Approved
- Joined
- May 21, 2013
- Messages
- 1,637
Hello, there, welcome to the Hiveworkshop!!!. Now that map is very very awsome, !!
Melee Mapping Contest #2 - Poll
You could have participated here, hope you stay here for the 3rd contest that will be contested in the.... in the future (maybe december-january) but there is nothing oficial, the 2nd didn´t end yet, but there is no 2 without a 3 (a movie title).
so the map, I remember Un-goro region in wow, the terraining is awsome.
there are 2 tutorials that you should read that talks about balance for competitive melee play:
Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps
Competitive Melee Map
the rest is experience, by watching competitive plays on youtube, so there you learn about how players camp creeps. Also test the creeps helps a lot.
1) NE use the Acient of War to take orange creep early with an hero and 1 or 2 archers.
2) Undead use the rod of necromancy to raise skeletons and creep orange level 12-13
3) Humans use militia to hit a goldmine and expand fast, to counter the destroyer of the undeads in tier 2.
4) orcs have the blademaster and hit specific units to get items and rund, wind walk, plus damage, crit hit. Orcs are weak to poison, because they don´t heal themself, or waste money at shop for healing potions (wich delays your competitive play)
okay now to the map review:
good things of the map:
1) Awsome terraining and theme.
2) Very Good neutral position
3) Walking distances are good
4) Simetry, perfect
5) I like the strategic use of cliff
6) Loot is good
7) the multiple paths are very complex, like 5-7 paths from one base to the other. Thats great.
8) No gaps between trees, great!!! keep that way.
9) map has critters, important for the Undead creep, keep that way
10) main bases and expandings have good path options.
11) I do love the areas with rocks and trees that can be taken down and open a path, thats really is a profesional thing, I never did that or think to do that.
Note: you have an excellent level with the editor, so the things that I am going to point are with a hard level.
things that could be improved:
1) Creep in the center, a level 28 creep is almost suicide in 1vs1, nobody will risk go for it and be attack from behind. That dragon level 10 is a hell to take down because is inmune to magic, splash damage and devour. You don´t want to camp that.
There are 2 types of creeps : sleep creeps and no-sleep: the sleep ones are used in fountains and shops. so they can be visited at nigth, the non-sleep creeps are used for goldmines, so people won´t build towers to camp fast.
Sugestions:
1-So I sugest for the fountain sleep creeps, because if not, that fountain won´t be used till the camp is cleared in late-game.
2- I sugest creep camp level 22-23
Fountains are usually placed in the corners, wich are no-used areas. So players won´t domain the map in the fountain in the middle, but secret valleys had 2 fountains pretty much near the middle. Fountains are a complex thing for balance
2) the rest of the creeps, there are poison creeps, slow creeps and AOE (area of effect creeps) in your map. I see you tend to fit the camps in a theme, all lizards, all hydras, all spiders. While that work with some creeps, it doesn´t with other types.
- creeps can be melee, ranged and caster, I think is good to have a mix of them, like 2 melee and 2 ranged, or 3 melee and 1 healer.
there is when selecting the creeps has a lot of fun, because the type and skills will define if is nice to creep it.
to much ranged is weak for melee, and to much melee can be vulnerable to air. Mix I think makes is interesting, wc3 is like wow, you have the tank, the healer and damage in creeps. Here you can explore and play with the combination:
My sugestions, mind the skills, some skills can be hard,
a) like poison and slow together, in your hidra - sludge camp mix.
even the level 1 have slow, you don´t want to creep that till tier 2.
b) all lizzards, they have splash damage / AOE, so it damage many units, and for militia creep, is kinda hard. When I put Lizzards, I put 1 or 2, 4 lizzards maybe is to much and redundant, since melee is missing. The 2 lizzards in the green camp is ok.
c) the fire-revenant, golems, to much melee and level 27 is hard,
d) creeps with mana burn is considered an instant veto in competitive. Probably because of this: if you go for that creep your hero is mana burned, I appear behind as NE with my demon hunter, I mana burn you, your hero is done for, no mana no, skills, that goes for the thunder lizzards level 7 violet.
e) I think the creep camp of the goblin market is to weak, level 7, I always put an orange creep for the market. Also melee units are missing
f) I would add 1 green more, and an orange more creeps, for experience. the red ones are always for late game.
3) Loot, it can be better, I sugest you to see mafe maps, Mr.Henci maps, or if you want to see my maps, I sugest you to see the last one I did for the melee contest. The idea always is to do it or try to do it manually, considering, charged, permanent and power ups.
Filmting tutorial explains how the loot should be.
By self experience, In the ROC map Terenas stand, I looted 2 times the cloak of shadows well, thats not good, the idea is to avoid repetitions.
4) wood, I would add more, if you can, you have 1351 trees, I like to have 3000, since you have the saw-goblin machine, that harvest fast, also players use wood for spells NE, heal NE, siege destroy the NE scouts, and open paths.
5) chokepoints: paths always must be wide, bottlenecks are forbidden in competitive melee, if your hero is trapped between armies is hard to manuver/ re-position, the repositions are very important in plays. There are some isolated trees that reduce manuver, I think 8-9 pixels in editor, is a guide to me for wide paths.
6) For competitive melee play, 1 Tavern goes in the middle unguarded (I have many maps with many taverns, I like it), but those who want to reach Blizzard or me in the last melee contest, the tavern in the middle, so it can be reached from any part of the map and resurrect the hero plus contested. I think in your map taverns are very well placed, but the safe option is the tavern in the middle. Also players dont put creeps in the middle because of agrro, so tavern.
7) : for competitive melee reasons: merc camps, I sugest of lordaeron summer as safe option, balance the orcs, so they can buy a healer troll and heal them self early. Also merc camps should be so players can have more fun from those buildings. mafe did a review of the merc camps, I sugest you to read it is quite cool.
8) the expanding golmines have aggro: if I am in the goblin lab and I want to go to the goblin market , using the goldmine path I will have agrro, in competitive melee play aggro is a bug (go from A to B and be attacked by creeps with no intention fo attack but to travel).
I sugest to put the goldmines very near the clif and test the aggro.
Overall
"I'm not very experienced in map-making and especially not melee yet, so any advice or complaints about terrain, creep camps, and how to make the map more balanced and competitive are welcome
"
I hardly do this kind of reviews (with this hard level), I don´t like to drown people with competitive melee theory, but since you stated that you wanted feedback for balance and competitive, I put everything, that is like a tutorial. Hope you like reading.
I have to say, I envy this map, it has more quality than many of mine, already approved.
Again the review is in a hard level. Is hard to see a first map with this level.
so
rating 5/5
I hope a map of yours can reach ladder some day (not me, I just mapped as terrainer, learned competitive play much later).
Melee Mapping Contest #2 - Poll
You could have participated here, hope you stay here for the 3rd contest that will be contested in the.... in the future (maybe december-january) but there is nothing oficial, the 2nd didn´t end yet, but there is no 2 without a 3 (a movie title).
so the map, I remember Un-goro region in wow, the terraining is awsome.
there are 2 tutorials that you should read that talks about balance for competitive melee play:
Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps
Competitive Melee Map
the rest is experience, by watching competitive plays on youtube, so there you learn about how players camp creeps. Also test the creeps helps a lot.
1) NE use the Acient of War to take orange creep early with an hero and 1 or 2 archers.
2) Undead use the rod of necromancy to raise skeletons and creep orange level 12-13
3) Humans use militia to hit a goldmine and expand fast, to counter the destroyer of the undeads in tier 2.
4) orcs have the blademaster and hit specific units to get items and rund, wind walk, plus damage, crit hit. Orcs are weak to poison, because they don´t heal themself, or waste money at shop for healing potions (wich delays your competitive play)
okay now to the map review:
good things of the map:
1) Awsome terraining and theme.
2) Very Good neutral position
3) Walking distances are good
4) Simetry, perfect
5) I like the strategic use of cliff
6) Loot is good
7) the multiple paths are very complex, like 5-7 paths from one base to the other. Thats great.
8) No gaps between trees, great!!! keep that way.
9) map has critters, important for the Undead creep, keep that way
10) main bases and expandings have good path options.
11) I do love the areas with rocks and trees that can be taken down and open a path, thats really is a profesional thing, I never did that or think to do that.
Note: you have an excellent level with the editor, so the things that I am going to point are with a hard level.
things that could be improved:
1) Creep in the center, a level 28 creep is almost suicide in 1vs1, nobody will risk go for it and be attack from behind. That dragon level 10 is a hell to take down because is inmune to magic, splash damage and devour. You don´t want to camp that.
There are 2 types of creeps : sleep creeps and no-sleep: the sleep ones are used in fountains and shops. so they can be visited at nigth, the non-sleep creeps are used for goldmines, so people won´t build towers to camp fast.
Sugestions:
1-So I sugest for the fountain sleep creeps, because if not, that fountain won´t be used till the camp is cleared in late-game.
2- I sugest creep camp level 22-23
Fountains are usually placed in the corners, wich are no-used areas. So players won´t domain the map in the fountain in the middle, but secret valleys had 2 fountains pretty much near the middle. Fountains are a complex thing for balance
2) the rest of the creeps, there are poison creeps, slow creeps and AOE (area of effect creeps) in your map. I see you tend to fit the camps in a theme, all lizards, all hydras, all spiders. While that work with some creeps, it doesn´t with other types.
- creeps can be melee, ranged and caster, I think is good to have a mix of them, like 2 melee and 2 ranged, or 3 melee and 1 healer.
there is when selecting the creeps has a lot of fun, because the type and skills will define if is nice to creep it.
to much ranged is weak for melee, and to much melee can be vulnerable to air. Mix I think makes is interesting, wc3 is like wow, you have the tank, the healer and damage in creeps. Here you can explore and play with the combination:
My sugestions, mind the skills, some skills can be hard,
a) like poison and slow together, in your hidra - sludge camp mix.
even the level 1 have slow, you don´t want to creep that till tier 2.
b) all lizzards, they have splash damage / AOE, so it damage many units, and for militia creep, is kinda hard. When I put Lizzards, I put 1 or 2, 4 lizzards maybe is to much and redundant, since melee is missing. The 2 lizzards in the green camp is ok.
c) the fire-revenant, golems, to much melee and level 27 is hard,
d) creeps with mana burn is considered an instant veto in competitive. Probably because of this: if you go for that creep your hero is mana burned, I appear behind as NE with my demon hunter, I mana burn you, your hero is done for, no mana no, skills, that goes for the thunder lizzards level 7 violet.
e) I think the creep camp of the goblin market is to weak, level 7, I always put an orange creep for the market. Also melee units are missing
f) I would add 1 green more, and an orange more creeps, for experience. the red ones are always for late game.
3) Loot, it can be better, I sugest you to see mafe maps, Mr.Henci maps, or if you want to see my maps, I sugest you to see the last one I did for the melee contest. The idea always is to do it or try to do it manually, considering, charged, permanent and power ups.
Filmting tutorial explains how the loot should be.
By self experience, In the ROC map Terenas stand, I looted 2 times the cloak of shadows well, thats not good, the idea is to avoid repetitions.
4) wood, I would add more, if you can, you have 1351 trees, I like to have 3000, since you have the saw-goblin machine, that harvest fast, also players use wood for spells NE, heal NE, siege destroy the NE scouts, and open paths.
5) chokepoints: paths always must be wide, bottlenecks are forbidden in competitive melee, if your hero is trapped between armies is hard to manuver/ re-position, the repositions are very important in plays. There are some isolated trees that reduce manuver, I think 8-9 pixels in editor, is a guide to me for wide paths.
6) For competitive melee play, 1 Tavern goes in the middle unguarded (I have many maps with many taverns, I like it), but those who want to reach Blizzard or me in the last melee contest, the tavern in the middle, so it can be reached from any part of the map and resurrect the hero plus contested. I think in your map taverns are very well placed, but the safe option is the tavern in the middle. Also players dont put creeps in the middle because of agrro, so tavern.
7) : for competitive melee reasons: merc camps, I sugest of lordaeron summer as safe option, balance the orcs, so they can buy a healer troll and heal them self early. Also merc camps should be so players can have more fun from those buildings. mafe did a review of the merc camps, I sugest you to read it is quite cool.
8) the expanding golmines have aggro: if I am in the goblin lab and I want to go to the goblin market , using the goldmine path I will have agrro, in competitive melee play aggro is a bug (go from A to B and be attacked by creeps with no intention fo attack but to travel).
I sugest to put the goldmines very near the clif and test the aggro.
Overall
"I'm not very experienced in map-making and especially not melee yet, so any advice or complaints about terrain, creep camps, and how to make the map more balanced and competitive are welcome
"I hardly do this kind of reviews (with this hard level), I don´t like to drown people with competitive melee theory, but since you stated that you wanted feedback for balance and competitive, I put everything, that is like a tutorial. Hope you like reading.
I have to say, I envy this map, it has more quality than many of mine, already approved.
Again the review is in a hard level. Is hard to see a first map with this level.
so
rating 5/5
I hope a map of yours can reach ladder some day (not me, I just mapped as terrainer, learned competitive play much later).
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