I apologize for the error of writing Sankt as Sankh. Yes, the word origin is German, since the word is taken from Sankt Altar ability.

"
CONS

• Lower base health
• Low base armor"

---> Swordman literally has 500 health in the gameplay video

raypack said:

"
CONS

• Lower base health
• Low base armor"

---> Swordman literally has 500 health in the gameplay video

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Swordsmen and Spirit Plasms are exceptions, but I can make amendments if that disturbs so much

Added to my review list, ah shit, here we go again.

FlameofChange said:

Added to my review list, ah shit, here we go again.

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To be fair, this is in lower grade than every altered melee previously I have done in my opinion, so there's no need to force yourself

Mostly because I am restricting myself too much.

EDIT:

Just deleting the Emerald Gardens, so please move along~

I understand the concept of the faction's simplicity, but one thing that feels bad are the rather high costs for some units and upgrades that do not feel worth it. The main culprit being the barracks upgrades. Either the costs should be lowered or the faction should have some way to make up for its economy (i.e making the basic lumber harvest upgrade also increase gold gathered by a small amount).

For example; The Defense upgrade although useful, it is rather expensive for a tier 1 unit upgrade, compared to the original defense upgrade which costs quite less. The Precision upgrade also feels very bad, as the Archers already have absurd range and should not require more of it (as 50 range difference between basic artillery will not make a difference), so really you're only paying 150 gold and 240 lumber for +3 damage, which...is very bad. At least compared to the Night Elf Marksmanship upgrade which costs only 100 gold and 175 lumber.

Crusaders also should maybe cost less food? Like reduced to 3? Or at least grant them their base knight costs, as they should not be more expensive than knights when they are worse than base knights, especially when they have overall worse stats than Knights except damage output.

Rennathrim said:

I understand the concept of the faction's simplicity, but one thing that feels bad are the rather high costs for some units and upgrades that do not feel worth it. The main culprit being the barracks upgrades. Either the costs should be lowered or the faction should have some way to make up for its economy (i.e making the basic lumber harvest upgrade also increase gold gathered by a small amount).

For example; The Defense upgrade although useful, it is rather expensive for a tier 1 unit upgrade, compared to the original defense upgrade which costs quite less. The Precision upgrade also feels very bad, as the Archers already have absurd range and should not require more of it (as 50 range difference between basic artillery will not make a difference), so really you're only paying 150 gold and 240 lumber for +3 damage, which...is very bad. At least compared to the Night Elf Marksmanship upgrade which costs only 100 gold and 175 lumber.

Crusaders also should maybe cost less food? Like reduced to 3? Or at least grant them their base knight costs, as they should not be more expensive than knights when they are worse than base knights, especially when they have overall worse stats than Knights except damage output.

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This is interesting, which is contrast to another feedback that necessity for toning down the numbers for balance of other stuff

Anyway, I will take a look to rebalance the numbers for these upgrades and units. A note is that Defend also provides additional health (or was it armor?) which raises it's base cost.

I will implement this number rebalancing along with other recommendations I have received before.

Daffa said:

This is interesting, which is contrast to another feedback that necessity for toning down the numbers for balance of other stuff

Anyway, I will take a look to rebalance the numbers for these upgrades and units. A note is that Defend also provides additional health (or was it armor?) which raises it's base cost.

I will implement this number rebalancing along with other recommendations I have received before.

Click to expand...

The Defense upgrade gave +2 armor, but for a t1 melee unit upgrade where you’re using a lot of resources in the early game to get a starting force going, you might not have the capability to spend so many resources unless you rush an expansion. I already checked the specific upgrade itself and its a good price for what is essentially an armor upgrade and a defend upgrade (i believe its actually cheaper compared to the combination of the two together).

Rennathrim said:

The Defense upgrade gave +2 armor, but for a t1 melee unit upgrade where you’re using a lot of resources in the early game to get a starting force going, you might not have the capability to spend so many resources unless you rush an expansion. I already checked the specific upgrade itself and its a good price for what is essentially an armor upgrade and a defend upgrade (i believe its actually cheaper compared to the combination of the two together).

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I'll make some adjustment in regards to pricing of T1 units and this upgrade then. Hope it resolves the issue.

Pretty much a Human/High Elf mild edit.

Simple.

If you're not satisfied with the review and wish another opinion, contact the other reviewers or use the staff contact:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/staff-contact.692/

VERSION 1.2 HAS BEEN RELEASED!

Just tested your latest version.
Have you managed to beat normal AI without cheats and cheeses ? Because I really don't with your overpriced units dropping like flies.
No early healing (beside scrolls), priest heal is bellow average and even with quite broken upgrades I get roflstomped by tier 2 enemies.
I can see some hope with phoenixes however it implies tech rushing is the only viable option. So you wait 15mn just to be bullied by regular and much more versatile enemies.
Eco upgrade is also very broken. While a 5-10% gold gather rate is acceptable as an exceptional faction quirk, you get +20% twice which is absolutely outrageous.
I don't mind having a faction with glass cannons, but due to how other factions work your units get eaten by AoE spells and bad positioning. On top of that you have unworkable healing and that breaks the fun. In other words your units cannot unleash their potential as they die after yeeting only few hits and spells.

All of that could be quite easily fixed by increasing unit HP by around 30% and retaining their current price, while giving some kind of early healing. Lowering price could also fix the problem from the other side but that doesn't make your units more effective (you'll just train and feed more XP toward enemy heroes).
Stronger casters with 3 food is not a bad idea on paper, but they are so damn frail even with extensive baby sitting.
Late game full compo is also too hard to handle.
I might do my own tweaks and edits to prove my point (or fail to) and share it to you in private.

I feel that the gold rush can be an advantage that is utilized for this faction given the higher than average loss rate. It allows for compensating the losses faster.

Yeah, firepower is very centralized on getting late game gimmicks like Gritz Phoenixes for head-on combat against enemies, while using supportive units like Priests (Mend), Enchantress (Lock + Invisibility, and Dragonhawk Riders (Shackles is a dangerous disable here, even heroes hate it). There's a superior anti-air in the form of Spirit Plasm (snipe those air with Force Reveal, you have 1150 range with it), and Flying Ballista is the annoying air raider everyone hates seeing on their doorstep (5-6 can be used for sneak deletion).

The way I think of the faction is how elves play their fights. Elves do not engage directly unless must to and they try to put enemy into disadvantage using terrain, pronged attacks, ambush, and pincers. As such, this faction tries to capitalize on such dirty and underhanded tactics (Sankt Empire Archer has very high range for a tier 1, for example). Most upgrades are aimed at increasing damage or speed advantage (Synergy comes to mind on this one)

I will consider increasing overall HP of the faction slightly to compensate, especially for early phases of the game. For healing, I'll try to think of something. It is sort of hard to make it distinct from Human without changing a single unit training composition, requirement, no changing ability on the units and heroes and no triggering allowed

Daffa said:

I feel that the gold rush can be an advantage that is utilized for this faction given the higher than average loss rate. It allows for compensating the losses faster.

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There's two crucial gamedesign errors here.
1) Warcraft 3 is heavily based on heroes, so that means enemy heroes will get XP much much faster. It is a game where you CANNOT allow yourself to lose units, even less to feed enemy heroes.
2) Ally can trade resources, which makes it a very strong sling.

Daffa said:

Yeah, firepower is very centralized on getting late game gimmicks like Gritz Phoenixes for head-on combat against enemies, while using supportive units like Priests (Mend), Enchantress (Lock + Invisibility, and Dragonhawk Riders (Shackles is a dangerous disable here, even heroes hate it). There's a superior anti-air in the form of Spirit Plasm (snipe those air with Force Reveal, you have 1150 range with it), and Flying Ballista is the annoying air raider everyone hates seeing on their doorstep (5-6 can be used for sneak deletion).

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Other factions have (and need) potent anti-air, so your argument is not very good. You are laser focused on a secondary quirk while the rest of the rooster cannot handle proper fights. Your Sankt empire is too easy to rush. Even with all upgrades the damage may be good on paper but your offensive crumbles instantly when the first enemy AoE spells are cast.

Daffa said:

The way I think of the faction is how elves play their fights. Elves do not engage directly unless must to and they try to put enemy into disadvantage using terrain, pronged attacks, ambush, and pincers. As such, this faction tries to capitalize on such dirty and underhanded tactics (Sankt Empire Archer has very high range for a tier 1, for example). Most upgrades are aimed at increasing damage or speed advantage (Synergy comes to mind on this one)

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Eeeeeeeerm orcs already do this 10x better and easier to handle. Scroll of speed. Endurance aura. Bloodlust. Stasis ward. They are known to be the most scummy little bastards in the competitive scene.
High range doesn't have much effect on a unit so frail and with low DPS (especially in the early game... get some math done and you'll be surprise how useless the unit is in reality). The enemy won't sit tight waiting you to get high tech too.

Daffa said:

I will consider increasing overall HP of the faction slightly to compensate, especially for early phases of the game. For healing, I'll try to think of something. It is sort of hard to make it distinct from Human without changing a single unit training composition, requirement, no changing ability on the units and heroes and no triggering allowed

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That limits a lot of things, however I think you're perfectly able to cook something really good.
Allow yourself some triggering as long as the AI can use it.

I just tweaked some stuff and it got from bad to OK. However that still have that vanilla feel I don't like much. It also depends on what you expect for the map.

Version 1.3 (Retro) RELEASED!


The reason I added 'Retro' is because if one day I decided to break the design rule for this faction (no trigger, no ability edits etc), they will be separate from the Retro variant.

EDIT:
Just want to say I beat Computer Normal in both of my two test runs after partial change and complete change from this patch.

Mortimm said:

Doesn't really demonstrates what it does well.

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Please do explain what do you mean by this statement. I cannot work with this feedback, unlike @FlameofChange that provides an extensive feedback which allows for room of improvements.