Melee Mapping Contest #4 - Poll

[mafe]

2 vs 2

Create a 2v2 melee map that excels in balance, terrain and creativity, while being suitable for Warcraft III Reforged.

• Each user can only vote once in the poll, but you can vote for up to 5 maps.
• Judges can't vote in the public poll.
• You cannot vote for yourself. If a voter has the same IP as the author then the vote will not be counted and it may result in the disqualification of the entry.
• You cannot create multiple accounts to vote for an entry in the poll. If a voter has been found to be using multiple accounts none of the voters votes will count in the final result.
• You cannot bribe users for votes. Contestants who break this rule will be disqualified and given negative reputation.
• You cannot invite friends to vote strictly for you in the poll.

• 1st place: 50 reputation points and €50 through paypal.
• 2nd place: 30 reputation points and €20 through paypal.
• 3rd place: 20 reputation points and €10 through paypal.
• Judge: 25 reputation points

The three winners will receive an award icon, representing the winning entry.

• Lawliet (Twitch , Liquipedia)
• @Hi2Chaco (Twitch , Liquipedia)
• @mafe

Balance:	Is the map balanced for both teams? Are the positions and distance between points of interest fair? Does the map allow the 4 races to be balanced? Consider balance when implementing the pathing, resources, creep camps, and item drops.	50/100
Terrain:	Is the map visually pleasing in mediums of terrain, doodad placement, and overall theme? Is the map repetitive? Is the aesthetic well designed but not overly obstructive?	35/100
Creativity & Uniqueness:	Does the map bring something new or creative to the table? This should primarily refer to gameplay, but terrain may also be included.	15/100
Bugs:	Scores may be brought down if there are bug-like issues such as faulty pathing, unusable resources, etc.

• 80% of the winner shall be determined by the contest's appointed judges.
• 20% of the winner shall be determined by the results of a public poll.

• The public poll will conclude on May 12th.

Participant(s)	WIP	Final entry
1. @Mr.Henci	WIP	Hillsbrad Creek
2. @DuckDuckGoose	WIP	Overgrown Center
3. @Keito	WIP	The Consortium
4. @JaleVeliki	WIP	Vile Reef
5. @Ragnaros17	WIP	Stairs of Destiny
6. @Meerel	WIP	King and Country
7. @mmtt	WIP	Forgotten Halls
8. @Khaldaiel	WIP	Veilswamp
9. @Rockstar356	WIP	Bandits City
10. @Twilight	WIP	The Time Gates
11. @Nudl9	WIP	Terrace Fields
12. @Blood Raven	WIP	Underground Oasis
13. @sentrywiz	WIP	Venture Co. Shipyards
14. @FranzVader_CZ	WIP	Westfall Adventure
15. @Arrr	WIP	Guardians

The contest thread can be found here: Melee Mapping Contest #4 - 2v2
A zip file with all entries can be downloaded below.

Big thanks to anyone helping to organize this contest, in particular @Naze , @Mr.Henci and @XanderD

 

[XanderD]

In the mapping thread for this contest I created a table with some numbers for the 2v2 maps already in use (on ladder and in the 2v2 Ugri Challenge earlier this year), so I made a table with the same information for the contest maps:

Spoiler

map name	tileset	longitudinal	latitudinal	size	green	orange	red	creeps	total creep levels	levels per camp	expansions	gold
Bandit's City	Dalaran	108	108	11664	12	8	2	86	246	11.182	4	108000
Forgotten Halls	Underground	148	120	17760	8	17	5	124	453	15.100	7	175000
Guardians	Ashenvale	118	118	13924	16	14	2	116	358	11.188	8	154000
Hillsbrad Creek	Lordaeron	128	128	16384	12	12	4	112	368	13.143	4	102000
King and Country	Village	112	112	12544	12	14	4	132	392	13.067	8	160000
Lordaeron Plaza	Cityscape	150	148	22200	8	22	2	142	414	12.938	6	135000
Overgrown Center	Cityscape	144	144	20736	8	26	4	146	554	14.579	4	100000
Stairs of Destiny	Black Citadel	144	116	16704	16	16	4	148	430	11.944	8	132000
Terrace Fields	Village	148	84	12432	5	17	4	110	369	14.192	4	112000
The Consortium	Outland	118	118	13924	8	12	0	76	226	11.300	4	104000
The Time Gates	Ashenvale	148	116	17168	10	22	4	165	482	13.389	4	120000
Underground Oasis	Sunken Ruins	116	152	17632	6	18	4	124	392	14.000	4	110000
Veilswamp	Felwood	130	131	17030	6	12	7	118	419	16.760	5	118000
Venture Co. Shipyards	Village	128	128	16384	38	22	14	316	858	11.595	10	240000
Vile Reef	Sunken Ruins	134	132	17688	14	16	4	138	444	13.059	8	140000
Westfall Adventure	Village Fall	124	124	15376	12	16	4	136	420	13.125	4	100000
A_V_E_R_A_G_E		131.125	123.688	16221.880	11.938	16.500	4.25	136.813	426.563	13.160	5.750	131875
Average of maps in use		119.294	119.412	14385.882	9.882	15.000	2.412	108.706	353.000	12.934	6.059	129000

 

[Meerel]

good luck to all competitors

Edit: are you going to post this thread on reddit to get more attention ?

 

[mafe]

good luck to all competitors

Edit: are you going to post this thread on reddit to get more attention ?

I will post it there if noone else is faster in the next hours.
@XanderD has already linked this thread in at least in the back2warcraft discord. Thanks!

 

[WolfFarkas]

@mafe, is imposible to see wich users votes each entry,


Melee Mapping contest #3 - Poll

in previous contest, votes where public, I could know who votes my entry, I want to know my fans XD

in this way votes are secret.

I know there is an option when you create the poll that allows to see the users that vote.

I am ok with the poll as it is, but well maybe Naze can make the votes public.

 

[mafe]

@mafe, is imposible to see wich users votes each entry,

Yes, apparently I made a mistake when creating the poll. Hopefully naze can fix this, but we should give him some time to react. If not, we will either continue with this poll or recreate a new one, though this would mean that those who have voted already will need to do it again.

But for some good news: I'm planning to gather a few people to play some test games and have them streamed. If all goes well, there should be a stream tonight on the twitch channel of BaronVonSG: Twitch
Obviously, we cant play all the maps in one go, but I'm optimistic that we will get to play each map at least once while I'm working on my reviews. VODs should be available on twitch if you cant catch the stream live.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Yes, apparently I made a mistake when creating the poll. Hopefully naze can fix this, but we should give him some time to react. If not, we will either continue with this poll or recreate a new one, though this would mean that those who have voted already will need to do it again.

But for some good news: I'm planning to gather a few people to play some test games and have them streamed. If all goes well, there should be a stream tonight on the twitch channel of BaronVonSG: Twitch
Obviously, we cant play all the maps in one go, but I'm optimistic that we will get to play each map at least once while I'm working on my reviews. VODs should be available on twitch if you cant catch the stream live.

Agree with you
Hope Naze can help us to make the user votes "visible and public", taggin him.

@Naze

 

[mafe]

Live on Twitch for now
Twitch hi2haco joined us
Now added the replays from today. Obviously, we didnt get to play every single map, but I'm planning to continue soon.

 

[Cepheid]

Had a lot of fun playing the maps tonight guys, I enjoyed all the games, My favourites were Vile Reef and Hillsbrad Creek.

 

[WolfFarkas]

thanks @mafe for link and zip
and thanks for all the guys that did the beta test.

 

[mafe]

VoDs available too:
Twitch
Twitch (Starting around 3:45).

 

[Naze]

Nice!

Well it seems you guys got around the problem, right? Now I can see the results without having to vote.

Poll is moved to the main Arena lobby. The green notice on top will be up soon. I announced this poll in the contests channel of our Hive Discord.

 

[deepstrasz]

Well it seems you guys got around the problem, right? Now I can see the results without having to vote.

You can because you're a mod, maybe. I can't see who voted what but only the vote number.

 

[Meerel]

maybe i should have changed those creepcamps after all

 

[Naze]

I can't see who voted what but only the vote number.

Thanks, that's what I needed to know.

[Annoucement]

Yep, I couldn't help avoiding it: the poll has been reset. Because of it the duration has been reset to 2 weeks again, but starting from today. Hopefully the loss wasn't so big because the poll has been up since yesterday.

@Meerel @XanderD @Cepheid and @Ragnaros17 you and others are welcome to vote again if you voted in this poll before the reset.

 

[XanderD]

It wasn't me. And I don't intend to vote at all - I also didn't vote in the previous contest.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Thanks, that's what I needed to know.

[Annoucement]

Yep, I couldn't help avoiding it: the poll has been reset. Because of it the duration has been reset to 2 weeks again, but starting from today. Hopefully the loss wasn't so big because the poll has been up since yesterday.

@Meerel @XanderD @Cepheid and @Ragnaros17 you and others are welcome to vote again if you voted in this poll before the reset.

thanks for fixing, I didnt vote either just in case of a reset, and still deciding the top 5 of all maps.

I want to say that now votes can be seen perfectly and well, few loss, 4-5 votes no big deal. great it was fixed

thanks Naze

 

[Rockstar356]

I had already voted before the reset
I will vote again then

 

[WolfFarkas]

Well I think I decided my top 5 of maps, I want to say in a very very subjetive way.

For my votes I used Restor Method.
Open 1 map look at it and put it in place 1, open a second map. compare it, and decide if goes as 1st or 2nd.
open another map, if IMO is not better than 2nd, 3rd place, if is better than second compare against 1, and so on.

To decide, I consider mostly
- neutrals positions/distribution, creeps levels and aggro.
- goldmine expandings options.
- Early play options and overall game options.
- This time I almost didnt consider enviroment. I know is like 35 % score, but I think in general tile mix and doodad use are well done, but I do penaliced flat terrain and monotile terrain.
- in some cases I used items to un-tie maps, for the last 5th post wich like 3-4 maps could go there. (also I saw the items pretty much wise used, that why I wanted to avoid nit pick between items loots, I use creeps types/skills and levels before fall in items).

So my top 5 in alphabetic order (not score order)

-Guardians by Arrr
-Hillbrad Creek by Mr.Henci.
-Lordaeron Plaza by XanderD.
-The Consortium by Keito.
-Vile Reef by Jaleveliki.

Also I want to mention that included in my top 8, and maps that was hard to me to decide for the 5th place, these ones could have been in my 5th post, but cant vote them all, saw them and compare them like 4-5 times. again alphabetic order, not score order.

-Bandits City by Rockstar356.
-Terrace Fields by Nudl9.
-The Time Gates by Twilight.

and for the others maps I have to say great work, because I took time to decide 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 places. It was a high quality contest IMO.

And well Sentrywizz map shure was unique, we had like 10 places empty so why not? thanks for your unique ideas. Maybe that map can be used for an altered melee with all that hostile towers and boats. or it could be some sort of water TD, I think water TD doesnt exist, they are all in land.
I like how you used those piers in the center. I am also wondering if those hostile zappers will kaboom you.

, great contest, until the results!!

If someone else want to talk about all the maps, do a speech, or make long tables, or tell tauren jokes, please do, we have like 2-4 weeks to fill.

 

[sentrywiz]

And well Sentrywizz map shure was unique, we had like 10 places empty so why not? thanks for your unique ideas. Maybe that map can be used for an altered melee with all that hostile towers and boats. or it could be some sort of water TD, I think water TD doesnt exist, they are all in land.
I like how you used those piers in the center. I am also wondering if those hostile zappers will kaboom you.

, great contest, until the results!!

If someone else want to talk about all the maps, do a speech, or make long tables, or tell tauren jokes, please do, we have like 2-4 weeks to fill.

I like to think outside the box. Melee is stale in my view, but those that love it
must love it for what it is.

Thanks! I also like how that turned out too.

WaterTD sounds like a TD. The map is more naval zone control within a melee map.

You don't have to use a boat or hire frigates or fight the armada in the center.
You can chop / destroy the lumber at the expansions and you get to the opponent by land.
I didn't want to trap players so they must use boats or flying. Just make it take longer.

Yes sappers do.

Towers are placed at strategic locations, good vs you or in your favor.
Like I said, you can play it like an "unusual" melee, but you can also
take advantage of key locations for all sorts of wonderful scenarios.

 

[XanderD]

or tell tauren jokes, please do

"How long is a Tauren pregnancy?" - "A year and a calf"

 

[Rockstar356]

 

[FranzVader_CZ]

...or tell tauren jokes, please do...

Two taurens are talking. "Are you scared of mad cow disease?" "No. I am a goblin"

 

[WolfFarkas]

"If someone else want to talk about all the maps, do a speech, or make long tables, or tell tauren jokes, please do, we have like 2-4 weeks to fill"

I was hoping that users post something like I vote...., I like .... maps that, , my top 3 are... that stuff. or post a video or screens of the maps or something
the taurens jokes was a joke in my post, never think you would actually go with tauren jokes,

but we shouldnt tell tauren jokes only because is spamming here.

 

[sentrywiz]

"If someone else want to talk about all the maps, do a speech, or make long tables, or tell tauren jokes, please do, we have like 2-4 weeks to fill"

I was hoping that users post something like I vote...., I like .... maps that, , my top 3 are... that stuff. or post a video or screens of the maps or something
the taurens jokes was a joke in my post, never think you would actually go with tauren jokes,

but we shouldnt tell tauren jokes only because is spamming here.

How does a tauren hide in an apple tree?
-He paints his balls red.

Next time leave out the tauren jokes. Cuz nobody ain't joking about tauren jokes.

Also Mr. Henci's map looks by far the most balanced of the lot.
And its kicking ass in the rankings.

 

[Meerel]

i will give some feedback on all maps. im a design guy so keep that in mind before reading. i will also give school grades from 1 to 6.
overall this will be extremely negativ but thats just what i think. (english is not my native language)

Bandit City: 3

Overall i think it looks ok, its sometimes a little bit boring in terms of design, it has alot of empty areas. the mapname doesnt correlate with the design, i know there are only bandit creepcamps but i would expect them to leave a little bit of damage on the buildings and overall dirtyness. unfortunatly the city is really clean and has a sorceress/dalaran vibe.

the green creepcamp that leads into to city shouldnt be there, it will aggro on scouting units.
for a 2v2 map it doesnt have enough creepcamps and the red spot is kinda weak, maybe that promotes more fighting but the expansion design tends more towards early expand and defending.
the goblin shop creepcamp has a lvl7 banditlord with chaos dmg and drops a lvl 2 item, should be at least a 3 or more. The creepflow feels very clunky, the medium orange camp is completely missing so i have nowhere to go after i creep one of the greens. i have to move back to my base or just have to wait for more units to creep the natural. maybe you could creep it together and expand early as i said before.

the lvl4 bandit with poison is in almost every creepcamp, thats extremly problematic. especially on the natural expand it just kills every human.
the overall texturing job is ok, the mapsize is good.

Despite the negativ feedback i still voted for this map, its not totally off the rails like other entries and provides a typical Blizzard Map feeling.

Forgotten Halls: 5

well first of all i dont think this tileset should be used for a melee map. maybe there is a way to make it look more comfortable but i dont think forgotten halls achieved it.
the texturing job is mediocre, the doodad usage is kinda uninspirational. the map has definitely way too many trees.
in general i think the playable mapsize on any map should be completely useable or gameplay relevant.

not going into creeps all that much, there are not balanced at all. the creepstrengh and itemlvl dont match and are not based on blizzard standard.
the neutral buildings are kinda weird, lordaeron merc camp shouldnt be used with this tileset, the relevant shop and gobolab are all togehter at the bottom, maybe delete the merc camp and changed it with the shop. a dragon roost is imbalanced.

i think the base layout for a 2v2 is good, it reminds me of goldshire where 1 player is more exposed then the other.
Sorry for the harsh words but im just honest.

Guardians: 3

this one is difficult. first i was just completely turned off by the texturing but looking closer the map is actually really good.
it has nice base layouts, good creepflow, creepstrengh and itemdrops. Very nice design on the borders and mainbases.

unfortunatly its a 6 player map and has the sizing for a 6 player map so in my opinion its too big for 2v2 and in the end i couldnt get over the mesmerizing/horrible texturing job in the middle.

in a 3v3 contest and smooth textures it could totally win though

Hillsbrad Creek: 1

well hillsbrad is the best map that was submitted, good job on that

i really like the mapflow, despite beeing actually really big the basesetup lets it feel much smaller. the texturing and design is absolutely amazing.
i would have liked to see the complete map in lordaeron summer tileset but thats not a big deal.

well i dont know what to say, it just gives me a nice feeling looking at it, playing it. thats really the most important part of any map. i really hope to see this one on ladder

King and Country:

i think i did a good job, the creepproblems i didnt address in the mapthread are actually fixable. but i dont want to talk about my own map as much, thats on you to decide.

Lordaeron Plaza: 4

this map suffers heavily from 'narrow path syndrom'. the naturals are not open enough so its really really difficult to attack if there are towered up. also not sure about the healing/mana pot drops.
maybe create more path into the middle and open up the areas.

i really like the mainbase setup, its different and looks cool. the lordaeron symbol in the middle is awesome.

Overgrown Center: 4

144x144 is too big even when the mainbases are not located in the corners. this map suffers from 'narrow path syndrom' aswell.
thats really unfortunate because the creep design strengh and item setup is really good.

the goblin lab area is absolutely amazing, the texturing, doodad usage and water color really fit together.
the bandit lord creepcamp on the left side is also amazing.

Stairs of Destiny: 6

i have no idea whats going on. im sorry.

Terrace Fields: 2

another really good entrie, i think the layout is really nice because its a true 2v2 map. you have to play together from the beginning. other maps tend to be 2 1v1s.
overall good creepstrengh/items, nice texturing, doodad usage and area spacing.

the waterfalls could be irritating, not sure.


The rest will follow tomorrow.

 

[WolfFarkas]

i will give some feedback on all maps. im a design guy so keep that in mind before reading. i will also give school grades from 1 to 6.
overall this will be extremely negativ but thats just what i think. (english is not my native language)

Bandit City: 3

Overall i think it looks ok, its sometimes a little bit boring in terms of design, it has alot of empty areas. the mapname doesnt correlate with the design, i know there are only bandit creepcamps but i would expect them to leave a little bit of damage on the buildings and overall dirtyness. unfortunatly the city is really clean and has a sorceress/dalaran vibe.

the green creepcamp that leads into to city shouldnt be there, it will aggro on scouting units.
for a 2v2 map it doesnt have enough creepcamps and the red spot is kinda weak, maybe that promotes more fighting but the expansion design tends more towards early expand and defending.
the goblin shop creepcamp has a lvl7 banditlord with chaos dmg and drops a lvl 2 item, should be at least a 3 or more. The creepflow feels very clunky, the medium orange camp is completely missing so i have nowhere to go after i creep one of the greens. i have to move back to my base or just have to wait for more units to creep the natural. maybe you could creep it together and expand early as i said before.

the lvl4 bandit with poison is in almost every creepcamp, thats extremly problematic. especially on the natural expand it just kills every human.
the overall texturing job is ok, the mapsize is good.

Despite the negativ feedback i still voted for this map, its not totally off the rails like other entries and provides a typical Blizzard Map feeling.

Forgotten Halls: 5

well first of all i dont think this tileset should be used for a melee map. maybe there is a way to make it look more comfortable but i dont think forgotten halls achieved it.
the texturing job is mediocre, the doodad usage is kinda uninspirational. the map has definitely way too many trees.
in general i think the playable mapsize on any map should be completely useable or gameplay relevant.

not going into creeps all that much, there are not balanced at all. the creepstrengh and itemlvl dont match and are not based on blizzard standard.
the neutral buildings are kinda weird, lordaeron merc camp shouldnt be used with this tileset, the relevant shop and gobolab are all togehter at the bottom, maybe delete the merc camp and changed it with the shop. a dragon roost is imbalanced.

i think the base layout for a 2v2 is good, it reminds me of goldshire where 1 player is more exposed then the other.
Sorry for the harsh words but im just honest.

Guardians: 3

this one is difficult. first i was just completely turned off by the texturing but looking closer the map is actually really good.
it has nice base layouts, good creepflow, creepstrengh and itemdrops. Very nice design on the borders and mainbases.

unfortunatly its a 6 player map and has the sizing for a 6 player map so in my opinion its too big for 2v2 and in the end i couldnt get over the mesmerizing/horrible texturing job in the middle.

in a 3v3 contest and smooth textures it could totally win though

Hillsbrad Creek: 1

well hillsbrad is the best map that was submitted, good job on that

i really like the mapflow, despite beeing actually really big the basesetup lets it feel much smaller. the texturing and design is absolutely amazing.
i would have liked to see the complete map in lordaeron summer tileset but thats not a big deal.

well i dont know what to say, it just gives me a nice feeling looking at it, playing it. thats really the most important part of any map. i really hope to see this one on ladder

King and Country:

i think i did a good job, the creepproblems i didnt address in the mapthread are actually fixable. but i dont want to talk about my own map as much, thats on you to decide.

Lordaeron Plaza: 4

this map suffers heavily from 'narrow path syndrom'. the naturals are not open enough so its really really difficult to attack if there are towered up. also not sure about the healing/mana pot drops.
maybe create more path into the middle and open up the areas.

i really like the mainbase setup, its different and looks cool. the lordaeron symbol in the middle is awesome.

Overgrown Center: 4

144x144 is too big even when the mainbases are not located in the corners. this map suffers from 'narrow path syndrom' aswell.
thats really unfortunate because the creep design strengh and item setup is really good.

the goblin lab area is absolutely amazing, the texturing, doodad usage and water color really fit together.
the bandit lord creepcamp on the left side is also amazing.

Stairs of Destiny: 6

i have no idea whats going on. im sorry.

Terrace Fields: 2

another really good entrie, i think the layout is really nice because its a true 2v2 map. you have to play together from the beginning. other maps tend to be 2 1v1s.
overall good creepstrengh/items, nice texturing, doodad usage and area spacing.

the waterfalls could be irritating, not sure.


The rest will follow tomorrow.

"i will give some feedback on all maps."

you are not giving feedback on my map.

Stairs of Destiny: 6

"i have no idea whats going on. im sorry."

It is sad to see that you are not making any statement about my map like the others.

Things, like "I dont like the unbuildable tile, I dont like the borders, I dont like the creeps used. I dont like huge waterfalls in corners, I dont like tavern area, I dont like cliff use".
I can see you dont like the map but you are not telling why, not a single reason,


I can tell you what I dont like from my map.

1- base shape could have been better, not the best and not the worst ( I had worst base shapes in previous maps).
2- marketplace creeping route lacks items, only tomes. I should used more permanent L1, and the hydra camp loot something better.
even if those drops in question fits creeps level, they are old and slow paced for competitive play,
I stalled in time about creep drops, that now for a green creep L5 is better a Permanent L1 instead of a tome and for a green L9 a permanent L2 instead a permanent L1.
An orange L10 drooping a tome L2, i saw it before and imitated, I stalled in thinking that tomes doesnt fill your item bag, and I like space for 2 potions, 2 scrolls, the racial shop orb to attack aerials, that stuff.

3- more wood could be placed for log, mountain gigants, keeper of the grove spells, all that stuff.
4- it may be that the paired goldmine idea benefits humans play (paired goldmines is nothing new it was used in 2 maps of the 4v4 contest before),
5- it would be better to have another red creep looting a permanent L4 somewhere.

if you see both twich videos of the play of my map, you will see that I received some positive and negative comments.

thanks for the effort of giving feedback to the maps, I like to read users opinions of the maps.

 

[Nudl9]

I think you could have fixed most things if you took the time to playtest it, the feedback you got from stream would naturally become evident through a few playtest.

Theres also room for improvement concerning presentation.
Which is what i think meerel is looking at.

 

[sentrywiz]

@Meerel "well hillsbrad is the best map that was submitted"

You might as well have said "I think hillsbrad is gonna win"
instead of the reviews you left. Also my map is missing.

Your criticisms also look very subjective. Like "I don't like this, I don't like that".
Selfishly subjective, like your opinion is the way all melee maps should be.
Even if you're a judge, I'd say your criticism is selfish and not constructive.

Also "ell first of all i dont think this tileset should be used for a melee map. "
That's rather rude, especially after someone makes a map with the tileset.
Even if you think its ugly, say it looks ugly, feels ugly... not just, say "this sucks".

From a designer's perspective, I find it strange that your view isn't more objective.

 

[Nudl9]

Design is a subjective thing though.
Not everything has to be explained with a million words.

I agree with Meerel on tilesets, Outland, Dungeons, Underground shouldn't be used because the tilesets are bad.
If the tileset is too dark certain units can't be seen well like Undead, this goes for Underground, Dungeon, Felwood type tilesets.
Tilesets with lots of blue actually damage (particulary azure color) your eyes and should be avoided at all cost.
Underground, icecrown glacier and northrend tend to turn out too dark or has so much blue hurts your eyes.
With Outland, Black Citadel and Underground it's more of a color theory thing.
Red is a color used in sports to signal aggression and you'll see that it's popular among top teams/players.
It's hard to tell how much of an impact it has on mood, but it's generally better to steer away.
Unlike other colors green is actually relaxing to look at.
It's used in hospitals to contrast the red/blood.
I don't know the specifics, but if anything the ladder map pool seems to back up that people prefer green.
So why use subpar colors when you can add some green to your maps?
It's like picking a bottom tier tileset for the sake of doing something different.

edit:
I think if you really want to use these tilesets you have to compensate by adding some flavor.
-Lordaeron Fall/Village Fall is a pretty drab and depressing tileset because the orange is often overwhelming and the doodads are usually depressive in nature, but if you add some contrasts or flavor it can be used to a strong effect (1)(2).
So if you want to do an Outland map you might want some green or neutral colors.
-Underground, some sand would be good.
-Dungeon, you'll be looking towards less dominant colors since red is so strong.
-Icecrown/Nortrend, just dont use too much snow in areas that matter, Northeren Isles is a great example since snow/ice is used sparingly and only in less important areas. Another good example is the new version of Lost Temple, which Blizzard turned white and now everybody hates it.
-Felwood you'll need to contrast the dark and depressing colors since it affects mood. The tiles themselves are really bad looking in general. I'm still not sure why people insist on using this tileset, it's by far the worst one when left alone.
-Sunken Ruins: Great tileset, but ugly ass trees and the standard ruins tile is quite obnoxious to look at and generally hard to look at if you're units are running on it. So just use the trees in a way that make them look good and use the ruin tile sparingly. Sunken Ruins maps tend to suffer from too much sand as well.

 

[deepstrasz]

What's damaging your eyes is looking at the screen for a prolonged time without blinking among others. The colours aren't hurtful as long as there is no intense light coming out like FX in many video games nowadays.
Psychologically, blue is considered a relaxing colour. Otherwise, imagine how depressed, angry or frustrated would people be seeing the sky blue most of the time. It's actually during winter when you get a worse mood because the sky is white-grayish and most of the time cloudy.
Note that humans aren't quite genetically rats.

In the current context, it's subjective with some spice of objectiveness related to player colours not being properly seen on some tiles but there are green player colours too. In 1v1 (blue vs red), sure, but that's BlizzEnt's fault that they couldn't properly differentiate player colours on minimap from some tiles. Also, there's the that option where you can see any enemy red and ally teal. Moreover on snow, your units might be hard to see at times.

 

[WolfFarkas]

I think you could have fixed most things if you took the time to playtest it, the feedback you got from stream would naturally become evident through a few playtest.

Theres also room for improvement concerning presentation.
Which is what i think meerel is looking at.

I think you could have fixed most things if you took the time to playtest it

I took the time for play testing, I had played my map many times,
for the video I saw in twich it played somehow as I wanted.
if you see my entry thread you will see screens in game
but I did it against AI in normal because I am not that good playing,
if you see my changelog , you will see I did updates of the map.

Which is what i think meerel is looking at.

I am not mind reader, I dont know what @Meerel wanted to say about my map.

Theres also room for improvement concerning presentation.

I dont understand what do you mean by presentation, enviroment?, what I wrote in the entry?

@Meerel "well hillsbrad is the best map that was submitted"

You might as well have said "I think hillsbrad is gonna win"
instead of the reviews you left. Also my map is missing.

Your criticisms also look very subjective. Like "I don't like this, I don't like that".
Selfishly subjective, like your opinion is the way all melee maps should be.
Even if you're a judge, I'd say your criticism is selfish and not constructive.

Also "ell first of all i dont think this tileset should be used for a melee map. "
That's rather rude, especially after someone makes a map with the tileset.
Even if you think its ugly, say it looks ugly, feels ugly... not just, say "this sucks".

From a designer's perspective, I find it strange that your view isn't more objective.

he didnt review all the maps, just half maps, so give him time.

 

[Nudl9]

By presentation i mean the map submission.
Screenshots, text format.
I think screenshots are the most important.

 

[WolfFarkas]

By presentation i mean the map submission.
Screenshots, text format.
I think screenshots are the most important.

I submited like 20 screenshots, you 9, Mr.Henci 5 screenshots

I do not understand , seriously.

 

[Meerel]

sorry if anyone got offended but thats just my opinion. and im not a judge so it doesnt really matter.

everyone can post reviews if they want, so go ahead. Stairs of Destiny will get one aswell ragnaros

 

[Nudl9]

It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.
Twenty screenshots might even be too much.

The overview is the most important screenshot.
If you look at this screenshot i can hardly tell where it's possible to walk or whats going on the map.
You didn't disable "info display" either which makes pathing blockers show up.
You should tilt the camera so we get a sense of perspective and it helps clarify different heights on the map as well, if you use any cliff differences.
The terrain is also blends too well or has too much detail which creates visual clutter, which has more to do with the nature of Outland being a bad tileset, but anyway.

 

[WolfFarkas]

It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.
Twenty screenshots might even be too much.

The overview is the most important screenshot.
If you look at this screenshot i can hardly tell where it's possible to walk or whats going on the map.
You didn't disable "info display" either which makes pathing blockers show up.
You should tilt the camera so we get a sense of perspective and it helps clarify different heights on the map as well, if you use any cliff differences.
The terrain is also blends too well or has too much detail which creates visual clutter, which has more to do with the nature of Outland being a bad tileset, but anyway.

I can take multiple screenshots, and then join them in one to improve detail, that info helps me.


edit: I have to say that my pc is small with small prospects (my good pc died) so it has low resolution, I cant take that good screens as before, I did this cutting pasting but it has some screws, make like 16 screens fit is not easy.

map

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/data/ratory-images/158/158378-1420e576017f28cbea2646cac488b56f.jpg

sorry if anyone got offended but thats just my opinion. and im not a judge so it doesnt really matter.

everyone can post reviews if they want, so go ahead. Stairs of Destiny will get one aswell ragnaros

just to be clear I never stated that I was offended,
and I am not, I dont mind negative comments,
I am somehow perfectionist and when I screw , I never forget it.
but If I am going to receive the worst score of (6 acording to your score sys), I think is fair if I ask why.

 

[sentrywiz]

sorry if anyone got offended but thats just my opinion. and im not a judge so it doesnt really matter.

everyone can post reviews if they want, so go ahead. Stairs of Destiny will get one aswell ragnaros

overall this will be extremely negativ but thats just what i think.

See, for example, you gave a lot of feedback regarding Bandit City and even went
really micro into it, with creep placements, what it reminds you, what should/shouldn't be there.

Same for Forgotten Halls and others.

But for some maps, like Rag's, you just said "idk". Why bother even to say that?
You contributed nothing with that statement, you just made it sound like not worth your time.

he didnt review all the maps, just half maps, so give him time.

Well technically @Meerel didn't review your map, just said idk.
At this point, that's the review.

Design is a subjective thing though.
Not everything has to be explained with a million words.

You did however explain your thoughts with a million words.
As a constructive criticism. Also @deepstrasz helped with the case.

I wouldn't say to someone "that tileset is shit, never use it ever"
I'll describe why I think its shit, but mocking their choice is like mocking them.
That's why I'm slightly offended by @Meerel's choice of words.

@Meerel - What king and what country? Map is suck. Stupid name.
Never use it again. There, I reviewed your map. Super helpful right?

 

[WolfFarkas]

See, for example, you gave a lot of feedback regarding Bandit City and even went
really micro into it, with creep placements, what it reminds you, what should/shouldn't be there.

Same for Forgotten Halls and others.

But for some maps, like Rag's, you just said "idk". Why bother even to say that?
You contributed nothing with that statement, you just made it sound like not worth your time.



Well technically @Meerel didn't review your map, just said idk.
At this point, that's the review.



You did however explain your thoughts with a million words.
As a constructive criticism. Also @deepstrasz helped with the case.

I wouldn't say to someone "that tileset is shit, never use it ever"
I'll describe why I think its shit, but mocking their choice is like mocking them.
That's why I'm slightly offended by @Meerel's choice of words.

@Meerel - What king and what country? Map is suck. Stupid name.
Never use it again. There, I reviewed your map. Super helpful right?

calm down, we were all talking nicely, they stated their opinions nicely, I responded cold
and respectfully I stated my opinion.

no need to anger and launch bad words, seriously, your post is flamming and aggresive,
and never respond agresion with more agresion, is just bad.

sorry if anyone got offended but thats just my opinion. and im not a judge so it doesnt really matter.

everyone can post reviews if they want, so go ahead. Stairs of Destiny will get one aswell ragnaros

@sentrywiz
he said he will review my map, and also apologyced, so I dont see what the problem

really your flamming may end in that public feedback of maps will be cut, and we will have to wait boring and silent until results, in previous contest in the poll there was feedback and talking and everything nice,

and I really dont mind if they dont like Outland tiles, really I am ok with it , next time I want to use Lordaeron summer, did a LS map and I kinda like that tiles.

 

[sentrywiz]

calm down, we were all talking nicely, they stated their opinions nicely, I responded cold
no need to anger and launch bad words, seriously, your post is flamming and aggresive,
and never respond agresion with more agresion, is just bad.



he said he will review my map, and also apologyced, so I dont see what the problem


and I really dont mind if they dont like Outland tiles, really I am ok with it , next time I want to use Lordaeron summer, I kinda like that tiles.

Ok, my intent isn't to beat @Meerel down, just pointing out
some silly arguments and why its not good to use them.
Even provide a stupid example.

And this isn't all about you. @Meerel is eventually gonna look at my map too.
It would be nice to get a well worded criticism, one based on objective choice
and personal freedom. Saying your map is bad is aggressive and flammable
judgement based on subjective dislike. And that's not helpful if there's only subjective.

Sorry if I'm disrespectful towards any of you. I respect making maps and map makers a lot,
even if I completely hate their maps. And even if you hate all of my maps.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Ok, my intent isn't to beat the @Meerel down, just pointing out
some silly arguments and why its not good to use them.
Even provide a stupid example.

And this isn't all about you. @Meerel is eventually gonna look at my map too.
It would be nice to get a well worded criticism, one based on objective choice
and personal freedom. Saying your map is bad is aggressive and flammable
judgement based on subjective dislike. And that's not helpful.

Sorry if I'm disrespectful towards any of you. I respect making maps and map makers a lot,
even if I completely hate their maps. And even if you hate all of my maps.

"Saying your map is bad is aggressive and flammable"

there is something called speech freedom,

they, and everybody are free to say that my map is bad or that my map is not that good for competitive melee play as long as they use proper words.

they didnt used disrespectfully words or insults...

so there was no aggresion or flamming from their part in any moment directed to me.

"And even if you hate all of my maps."

I dont hate your map, hate is a no-usefull feeling. also from 25 spots only 15 filled, so thanks for joining us,.
I may say (respectfully) a map doesnt follow some melee basis, but not for that I will hate it.

it may come that from these ideas exchange, I learned some things,

my only wish now, is that a friendly enviroment will prevail in the thread.

 

[Meerel]

''my only wish now, is that a friendly enviroment will prevail in the thread.''

i agree. i will try to be more objective in future posts.

 

[WolfFarkas]

''my only wish now, is that a friendly enviroment will prevail in the thread.''

i agree. i will try to be more objective in future posts.

please dont refrain in giving feedback, I want to continue reading you if you are willing to continue writting.

a general question

there will be more melee mapping contest? will Hive maps and Hive comunity continue to exist?

or after reforjed thats it, all will change forever as we know, new wc3 map files extentions for a totally new game? .

 

[deepstrasz]

they, and everybody are free to say that my map is bad or that my map is not that good for competitive melee play as long as they use proper words.

Freedom but with limits? Is that freedom?

there will be more melee mapping contest? will Hive maps and Hive comunity continue to exist?

or after reforjed thats it, all will change forever as we know, new wc3 map files extentions for a totally new game? .

It all depends on the community what maps you'll make? No new extension since melee will have no custom imports for ladder, assuming the transition process from original to Reforged is seamless.

 

[FranzVader_CZ]

there will be more melee mapping contest? will Hive maps and Hive comunity continue to exist?

or after reforjed thats it, all will change forever as we know, new wc3 map files extentions for a totally new game? .

My idea is that maps will be compatible when contain no custom imports. Compatible for both games and editors since players with W3Reforge can play with players using W3TFT as was announced. Patch will solve this compatibility on W3TFT side.
BTW I think interesting could be huge 24 players map contest next time.

 

[Mr.Henci]

@FranzVader_CZ While the community surelly needs 12+ players maps, I'm not sure if many mappers can pull it off. Last 24p map contest had like, 4 or 5 entries, just because it is pain in the ass the make a bigger map than 4v4. (Even 4v4 maps can be hard to finish.)

 

[FranzVader_CZ]

@FranzVader_CZ While the community surelly needs 12+ players maps, I'm not sure if many mappers can pull it off. Last 24p map contest had like, 4 or 5 entries, just because it is pain in the ass the make a bigger map than 4v4. (Even 4v4 maps can be hard to finish.)

You are right it is kind a chalange and after experience with deadline for this contest, it needs at least half a year But this also means there are not many 24p maps in a reasonable quality. In the same time it offers new game experience playing huge FFA, 2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2 etc. Sure contest can be more general like make a large map for 12-24 players.

 

[sentrywiz]

"Saying your map is bad is aggressive and flammable"

there is something called speech freedom,

they, and everybody are free to say that my map is bad or that my map is not that good for competitive melee play as long as they use proper words.

they didnt used disrespectfully words or insults...

so there was no aggresion or flamming from their part in any moment directed to me.

"And even if you hate all of my maps."

I dont hate your map, hate is a no-usefull feeling. also from 25 spots only 15 filled, so thanks for joining us,.
I may say (respectfully) a map doesnt follow some melee basis, but not for that I will hate it.

it may come that from these ideas exchange, I learned some things,

my only wish now, is that a friendly enviroment will prevail in the thread.

Speech freedom yes. You can say all the hate you have.
I'm not stopping feedback or critique. I'm just pointing
that you can say everything on your mind, but also make
it helpful or word it a way that isn't disrespectful.

Calling someone's map bad and giving no arguments on why, how
isn't gonna make a modder wanna upgrade it. Its just provoking
a counter argument with poor quality as well.

''my only wish now, is that a friendly enviroment will prevail in the thread.''

i agree. i will try to be more objective in future posts.

Awesome, that's all I wanted. More objectivity along your subjective thoughts.
And I think others will benefit from your objectivity.

 

[Keito]

I voted for Venture Co. Shipyards cuz I'm an element of chaos. Also I don't wanna give my competetition better chances to win. Also the map just made me laugh and it's too funny and also I think polls are dum and I'm a rebel n wanna be a little rebelious. As I said, I'm an element of chaos. Go Venture Co. Shipyards!

 

[WolfFarkas]

I voted for Venture Co. Shipyards cuz I'm an element of chaos. Also I don't wanna give my competetition better chances to win. Also the map just made me laugh and it's too funny and also I think polls are dum and I'm a rebel n wanna be a little rebelious. As I said, I'm an element of chaos. Go Venture Co. Shipyards!

as rational being, I voted five maps using rational logic, but now in terms of chaos and feelings I want The Consortium to win all this (also map has nice balance + marketplaces).