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Producer Question: Camera Height

Discussion in 'Patch & Reforged Discussion' started by Kam, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. Kam

    Kam

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  2. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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  3. Korialstrasz

    Korialstrasz

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    Great to see that the height is an important topic for you. I really do hope we can figure some way out, to make it awesome for all of us.
    I would also appreciate a poll, would be interesting to see what the majority thinks about this, and/or if I am part of the minority with my thoughts.

    Anyways, even though deepstrasz linked one of my opinions, here they are quoted for this topic.

     
  4. tulee

    tulee

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    I do not want to seem like the person who wants to keep something just because it is the one I am used to (even if the nee one is superior) but I would prefer keeping the camera in the way it has been all this time. Having a zoomed camera makes me feel like heroes are less important because they are smaller.
     
  5. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    To not step on anyone's toes, make it optional. A simple checkbox in the options.
    An even cooler idea would be to be able to change it with code.

    This means that you could force the 1.28 camera on competitive maps but custom maps could use the 1.29 camera if they want to
     
  6. millzy

    millzy

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    i my self did prefer the new height in 1.29 tho i believe it may change things for the people that play competitive ladder matches
     
  7. Kaijyuu

    Kaijyuu

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    I'm in the "set it in some sort of options menu" camp. I dunno about a checkbox, but inputting a bounded value (500-3000 or so) would be ideal.

    Hardcore ladder people would set whatever's ideal for them. The one downside I can think of is newbie traps; it'll likely be considered ideal to pan the camera out as far as possible, and newbies will follow this advice blindly, making it difficult for them to click on things and then would blame the game for their poor performance. This sort of thing is pretty much a universal cultural problem in any game out there, though perhaps less of a big deal for wc3, due to being an old game with few new players.
     
  8. A Void

    A Void

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    I know I'm in a minority here of those who prefer 1.28 camera and we both know how this is gonna end. I'd say to make an average of 1.28 camera height and 1.29 (new) camera height. Use that average and that would satisfy both sides.

    Say for example that old camera height was 400 and the new was 600.

    400 + 600 = 1000 / 2 = 500

    So average would be 500.
     
  9. PrinceOfThaWest

    PrinceOfThaWest

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    I'd also prefer camera height to be just like when 1.29 hit the PTR. For me personally its always better having more space and view of the situation.

    I can understand that for example Dota would struggle with things like this, but Warcraft as a RTS game, should have option like that available for it's players.
     
  10. Mechanical Man

    Mechanical Man

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    Depends what pros think of it.

    For custom maps, there should be some Set default camera setting in triggers, so those camera zoom keys won't default the camera the custom game isn't designed for.
     
  11. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    I second that.
     
  12. Sieben

    Sieben

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    If the toggle option is not satisfactory enough, this could be a good solution.

    If camera height in melee games really is an issue, even with a toggle option (we'd need to see what pros think, like @Mechanical Man said), a good solution would be to allow a toggle option in almost every games (custom maps, campaigns, melee vs AI...), but keep the height locked for competitive melee games only. In general terms, I think it's always better to give users the choice.
     
  13. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Heroes are usually the biggest units in the game anyway and they have glow too...

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just make the mouse scroll be the thing that moves it close and farther away and this way players would use/change/set it depending on the situation.
     
  14. Selaya

    Selaya

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    The problem with changing the camera right now is that it will very likely break a lot of maps.
    Even if it's toggleable I can imagine that a lot of people will forget to change it and then go complain WTF MAP BREAK???? CANT PLAY )))
    If any, the toggle should only affect maps that are classified as melee (rip spoofers), or otherwise have a flag set for it when created with >= 1.29, or anything like that.
     
  15. opium911

    opium911

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    I have attached a picture to show you what people actually see on a 4 X 3 resolution and on a 16 X 9 resolution from movies and you can apply this to videogames as well.

    The exact same scene on a 4 X 3 resolution will enable you to see more vertically than horizontally.
    The exact same scene on a 16 X 9 resolution will enable you to see more horizontally than vertically.

    This means that a specific moment in time, someone could be seeing stuff that the other person would not see.

    Scenario 1:
    Scenario 1.jpg


    In scenario number 1, in the top image where you see Gandalf from Lord of the Rings knocking on the door with his stick.

    You can clearly see that on the 16 X 9 resolution (Wide screen), we can see the following details that do not appear in the 4 X 3 resolution (Full screen):
    -A small bench on the left side of the screen
    -A tree on the left side of the screen
    -A lantern on the left side of the screen
    -A complete view of the tree on the right side of the screen

    You can clearly see that on the 4 X 3 resolution (Full screen), we can see the following details that do not appear in the 16 X 9 resolution (Wide screen):
    -Details of the upper side of the house on the top of the screen
    -A complete view of Gandalf's pointy hat on the top of the screen
    -The first step leading to the house at the bottom of the screen
    -A complete view of the grass at the bottom of the screen


    All of that to say that even though adding a "widescreen option" to the game was "up-to-technological-standards" for 2018, we still broke somehow the old mechanics of the game with that first major change ; meaning at some point in time during the games, some people will see stuff that other people are not seeing.

    Now you are adding another game breaking factor which is a "zoomed out" perspective of view (Camera height) which would also mean that some people might be seeing even more stuff that other people are not seeing.

    So with those 2 major changes, you have created (intentionally or unintentionally) a very big gap between what some people might be able to see on screen and what others might not be able to see.

    Those two major changes have a considerable psychological impact on the way you get surprised or the way you plan your attack and defenses.


    In my opinion, a widescreen option is really where you should have drawn the line before you brake the game mechanics even further by playing with the camera height.
    If it was for me, I wouldn't have even added a "widescreen option" and would have kept it the way it was for the past 15 years.
     
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Actually, a camera from up high would "fix" that "issue".
     
  17. chusrubi2

    chusrubi2

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    I've been only playing melee all these years (RoC in fact) and I see this question a little hmmm naive?

    You got a bunch of players asking to go 1.29 height and a bunch wanting the 1.28.

    Why don't you just make it customizable?

    There won't be "advantages" and everyone would be able to choose the preferred height.
     
  18. DarhKoopa

    DarhKoopa

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    When 1.29 PTR was released I was so happy about the zoomed out camera view.

    Many people argue that it was zoomed in for 15 years now, well but 15 years ago we played with less powerfull pcs on old CRT monitors with lower screen resolutions.

    Lets take a look at other games, AoE2 (released 1999) if you increase the resolution from 800x640 to e.g. 1024x768 the game is more zoomed out, anyway this wasn't a real problem for competitive gaming.

    Also the Warcraft 3 pros showed, that it is possible to make pro gaming with the zoomed out camera too.
    I fail to see why it makes it so much harder, you still can zoom in via mouse if needed.

    If we look at other Blizzard games, Starcraft (Remastered) and Starcraft 2, they are more like the zoomed out feature you introduced in 1.29 than what Warcraft 3 <= 1.28 provided.
    I think the zoomed out feature was a big improvement and was disappointed that you rolled it back. The new camera feelt fresh, more modern, was just fun to play parts of the campaign again, because finally I could see more than just a small area of the game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  19. pyf

    pyf

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    @A Void: ...or probably none of them.
     
  20. A Void

    A Void

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    What do you mean? Can you elaborate?