Hive Cup 2020: Melee Mapping Contest #6

Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
Another way to enter the other side, besides the Eternal Brigde, is to take this Way Gate across time and space, to another dimension.

There are Way Gates on both sides of the map, which takes the player to a third "island". From here players can walk across and enter the other Way Gate to the opponents land.

The question is, this third island should be worth fightning for and control. So my question is. What is worth fightning for? Gold Mine, Hero Tavern or a Fountain of Mana. Or Creeps that drop unique loot.

View attachment 362299



upload_2020-8-19_19-37-51.png



@Archian, hey !, about your map, if you go to advanced, view entire map you can take a screen of all the map,
because is hard to give you feedback (about the third island to contest), when me or we, cant see the entire picture of the map
bases, goblin shops, tavern, gob labs, merc. camps, paths and creep routes.
 
Level 22
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
3,414
Another way to enter the other side, besides the Eternal Brigde, is to take this Way Gate across time and space, to another dimension.

There are Way Gates on both sides of the map, which takes the player to a third "island". From here players can walk across and enter the other Way Gate to the opponents land.

The question is, this third island should be worth fightning for and control. So my question is. What is worth fightning for? Gold Mine, Hero Tavern or a Fountain of Mana. Or Creeps that drop unique loot.

View attachment 362299
Hero Tavern needs to be easy to access (see any current ladder map), and again be careful about fountains of mana. Locking a gold mine (i.e. expo) behind a way gate sounds potentially scary as well, but hopefully we'll live to see. :)
 
Level 22
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,557
Gold coins drop 250 gold which is the equivalent of a level 2-3 item drop i think.
It's not bad, but it's not as fun as just having item drops.
If you get a gold drop you'll probably just use it for expo/tech anyway, so it doesn't add much of a meaningful choice.
Part of what makes item drops more fun is the RNG element of getting the perfect drop.
 

Archian

Site Director
Level 43
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
2,192
lv8 item in 1v1 melee, isn't that broken?
Well, level 8 items are Crown of Kings, Mask of Death and Tome of Power. If those are broken in 1v1 melee, perhaps a level 7 item? The creep that drops the item will be level 10. The risk should match the reward.

Right now, there's a Gold Mine on the island (Vault). And several Kobold Creep Camps, which drop gold (2000 gold if you kill them all). But I'm still not sure if there should only be creeps or a passive building there as well.

Here's a view of the entire map. (still a work in progess)

entiremap.jpg
 
Level 22
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
3,414
Well, level 8 items are Crown of Kings, Mask of Death and Tome of Power. If those are broken in 1v1 melee, perhaps a level 7 item? The creep that drops the item will be level 10. The risk should match the reward.

Right now, there's a Gold Mine on the island (Vault). And several Kobold Creep Camps, which drop gold (2000 gold if you kill them all). But I'm still not sure if there should only be creeps or a passive building there as well.

Here's a view of the entire map. (still a work in progess)

View attachment 362336
Nice. What is the rush distance between the two players? I ask because it looks a bit distant but my eyes could be deceiving me.
Another point is that I assume all buildings will get the Outland ground texture which might look a bit funny on the green side?
 
Level 11
Joined
Jan 4, 2020
Messages
183
Well, level 8 items are Crown of Kings, Mask of Death and Tome of Power. If those are broken in 1v1 melee, perhaps a level 7 item? The creep that drops the item will be level 10. The risk should match the reward.

Right now, there's a Gold Mine on the island (Vault). And several Kobold Creep Camps, which drop gold (2000 gold if you kill them all). But I'm still not sure if there should only be creeps or a passive building there as well.

Here's a view of the entire map. (still a work in progess)

View attachment 362336

I will try not to say negative things here...
but from what I see here, isn't glab and gobm are too safe? And the way you can level up without being worry of an enemy.
MF will change this game into an OTK, think this way. if enemy can control MF on your side and did destroy your expansion camp he or she can camp there forever in front of your base and build their shop next to it. You will never have a chance to stand up again. I feel like the map style didn't suited the ladder. I feel like looking at battleground map. I will stop this right here, let see other view. I didn't argue though just mention what I see here.
 

Archian

Site Director
Level 43
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
2,192
Why mention "negative"? Try constructive criticism instead ;)

Well, it's kind of the idea to have your own "lands" you have to defend. The other player can of course "invade" your lands early on as with any other melee map.

There are no Fountain of Mana. Right now, there are two Fountain of Health on both sides of the map. This is subject to change. It might end up becoming a Tavern.

Thanks for the feedback!
 
Level 11
Joined
Jan 4, 2020
Messages
183
Why mention "negative"? Try constructive criticism instead ;)

Well, it's kind of the idea to have your own "lands" you have to defend. The other player can of course "invade" your lands early on as with any other melee map.

There are no Fountain of Mana. Right now, there are two Fountain of Health on both sides of the map. This is subject to change. It might end up becoming a Tavern.

Thanks for the feedback!
I don't know much english vocab dude sorry.
 
Level 18
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
62
@Archian u rly need to check out the current ladder maps and try to mimic it more. There are several thing a meleemap has to forfill. The highest drop ist normaly lvl 5 Permanet. 5charged and 6 are already a bit controversial.
Having only 1 smal bridge to get to ur oppenent is also no rly a good idea in 1vs1

So i did say it already to many mappers in reviews and cuz noone wins anyithing rly and i just want to have realy good maps i say this:

certain creeps and abilities do not work in 1vs1. Check wich work and rly use your brain IF u want introduce a new one.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
@Archian u rly need to check out the current ladder maps and try to mimic it more. There are several thing a meleemap has to forfill. The highest drop ist normaly lvl 5 Permanet. 5charged and 6 are already a bit controversial.
Having only 1 smal bridge to get to ur oppenent is also no rly a good idea in 1vs1


Well, agree of course, I think the idea can be saved and actually become a good melee map.
(I never did a good 1v1 so, who I am to say that)

I know ;)

I'm just waiting to show that until I have the layout ready.

upload_2020-8-20_10-29-12.png


add paths where I marked the yellow bridges, so players can have manuver
where there are fountains, there can be unguarded taverns IMO
 
Last edited:

Archian

Site Director
Level 43
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
2,192
Thanks for the feedback folks. It’s much appreciated.

@Archian u rly need to check out the current ladder maps and try to mimic it more. There are several thing a meleemap has to forfill. The highest drop ist normaly lvl 5 Permanet. 5charged and 6 are already a bit controversial.
Having only 1 smal bridge to get to ur oppenent is also no rly a good idea in 1vs1

Oh, and I don’t like mimicking other peoples melee maps. I wanted to do something more unique :) but I’m always willing to try out new ideas.

Also, please edit your post instead of multi posting.

Nice. What is the rush distance between the two players? I ask because it looks a bit distant but my eyes could be deceiving me.
Another point is that I assume all buildings will get the Outland ground texture which might look a bit funny on the green side?
It’s acceptable I think. Not too far not too close.

Yeah, but I can’t edit the object data. Otherwise it’s not considered a melee map I’m afraid.

however, it doesn’t look as bad as you’d think.

Are Way Gates usually protected by Creeps?

Anyway, here's the Vault. The Doom Guard will drop a random level 5 item. And the Kobolds will drop gold with a small chance for a random level 2-3 item.

thevault.jpg


Here's the latest map layout. (still WIP)
maplatout.png
 
Last edited:
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
Thanks for the feedback folks. It’s much appreciated.



Oh, and I don’t like mimicking other peoples melee maps. I wanted to do something more unique :) but I’m always willing to try out new ideas.

Also, please edit your post instead of multi posting.


It’s acceptable I think. Not too far not too close.

Yeah, but I can’t edit the object data. Otherwise it’s not considered a melee map I’m afraid.

however, it doesn’t look as bad as you’d think.

Are Way Gates usually protected by Creeps?

Anyway, here's the Vault. The Doom Guard will drop a random level 5 item. And the Kobolds will drop gold with a small chance for a random level 2-3 item.

View attachment 362407

Here's the latest map layout. (still WIP)
View attachment 362424

waygates when used , they are unguarded like taverns
because creeps can follow you and use the waygates and that tends to be... chaotic
 
Level 22
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
3,414
Here's the latest map layout. (still WIP)
The tavern additions are a great improvement in my opinion. A few points still:
  • The expansions are very walled off, naturally might be that they will be too easy defend/too hard to punish?
  • There are still a number of relatively claustrophobic areas (labs, merchants and expo sites) which could benefit from an additional point of entry.
  • There being only one way to cross "the middle" could be problematic in regards to balance, but I understand this is also very important thematically for the map. I suppose the way gates and air units offer alternate routes if nothing else.
 
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
Hey guys!

I wont say I finished, because there is always something to add, modify, test, re-test.
but now I feel my entry can have a better look

if someone wants to give me feedback (would be great), well the only thing I could offer as exchange is feedback as mapper
(I am used to be silent or have a lot of caution regarding offer feedback, because I am no pro-player, so there is a lot of info I got from others and not from playing or seeing pro-gameplays)

Savage Coast
 

Archian

Site Director
Level 43
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
2,192
Increased the pathing several places on the map (to avoid tight spaces). Added a second way to enter the other side.

Map now contains a Fountain of Mana (guarded by level 8-10 creatuers that never sleeps) And I'm also strongly considering adding two Fountain of Health on both sides. This should incease the mayhem and urge to attack!

However, I will do some more testing.


WIP screenshot.

MF.jpg


NEW map layout.

maplatout.png
 
Last edited:
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
Increased the pathing several places on the map (to avoid tight spaces). Added a second way to enter the other side.

Map now contains a Fountain of Mana (guarded by level 8-10 creatuers that never sleeps) And I'm also strongly considering adding two Fountain of Health on both sides. This should incease the mayhem and urge to attack!

However, I will do some more testing.


WIP screenshot.

View attachment 362560

NEW map layout.

View attachment 362562

I really like your enthusiasm and keeping this thread interesting, I hope you are having fun mapping.

Official WIP:
View attachment 362564

Yeah.... I've turned to the green side.

Because the green side of the force is a path to many skills that are considered unnatural.
mafe is here, the calvary has arrived! our melee savior has arrived!
interesting the map will have multiple spawn options.

on my side, emm well , mafe, Kaer and Savehighking, fellow participants helped me a lot with my entry, so I wanted to write here thanks a lot to them
I did quite many changes in the creeping route and how the game is played.
I will still do some beta-test and maybe do some more polish here and there
good luck guys keep it up!

Savage Coast
 
Last edited:
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
@Mythic

I would like to discart my current entry and start over.
Reason: it has 1 mayor game-killer problem wich will make it non-playable.
I also seek a better theme for the map, more focused.

WIP 1
Map Name: Twelve Temples
Tile-set: a 3 mix of City-scape, Ashenvale and sunken ruins.



upload_2020-8-26_20-52-7.png


upload_2020-8-26_20-53-5.png


 
Level 22
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
3,414
We should try to organize a testing session for the entries after the contest has concluded to give people a proper chance to test the map and provide feedback to the authors. Or we can all play against the AI, I suppose, but it will not give a proper sense of the balance etc.
 
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
We should try to organize a testing session for the entries after the contest has concluded to give people a proper chance to test the map and provide feedback to the authors. Or we can all play against the AI, I suppose, but it will not give a proper sense of the balance etc.

between the contest end + poll and the results, there is a gap of time. It could be interesting to see some gameplays to fill that time.
or if gameplays are not posible, some youtube map editor reviews could also be interesting to watch
usually during the poll players give some feedback regarding their top 5 entries.


upload_2020-8-27_8-10-50.png

upload_2020-8-27_8-11-24.png

 
Level 22
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
3,414
between the contest end + poll and the results, there is a gap of time. It could be interesting to see some gameplays to fill that time.
or if gameplays are not posible, some youtube map editor reviews could also be interesting to watch
usually during the poll players give some feedback regarding their top 5 entries.

I was simply thinking that if 4 people are testing the maps vs AI by themselves it could be more fun/better for these same people to test among one another, oh well.

Regarding your wip: I can't really see that all well what each neutral building is, but I think I see roosts?
 
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
I was simply thinking that if 4 people are testing the maps vs AI by themselves it could be more fun/better for these same people to test among one another, oh well.

Regarding your wip: I can't really see that all well what each neutral building is, but I think I see roosts?

no, no dragon roost, I am not drunk yet.

2 mercs, 2 shops, 2 marketplaces, 2 gob labs


upload_2020-8-27_9-9-55.png

upload_2020-8-27_9-10-33.png

upload_2020-8-27_9-10-59.png



Made a layout.

clever design with the green going near the center for tavern hero, and creep hack chance.
 
Level 9
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
33
@Mythic
Very unique layout, looks promising. Not a fan of the Merccamp in front of Lab, though. And there are too many red spots overall. One goldmine should be lvl 11-15 so that it's viable for early/midgame expansions. Having two lategame expansions per player is pointless. Also, fountains (especially mana) probably need a balance patch from Blizzard before becoming viable. But then, your map shoould be in a strong place.

@WolfFarkas
Your mapping skills improve at a fast pace. This layout is already much better than your last draft. Keep it up.


@both
Keep in mind that there has never been a competitive map featuring that many neutral buildings. All existing competitive maps feature Tavern + Shop + max. two of Lab/Merccamp/Marketplace/health fountain. I'm not entirely sure if there just never happened to be a great map that features more neutral buildings or if it is due to balance reasons. Featuring that many neutral buildings provides some races infinite possibilities to cover up for their weaknesses, while race weaknesses are a fundamental part of game design. If a race has no weakness, it becomes unbeatable.

Consider the matchup Human vs. Orc on a map with all neutral buildings.
Earlygame: Human can fast expand and buy troll berserkers and priests to improve their weak footy only t1 army. Orc doesn't really benefit from Mercs (despite troll priests for dispell, but that's generally not enough of a reason to creep a Merccamp themselves).
Midgame: Human can buy a shredder to never have lumber issues again and a zeppelin to lame and force their opponent into building anti-air. Orc has no lumber issues with 12 peon tech and zeppelin against lvl 2 water elementals is meh.
Lategame: Human can buy movementspeed auras in the Marketplace. Orc already has one.

So, what would be the appropriate timing for Orc to win the game if Human benefits from different neutral buildings in every stage of the game?
 
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
@Mythic
Very unique layout, looks promising. Not a fan of the Merccamp in front of Lab, though. And there are too many red spots overall. One goldmine should be lvl 11-15 so that it's viable for early/midgame expansions. Having two lategame expansions per player is pointless. Also, fountains (especially mana) probably need a balance patch from Blizzard before becoming viable. But then, your map shoould be in a strong place.

@WolfFarkas
Your mapping skills improve at a fast pace. This layout is already much better than your last draft. Keep it up.


@both
Keep in mind that there has never been a competitive map featuring that many neutral buildings. All existing competitive maps feature Tavern + Shop + max. two of Lab/Merccamp/Marketplace/health fountain. I'm not entirely sure if there just never happened to be a great map that features more neutral buildings or if it is due to balance reasons. Featuring that many neutral buildings provides some races infinite possibilities to cover up for their weaknesses, while race weaknesses are a fundamental part of game design. If a race has no weakness, it becomes unbeatable.

Consider the matchup Human vs. Orc on a map with all neutral buildings.
Earlygame: Human can fast expand and buy troll berserkers and priests to improve their weak footy only t1 army. Orc doesn't really benefit from Mercs (despite troll priests for dispell, but that's generally not enough of a reason to creep a Merccamp themselves).
Midgame: Human can buy a shredder to never have lumber issues again and a zeppelin to lame and force their opponent into building anti-air. Orc has no lumber issues with 12 peon tech and zeppelin against lvl 2 water elementals is meh.
Lategame: Human can buy movementspeed auras in the Marketplace. Orc already has one.

So, what would be the appropriate timing for Orc to win the game if Human benefits from different neutral buildings in every stage of the game?

I regret to inform that the Tsunamis swallowed my marketplaces in the shore. so they are no more.


thanks a lot for both pro feedback and kind words

@Mythic

Twelve Temples

I am linking my entry for the contest, I have pending the beta test, and maybe a small last polish

i will play some and let play some games with the rbtv guys on the maps i think are worth the time when i do the reviews. I can maybe provide replays



Any chance of screen recording and youtube uploading? (sometimes may happen to be incompatibility in replays files) The NHC Debut Video Recorder is a great wonder even for very slow pcs.
 
Level 22
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,537
@Lors Andrew BlackHarris i dont think this map is fit for 1vs1 melee i would not know how to review it

@Mythic

IMO, it doesnt fit the current theme of the contest wich is 1v1. You may have a map with 3-6 players players multiple spawn option like Twisted Meadow, but 256x256 is not a size for a 1v1.

i with my map: Ultima Guerra -Ultimate war!

a 1v1 map size should go from mmm. 80x80 (example Amazonia) to 150x150(max, Starfish Village, multi-spawn map)
 
Last edited:
Level 9
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
33
I am a little , how is the word, interested if the orange creep is ment for Age of War Ne creep spot?

View attachment 363177

AOW- or Militiacreeping at the orange spot is possible, but would be quite risky if scouted due to the proximity to the opponents base. The most common first creepspot would be one of the greens next to the base with lvl 9 total level and lvl 2 permanent itemdrop similiar to many other maps like LR, NI, etc.
 
Top