hall was like at least 5x the size...

    Anyhow I love the new models :)
     
  4. WhiteFang

    WhiteFang

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    Some of my issues

    The Artstyle.It really feels and looks like a mod for HoTS.It's so clean and smooth looking and really does not give me the feel of a Warcraft game
    The Portraits.I prefer the old style portraits,with a border as well as talk animations and moving of the head
    Proportions.Now,Warcraft III had some out of proportion things,but this is next level
    Colors:The colors,for me at least,seem very bright.This isn't a issue most of the time,but the troll's extremely light blue skin just doesn't look right to me
     
  5. Goffterdom

    Goffterdom

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    Hello there, great initiative!

    Overall it feels like new textures are maybe too "noisy" in terms of details. Which can lead to some extra 0.1 seconds of confusion when trying to quickly grasp the situation.

    But I think I quite like the fact that everything is receiving an update.
     
  6. Rui

    Rui

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    @Sieben great work you've put together here! Very constructive! I love the remark on peasants' use of swords versus axes =P. I hope Blizzard lends their eyes on this.
     
  7. tlstkwjr

    tlstkwjr

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    If Blizzard really sticks to current style, they must complete the following conditions:

    1. More Sophisticated and dynamic animating than now. like the Total War series. While old modeling have simple graphics and great visibility but new modeling is hard to know what they are doing with simple animations in such complex design.
    2. Number of animations must increase. like the Total War series. It seems ridiculous that the realistic characters repeat only two attack animations as before.
    3. If they want to make it realistic, consistency must be maintained in game. like the Total War series. Realize size blance of buildings and units. and units and heroes too.

    Yes. This is a nonsense and impossible. because they are trying impossible, like realistic warcraft3. new graphics can look great in trailers or short gameplay. But that's all.
    this new graphics are not for warcraft, It is Total War like.


    Not too late now. Store the current unit models for cinematic use and start full rework.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  8. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Yeah, units and heroes should look like normal people, their armour, weapons and gear too. They should stay away from JRPG-esque aesthetics and leave it Warcraft. The second game from the RTS series was best on this.
    Since they retcon the story, I have no hopes of the original voices being there anymore, at least not on all/most characters. The same with music for some reason, they had to remake it too...
    Many unit and hero looks were changed. Jaina has plating on the chest now and other stuff like that. Technically speaking such an armour would not ensure good protection. On the contrary because it's too curved.
    Hopefully they won't add wings to Kil'jaeden and exaggerated weirdness like that.

    But whatever, it's their game and no one is forced to buy it. I like the current Warcraft. There are stable versions for it still.
     
  9. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    @Archian now that's more like it!



    So, guys, you can really make this game awesome thus having most fans happy.

    1. In terms of aesthetics, just have the Warcraft III base models and make them look nifty like you did but don't change them to look like the WoW/HotS characters because Warcraft III's timeline is before WoW and people looked different and wore other garments back then. Consider what @Sieben wrote as much as you can. Their faces and character should coincide with the original game's as much as possible.

    2. I'm glad you want to connect Warcraft III to WoW but don't change the RTS' story, only add to it so it would make sense as WoW's prequel.

    3. Stress your voice actors to have the tone of the RTS characters as much as they can. Don't cast other actors than in the RTS or WoW. That's not ideal.

    4. The original music is quite fine. It's not midi, 16bit or old sounding. I think it should not be remade. On the contrary, you could add new stuff alongside it.

    5. If you're going to recreate the campaign maps please make them more fun. Evaluate them properly. See what gives and what doesn't. Remove stressing or boring factors, leave the fun part and also enhance with your long time experience so players would be amazed by the old+new content therein.

    6.
    Please consider the official custom campaign Exodus of the Horde too! Also, hopefully the Custom Campaign option accessed through the menu will stay in Reforged.

    7. Implement as much new/advanced stuff you can for Reforged's custom/modding scene, like better (unit) pathing, more than 12 units for selection so on and so forth but what you can of these add to the classic game as well through patching.

    8.
    Enhance the classic engine if possible with better shadows and lightening. If not possible or if it would make for a lousy implementation due to its age, then have Reforged be welcoming to old original and custom/community made resources (models etc.).

    9. In what classic maps are concerned. Say, you'd want to play them on Reforged but there would be issues with custom imported stuff. Maybe have some sort of analyzer to detect the issues and eliminate them so the map can be played on Reforged. Say, some imported models won't show up or would break the game. If possible have the game replace them with original game ones so the map could be played.

    10. Do not bury the fans in microtransactions, please. It's better to offer tools for the community to play with and create content.

    Most of all, don't hurry up! Take your time to deliver the best of the best.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  10. SadisticLeprechaun

    SadisticLeprechaun

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    Damn the hardcore players got some demands! Love it. I for one will be happy with any graphics improvements because I play War3 -in spite- of the graphics. Amazing game, amazing gameplay, but... the models are just . . . old as hell. Terrible to look at, some I can't even see what they hell they are lol
     
  11. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Use your imagination. It's like reading a book. Remember the old games? (if you have any memories of any of them, that is)
     
  12. Jaykan

    Jaykan

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    The possibility to change the zoom-Level in the settings would be pretty useful - at least a bit to have a bigger field of view. Otherwise in bigger battles you can't see everything that is going on or when you try to control bigger armies you often don't see all of your units at once.
     
  13. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    Just keep up this new style you made but please be loyal and don't change original concepts, make other 'retcons' as skins that we can choose, buildings' style and doodads' style are awesome! Units are great too but ghoul for example, it is better to use the old concept it was alot more unique
    And maybe you can make textures abit more like WoW but I'm fine with current choice.
     
  14. Kacpa2

    Kacpa2

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    I still advocate for artstyle to be more inline with originals, or at very least animations to be exacly alike originals but with improvements - which can be done since we seen overhauled 100% faithful animations in Warcraft3HDassets for Starcraft 2 with heroes and demons. It has animated faces and hands, why not atleast attempt this for new models. And partially tone down on realistic texturing to make it resemble original's and wow's ingame style? Animations are most important, same with sounds these shouldnt be replaced but improved if nessesary which as i said was already done in 2015, please consider this. I was outspoken...even aggressively, because i care for this game so much..... For sake of Wc3's legacy try to make it feel like original visual and soundwise with animations and spell effects as close to original as possible. There were several reason to why WC3 had cartoony artstyle one most important was unit recognition and how it would allow game to endure and look still fine, since obviously early 3d that tried to be realistic, especially with poorly done reflections aged terribly, case and point Warcraft 2 and Starcraft 1 cinematics which were alike graphics from games few years later in the period of 2000-2001.

    Team Fortress 2 has this artstyle for similar reasons and there are commentaries by Valve on how important it is for unit recognition with sillouttes and defined characteristing movements(animations). Grubby mentioned it during his playthrough and later interview with out of your developers. So please consider to remake the animations to be like originals but with improvements. 20 frames dont matter as limitation since animations could be linerized, pretty much creating infinite amout of frames and that's how it works ingame for most part. You dont need to make it realistic forcefully, it makes it look silly aswell since of the speed up animations that try to fit in the timing frame. So please remake the animations from originals like it was done in 2015 Sc2 Wc3hd assets, it will do only good for the game in several ways.
     
  15. Tauer

    Tauer

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    Just want to drop in and say that the weapons are not really oversized compared to vanilla. What makes them seem that way is the fact that the actual models now have more "realistic" proportions. This is especially noticeable when you look at the Arthas model:

    [​IMG]

    As you can see the hammer is not bigger than vanilla, but his head is smaller. This makes the hammer seem larger in comparison. Same goes for the size difference between the heroes and units really. Look at this picture. Arthas is just as much taller in vanilla as he is in Reforged. Again I think the "realism" of the new art style just makes this a bit more apparent. Whether or not you like this is a matter of preference I guess. Personally, I think hits the right balance between realism and stylized WC3-ism.

    I'd also like to point out that you will have the option to switch between the old and the new art style at will. That means that if you don't like this art direction you can always switch to the old one, and still enjoy the other benefits that Reforged will offer. Honestly, a lot of this criticism seems a bit like nitpicking to me. I think any changes to the art style will always be met with some degree of animosity from the fans who grew up with this game. I think it's impossible to please everyone when it comes to as sensitive a subject like this. So really, I think Blizzard made the best choice in giving players the option to play with the old art style, while also remaking the models in HD to appeal to a wider audience and people like me who drools over art like this :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  16. Sieben

    Sieben

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    The original game already has oversized weapons indeed (and it is already a bit too much, but it's just my opinion), but since Arthas' proportions have changed (head mostly, but also taller body, thiner legs), while the size of the hammer remains the same, it emphasizes the contrast between the hammer and the rest of the model. Also, Arthas' body has more (semi-)realistic proportions (apart from a few details), so now it looks really odd to see him heave such a massive hammer. But of course, you are totally right to point out that it is a matter of taste :)
    We could also compare with paladins' hammers from Warcraft 2! :p
    Now, for the heroes' size, it's the same idea: it was already the case in vanilla WC3, but I think it was too emphasized in Reforged. It was the impression I got when watching the videos anyway. I may think differently if I could play the game and compare models more easily.

    Of course, I'm aware of that, but I also think perfection is in the details. That's what would make all the difference, to me at least! Besides, I tried to be as specific as possible and to justify my opinions, in order to generate a constructive debate, but of course not everyone has to concur with me :)
     
  17. EredarArbeiterYU

    EredarArbeiterYU

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    Yeah, Arthas is a bit wacky-looking, gigantic shoulderpads and hammer, also his hair looks too much like a girl. :p It should have a less perfect flow... :p
    If I had to pick which one of those are most out of place, I'd say the humongous shoulderpads (reducing the size of those would make his head not look tiny lol).
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  18. xISLx

    xISLx

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    There is one thing that bothers me now...
    They said that all of the heroes are going to have male and female versions of their models

    ...What about Crypt Lord?
    Something like this?
     
  19. Darklycan51

    Darklycan51

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    The only weapon which felt "oversized" was tauren's totem, but maybe it was the coloring.
     
  20. JimmyJoJameson

    JimmyJoJameson

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    My biggest gripe is still that units are too rich in detail, which isn't in line with the simpler, easier to read classic style. It makes little sense for a humble footman to look like a noble hero in an armor that can only be described as "outlandish" for a rank-and-file troop. Pictured are all the known iterations of footman, from the human campaign screen, the in game footman, World of Warcraft and Reforged, and I dare anyone to say the Reforged one doesn't look out of place. I think something akin to the first one (with far less gold trimming) would be a nice compromise.

    [​IMG]

    The proportions and stance are another thing, with Reforged opting for a weird kind of realism that has never had a place in Warcraft. I can only guess at the motivations, since it doesn't quite match World of Warcraft either (and we know they're trying to tie Reforged with it). Warcraft has always had wide, heroic stances and exaggerated proportions, both best showcased on the first two pictures; big head, hands and feet all jump out, but are very much in line with the aesthetic we're used to.

    The flat, lifeless textures, shadows and lighting are my third (and final) major gripe, but we can all see they need work and I'm convinced Blizzard does too, so I'm not overly concerned about them. But I think if there's anything that's critically important to get right, it's the units, and I'm hoping (probably against hope) that the designs aren't set in stone yet. Otherwise I'm gonna have to finally start to learn how to model. :grin: