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Melee Mapping Contest #4 - Poll

Discussion in 'Poll Depository' started by mafe, Apr 26, 2019.

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Cast your vote up to 5 entries: (READ THE RULES below before voting)

Poll closed May 11, 2019.
  1. Lordaeron Plaza by XanderD

    21.4%
  2. Hillsbrad Creek by Mr.Henci

    50.0%
  3. Overgrown Center by DuckDuckGoose

    7.1%
  4. The Consortium by Keito

    25.0%
  5. Vile Reef by JaleVeliki

    39.3%
  6. Stairs of Destiny by Ragnaros17

    14.3%
  7. King and Country by Meerel

    35.7%
  8. Forgotten Halls by mmtt

    14.3%
  9. Veilswamp by Khaldaiel

    3.6%
  10. Bandit's City by Rockstar356

    21.4%
  11. The Time Gates by Twilight

    14.3%
  12. Terrace Fields by Nudl9

    21.4%
  13. Underground Oasis by Blood Raven

    25.0%
  14. Venture Co. Shipyards by sentrywiz

    3.6%
  15. Westfall Adventure by FranzVader_CZ

    17.9%
  16. Guardians by Arrr

    14.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. XanderD

    XanderD

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    "How long is a Tauren pregnancy?" - "A year and a calf"
     
  2. Rockstar356

    Rockstar356

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  3. FranzVader_CZ

    FranzVader_CZ

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    Two taurens are talking. "Are you scared of mad cow disease?" "No. I am a goblin"
     
  4. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    "If someone else want to talk about all the maps, do a speech, or make long tables, or tell tauren jokes, please do, we have like 2-4 weeks to fill"

    I was hoping that users post something like I vote...., I like .... maps that, , my top 3 are... that stuff. or post a video or screens of the maps or something
    the taurens jokes was a joke in my post, never think you would actually go with tauren jokes,

    but we shouldnt tell tauren jokes only because is spamming here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  5. sentrywiz

    sentrywiz

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    How does a tauren hide in an apple tree?
    -He paints his balls red.


    Next time leave out the tauren jokes. Cuz nobody ain't joking about tauren jokes. :D

    Also Mr. Henci's map looks by far the most balanced of the lot.
    And its kicking ass in the rankings.
     
  6. Meerel

    Meerel

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    i will give some feedback on all maps. im a design guy so keep that in mind before reading. i will also give school grades from 1 to 6.
    overall this will be extremely negativ but thats just what i think. (english is not my native language)

    Bandit City: 3

    Overall i think it looks ok, its sometimes a little bit boring in terms of design, it has alot of empty areas. the mapname doesnt correlate with the design, i know there are only bandit creepcamps but i would expect them to leave a little bit of damage on the buildings and overall dirtyness. unfortunatly the city is really clean and has a sorceress/dalaran vibe.

    the green creepcamp that leads into to city shouldnt be there, it will aggro on scouting units.
    for a 2v2 map it doesnt have enough creepcamps and the red spot is kinda weak, maybe that promotes more fighting but the expansion design tends more towards early expand and defending.
    the goblin shop creepcamp has a lvl7 banditlord with chaos dmg and drops a lvl 2 item, should be at least a 3 or more. The creepflow feels very clunky, the medium orange camp is completely missing so i have nowhere to go after i creep one of the greens. i have to move back to my base or just have to wait for more units to creep the natural. maybe you could creep it together and expand early as i said before.

    the lvl4 bandit with poison is in almost every creepcamp, thats extremly problematic. especially on the natural expand it just kills every human.
    the overall texturing job is ok, the mapsize is good.

    Despite the negativ feedback i still voted for this map, its not totally off the rails like other entries and provides a typical Blizzard Map feeling.

    Forgotten Halls: 5


    well first of all i dont think this tileset should be used for a melee map. maybe there is a way to make it look more comfortable but i dont think forgotten halls achieved it.
    the texturing job is mediocre, the doodad usage is kinda uninspirational. the map has definitely way too many trees.
    in general i think the playable mapsize on any map should be completely useable or gameplay relevant.

    not going into creeps all that much, there are not balanced at all. the creepstrengh and itemlvl dont match and are not based on blizzard standard.
    the neutral buildings are kinda weird, lordaeron merc camp shouldnt be used with this tileset, the relevant shop and gobolab are all togehter at the bottom, maybe delete the merc camp and changed it with the shop. a dragon roost is imbalanced.

    i think the base layout for a 2v2 is good, it reminds me of goldshire where 1 player is more exposed then the other.
    Sorry for the harsh words but im just honest.

    Guardians: 3


    this one is difficult. first i was just completely turned off by the texturing but looking closer the map is actually really good.
    it has nice base layouts, good creepflow, creepstrengh and itemdrops. Very nice design on the borders and mainbases.


    unfortunatly its a 6 player map and has the sizing for a 6 player map so in my opinion its too big for 2v2 and in the end i couldnt get over the mesmerizing/horrible texturing job in the middle.

    in a 3v3 contest and smooth textures it could totally win though :D

    Hillsbrad Creek: 1

    well hillsbrad is the best map that was submitted, good job on that :)

    i really like the mapflow, despite beeing actually really big the basesetup lets it feel much smaller. the texturing and design is absolutely amazing.
    i would have liked to see the complete map in lordaeron summer tileset but thats not a big deal.

    well i dont know what to say, it just gives me a nice feeling looking at it, playing it. thats really the most important part of any map. i really hope to see this one on ladder :)

    King and Country:


    i think i did a good job, the creepproblems i didnt address in the mapthread are actually fixable. but i dont want to talk about my own map as much, thats on you to decide.

    Lordaeron Plaza: 4


    this map suffers heavily from 'narrow path syndrom'. the naturals are not open enough so its really really difficult to attack if there are towered up. also not sure about the healing/mana pot drops.
    maybe create more path into the middle and open up the areas.

    i really like the mainbase setup, its different and looks cool. the lordaeron symbol in the middle is awesome.


    Overgrown Center: 4

    144x144 is too big even when the mainbases are not located in the corners. this map suffers from 'narrow path syndrom' aswell.
    thats really unfortunate because the creep design strengh and item setup is really good.

    the goblin lab area is absolutely amazing, the texturing, doodad usage and water color really fit together.
    the bandit lord creepcamp on the left side is also amazing. :)

    Stairs of Destiny: 6


    i have no idea whats going on. im sorry.

    Terrace Fields: 2


    another really good entrie, i think the layout is really nice because its a true 2v2 map. you have to play together from the beginning. other maps tend to be 2 1v1s.
    overall good creepstrengh/items, nice texturing, doodad usage and area spacing.

    the waterfalls could be irritating, not sure.


    The rest will follow tomorrow.



     
  7. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    "i will give some feedback on all maps."

    you are not giving feedback on my map.

    Stairs of Destiny: 6

    "i have no idea whats going on. im sorry."


    It is sad to see that you are not making any statement about my map like the others.

    Things, like "I dont like the unbuildable tile, I dont like the borders, I dont like the creeps used. I dont like huge waterfalls in corners, I dont like tavern area, I dont like cliff use".
    I can see you dont like the map but you are not telling why, not a single reason,


    I can tell you what I dont like from my map.

    1- base shape could have been better, not the best and not the worst ( I had worst base shapes in previous maps).
    2- marketplace creeping route lacks items, only tomes. I should used more permanent L1, and the hydra camp loot something better.
    even if those drops in question fits creeps level, they are old and slow paced for competitive play,
    I stalled in time about creep drops, that now for a green creep L5 is better a Permanent L1 instead of a tome and for a green L9 a permanent L2 instead a permanent L1.
    An orange L10 drooping a tome L2, i saw it before and imitated, I stalled in thinking that tomes doesnt fill your item bag, and I like space for 2 potions, 2 scrolls, the racial shop orb to attack aerials, that stuff.

    3- more wood could be placed for log, mountain gigants, keeper of the grove spells, all that stuff.
    4- it may be that the paired goldmine idea benefits humans play (paired goldmines is nothing new it was used in 2 maps of the 4v4 contest before),
    5- it would be better to have another red creep looting a permanent L4 somewhere.

    if you see both twich videos of the play of my map, you will see that I received some positive and negative comments.

    thanks for the effort of giving feedback to the maps, I like to read users opinions of the maps.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  8. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    I think you could have fixed most things if you took the time to playtest it, the feedback you got from stream would naturally become evident through a few playtest.

    Theres also room for improvement concerning presentation.
    Which is what i think meerel is looking at.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  9. sentrywiz

    sentrywiz

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    @Meerel "well hillsbrad is the best map that was submitted"

    You might as well have said "I think hillsbrad is gonna win"
    instead of the reviews you left. Also my map is missing.

    Your criticisms also look very subjective. Like "I don't like this, I don't like that".
    Selfishly subjective, like your opinion is the way all melee maps should be.
    Even if you're a judge, I'd say your criticism is selfish and not constructive.

    Also "ell first of all i dont think this tileset should be used for a melee map. "
    That's rather rude, especially after someone makes a map with the tileset.
    Even if you think its ugly, say it looks ugly, feels ugly... not just, say "this sucks".

    From a designer's perspective, I find it strange that your view isn't more objective.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  10. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Design is a subjective thing though.
    Not everything has to be explained with a million words.

    I agree with Meerel on tilesets, Outland, Dungeons, Underground shouldn't be used because the tilesets are bad.
    If the tileset is too dark certain units can't be seen well like Undead, this goes for Underground, Dungeon, Felwood type tilesets.
    Tilesets with lots of blue actually damage (particulary azure color) your eyes and should be avoided at all cost.
    Underground, icecrown glacier and northrend tend to turn out too dark or has so much blue hurts your eyes.
    With Outland, Black Citadel and Underground it's more of a color theory thing.
    Red is a color used in sports to signal aggression and you'll see that it's popular among top teams/players.
    It's hard to tell how much of an impact it has on mood, but it's generally better to steer away.
    Unlike other colors green is actually relaxing to look at.
    It's used in hospitals to contrast the red/blood.
    I don't know the specifics, but if anything the ladder map pool seems to back up that people prefer green.
    So why use subpar colors when you can add some green to your maps?
    It's like picking a bottom tier tileset for the sake of doing something different.

    edit:
    I think if you really want to use these tilesets you have to compensate by adding some flavor.
    -Lordaeron Fall/Village Fall is a pretty drab and depressing tileset because the orange is often overwhelming and the doodads are usually depressive in nature, but if you add some contrasts or flavor it can be used to a strong effect (1)(2).
    So if you want to do an Outland map you might want some green or neutral colors.
    -Underground, some sand would be good.
    -Dungeon, you'll be looking towards less dominant colors since red is so strong.
    -Icecrown/Nortrend, just dont use too much snow in areas that matter, Northeren Isles is a great example since snow/ice is used sparingly and only in less important areas. Another good example is the new version of Lost Temple, which Blizzard turned white and now everybody hates it.
    -Felwood you'll need to contrast the dark and depressing colors since it affects mood. The tiles themselves are really bad looking in general. I'm still not sure why people insist on using this tileset, it's by far the worst one when left alone.
    -Sunken Ruins: Great tileset, but ugly ass trees and the standard ruins tile is quite obnoxious to look at and generally hard to look at if you're units are running on it. So just use the trees in a way that make them look good and use the ruin tile sparingly. Sunken Ruins maps tend to suffer from too much sand as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  11. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    What's damaging your eyes is looking at the screen for a prolonged time without blinking among others. The colours aren't hurtful as long as there is no intense light coming out like FX in many video games nowadays.
    Psychologically, blue is considered a relaxing colour. Otherwise, imagine how depressed, angry or frustrated would people be seeing the sky blue most of the time. It's actually during winter when you get a worse mood because the sky is white-grayish and most of the time cloudy.
    Note that humans aren't quite genetically rats.

    In the current context, it's subjective with some spice of objectiveness related to player colours not being properly seen on some tiles but there are green player colours too. In 1v1 (blue vs red), sure, but that's BlizzEnt's fault that they couldn't properly differentiate player colours on minimap from some tiles. Also, there's the that option where you can see any enemy red and ally teal. Moreover on snow, your units might be hard to see at times.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  12. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    I think you could have fixed most things if you took the time to playtest it

    I took the time for play testing, I had played my map many times,
    for the video I saw in twich it played somehow as I wanted.
    if you see my entry thread you will see screens in game
    but I did it against AI in normal because I am not that good playing,
    if you see my changelog , you will see I did updates of the map.

    Which is what i think meerel is looking at.


    I am not mind reader, I dont know what @Meerel wanted to say about my map.

    Theres also room for improvement concerning presentation.

    I dont understand what do you mean by presentation, enviroment?, what I wrote in the entry?

    he didnt review all the maps, just half maps, so give him time.
     
  13. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    By presentation i mean the map submission.
    Screenshots, text format.
    I think screenshots are the most important.
     
  14. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    I submited like 20 screenshots, you 9, Mr.Henci 5 screenshots

    I do not understand , seriously.
     
  15. Meerel

    Meerel

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    sorry if anyone got offended but thats just my opinion. and im not a judge so it doesnt really matter.

    everyone can post reviews if they want, so go ahead. Stairs of Destiny will get one aswell ragnaros :)
     
  16. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.
    Twenty screenshots might even be too much.

    [​IMG]

    The overview is the most important screenshot.
    If you look at this screenshot i can hardly tell where it's possible to walk or whats going on the map.
    You didn't disable "info display" either which makes pathing blockers show up.
    You should tilt the camera so we get a sense of perspective and it helps clarify different heights on the map as well, if you use any cliff differences.
    The terrain is also blends too well or has too much detail which creates visual clutter, which has more to do with the nature of Outland being a bad tileset, but anyway.
     
  17. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    I can take multiple screenshots, and then join them in one to improve detail, that info helps me.


    edit: I have to say that my pc is small with small prospects (my good pc died) so it has low resolution, I cant take that good screens as before, I did this cutting pasting but it has some screws, make like 16 screens fit is not easy.


    just to be clear I never stated that I was offended,
    and I am not, I dont mind negative comments,
    I am somehow perfectionist and when I screw , I never forget it.
    but If I am going to receive the worst score of (6 acording to your score sys), I think is fair if I ask why.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  18. sentrywiz

    sentrywiz

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    See, for example, you gave a lot of feedback regarding Bandit City and even went
    really micro into it, with creep placements, what it reminds you, what should/shouldn't be there.

    Same for Forgotten Halls and others.

    But for some maps, like Rag's, you just said "idk". Why bother even to say that?
    You contributed nothing with that statement, you just made it sound like not worth your time.

    Well technically @Meerel didn't review your map, just said idk.
    At this point, that's the review.

    You did however explain your thoughts with a million words.
    As a constructive criticism. Also @deepstrasz helped with the case.

    I wouldn't say to someone "that tileset is shit, never use it ever"
    I'll describe why I think its shit, but mocking their choice is like mocking them.
    That's why I'm slightly offended by @Meerel's choice of words.

    @Meerel - What king and what country? Map is suck. Stupid name.
    Never use it again. There, I reviewed your map. Super helpful right?
     
  19. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    calm down, we were all talking nicely, they stated their opinions nicely, I responded cold
    and respectfully I stated my opinion.

    no need to anger and launch bad words, seriously, your post is flamming and aggresive,
    and never respond agresion with more agresion, is just bad.

    @sentrywiz
    he said he will review my map, and also apologyced, so I dont see what the problem

    really your flamming may end in that public feedback of maps will be cut, and we will have to wait boring and silent until results, in previous contest in the poll there was feedback and talking and everything nice,

    and I really dont mind if they dont like Outland tiles, really I am ok with it , next time I want to use Lordaeron summer, did a LS map and I kinda like that tiles.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  20. sentrywiz

    sentrywiz

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    Ok, my intent isn't to beat @Meerel down, just pointing out
    some silly arguments and why its not good to use them.
    Even provide a stupid example.

    And this isn't all about you. @Meerel is eventually gonna look at my map too.
    It would be nice to get a well worded criticism, one based on objective choice
    and personal freedom. Saying your map is bad is aggressive and flammable
    judgement based on subjective dislike. And that's not helpful if there's only subjective.

    Sorry if I'm disrespectful towards any of you. I respect making maps and map makers a lot,
    even if I completely hate their maps. And even if you hate all of my maps.
     
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