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Discussion in 'Latest Updates and News' started by Archian, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. MasterHaosis

    MasterHaosis

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    @MasterBlaster thank you sir for good conversations and some good points. + rep for you

    No. I just think that they overestimated themselves and that they are greedy which they showed few times regarding Reforged.

    I know this of course. But Blizzard is not company. They are corporation! We are not talking about you, me, and some individual or small company to make statements such as ,,hey he mistaken/development reasons/changing plans/ etc... we are talking about someone whose is billionaire. People should always know this and be harsh to corporations because they earn huge money, often from hoaxes. And they often get free from it, because obviosly people rarely charge them for false advertisements and such.

    ,,we probably should agree to disagree"
    With all due respect sir, you are wrong here. We can agree or disagree for example that man can live forever, that 5+5=11, that planet is center of universe just like in middle age, but our agreeing or disagreeing wont change fact that people eventually die (at max after 100 years and some), that 5 and 5 are 10 and that our planet rotates around sun. There are opinions and there are facts. You learned that in school and real life, what is categorized under opinion (color, clothes and everything matters of taste), but some stuff are just fact. As fact is that they accepted money for stuff they marketed and turned out to be false advertisement. This is crime/felony whatever is called in any reasonable countries and is punished. But of course this wont happen here.

    ,,consensus in that matter as it is one based on personal beliefs, not rational arguments."
    So, personnel belief is that they accepted money for product they marketed. I think that this is proven as fact, which you confirmed yourself here in next quote

    Exactly! I apologize if I sounded wrong or you could not understand me, but this is what I tried to write as main problem of all problems here.
    They described product as it is, and it stays even now at official site, then later they said that many stuff wont be there. BUT MEANWHILE THEY ACCEPTED MONEY! There is no arguing over that. This happened and that is clear as day.
    Now we can have personnel opinions and beliefs what should happen next, why did that happen and such.
    My belief is that they are greedy as any corporation. You can agree or not with that, even not, you may be right.
    But this is my opinion:
    Since this happened, they had two choices>
    Choice 1: They could still finish all promised until 31. december by hiring much more people. They wont (because it will affect their money of course), which proves that they are greedy.
    Choice 2: because of incomplete game (to what previous was advertized) they should decrease price for game. They still did not do it, so they think that it is worth same price as before (even without big expensive features like cutscenes which cost greatly to justify that price). In fact they did not even apologized properly for it.
    In fact people like you do not push them hard to learn that they have responsibility to customers.

    So, I am not even arguing with you here on this one. I just want to explain you this thing:
    We agreed here on this one. Okay, so whats next? Thats right nothing. They wont get punished for it, nothing happened. They would return money to disappointing people and continue with bad behaviors (as they did before, but this one is just disgusting, I think worse what they could do so far, but correct me please if I am wrong as I do not know what happens to other games under Blizzard now).
    What would I do if I am in charge is that now I would go there, punish them so much for this crap that they would hardly recover from it, so they would think next time twice before accepting money from people for incomplete product. Believe it or not, but even during 90s when my country was under inflation, wars and such, when we were shithole country, my grandfather purchased car which was advertised from factory directly. And they gave him cheaper and weaker version for same price. He sued them and won! In failed country this worked, can you imagined me seeing this in late 2019!!!!! Only difference is that Blizzard gives you option to get back money, but I believe that they should not have option to accept money for product which is far different from what they promoted.


    I believe you. I cannot argue with you even if I wish, because I have moral obligation to note that I do not play Diablo and other games besides Wc3, and aside from what happens with Reforged, I cannot make assumptions or argue about anything else, but to accept what I am told.

    You have point here completely.

    I do not think that you are also right here, but I may be wrong. First because you have no evidence or proof or anything that we should set up as ,,enough or sufficient" numbers of customers to base our opinions or not. When you sell 100 products, and now your remaster or whatever sells 80, then you obviously lose 20 customers. But even here with precise statistics you cannot determine how many potential customers you lose.
    here I trust you more than Blizzard, in fact I do not trust them before this at all. I wait and see, no more promises. But all we have is what they believe, expect or what to be ,,sufficient".
    I am not maybe right, but at least partially or for good part of this I have point. here is why,
    In my country we have sentence ,,Good voice is heard loudly, but bad voice is much louder", which literally means that when someone does something good (good to humanity, anyone) it travels and affects some people. But when someone does bad things (crime or such), as worse it travels far more and affects much more people, to bad scale. So, it is not fair that we make assumptions that they lose certain numbers of people when I read in official forums that Blizzard got bashed lot, many angry users, and in many places worldwide. Its not definitively small amount of people.
    Another thing is my surroundings. In past, my friends and I were fans of WC, some more, some less, (beside for comamnd and conquer) we were almost daily to play both C&C and Wc3 in net coffees/game rooms for hours. Believe me or not, but now I cannot get single person who is interested in Reforged. For two reasons: Either lost interested in Wc3 at all or because of craps what they did recently. People do not know much about reforged, but they already heard about ,,false advertisements" and angry users regarding patches and such. Last night I had conversations with few of them, and I repeat, I cannot get single person to be interested in this. And you think that I am negative towards it? No in fact I want this game to success. I want us to play again, to see new models, to test stuff, to bring partially back. But nobody is interested, and some are disappointing. Only one man I know to be interested in reforged, but even he did not bought it, he got gift from his brother from Vienna. I have two cousins only whose play WOW and played Heroes of the storm. One is not interested and another one said he will consider if he will ever buy it. So overally from my surroundings, people i know, only one has Reforged (which got as gift) and another one said he will consider.
    But again, this may be exeption and not real status of popularity overally. However I am 100% sure that it is not small amount of people.


    No, I did not notice it, or did not pay attention honestly so I can agree here with you.

    And someone should fired lawsuit as I already wrote. And this should be in main gaming news worldwide as HOAX with big letters as example to other companies to never do similar again.
    But yes, I heard that too lot here in Hive. I cannot even name people being disappointing and offended by this because there are many of them.

    I can agree you here as well although it is questionable because I saw many people claiming that they preordered it mostly because cutscenes.
    For me personally, again, I did not expect anything more from them. I just expect redesigned models and new models for campaign units and campaigns and thats it. As bonus I was happy with cutscenes! But I was shocked to hear that this is not going to happen in final version especially after they started accepting money for promised things.

    Oh tell me according to you, whose fault is for this crap (in company)?
     
  2. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    [Feedback] Request Features for JASS and the World Editor

    In addition:
    • the crown of Inner Fire is too small and generally the FX discoloured.
    • Slow has to be more visible and it should be more towards the legs.
    • the target should start becoming invisible when the Invisibility FX starts otherwise it looks as if the unit becomes invisible by itself, suddenly. There needs to be a smooth transition. It looks nicer in the original right now.
    • you can see the polymorphed creature before the FX fades, actually kind of from the start. That should not be.
    • the new Curse FX is meh, less distinguishable.
    • Spell Steal FX is superfluous and lasts too long.
    • the new Cloud FX is lovely although too big for the AoE? Did you guys make the FX automatically scale depending on that?
    • the only thing to mention about Holy Light is that it doesn't have a "rune" on the FX anymore. Resurrection has though and now it's more visible.
    • not only the targets but also what is behind them cannot be seen anymore temporarily due to Resurrection's cluttered FX. The angel is not a spirit anymore.
    • I think the issue with Storm Bolt's projectile is that it comes too fast not necessarily from the hand holding the axe. Apparently the Stunned buff isn't triggered anymore if the target dies.
    • they still have to fix the lag Thunder Clap brings. Maybe War Stomp also has it. Also, the melee Mountain King's face looks like a rat's.
    • yeah, why does the Blood Mage bow when spell casting? Actually, it's almost like the Mohammedan prayer position.
    • Banish targets should become transparent, smoothly as the FX progresses upward. It doesn't make sense for the Blood Mage to go down like that after the spell was already cast; its projectile hit the target.
    • actually Drain Mana's target FX is too low at least on the Banshee in the video. Maybe, there's some issue with model attachment points. And because the mage squats over and over, the lightning FX is still between the caster and target FX, it does not move dynamically with the mage's spasmodic animation.
    • to be honest, I like the Pheonix even without that fiery aura. It's another take on the concept. Anyway, something like that could be added easily afterwards for custom games if some don't like the current concept.
     
  3. Venombite

    Venombite

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    Acctually it's not an angel. It's a Valarjar (golden) Val'kyr from WoW (Legion). It made total sense when they were going to WoW-ify the game and story. Now though it doesn't really, but they kept it anyway.
    Ah well, I guess it's a memento, one of many, of a time when they had big plans for the game, what can you do. :(
     
  4. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    It does make sense. Angels are mentioned in Warcraft: Orcs & Humans' manual.
     
  5. Venombite

    Venombite

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    They are called Kyrians now, lol. And the Val'kyr arn't really angels but something between angels and vrykul(prehistoric humans). And not even Vrykul, let alone Val'kyr are even mentioned in Wc3 or anywhere before WotLK(they are a retcon). The vrykul were obviously planed to appear in Wc3 Reforged, cause the bandits look a lot like them, but were probably cut by now.
     
  6. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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  7. pusha1999

    pusha1999

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    Jass in WE still the same like in old WC?
     
  8. MasterHaosis

    MasterHaosis

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    And when are famous Night Elves coming out? I think only they are missed
     
  9. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    You too! I always appreciate a nice, civil discussion :) Especially with a fellow "Master" :D

    I agree that there's a possibility that they've overestimated their capabilities, sure. Perhaps they run out of budget, or perhaps they just realized they can't make it in time or maybe for whatever reason they've thought that it's a right choice - we'll never know.

    Ultimately, what you've said here kinda confirms my point - if they overestimated their capabilities, it's logical that at some point they had to believe that their plans were achievable and thus there is a possibility that what was announced last year was a pretty genuine feature list that they were aiming for.

    Two things I'd like to touch up on here:

    1) Yes, they're a corporation and as such, the developers don't really have a say in certain matters. Things like budget or release window are probably decided by corporate higher ups, not the devs themselves. My point here is - if we're going to be angry at someone, let's be angry at the higher corporate structure, not ground level people who are probably trying their best and who likely believed they could realize all their announced features, but just didn't manage to make it within the given time frame or budget.

    2) As a side note, I've read a bit about software development and one of the most common misconceptions is that throwing more money or manpower at a product will always make it come out faster or be better. It's not true. There comes a point where adding more developers to a project actually makes things worse. I'm not saying that this is what happened to Reforged as it is probably a pretty small team, so maybe they could afford to expand, but - once again - we can't really say.

    My point here is - we don't know what happened. I believe that they've wanted to do more, but something went wrong along the way. It happens and I'm not going to hold it against them, no matter how disappointed I might be with certain things. The only "bad" thing I see here is the whole prepurchase thing, which I will elaborate further on in a moment.

    A fact is something that is confirmed and as it stands, we don't know what was the reason why they've decided to change their approach to Reforged - thus, all we have on the matter are opinions. I've assumed that you suspect that they've lied or otherwise purposefully mismarketed their game and I think that they didn't. This is the part that I've said we can agree to disagree on, unlike...

    This part, which is obviously a fact. What I'd like to add here, prepurchases are generally a very problematic issue across the entire industry. There are many games that offer the ability to prepurchase way too early, before the company can state with a reasonable certainty that what they're offering is what they're going to deliver. This is something that, in my personal opinion, should be more precisely regulated by law as - like you've put it - it's simply misleading advertisement.

    As noted above, I've meant that personal opinion is if and what went wrong with Reforged's development and why certain things have changed, not the fact that they've sold people a product that as far as we know they aren't going to deliver.

    Ultimately - I think we agree regarding the crux of the issue. The problem isn't that things changed, the problem is that they've changed after they've started selling the product. This sucks and I totally agree that it should not have happened. As for why it happened? Honestly, I have no idea. All I believe in is that when they've announced Reforged, they were honest and serious about the features they've revealed and then... something just went wrong. Was it corporate greed, running out of time, a shift in their development vision or something else? It's hard to say.

    Perhaps you are correct, but as I've said above, it's not true that adding more people to a project always increases efficiency and while I doubt it, perhaps their team is already of optimal size and adding more people wouldn't really help? Besides, increasing the number of developers takes time, both to complete the hiring process and introduce the new people to the job. It's possible that when they've realized things weren't going as planned, they didn't have that time to spare.

    My personal opinion is that the amount of devs wasn't really an issue - I'm more inclined to believe that the problem was the deadline. If anything, I think the best solution would have been to just delay the game by a few months. Yes, it would still suck, but I think many - including myself - wouldn't mind waiting a little more if the end result was product of a higher quality.

    Decreasing the price of a product that you're already selling is problematic, because there's always a question of how you handle reimbursing people who already made a purchase. The easiest way would be to add the difference in price as Battle.net balance, but then again - many people would probably prefer cash and doing that isn't as simple as it sounds, both practically and legally.

    My personal opinion is that the biggest blunder they made was skirting around the issue, i.e. not openly announcing that some things have changed. I mean, we still don't really know what changed and what we do know, we had to stitch together from a bunch of interviews and Blizzcon attendees - often with somewhat conflicting reports. This is a problem, because - let's face it - not a lot of people will see that kind of news, i.e. there's still likely a lot of people who fully expect the style of cutscenes like in the last year's demo. They're the ones that are going to be shafted the most.

    What I think should have happened - assuming they wanted to release this year and had to cut some things - is that they should have released an updated trailer with some developers going over what has changed and why. And then just leave it to people to decide if they like the new style and if they want to ask for a refund.

    Nothing will happen. They will release the game by the end of the year, some people will be disappointed and might be more skeptical of buying more games from Blizzard, but it's not going to be a big deal, because at the end of the day Reforged most likely isn't a particularly big project, especially compared to their other ones.

    There's probably no way to do it in accordance to the standing law. The worst that can happen is that someone will sue them, which is by itself rather unlikely and even if it happens, chances are that it will fail, because a single person will have a hard time going against a corporate legal team that likely covered their asses beforehand.

    I don't think it's that easy, because unlike the example you've provided - modern corporations are much more clever in abusing law. If you read their EULAs or other legal documents, they are very careful to cover their asses on every front. Sure, selling a product based on misleading advertisement isn't "just", but all it takes is some clause that says that "by making a prepurchase, the user acknowledges and accepts that the final product might be different from what was originally announced" and they're golden in court.

    Obviously we don't have any data, but rest assured that Blizzard has done an extensive market research and if they've decided on a certain course of actions, it was backed by the numbers. For example, if they chose to cut RoC multiplayer, it's reasonable to assume that they didn't think that the amount of people who would be pissed off by that was significant enough to make a different decision. What I'm getting at here is that while we can for the most part only speculate, Blizzard has the numbers and has likely done a fair amount of market research before they've started working on Reforged. Thus, the fact that they don't seem to care about certain things indicates that these things aren't as impactful as we might think. Simply put, there's likely not enough people interested in RoC multiplayer or negatively affected by recent buggy patches, especially compared to their sales goal, to matter.

    That's not really true - obviously, you can't precisely predict how well your product will sell, but they definetely have ways of figuring out a realistic goal that they can compare other numbers to. And that's what they're most likely doing.

    This is, to some extent, true, but... in order for the good or bad voice to travel, it has to have an appropriate medium. Like, if someone says good things about a product on TV, he's going to have a lot more reach than someone sharing a negative opinion to his friends.

    First of all, people who browse the forums are most likely a very tiny portion of their overall consumer base. Like, look at WoW - it probably still has millions of players, either active or taking a break, and there are only maybe a couple of hundred or a thousand people posting on their official forums. That's not a lot. So even though Blizzard getting heat on forums or fansites might seem serious, it probably isn't. What matters is broader PR, i.e. when gaming youtubers with millions of subs or big media outlets start covering a topic, that's something that will reach a lot more of Blizzard's customers than a bunch of angry fans on the official forums.

    And like I've said earlier - if Reforged was to come out without campaigns, which likely are one of its biggest if not the biggest feature, that's something that would definetely attract some attention from these more influential PR tubes. That could hurt Blizzard. Meanwhile things like removing RoC multiplayer or buggy patches... sure, some people are going to get angry and come to the forums to vent, but ultimately even if there are thousands of said people, the reach of such negative PR is still fairly small, especially if you consider that they're likely aiming to sell a couple million copies.

    No offence, but unless you have tens of thousands of friends, the experience you described is still pretty insignificant due to how small the sample size is. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of people who were previously interested in Reforged, but for one reason or another aren't going to buy it, because there probably are. The question here is - are we even their target audience? I mean, perhaps they're not aiming to sell the game to the fans of the original, but to the more casual gaming crowd or people who actively play their other games like WoW. And if so, we don't really have a way of knowing how they are feeling.

    My personal stance on the topic is - I think that the recent news, both regarding Blizzard and Reforged, have certainly hurt their sales numbers, especially among more hardcore fans, though I don't think that the impact was particularly high. I believe Reforged will still sell quite well, though perhaps not so well as Blizzard expected. And that's a shame, because as I've said previously - I want Reforged to do well, because if it was a massive success it could sway Blizzard to try going for another RTS game, perhaps even Warcraft 4. And yes, I know W4 is rather unlikely, but - Blizzard is a corporation and their higher ups mostly care about the money, so if Reforged was able to bring a load of cash, they'd definetely see this as an opportunity.

    ---

    To summarize - I'm not happy about the preorder thing and I think that if there's some singular person to blame for that, it's probably some corporate higher up. I'm also not saying that I think our opinions don't matter or that there aren't a lot of people who are disappointed with Reforged. What I'm saying is that we should be more careful when trying to translate what we see on the forums or hear from our friends to how well Reforged might do, because while it is possible that it will not sell too well, there's also the possibility that we, i.e. people who are disappointed by one thing or another, are part of a vocal, but still a fairly small, minority.

    ---

    P.S. Night Elves should be coming next week, no idea when, but Tuesday or Wednesday seems like a pretty good bet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  10. Venombite

    Venombite

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    @MasterHaosis things you said would be mostly true, if there wasn't for one tiny detail. Yes, Blizzard is a large corporation. But Blizzard is currently struggling to survive. In the last 5+ years they've had only one successful game (Overwatch), and that's not enough for a large corporation to function properly. And sinse circa early 2019, even Overwatch starting to decline rapidly. This Blizzcon, to me, seems to be Blizzards last straw. They are basically trying to recover by releasing they're most succesful games, Overwatch 2 and Diablo 4, and are basically hoping to revive them. They know that WoW's golden era has passed and that the game will never be as successful as it was 10 years ago. Sure you can say that they have WoW Classic now, but they are aware that it's only temporary. Sure they'll release TBC and WotLK once all six Classic phases are out, but they know that they simply won't be able to keep all three of them running for more than three years. Sure you can say they have Hearthstone, but again that's just one mobile game, and I don't know if that's enough. Thing is that obviously (understandably) Overwatch 2 and Diablo 4 sucked in all the money the corporation could spare, and that's why other projects (*cough*Reforged*cough*) need to lower their budget. They can't afford to gamble, that much is certain.

    Saying that they are greedy, is just strange. What's the point of making the game for Blizzard? To earn money. In the end all that matters to the developer how much money they can earn, either by selling good or saving from the budget. Yes, people who pre-ordered have every right to asked for refund, cause they've benn played, but nobody else got hurt. Blizzard has every right to ask for any price they like for their product. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. I'm sure that Blizzard knows the price beyond which no one will by the game. In the end people vote for or against the game with their wallet.

    @MasterBlaster I agree that the corporation executives are to blame, and I blame them for 99,99% of things. However I blame the devs as well, for lying. Saying that the content got cut only cause of player feedback, is for me just shameful.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  11. MasterHaosis

    MasterHaosis

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    Hahaha! Two masters here. One of chaos, another of blasting! :cgrin:
    Another rep comming for you, sadly, I need to wait few more hours before ,,hitting" you again. its system's fault, not mine haha.
    But yeah, I like those civilized discussing because of age (I have 31 years in ass, and have no time and patience for senseless idiotic arguings like in ancient past) and because this is now serious matter, we people should stick together to see if we somehow can affect this all to be better as much as it can because it benefits community and keep it more alive.

    Well, I could not agree more on that. You blasted it nicely.


    Oh, I never mentioned and did not want to that we should blame all developers. Even if developers themselves made mistake, it is Blizzard's fault because they (men in charge) pay them, order them and overwatch them. Huge mistake just cannot be ignored. There is rare chance when both company and community says blue, developers for some reason convince company that red is better, and at the end it turns out that blue was better, red go disaster, then developers are to be blamed (again with both company as well because they got convinced).


    Oh, I heard it few times before that something happened behind scenes definitively. That was internal crap between themselves. But people deserve to know what happened.


    Yeah. However, I would not just ,,precisely regulate", but because of recent events I would consider to forbid prepurchase, since obviously companies like Blizzard are unable to control themselves and outcome (chaos they produce) within it.

    Well, of course, we agree here because this is all which sane person should say perhaps. Nobody would defend anyone taking money in advance for something which is not gong to happen that way, especially to defend corporation. I believe that single man can make accidentally mistake, but this big mistake by corporation should be sanctioned.

    Oh sorry, I spologise again, I write lot and sometimes forget to mention some thing specifically. Here i did not mean at developers at all. By ,,hiring more people" I meant those to make models and videos. There are tons of uneployed 3D artists around, even from this very website. You give them base concept, they make model. Thats it. More people work on, easier and faster. Of course more expensive. One team makes Gnolls for example, another one human spells, another one undead spells, another one make demons etc etc... Now perhaps limited team makes all.
    About videos. Hollywood movies are famous for CGI, which is warcraft made by whole. Any professional company can do this. They could hire more. Maybe I overestimated themselves too that they can finish all it now, but I am sure that it will got much faster, rapidly faster if more companies are hired regarding videos and models. Developers in general are different thing, as you pointed out, everything is correct. More hiring, explaining what to do, what is goal etc... But 4 hours until December 31, and especially about some more full working models is doable if they start from this or next week. Which is not going to happen obviously.


    Oh, well, I suppose that they should bring back money whose overpaid already then. Or something like that.

    Yes totally. I also heard that they were silent lot. For months, that we did not even know what is going to happen until recently. They should explain at least to community.

    Yeah, I totally forgot that dissapointed and skeptical will be moe cautious about any further Blizard game, because now we were talking about Reforged specially.

    Of course man, you are totally right, but to remind you one more thing. The fact s that you said they already ,,covered their asses and they are clever in abusing law" is automatically fact that they are doing something wrong. Why would you abuse law or cover ass if you are not guilty or doing something dirty anyway? So, conclusion is ....... something smells badly here :cgrin:

    Yes, I am not saying anything here. You are right. But something also smells wrong here. I asked friend of mine who is game developer (local company for mobile phones which is not related to this but still), and my fiance (whose is economist and works for company which researches, fixes and promotes gambling companies and sites and does CEO for them), both of them said that Blizzard here did badly job regarding developing/promoting this thing. But this is just opinion from people whose may but may not be right because their job is similar but slightly different that Blizzard. But from this point of view, it really looks like they did not investigate noting, but rushed game.

    of course. But I just meant if same news for example publishes ,,MasterHaosis got award for promoting environment, for helping sick childern etc..." many people will hear it but be Ok with it. But if same news publishes ,,MasterHaosis killed man, raped woman etc.." it will travel so far and be louader and people wont forget this fast as they forgot about good things written about me. it is in human nature especially recently that bad news are more valuable news. So, I would take care what ,,materials" I would give to public if I am at Blizzard's place and trz not to annoy fans (about fans and sites I will write further in Venombite's quote)

    Well, if we combine WOW and others, Reforged is small. But if we talk about Reforged as reforged, as single project and product, damage is being made. Also about fans, again, I will write further, not to repeat myself unecesserly.

    I completely agree.

    None taken good sir! We are just having conversation.

    Exactly, that is why I distanced myself with that. But just to note you that I have some friends. many people have their own friends too. So overally this can be large number, but we do not represent it and I cannot speak about others but surrounding which I know good. But whenever I came and travel here in this part of country, nobody even mentions Reforged. In this part of country is weak. In capital it is different I suppose it is more popular. But I know for much precise why is that. Three reasons: First, people here (especially in smaller parts around my city) do not want to spend 30$ for this game because of generally lower paid jobs they have. Second, they lost interested in Wc3 and third (for big part) they heard about Reforged problems and issues follows Blizzard which additionally brings ,,black on already dark background". But yes, we are insignificant to large scale, but still play game as any live person. Many from these parts around me are/were moderators here and users with lot experience, models etc etc... So although low in numbers, but strong individuals whose contributed to community, Blizzard should have at least little more respect. I am really sad that I cannot make more people from here to buy game t would be easier for me and for everyone but its not all my fault as Blizzard should also take care of its behavior and bad news which literally travels fast here.

    Oh, that too, I will reply later, in Venombite's quote.

    Yes, I completely agree. I am just sad that if they were better, Reforged would be sold much more.

    OH CORPORATE MAGGOT :cgrin:
    I totally agree too.

    This also counts as something what will I reply later, but to add you here, that in some aspects quantity does not mean quality. 5 people with very high speakers can be louder than 100 people yelling around as high they can :cgrin:
    That really depends of minority. If you mean (which I believe you do) about money, then you are right, that is fact. 1000 people bought 1000x30$ much more than 100 people logically. But if you think about reputation and some other aspects, this does not matter. For example, you know me, and i know you. I believe you more what you say and will rather talk to you than with 100 chineese WOW players whose are outside of this site. Their opinions does not matter here right now. They can be both biased or what, but your opinion matters, and your actions.


    yah I wait to see them. Although I think they should update more frequent things so we can follow progress.


    NOW VENOMBITE JOINED! :cgrin:
    Thank you man for your valued opinions.

    Well what you say I can agree only as I do not know about other games, although I would be glad to read what you and MasterBlaster have to say regarding this. As you read, he thinks that Reforged is small project comparing to thers.


    But this is not point here. I mean, you are right. This is also not opinion it is fact. Nobody can force anobody to buy game. If you do not like it, do not buy. This is written in any laws and there is no arguing over that, you completely nailed it.
    But let me straight something which you and MasterBlaster maybe forgot on moment.
    @MasterBlaster this is what I wanted to write regarding community and fans.

    See guys, in past, you bought WC3 ,,as is" there were not communities like this. They made game, we bought it, played it, internet forums arise, and hiveworkshop later. But if you liked game you bought it, told to friends, invite them, play together, all was simple.
    But now, it is different. Blizzardp ut this on themselves. They wanted to connect with communities, setting people to be ,,community managers" or such to be ,,in touch with company". They constantly bug people around world, communities, to test stuff for them, ask for opinions. You know that they in offical patch thanked directly retera and another one from here for solving some problems for them. Some people from here work there. it is Blizzard whose made moral obligation to communities. We test games for them, we test maps for them, we discuss for them. Look this very thread and others. People constantly report issues regarding models, stuff and such to them. And now they not legally but morally owe us explanations and at least to be reasonable.
    What did they do? They promised 4 hours of cutscenes and what else which is not going to happen. And as MasterBlaster pointed out, they constantly wrote contradictional statements so community does not even know where stand with them and what is offical there. Dont take me wrong, I like connecting company with fans, this benefits everyone, but some things are just big no. You cannot ask public for help ,,hey help us, test us beta, test world edit, bring opinions" and later to behave like ,,it is my right to determine what I want if you do not like it don't buy it" because it looks like modern day politicians, they all speak what people want to hear and ,,connect" themselves with people, listen their suggestions but at end of day they all do what they wanted from start, all looked like circus and reality show. If you ask community for help, then you are obligated to listen opinions. You can't treat people like ,,I got thousands of wow players, more money from them than from you, you are small" MasterBlaster, since you pointed this out that we are insignificant numbers for them and not core base or aim for this game, I need to remind you that WOW players did not test game, WOW hardcore players did not make models, test them, World edit and such. Hiveworkshop and others did! When you need to take money, then you look at numbers, but when you need to ask for help, then its Okay, we are enough. Before reforged hard core players and fanatics were testing patches, logically. And newest patches are offically base for game (which turned out to be bugged but nevermind). And now ,,final" version is not aimed for us. For whose then? We cleared path for who? Of course, they have right to do it by laws and legally, but for some sense and morality this is not good. They should listen more us than anyone else, not ignoring us.


    Yeah!
     
  12. Venombite

    Venombite

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    @MasterHaosis there are three things I wanna point out. Some of them are facts some personal opinions and why I find a lot of things strange:
    1. In business in general, not just gaming, there is no such thing as moral obligation. There is only legal obligation and stuff you are obliged to do if you don't want to loose money. This is especially true when large companies are concerned. Frankly Blizzard doesn't own anyone anything, of course they own a refund to people they decived with pre-orders, but aside from that of course. No body was forcing anyone to stick with the game. People did it cause they wanted to. Frankly a person who has played the game for 17 years and a person who saw it yesterday for the first time pay equal amount of money and are just as important to Blizzard. So how much money you pay to them, is how much you metter to them, the last sentance is a fact.
    2. Regarding the testing. A Beta isn't Blizzard's invention. Some ten years ago, fans of some game just wanted to test it, and were inpatient to play. So the game developer said OK, you can test it. It suits the company, not only do they get to hire less proffesional testers, but also get fans to promote the game for them. When there's a BETA, it's main purpose is usually not the testing, but promotion, marketing and stuff. Of course, when a lot of people get the BETA, it usually turns out that there are not enough professional testers. And here pretty much everyone got the BETA, so yeah.... But again Blizzard doesn't own anyone anything here. No one is forcing you to play the BETA, and even if you do no one is forcing you to give feedback to Blizzard. They said you're welcome if you want to, that's it.
    3. Yes Reforged is just a side project for Blizzard. Yes it's like ten times smaller than the two main projects, Overwatch 2(likely the companies main priority project) and Diablo 4(obviously has a vip(very important project) status). But it's also not their smallest project either, I'm pretty sure it's bigger than any Hearthstone expansion. That being said it does get some strange things about it. At Blizzcon 2018 it got like 20 mins of the con's main spotlight, universally declared the heighlight of Blizzcon 2018, and yet at Blizzcon 2019 it was barely mentioned, and it's stage was by far the weakest and most unimportant, to me that's just weird. I mean we all new it was comming when they started to release game breaking patches one after another, after like five years, but not to mention it a year after Blizzcon 2018, and barely saying anything at Blizzcon 2019, aside from that the BETA is out, it's just strange if you ask me.
    All that being said there is another strange thing. I'm pretty sure that WoW and Reforged are handled by the same marketing team. And in my coutry, a small, basically a third world coutry, literally the most unimportant market, WoW patches 8.1(Kul Tirans and Zandalari trolls) and 8.2 (Nazjatar and Mechagon) were advertized in the daily newspaper, let alone when expansions came out. Again in likely the most unimportant market. And I saw no advertisment for Reforged anywhere, none, a month before a supposed release, to me that's also strange
     
  13. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Warcraft III Reforged Models - Satyrs



    • Healing Spray seems too low poly?
    • They could have made the Alchemist's transformation akin to Batman's Bane transformation, muscles growing, veins pumping. Right now without the purple skin change like in the original, it looks lame, just one flickering purple FX attached to the chest.
    • Attack animations and such are unfinished by the looks of it, generally.
    • The potion is very similar to the original, looking a bit low quality in comparison with the unit model.
    • Something about the Tinker's metamorphosis looks weird now. There's transparency involved, some sort of clipping, I don't know. Doesn't look as smooth as the original for some reason.
    • Frost Arrows create an FX attached to the target which looks like a sphere. It's annoying especially because it remains still when the target's model animations play, the FX not moving with them.
    • The Sea Witch's attacks seem spasmodic. Hopefully, it's just a unit editor animation speed field issue.
    • Tornado doesn't have animations and the model+texture looks uglier than the original.
    • Spirit Bear doesn't have a portrait yet.
    • Frenzy is not properly attached to the quilboar or at least looks weird that way. Maybe, the FX could be changed not to be that of Bloodlust? Speaking of this last one. Its FX is orange. Maybe make it more blood red. I know Berserk also gives red FX but model differentiation can be made.
    • Stampede lizards don't leave a dust trail when running anymore.
    • Transparent/Invisible units look weird in this game/engine, currently.
    • Silence FX is basically identical. Would be nice to scale model FX based on ability AoE values because Silence's FX always looked too small.
    • Maybe, add the dark trail to the Black Arrow FX like in the original? Now, the projectile is too similar to that of the Reforged Orb of Annihilation.
    • An error since the original, Black Arrow/corpse spawned units should appear on the position of the corpse/dying unit, not nearby.
    • Life Steal FXs suffer from the same issues previously mentioned for Mana Drain.
    • Charm's FX isn't as icon as before. It's basically either the new Blink, Abolish Magic, who knows what else but definitely doesn't look like Charm. I remember mentioning this before though.
    • Lol, Soul Burn's FX is obviously not finished as it looks like something out of Nintendo 64.
    • Lava Elementals have no birth animation and other ones too.
    • OK, Volcano seems to look much better now. However, no one will mind making it look nicer if possible. There were some nice textures on the previous Reforged version from what I remember. Yeah, this one doesn't have lava over the rocky erected parts.
    • The Breath of Fire FX plays too soon compared to the Pandaren's mouth position.
    • Storm, Earth & Fire pandaren don't ninja rotate anymore when coming out.
    • Immolation seems to have some animation continuity/cycle issues.
    • Cyclone FX isn't realistically looking. I think the original looks better.
    • Howl of Terror doesn't have the nova FX and no skulls on the rotating target FX.
    • The Doom Guard should appear on the target's position and have the fire growing as the DG model grows.



    And bois, since you were waiting for Reforged cutscenes, here's a sneak peak of what's to come



    courtesy of @Devalut
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  14. MasterHaosis

    MasterHaosis

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    @Venombite well for those three points, you are right, this is fact, I could not agree or argue more.
    But let me tell you again what is fact, what actually happened before.
    I will try shorter to write, not to go off topic, but this may be related.
    You see, aside from WC3, I play (and mod actually, and made tons of resources) C&C games. Red Alert2/Yuris Revenge mostly. We have communities for those old C&C too (there are no alive or active for never games than for Yuris Revenge and Tiberium Sun which are from 2001 and 1998, so older than Wc3 even). Just few communities, but somewhat big. After EA (Electronic Arts) released Command and COnquer 3 in 2007 which was failry good, but weaker than previous games, and Red Alert 3 in 2008 which was weaker than C&C3 too (and sequence for both games which are further weaker) they announced C&C4.
    Those hypocrites (EA is worse than Blizzard) also though that they have right to do what they wish and waste people's time and do force changes by annoycing C&C4. That game only had famous sides and title C&C and thats all! Complete removing anything we knew, no more harvesting money with miners to build structures and army just like in Wc3, no longer anything we know. They implemented some points over time, and how many points you earn you can spend some on tanks, basically no infantry and this is it. No same game. Still ,,noone is forcing you to buy game". And they released this shit. You know how it ended? By company claiming that game did not do well as expected and they closed producing studio studio and fired literally half of staff. People literally did not give crap for that game, it was epic failure.
    But company did not learned lession. You know what happened next? They annoynced generals 2 (I can't now remember exact year but it was few years ago). Again, they connected to communities but did not listen to them at all. You know how they handled their beta? They invented all webmasters to their company to play beta at their studios! Webmaster from site where I am is from Brazil. he literally traveled from brasil to US (ether LA or San francisco I cant remember at this point) at calling, and he played game with others. They did not like what they saw and gave their opinions and get back and told us. After EA showed offical screenshot (game is from BETA, almost completely finished),
    just before releasing they literally cancelled game with statement that this is not game people wanted and asked for and that they learned lession . This actually happened. offical statement was that game is not what fans wanted, and that literally cancelled it in almost finished state. Why? because we bashed them (i say we as community, I did not give crap about that game), almost nobody wanted to buy game and we felt betrayed. You do all yourself, than you play yourself game, we wont buy it.
    And you know what happened recently? As Reforged, EA announced C&C Remaster! red Alert Remastered got tesla tank for example. This year they showed to communities and asked if they should put two rings or one (which is not matter after all), which is just silly detail. Instead of this attitude ,,I can do whatever I want and nobody forcing you anything" they now ask us about details on units. Well technically not all, people still complain, but much less than before.
    To summary this: How did it happen? After one failed game and one literally destroyed before release, and losing millions, they finally listen.
    Now, I am not saying that Blizzard and reforged are in same case. it is different in many aspects, but I just explained you that EA also though that they have no moral obligation, and now feel that they do have after all by talking to people and give them what they want. it is not just my statement. It is theirs.
    However, again, I do not know if this can work here. On that we can argue, and I can believe you on this one that reforged is much different case. But I told you that this worked before. Can you imagine if EA did just what Blizzard did, accepting money for incomplete project? I think literally that they would immediately close those series for all time. They would be forced to go on EA sports and SIMS. But there, community punishes, unlike here.

    Now on this:

    Hmmmm... Man do you have any idea or opinion why did happen? it is strange to me as well. Only O have opinion that at least one reason for al lthis (there are few more reasons still) that even now they rely on old fans to promote game for them. Now we should be hyped about Reforged and post youtube videos, facebook/twitter posts and such and game will be promoted more instead of them. But again there may be other reasons.


    deepstarasz, + rep for you! Good job on those updates. I like Satyrs. I am not good much with new female models replacing males.
    Perhaps I am used to it or something like that.
    I still wait Night Elves to see.
     
  15. Darkfang

    Darkfang

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    Well, If I'm to ask anything from them, is not bug fix, but to add new abilities to make mapmaking easier:

    *leap ability: causes the hero to leap to a target or a location. Height can be adjusted, same as passing through obstacles, and the facing of the unit who jumps (if it jumps facing backwards, or upwards, or if it is a side jump.

    *Stacking Poison ability: if you change the buff, any other instance of the ability will stack with it as a different poison buff.

    *Stacking DPS on cast: same as above, but can either heal or damage.

    *Stacking slow ability on buff change.

    *An hp shield/barrier ability that stacks, and a function to add a shield with triggers, and proper display of them in health bars.

    *Skillshot ability: launches an skillshot projectile that dies when it enters in contact with it's targets. You can choose it's collision radius or if it deals AoE damage upon launch.

    *Single target projectile damage ability that doesn't stun or has any effect: name.

    *Cause Moon Glaive ability to actually cause attacks to baunce

    *Cause Vorpal Blades to actually cause attacks to spill

    *Add an attack range modifier ability

    *Add a tome of armor

    *Add an option to cause orb effects to stack

    *Add a function in the GUI trigger to add timed buffs to a target and to select the type of buffs and modify their timers.
     
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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  17. MasterHaosis

    MasterHaosis

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    The fall of Silvermoon, imported campaign. This looks awesome! Just what I need. Even beta, even imported and not finished, this looks awesome! For me, at least.
     
  18. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    No, not really.
    Don't give them wrong ideas :\
     
  19. MasterHaosis

    MasterHaosis

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    But why? What looks wrong? I was criticizing them for behavior and greed and corporate craps, not about model appearance.
    At least they are better than WOW ones.


    WOW sucks
     
  20. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    For starters, the lightening and overall contrast doesn't look refined. It's as if unpolished, sketchy.
    I didn't say the models are bad.
    Yep, but did you see Reforged design is more close to WoW?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019