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Warcraft III - Patch 1.28.1

Discussion in 'Patch Discussion' started by StoPCampinGn00b, Apr 27, 2017.

  1. Kam

    Kam

    Blizzard Associate Producer

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    It would be far better for everyone involved to view this as an open beta. That's what it means to nearly completely remake a game after 15 years. The order ID issue was caused by a change to a completely unrelated part of the engine, no one saw it. There will be more issues, that is unavoidable within reason. If Blizzard hired 100 people to comb over Wc3 every day then sure, but that's not realistic.

    You can curse Blizzard, or you can help. Your choice.
     
  2. Kaijyuu

    Kaijyuu

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    Now that you mention it, an actual open beta would be nice. Wasn't there a Westfall gateway back in the day for exactly that?
     
  3. Hotwer

    Hotwer

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    That surely is another way to view this, but that's not clear enough.

    At least what I'm expecting is that Blizzard be more clear in what they're trying to achieve. By now the only thing they did was: "We're going to update the games, yay, be happy as well.". Breaks things and say that "it's unnavoidable, we're sorry.". Everyone gets pissed and they know jackshit of what is Blizzard flight plan with Warcraft 3.
     
  4. Kam

    Kam

    Blizzard Associate Producer

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    We have covered this before. For a long term view you can see our original document which Blizzard is using: The Future of Warcraft

    Right now is the backend work phase to prepare the game for:

    -BNET 2.0 integration
    -Summer ladder/balance update. As far as balance I speak to Matt Morris often about it, there are going to be some significant changes.

    You're only going to frustrate yourself if you assume there won't be more issues.
     
  5. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    I am not though, I just chat with Brad when he enters chat early in the morning. (once)

    Judging from what former patchers as well as the current ones say, the Warcraft III source code is like hell. If there are guidelines how to make maintainable software, Warcraft III is more towards the opposite of those and hence why patches have such big problems. Make one change to GUI to add an actions for Regions and suddenly the editor crashes because you meant to say "rect" and not "region". Make one change to the options and suddenly Polish locale installs break because the change did not propagate properly. Software development ends up like this, as seen by many open source projects.

    Unlike the team that created Warcraft III, they are just here to maintain it so almost certainly considerably smaller. They do not have the man power to make huge changes in a few days.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  6. StoPCampinGn00b

    StoPCampinGn00b

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    Exactly.

    Not exactly ;)

    Adding onto Kam's post about The Future of Warcraft

    Job Openings - Blizzard Careers
    Their classic game job listings are always opening and closing. Meaning people are being hired. But that's not what I'm pointing out. Classic game job listings always have this quote up top:
    Followed by the objectives of each job positions. I saw tons of engineering jobs, but there were anti-cheat, graphic UI, and others as well before they seem to have been full filled.

    More recently, if you take a look of what's happening with Starcraft, it's not too hard to figure what could come after Starcraft Remastered. Why only remaster one classic game, when WC3 and D2, are worked on as well? Blizzard's classic team has publicly expressed that they are "Hyper-focused on the Remastered of Starcraft at the moment" which could imply that they have the ability to shift the remaster crew over to Warcraft 3. In the mean time, WC3 is being patched.


    "Again once we've got this thing (Starcraft Remastered) shipped and in the state that we want it to, we'll start looking at the other games (Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2), so nothing official to say today. So uh, nothing official to say today" *nervously smiles*

    Does this also imply that creating WC3:R depends on the amount of success of SC:R? It could, it could not. Anyway, I hope this answers your question to the best I could. Some parts could seem a bit vague, but I tried to be as informative as possible :]
     
  7. puffdragon

    puffdragon

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    @Kam Betas have separate clients. Nobody would complain if they didnt have to drop everything they are doing just to make their maps working again w/o any info of what it broke it at the first place cause there are no changelogs.

    Am all for change and improvement, but you need to understand that while ppl whine most often with no reason, this is not one of those times.

    They waste days after each frequent micro patch to find what caused the map to break down, if they find it (I still havent found why setunitvertexcolor is not working anymore when it is detected as a replay, used to work 10/10 at 1.27) and when they do find it waste days to fix stuff that were working fine.
     
  8. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    This is what happens when you inherit a large program.
     
  9. puffdragon

    puffdragon

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    I don't see how that could prevent someone to document the changes he made to say the least
     
  10. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    You are paid to make changes, not paid to make a list of all changes you made.

    Most are internal so should be invisible to the user. The bugs we got were unintentional results of these internal changes.
     
  11. puffdragon

    puffdragon

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    ... ok
     
  12. Kam

    Kam

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    At this point there's isn't much need for a change log as nearly all of the work is engine related. Right now the Classic division is mostly focused on SC with a few people dedicated to Wc3.

    I wish things were moving faster, that there was more documentation, and more "road map". Wc3 was an absolute mess, with little to no internal code documentation. Perhaps you can imagine inheriting a 15 year old game with no documentation and then be tasked to make it work with BNET 2.0 and Windows 10. Brad is in our Discord so I see he is working at least 12 hours a day on this, Sundays too. There is obviously a lot of work to be done.

    I'll remind everyone that no one has done this before, that I know of at least. I am willing to give them the benefit and continue to do what I am able to.

    What can you do?

    -When you encounter a problem document it to the fullest extent you can.
    -Re-create the issue to verify how it occurs.
    -Submit the report to myself, or Purge.
    -We will make sure it gets to the correct person.

    An example of this process:
    Some of you may have seen the latest match with Fly100% and WFZ:

    It highlights a lot of issues with Orc racial balance right now. I forwarded that link on and am in the process of gathering community feedback on Orc balance and discussing it with the person responsible for the upcoming summer balance patch. This is the kind of connection we as a community have. Don't squander it.
     
  13. Dat-C3

    Dat-C3

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    It was already working with windows 10 before the problem patches.
     
  14. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    I have oodles of patience for the process, and am not so much concerned about a "road map" (I mean, it'd be nice, but the following is more important (and anyway, if you guys are to believed, the 'road map' consists in large measure of the document in the linked "Future of Warcraft" thread)).

    But I guess I disagree that there "isn't much need", especially when the stated reason is "all of the work is engine-related". As has been seen in recent weeks/months, those kind of nitty-gritty base-level engine changes have had a terrific impact, and knowing what exactly was changed would've helped us overcome/work-around it, methinks.

    I suppose it begs the question: "is there a reason not to provide it?" Would it reveal trade secrets or something? And even this begs it's own assumption: "do they have it?" Are they keeping track, day to day, of the changes that are made? Like, the literal changes to the code, as well as the stated objectives?

    IF there exists such a list (and it's hard to imagine a group of programmers on a project of this scale not keeping track somehow), and IF it doesn't involve some kind of negative repercussions (and "too complicated" doesn't count; that's what we're all about here)... Then why not throw us a bone (I ask of them, not so much you)?

    ...

    I suppose the hardest part is the silence. We may have felt 'ignored' when it came to this or that, but many times/10 we have (eventually) received a response of some kind. "Game's not patching" -- "try X". "Can't find my files!" -- "Oh we moved those, check here". "Order IDs are messed up!!" -- "Sorry, mistake. Will fix in next patch".
    But when it comes to our request for more clear, straightforward information about what was changed, something which (ostensibly, see above) should be handy... Nothing?
     
  15. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    No it was not. D3D8 performance was rock bottom with unstable and inconsistent frame rates. OpenGL performance was fine but OpenGL itself is bugged with incorrect UV wraps for text.

    People often forget what was changed. Look at most open source projects. Only way to find what was changed is to browse through the 1,000+ commits since last release.
     
  16. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    If we're talking about creating a more comprehensive patch list post hoc, then I'm with you. Heck, I can barely remember what I had for dinner yesterday.

    But I'm talking more about one made as the issues are being worked on. Like, Mr. Programmer A is working on a certain problem, and when he solves it, writing "Fixed Problem A by changing Data Field X and migrating Data Handling to Control Structure K".

    Is that not something people do? Or that these guys are doing? You mentioned commits; if they are using some kind of distributed file control system like Github or whatever, then doesn't every commit have even a little comment about what it's doing?

    It'd be wonderful to have a fancy, well-written list, too... But I'm saying we'd settle for a straight copy/paste of a unformatted text log, a stream, a .txt from a Github comment trawl... Etc.

    Does such a thing exist? And if so,
    Can it be sent to us the modders (and if not, why not)?
     
  17. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    One should do that. Too bad in reality no one does. Hence why open source change logs miss most of the changes.

    Yes but then you are paying someone to look through commits to make the change logs. Change logs are not really considered deliverables and should only show what directly effects the user. Things like "reduced coupling in blp reader code" is meaningless to a user but will be in the commits. Also commit messages might not be suitable for public release such as "fixed joe's drunk mistake".
     
  18. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    And maybe that's the case. So let's hear that. "Hey, sorry guys, we simply don't have a more detailed change log".


    Well, I don't know about that (was hoping there was some automated process, or that it was just a part of standard job-day (not necessarily a separate employee gathering all this stuff up)).

    Meaningless to users, perhaps, but what about modders? Isn't that the point?

    And again, I'm waiting to hear that. "Hey guys, can't release the change log because it's too personal/discloses private info/would reveal trade secrets/etc". But nothing?
     
  19. Kaijyuu

    Kaijyuu

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    Blizz has to have dedicated employees for patch notes of WoW. It's no small task to gather and compile that information. They have version control history (hopefully... some past experience with WoW makes me doubt their version control competence), but that's too nitty gritty and bulky to just throw at players.

    I'd certainly like better patch notes but that's a non-trivial increase in workload.


    (side note: people are working on this overtime? That might explain some of the bugs; modern software engineering practices heavily discourage overtime since it has so little return (sometimes even negative) for a lot of investment)
     
  20. LordDz

    LordDz

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    Almost all game developers use crunch / overtime.