Warcraft 3 Reforged

[Anaxie]

Damn there is some serious saltiness going on here.

Not salty just concern. Things like doing a 180* on Draenie design are valid concerns where it's likely to go since they want to emulate WoW.

Suppose Fel Orcs are going to be spikey Orcs to

Best part of the interview is when he says they will sit down and play the game and discuss their experiences .

Classic team are gamers. The rest of Blizzard is a corporate machine making skinner box gambling bullshit to force people to keep playing no matter how offputting

overall whatever asthetic changes comes at least I can say is that I'm confident WC3R and the eventual Diablo 2 Remake which will likely be on the D3 engine but with talent trees and all the core design is something Blizzard fans of old can look forward to.

For people who don't like the new style of models and textures:
[RenderEdge] Experimental version

View attachment 309211 View attachment 309210 View attachment 309207 View attachment 309208 View attachment 309209
View attachment 309213 View attachment 309212

Everything look plastic and gross

Pass

Warcraft Rebirth mod AKA Armies of Azeroth
Is the only Vanilla graphic modification that matters and keeps the original design intent.

 

[deepstrasz]

As someone who made a female dwarf hero model in the past because the lack of female dwarves in the hive database was bothering me; I do.

Judging by the cartoony Warcraft III look it's hard to discern it's actually a dwarf you know unless you add the proper characteristics:

22:39->
You've misquoted me with @Anaxie's question by the way...

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Judging by the cartoony Warcraft III look it's hard to discern it's actually a dwarf you know unless you add the proper characteristics:

22:39->
You've misquoted me with @Anaxie's question by the way...

It depends on what lore you go after. Basically, my understanding of female dwarves is the same as that in divinity: original sin 2. Female dwarves are curvy midget women with weird haircuts. And that's basically what female WoW dwarves looked like in Vanilla WoW too. So that's what I made.
Also, I kinda played on the bearded women cliche at some other place, by calling the ordinary riflemen in a dwarven village "female dwarf".

 

[ENAleksey]

Everything look plastic and gross

This is because the lighting is baked in the original textures, and all models uses the same value of roughness and specular.

What about this?

 

[Tauer]

Everything look plastic and gross

Pass

Your attitude is pretty obnoxious.

 

[deepstrasz]

What about this?

I like the second most.

 

[Tauer]

This is because the lighting is baked in the original textures, and all models uses the same value of roughness and specular.

What about this?

View attachment 309234 View attachment 309235 View attachment 309236 View attachment 309239 View attachment 309238 View attachment 309233 View attachment 309237

Is that all in the Warcraft III engine? It looks amazing. How did you achieve real-time shadows like that?

 

[deepstrasz]

Is that all in the Warcraft III engine? It looks amazing. How did you achieve real-time shadows like that?

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/search/33222940/

 

[ENAleksey]

How did you achieve that real-time shadows like that?

I inject my DLL into the game and intercept direct3d calls and some functions from game.dll, then replace them with my own.
You can try it by yourself: [RenderEdge] Experimental version

 

[Anaxie]

This is because the lighting is baked in the original textures, and all models uses the same value of roughness and specular.

What about this?

View attachment 309234 View attachment 309235 View attachment 309236 View attachment 309239 View attachment 309238 View attachment 309233 View attachment 309237

pretty good

 

[Tauer]

Warcraft Rebirth mod AKA Armies of Azeroth
Is the only Vanilla graphic modification that matters and keeps the original design intent.

That mod uses rips from other games. How on earth is that "keeping the original design"? It's literally from another game. No offence to the authors of that mod, I have huge respect for them, but Reforged is miles better. And I find it ironic that people have nothing but high praise for any mod that remasters WC3 with better graphics, like the Warcraft Rebirth or Armies of Azeroth (two different mods btw, one is for WC3 the other for SC2), but as soon as Blizzard does the same thing, with much better-looking graphics, people lose their shit and accuse them of "going against the original design". The double standards are real. It's a remaster, it's supposed to look different.

 

[YourArthas]

That mod uses rips from other games. How on earth is that "keeping the original design"? It's literally from another game. No offence to the authors of that mod, I have huge respect for them, but Reforged is miles better. And I find it ironic that people have nothing but high praise for any mod that remasters WC3 with better graphics, like the Warcraft Rebirth or Armies of Azeroth (two different mods btw, one is for WC3 the other for SC2), but as soon as Blizzard does the same thing, with much better-looking graphics, people lose their shit and accuse them of "going against the original design". The double standards are real. It's a remaster, it's supposed to look different.

Well we are the same team , I'm making Wc3 version while also making models for both games, also we used alot of sculpts we made , but like I said it is best that Blizzard remakes it loyal to original and everyone can still use our mod on top of Reforged for the stuff they like more.

 

[Tauer]

Well we are the same team , I'm making Wc3 version while also making models for both games, also we used alot of sculpts we made , but like I said it is best that Blizzard remakes it loyal to original and everyone can still use our mod on top of Reforged for the stuff they like more.

Even if the new art style clashes with the work you've done people still have the option to switch to the old art style. That means that your mod can still be used and enjoy all the other benefits that Reforged has to offer.

 

[YourArthas]

Even if the new art style clashes with the work you've done people still have the option to switch to the old art style. That means that your mod can still be used and enjoy all the other benefits that Reforged has to offer.

To be honest they dont clash at all people are being toxic about new artstyle being 'clay,realistic' etc but they are rendered great in engine just fitting with our stuff (at least as a modeler I understand and appreciate the job Blizzard done)

 

[aider]

That mod uses rips from other games. How on earth is that "keeping the original design"? It's literally from another game. No offence to the authors of that mod, I have huge respect for them, but Reforged is miles better. And I find it ironic that people have nothing but high praise for any mod that remasters WC3 with better graphics, like the Warcraft Rebirth or Armies of Azeroth (two different mods btw, one is for WC3 the other for SC2), but as soon as Blizzard does the same thing, with much better-looking graphics, people lose their shit and accuse them of "going against the original design". The double standards are real. It's a remaster, it's supposed to look different.

There are very few downsides and this is mostly something to be celebrated. But most people have become offense-junkies these days, they are addicted to feeling offended and playing the victim role, because it puts them in the center and gives them an excuse to vent out their negative feelings from completely different parts of their lives. And when there are enough whiners, like there always is with large projects like this, they get consensus which makes them feel like they're on the righteous side fighting the good fight, when they are really just stuck in a mental circlejerk

The mature people are calm and happy at least something is happening, and using their time and energy in the map editor, creating maps for the exciting times to come and collecting notes on how both the game and world editor can be improved, as the developers are hungry for now.

Like these whining kids know the first thing about game development, to tell Blizzard how to do their job. No matter what they do it's wrong, however the whiners don't actually have any concrete image in their head of how it should be done, it just needs to be different! Because it's not really about the story, it's about their emotions and feeding their offense addiction

Like people getting hung up on the size of shoulder armor, analyzing the ALPHA-models from the front down on the ground, when you're going to be spending 99.99% of your time watching everything top-down, completely changing how you perceive the models.
Footmen looked like dwarves, Arthas didn't have a neck, Sylvanas wasn't planned back in RoC to have the impact she had later. Now humans look like humans at least.
And what they showed at Blizzcon was obviously rushed as they got the call they would announce it there.
You know they went through several different graphical styles in the brainstorming process, there is a reason they chose the one they did.

And people turning on their drama queen about the layout of Stratholme.. wtf is going on.. like that has any important meaning next to The Culling which is really what that map is all about. In the bigger picture, more is achieved if new players feel more at home and can easily identify and say "wow cool, Stratholme I've spent several hours in total in WoW, so this is really what happened here". This would have been different if Warcraft was based on the lifework of a dead great author who had drawn detailed map of the cities he had written about. No, they just needed a walled in cluster of houses for this event. They didn't know how big Warcraft would be in RoC, so in WoW they got to define the world itself more. Just because something was first doesn't magically make it the only right thing

At least something is happening, and you still got the old game. So what's the problem? There is no problem here, only people with problems projecting it on everything else

 

[RED BARON]

It's not just monetization tho personally I'm fine with it as long as it's cosmetics.

Elder scrolls was just executed horribly and it's totally different with Warcraft 3. Elder scrolls you are selling mods which people actually need and meanwhile you had no oversight on it. In warcraft 3 all the maps (different games not MODS) are free to play, Who cares if the Mapper is selling cosmetics on it and people are happy to support him/her.

Sorry good maps take full days every day to work on and love from community helps but you can't live on that. If that was the case Icefrog would still be here and all the great maps would not have been outsourced to Steam leaving Warcraft 3 to die.

Netease is half the size of Activision-blizzard, Sorry but it Was Blizzard's decision to kill it. The only reason they partnered in the making of this game was so they could copy paste one of Netease's already made game and reskin it.

So you are fine with a game that already costs money, should have more monetization on top of that? You want to give even more money to a corporation that has plenty already and in no way require more?

Supporting modders: Yes that is fine. Should it be integrated into the game? No, that is the fail of Bethesda's system. You aren't supporting any modder, you are supporting that a company can hire some in essense freelancers to create mods for a game. You buy "coins" which you then buy the mod with, forcing you to spend more than you otherwise would (not to mention the "patches", but that is another problem in itself for creation club).

If you wanted to support a modder, make the modder create a paypal/patron/whatever and use that.

A modder have complete freedom with what he or she creates, hence why we get a community like this. If every single thing on here costs money then Hive would be gone. Talking about how steam has "all the great maps" are bullshit. All the "great" maps wouldn't even exists if it weren't for a free and open modding community. Would Icefrog have made a career out of his map, if he had to pay for every model, spell and whatnot he used in the map? No.. because he would never have been able to continue from Neichus, and so on.

You seem to have failed at understanding that skins, models & icons here on Hive all would fit splendidly within the "just cosmetics". So take time to consider what would likely happen if you had to buy cosmetics for Warcraft? Do you believe that Blizzard would want to compete with free mods? I doubt it.

Will we this time get the same quality client and features as Warcraft Netease is in China?? They get it free to play and 10 times client quality of us! Like WTF? Even if the reforged has half the qualities of Netease I'll pre-order this.

Why in the world would you even consider this?? Yea, they have a complete market for selling maps, with content not owned by the creator.. - so tons of copyright issues. They have a free to play model, so they can enjoy all that extra control on their Chinese platform, the data for their advertisement companies and so forth.
They are active in a country with a population and situation that cannot in anyway be compared to EU or US.
If Warcraft was running as it is in China, I wouldn't be a Warcraft modder.

 

[deepstrasz]

nd people turning on their drama queen about the layout of Stratholme.. wtf is going on.. like that has any important meaning next to The Culling which is really what that map is all about. In the bigger picture, more is achieved if new players feel more at home and can easily identify and say "wow cool, Stratholme I've spent several hours in total in WoW, so this is really what happened here". This would have been different if Warcraft was based on the lifework of a dead great author who had drawn detailed map of the cities he had written about. No, they just needed a walled in cluster of houses for this event. They didn't know how big Warcraft would be in RoC, so in WoW they got to define the world itself more. Just because something was first doesn't magically make it the only right thing

Sure thing:

 

[Triceron]

How Blizzard Is Updating Warcraft III’s Fiction For Reforged

I'm not too keen on this news. I'm skeptically optimistic but it's hard.

They seem to really want to push forward on making this WoWcraft 3, and take out a lot of the legacy things like easter eggs and old jokes out of being updated.

My take out of this - We need to give constructive feedback where we can without jumping the gun and going full rant, because we know full well they don't listen to rants. It'll be difficult since this seems to be their 'vision' for WC3R....

 

[Anaxie]

There are very few downsides and this is mostly something to be celebrated. But most people have become offense-junkies these days, they are addicted to feeling offended and playing the victim role, because it puts them in the center and gives them an excuse to vent out their negative feelings from completely different parts of their lives. And when there are enough whiners, like there always is with large projects like this, they get consensus which makes them feel like they're on the righteous side fighting the good fight, when they are really just stuck in a mental circlejerk

The mature people are calm and happy at least something is happening, and using their time and energy in the map editor, creating maps for the exciting times to come and collecting notes on how both the game and world editor can be improved, as the developers are hungry for now.

Like these whining kids know the first thing about game development, to tell Blizzard how to do their job. No matter what they do it's wrong, however the whiners don't actually have any concrete image in their head of how it should be done, it just needs to be different! Because it's not really about the story, it's about their emotions and feeding their offense addiction

Like people getting hung up on the size of shoulder armor, analyzing the ALPHA-models from the front down on the ground, when you're going to be spending 99.99% of your time watching everything top-down, completely changing how you perceive the models.
Footmen looked like dwarves, Arthas didn't have a neck, Sylvanas wasn't planned back in RoC to have the impact she had later. Now humans look like humans at least.
And what they showed at Blizzcon was obviously rushed as they got the call they would announce it there.
You know they went through several different graphical styles in the brainstorming process, there is a reason they chose the one they did.

And people turning on their drama queen about the layout of Stratholme.. wtf is going on.. like that has any important meaning next to The Culling which is really what that map is all about. In the bigger picture, more is achieved if new players feel more at home and can easily identify and say "wow cool, Stratholme I've spent several hours in total in WoW, so this is really what happened here". This would have been different if Warcraft was based on the lifework of a dead great author who had drawn detailed map of the cities he had written about. No, they just needed a walled in cluster of houses for this event. They didn't know how big Warcraft would be in RoC, so in WoW they got to define the world itself more. Just because something was first doesn't magically make it the only right thing

At least something is happening, and you still got the old game. So what's the problem? There is no problem here, only people with problems projecting it on everything else

I celebrated the fact the map was different because it objectively is a completely new mission because of the entirely new map.

People should be concerns if the OLD campaigns are still playable however because if this is one client and Exe.

The rest of what you said is just droning idiocy.

Nothing about WC3R at blizzcon seemed rushed? What? who the hell is saying that?

You say other shit like Sylvanas wasn't planned blah blah?

Footmen look nothing like dwarves either what the actual fuck are you going on about?

WoW was in development the same time as WC3 and TFT. Her Entire Ark in TFT was to be able introduce the Forsaken Faction before WoW.

So you are fine with a game that already costs money, should have more monetization on top of that? You want to give even more money to a corporation that has plenty already and in no way require more?

Supporting modders: Yes that is fine. Should it be integrated into the game? No, that is the fail of Bethesda's system. You aren't supporting any modder, you are supporting that a company can hire some in essense freelancers to create mods for a game. You buy "coins" which you then buy the mod with, forcing you to spend more than you otherwise would (not to mention the "patches", but that is another problem in itself for creation club).

If you wanted to support a modder, make the modder create a paypal/patron/whatever and use that.

A modder have complete freedom with what he or she creates, hence why we get a community like this. If every single thing on here costs money then Hive would be gone. Talking about how steam has "all the great maps" are bullshit. All the "great" maps wouldn't even exists if it weren't for a free and open modding community. Would Icefrog have made a career out of his map, if he had to pay for every model, spell and whatnot he used in the map? No.. because he would never have been able to continue from Neichus, and so on.

You seem to have failed at understanding that skins, models & icons here on Hive all would fit splendidly within the "just cosmetics". So take time to consider what would likely happen if you had to buy cosmetics for Warcraft? Do you believe that Blizzard would want to compete with free mods? I doubt it.



Why in the world would you even consider this?? Yea, they have a complete market for selling maps, with content not owned by the creator.. - so tons of copyright issues. They have a free to play model, so they can enjoy all that extra control on their Chinese platform, the data for their advertisement companies and so forth.
They are active in a country with a population and situation that cannot in anyway be compared to EU or US.
If Warcraft was running as it is in China, I wouldn't be a Warcraft modder.

is the corporate apologist youre quoting defending the creation club?

Newsflash to that guy

modders get paid? Yes a ONE TIME pittance. Bethesda reaps a 100:1 profit on someone elses work if not more.

Bethesda has nothing but disdain for it's customers.

~Re-release the same skyrim game how many times and not fix a SINGLE BUG that modders had fixed thousands of bugs YEARS before the latest Switch release.
~Have the nerve to do the Creation CLub after the message was well loud and clear when the Steam Paid Mod attempt crashed and burned
~Lets not forget those miserable shits at bethesda are the harbingers of the DLC introduction to games back in the early days of 360/Ps3 with oblivion and shit like their much loved Horse armor , or various other insignificant shit at $5 a pop.

Yeah they got better for a couple years BUT then skyrim came and most of a decade passed.

People get shit like Creation club now , Fallout 76 which is full of MTs, a 30$ season pass jacked up to $50 sitting at 30% positive reviews by how hard they scammed everyone.
Nevermind Skyrim Re-Release #16 or is it 18 by now? with absolutely nothing done to fix the shit they had left broken in the span of 7ish years.

You know who else is emulating disdain for their customers these days in 2018? Beloved can do no wrong Blizzard if the state of all their franchises isn't obvious enough.

The only saving grace is the Classic team is giving us stuff from the days back in gaming when people actually gave a shit and didn't release half baked products.




_____________________________________________
________________________________________________
________________________________________________

quotes like this from Golden and the Classic team for WC3R make me concerned about this story.
WC3 is first and formost an RTS.

Here is a bunch of uneeded story and shit they want to inject in that personally just feels irelevant and pushes this further away from simply being Warcraft 3.

Why the hell does Arthass horse matter so much in an RTS?
Are they going to tell the story of WHY thrall is even a warchief aka Lord of the Clans? no?

Then why do we need what sounds like random interlude levels of Arthas sobbing over his horse? They want to be blunt and drive it into peoples heads. HEY GUYS ITS INVINCIBLE FROM WOW! Why does it NEED to be in Wc3? stuff like that is stupid but whatever I guess.

How Blizzard Is Updating Warcraft III’s Fiction For Reforged

REMOVING unit click responses because ITS OLD JOKES

Want to remove lines like "me not that kind of Orc" from Grunt annoyed unit responses.

HOW BOUT NO?
~~~~

With that in mind, how are you updating unit barks?
Groot: We’re looking at how to adjust some lines and add new lines that take into account some of the new lore that’s come in. Some of them are almost Easter eggs.

Golden: Some of the jokes are very old. Sometimes they’re like a riff on an old commercial that everybody got back then but wouldn’t make any sense anymore.

Groot: There are references to very old songs. There are references to I Love Lucy. There are references to dial-up modems, Star 69, and all those old telephone things.

Golden: We’re trying to find the ones that will really bump people out of the game, and the stuff that really doesn’t land anymore. My particular favorite is, “Me not that kind of Orc.” It reads differently today, but it’s really funny, because he’s a big green Orc. It still lands. It’s still funny. Maybe we wouldn’t have written that now, but that is something that people get even now.






The horse’s front legs are broken and it’s screaming in pain, and the snow is coming, and Arthas knows there’s no way he can get help in time, because his own ribs are broken. So he has to kill his own horse to put it out of its misery. He does it, and gets up and says, “This is the last time. This is the last time I am ever going to fail anyone.” Then when he becomes the Lich King, the very first thing he does is he goes back to Invincible’s grave, and he raises the horse as an undead. Arthas thinks, “I didn’t mess up. I did everything right. If Invincible wasn’t dead, he’d be afraid of me, but now he and I are going to live forever. I did not screw up.”

Groot: I love that story, and it tells you so much about him, so then we were like, should we fit this into the game? That’s the kind of thing were still juggling. I don’t know for sure if that’s going to make it, but we’re exploring things like that

Groot: We’ve basically done a pass on everything, so now we’re just going back through and adding extra polish. A lot of these lines were written back in a different environment. They had a smaller team and they were doing things in rapid-fire. But some of that stuff that didn’t have the same level of polish that we’re giving it today has become iconic and beloved in its own way. We keep saying, “Yeah, maybe we would’ve written that exactly that way today, but is this iconic? Is it beloved?” We’re trying to respect the source a lot.

 

[Iliya]

So you are fine with a game that already costs money, should have more monetization on top of that? You want to give even more money to a corporation that has plenty already and in no way require more?

Well the game already has monetization with skins for Melee and plus more cosmetics will be added by Blizzard in reforged. I don't think you realize but Blizz gets all the money for nothing atm. Right now map makers are essential free labor for them who work day night for Blizzard to create mods so more people buy and play Warcraft 3 and give all the money to Blizzard and NONE to map makers.

Imagine how many people (me included) Icefrog brought into Warcraft 3 with his dota. Only for Blizzard to take in all the Cash while spitting on his face. No wonder why left this place.

Supporting modders: Yes that is fine. Should it be integrated into the game? No, that is the fail of Bethesda's system. You aren't supporting any modder, you are supporting that a company can hire some in essense freelancers to create mods for a game. You buy "coins" which you then buy the mod with, forcing you to spend more than you otherwise would (not to mention the "patches", but that is another problem in itself for creation club).

If you wanted to support a modder, make the modder create a paypal/patron/whatever and use that.

Well you are using Copyright and engine of Blizzard after all so it makes sense if they get a share. Still a share can mean tons for big maps like Dota or Legion TD. Patron won't help much and is flawed for many reasons.

1- people rarely do it. In comparison to skins where you get something, you get nothing unique to yourself with Patreon. Pretty sure All the popular custom map creators would start patreon instead of going on Steam if it was worht it.
2- It creates a conflict of interest where the map maker is more responsible to please donnors rather than majority of playerbase. Rule by the lobbying rich.
3- This is quite likely but if a map gets to big and makes tons on Patreon (quite unlikely with Patreon), Blizzard most likely will not be happy about and take action. The map is their after all and they don't want nothing getting any of its benefits.

A modder have complete freedom with what he or she creates, hence why we get a community like this. If every single thing on here costs money then Hive would be gone. Talking about how steam has "all the great maps" are bullshit. All the "great" maps wouldn't even exists if it weren't for a free and open modding community. Would Icefrog have made a career out of his map, if he had to pay for every model, spell and whatnot he used in the map? No.. because he would never have been able to continue from Neichus, and so on.

You seem to have failed at understanding that skins, models & icons here on Hive all would fit splendidly within the "just cosmetics". So take time to consider what would likely happen if you had to buy cosmetics for Warcraft? Do you believe that Blizzard would want to compete with free mods? I doubt it.

Vast majority of the models are Blizzard's assets so they are free to use so Dota would be fine. Also ability for map makers to sell cosmetics does not mean every model is now suddenly paid for. Look at Netease, Just because something has the ability to be monetized that does mean they will be. That is like saying every video on Youtube is monetized and people don't put out anything for free to gain reputation first.


Blizzard would more than happy, right now people will play free mods anyway instead of melee and won't buy any cosmetics for them. Blizzard would be more than happy if they did and Blizz had share rather than getting nothing at all.

Why in the world would you even consider this?? Yea, they have a complete market for selling maps, with content not owned by the creator.. - so tons of copyright issues. They have a free to play model, so they can enjoy all that extra control on their Chinese platform, the data for their advertisement companies and so forth.
They are active in a country with a population and situation that cannot in anyway be compared to EU or US.
If Warcraft was running as it is in China, I wouldn't be a Warcraft modder.

"Content now owned by creator" lol did you ever read the EULA? Nothing here is owned by anyone but BLIZZARD! All the maps, models, spells, icons etc. ALL BLIZZARD. There won't be copyright issues cause Blizzard owns everything and it is giving the option to use it. Hence they can easily manage it who has the right to monetize what.
Population wise US+EU would be around the same when you count active gamers. Tho I gotta say tho Netease could afford to make it free to play since the game is damn old so they needed free to play to attract new eyes.

My point is overall if the current system was "so good", All the popular maps Dota, Legion TD etc would still be here. Dota did not Die, Legion TD did not die. Warcraft 3 custom community did DIE!

Yes It won't be perfect but If Blizzard does not implement a way for us to support modders, Just like last time Any popular custom map will outsource out of Warcraft 3. And this time they have far more options and it's far easier for them to do so! Leaving Warcraft 3 to rot once again.


I understand some of you were burned by bethesda's malicious practices but paying modders was not the issue. Watch this vid maybe:

 

[Triceron]

TBH we're in the best time in the free market to be modders and map makers. If monetization is the concern, we have options like patreon to support creators.

Just look at the work that one guy who's making WoW machinima of Reign of Chaos. Want to support creators? We can do so directly.

People are making money streaming and playing games. People watch the streamers, and if they play custom maps, that's free advertisement to get more people playing maps and mods. It's not a perfect system, but damn if it's not better than what it was 15 years ago.

 

[Anaxie]

Well the game already has monetization with skins for Melee and plus more cosmetics will be added by Blizzard in reforged. I don't think you realize but Blizz gets all the money for nothing atm. Right now map makers are essential free labor for them who work day night for Blizzard to create mods so more people buy and play Warcraft 3 and give all the money to Blizzard and NONE to map makers.

Imagine how many people (me included) Icefrog brought into Warcraft 3 with his dota. Only for Blizzard to take in all the Cash while spitting on his face. No wonder why left this place.

Well you are using Copyright and engine of Blizzard after all so it makes sense if they get a share. Still a share can mean tons for big maps like Dota or Legion TD. Patron won't help much and is flawed for many reasons.

1- people rarely do it. In comparison to skins where you get something, you get nothing unique to yourself with Patreon. Pretty sure All the popular custom map creators would start patreon instead of going on Steam if it was worht it.
2- It creates a conflict of interest where the map maker is more responsible to please donnors rather than majority of playerbase. Rule by the lobbying rich.
3- This is quite likely but if a map gets to big and makes tons on Patreon (quite unlikely with Patreon), Blizzard most likely will not be happy about and take action. The map is their after all and they don't want nothing getting any of its benefits.




Vast majority of the models are Blizzard's assets so they are free to use so Dota would be fine. Also ability for map makers to sell cosmetics does not mean every model is now suddenly paid for. Look at Netease, Just because something has the ability to be monetized that does mean they will be. That is like saying every video on Youtube is monetized and people don't put out anything for free to gain reputation first.


Blizzard would more than happy, right now people will play free mods anyway instead of melee and won't buy any cosmetics for them. Blizzard would be more than happy if they did and Blizz had share rather than getting nothing at all.








"Content now owned by creator" lol did you ever read the EULA? Nothing here is owned by anyone but BLIZZARD! All the maps, models, spells, icons etc. ALL BLIZZARD. There won't be copyright issues cause Blizzard owns everything and it is giving the option to use it. Hence they can easily manage it who has the right to monetize what.
Population wise US+EU would be around the same when you count active gamers. Tho I gotta say tho Netease could afford to make it free to play since the game is damn old so they needed free to play to attract new eyes.

My point is overall if the current system was "so good", All the popular maps Dota, Legion TD etc would still be here. Dota did not Die, Legion TD did not die. Warcraft 3 custom community did DIE!

Yes It won't be perfect but If Blizzard does not implement a way for us to support modders, Just like last time Any popular custom map will outsource out of Warcraft 3. And this time they have far more options and it's far easier for them to do so! Leaving Warcraft 3 to rot once again.


I understand some of you were burned by bethesda's malicious practices but paying modders was not the issue. Watch this vid maybe:

What in the hell did I just read.

that extra credits kid is a fucking retard. and corporate apologist. No

Nevermind we all SAW what Paid Mods turned into. A fucking dumpster fire of trash and the "modders" paid a pittance and stuff thats FREE on Nexus sold for up to even $10 by Bethesda.

Maybe they should monetize the Bug Fix Patches since they didn't fix a single fucking thing in any of their re-releases all the way to Switch SEVEN YEARS later after fans fixed it.

 

[Iliya]

TBH we're in the best time in the free market to be modders and map makers. If monetization is the concern, we have options like patreon to support creators.

Just look at the work that one guy who's making WoW machinima of Reign of Chaos. Want to support creators? We can do so directly.

People are making money streaming and playing games. People watch the streamers, and if they play custom maps, that's free advertisement to get more people playing maps and mods. It's not a perfect system, but damn if it's not better than what it was 15 years ago.

Jose BV I believe you are talking about? I'm already his patreon. He has 37. It helps sure but tbh that is like less than 1$ per hour of work he puts in to this. If he was not financially well off he would not be doing this. Pretty sure he makes far more from ads than Patreon.

It's a great time to be streamers and youtubers for sure. They have actual copyright and actual right to advertise on their games. Mods have neither. hell even adds on sites like hive are technically illegal. Unlike streamers or Youtubers, Mods can only make anything through patreon which I have explained it's huge problems.

 

[Anaxie]

Jose BV I believe you are talking about? I'm already his patreon. He has 37. It helps sure but tbh that is like less than 1$ per hour of work he puts in to this. If he was not financially well off he would not be doing this. Pretty sure he makes far more from ads than Patreon.

It's a great time to be streamers and youtubers for sure. They have actual copyright and actual right to advertise on their games. Mods have neither. hell even adds on sites like hive are technically illegal. Unlike streamers or Youtubers, Mods can only make anything through patreon which I have explained it's huge problems.

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF MODDERS THAT DO IT FOR PASSION AND NOT MONEY

You're input means fucking NOTHING.

This horse has been drawn out in the Steam PAID MODS fiasco by a large enough margin to gauge it. It's an overwhelming FUCK NO by majority of modders and community and games to not support Paid modding.


Hostilities aside I'll be blunt since you were promoting Netease WC3 in another thread.

I'm going to assume youre from China or at least believe in their way of monetization and the fact you are a little 20 year old.

Gamers in the west FUCKING DESPISE those methods of monetization and predatory microtransactions with a passion.

It's not viable at all.

want to piss people off more then they are now? Put Netease the people reskinning Diablo Immortal for Mobile on Warcraft 3 type paid custom content. That will make the Diablo fiasco seem like a whisper in comparison.

 

[Iliya]

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF MODDERS THAT DO IT FOR PASSION AND NOT MONEY

You're input means fucking NOTHING.

This horse has been drawn out in the Steam PAID MODS fiasco by a large enough margin to gauge it. It's an overwhelming FUCK NO by majority of modders and community and games to not support Paid modding.

Data Before reforged announcement:

Player peak number:

Dota 2: 600,000

Netease: 40,000 (custom only)

Warcraft 3 battle.net: 3500 (Mix of of Melee and Custom)


Yes you can create a game with passion for free. But to turn into to something great like Dota it takes quitting job and Uni and putting countless hours of work every over years and years. Unless you are rich AF and have no life, That is not possible for a map maker.

Data and evidence speak for themselves best. If our system was so good why did the Top map makers left? As I said their maps did not die, Warcraft 3 did.


Also I get you guys like giving Blizzard free money by working constantly to attract more sales to their game through your mods and enriching the corporation for nothing. But as history as shown the major map makers like Icefrog do not want and leave somewhere where they can get rewarded for their efforts.

 

[Dr. Benevolent Guy]

If this will be included in the Battle.net Launcher meaning Warcraft 3 Reforged can't be played without internet connection? Correct me if I am wrong pls.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

If this will be included in the Battle.net Launcher meaning Warcraft 3 Reforged can't be played without internet connection? Correct me if I am wrong pls.

Hi, you don't need internet for the Blizzard Battle.net launcher to play single player, it hasn't been that way since I think the D3 complaints years ago. There's an offline mode.

 

[deepstrasz]

Why the hell does Arthass horse matter so much in an RTS?
Are they going to tell the story of WHY thrall is even a warchief aka Lord of the Clans? no?

I think they liked the idea of and the movie Solo: A Star Wars Story.

I don't think you realize but Blizz gets all the money for nothing atm.

Are you some sort of far seer? WoW is their main income.

Imagine how many people (me included) Icefrog brought into Warcraft 3 with his dota. Only for Blizzard to take in all the Cash while spitting on his face. No wonder why left this place.

That's untrue. Icefrog left because he wanted to make the game even better and have a job with it. Warcraft III's engine had limitations, the source code was not meant to be changed at will.

That is like saying every video on Youtube is monetized and people don't put out anything for free to gain reputation first.

Most people would monetize if they had the proper number of viewers.

Yes It won't be perfect but If Blizzard does not implement a way for us to support modders, Just like last time Any popular custom map will outsource out of Warcraft 3. And this time they have far more options and it's far easier for them to do so! Leaving Warcraft 3 to rot once again.

So many dedicated people here on Hive which don't leave. It's part of their hobbies. They don't do it for food. That would be wrong. Art for food usually doesn't bode well.
People who want to support art, they donate. Forcing them to buy it is wrong.

 

[Tauer]

The rest of what you said is just droning idiocy.

What? who the hell is saying that?

what the actual fuck are you going on about?

fact check before you decide to keep lecturing and spouting random shit next time.

Think before you post stupid shit next time.

HOW BOUT NO?

You're input means fucking NOTHING.

I'm going to assume youre from China or at least believe in their way of monetization and the fact you are a little 20 year old.

You really need to dial it down with the toxicity. It's getting old.

REMOVING unit click responses because ITS OLD JOKES

How many times does this have to be said? You can switch to the old voices whenever you want. This is a complete non-issue. Why is this even worth complaining about?

Want to remove lines like "me not that kind of Orc" from Grunt annoyed unit responses.

They literally said that they still find that line funny, hence not wanting to remove it. You're not even reading what people are saying, you're just trying to stir up hostility now.

 

[Heinvers]

Go back to MMOChampion and spread your toxicity there Anaxie.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Rule breaking behavior has already taken care of and more severe posts have been deleted.
Continue on with reforging the wc3 discussion.

 

[disruptive_]

I'm drunk.

Premise 1.
The WC3/SC2 modding scene has some inherent value that must be extracted. I'm not talking about bringing the familty together or things like that, i'm talking about the green devil. We know that. Activision Blizzard knows that (Starcraft II; WC3 recent updates (or you really think they did those to please YOU special little creature?); Dota 1/2 cases and trails; WC3 Recycled, i mean Reforged, advertisements). Do they know that?

Premise 2.
You can extract that value on a slow, comprehensive, progressive, sustainable scale, or on a more white shark, cold blooded, let's fucking devour their wallets - that tomorrow we can die approach.
On this concrete case, what are you expecting?
The last approach also tends to be more professional (read: serious, otherwise a russian hitman hired by a controlling shareholder will kill one of the executives, i'm joking of course as the outcome will be simply some death threats here and there and a possible abduction but w/e) and more large scale on regards of the resources that will be deployed.

A mod scene can even be treated as a serious minimization of the costs of searching talented and product-commited people (ie. workers).
Just think on the hirings that Blizzard did this year for their classic game team. And this was from a community and users that endured years of neglection.

The thing is, as it appears (appeared), there isn't a low risk system to manage a game's mod scene so to get the profits and value that it gives. How you milk this not-so new cow until it dries? How you correctly kill the goose that lays those delicious golden eggs?
One could say that just leaving the modders photosynthesize on the forums and do stuff very slowly is not an efficient way to get the maximum amount of eggs (this is not my opinion, as i value passionate people that works for work sake). Wasn't the mission to extract value fast or atleast at a reasonable tempo?

Blizzard has been on this last decade a satelite company in terms of innovation and corporative practices (this goes from online card games, microtransactions, directed dopamine triggering game mechanics, RPG features, mobile games market; on all this they didn't dictate, they saw what worked before from other companies and used it, while also not getting their hands too dirty; but over those guideliness they added their excellent and notable design and lore and voila, you got a high quality product that is so distinguishable that almost appears as if they were the pioneers all along) so they are waiting for a less risk averse company to dictate or that atleast would immolates itself for the greater good to see what is worthy pursuing on regards of the correct way of exploiting a game's modding scene.

I don't think that the correct way (read: the way that will get my stocks high as fast as you can say "Immortal") is via Paid Mods, or by developing the World Editor (Reforged or not) unto a game engine itself so it reproduces value on its own (i'm saying this because there are lots of dudes that are kind of implicitly asking for this, but one can always dream).
I think the way is, basing on the HIVE user hiring analogy, is by passing rather abussive but lucrative licenses to certain projects (most likely projects that share some kind of Blizzard product placement fanatism, like a new WC3 custom campaign, a Blizzard themed TD with some strange feature, but that also don't collide too much with other Blizzard products like a custom card game would do) that will put Blizzard on the very confortable spot of a distributor of a brand new, fan based and created, but still Blizzard products and expansions. To quicken things up, as i said on the premise 3, i think they will implement a competitive ecosystem, like map rankings, etc., and some incentives so people work hard (before you think i'm crazy, if you go to the map development section you will find lots of dudes not respecting the authors time and interest, some even trying to push deadlines and such).

 

[neven1]

Wait , is someone advocating for paid mods? Who? How do you know?

 

[YourArthas]

How Blizzard Is Updating Warcraft III’s Fiction For Reforged

I'm not too keen on this news. I'm skeptically optimistic but it's hard.

They seem to really want to push forward on making this WoWcraft 3, and take out a lot of the legacy things like easter eggs and old jokes out of being updated.

My take out of this - We need to give constructive feedback where we can without jumping the gun and going full rant, because we know full well they don't listen to rants. It'll be difficult since this seems to be their 'vision' for WC3R....

Well this Christie Golden thing got me both concerned and hopeful , first thought is ofc 'here we go woman that destroyed WoW lore is here' but then they said ' biggest change is showing how Arthas got invincible or changing some of text' well then no 'wow looking' suramar, black citidel or draeneis cause those are alot more bigger changes that they should mention...

 

[Sieben]

Well this Christie Golden thing got me both concerned and hopeful , first thought is ofc 'here we go woman that destroyed WoW lore is here' but then they said ' biggest change is showing how Arthas got invincible or changing some of text' well then no 'wow looking' suramar, black citidel or draeneis cause those are alot more bigger changes that they should mention...

You may be right. To be honest, I don't mind if Blizzard adds a few new things, to enhance the original experience, provided the original style, atmosphere and lore are not altered too much. So this horse thing, if they put it in the game, is not so much of a problem, and could even be a nice addition.
About Suramar, Black Citadel etc, we can't tell yet. Maybe they didn't mention these big changes because they think it's too soon to make any announcement about them. Maybe it's still an early work in progress, or perhaps they're still figuring if/how they are going to do it. We'll just have to wait and see

 

[Warseeker]

One question, since they say custom campaigns will be compatible with Reforged, will the in-game cinematic still work also? I mean, from the Culling mission I've watched on Youtube, units/heroes doesn't seem to use portraits during cinematics anymore but rather like realistic graphism, so what I'm saying is : How would in-game cinematics work in Reforged for custom maps? Does that mean map makers or modelers will have to re-create models with talk animations like in WoW?

 

[Iliya]

Are you some sort of far seer? WoW is their main income.

That's untrue. Icefrog left because he wanted to make the game even better and have a job with it. Warcraft III's engine had limitations, the source code was not meant to be changed at will.

Most people would monetize if they had the proper number of viewers.

So many dedicated people here on Hive which don't leave. It's part of their hobbies. They don't do it for food. That would be wrong. Art for food usually doesn't bode well.
People who want to support art, they donate. Forcing them to buy it is wrong.

The first comment it's out of context and unrelated. This was before WoW got that famous paid off itself. IceFrog's dota and other cusotm maps brought millions in Warcraft 3 boosting Blizzard's sales and bringing attention to them. Blizzard profited off their hard work while Icefrog just got a spit on his face. I'm surprised people cheer for that yet have claim to have an anti-corporate agenda.


Icefrog left cause working day and night and satisfying millions of players for A spit on the face was not worth it. Blizzard already had the Warcraft 3 sales cashed in so they did not care about updating the game so they left it to rot where with a cosmetic Micro-transaction model you want to keep your game updated.

Yes people monetize once their work gets hugely popular.

"Forcing them to pay" WTF? How is allowing people to buy skins "forcing them to pay". That is the stupidest thing I heard. This is basically donating just you get a cosmetic to show off for it. The entire gaming market is based on this. I've explained the problems with Patreon. Name me one map maker with an actual working Patreon.

Also Art is hobby and meant to be free? That is the most illogical thing I've ever heard. Warcraft 3 is art so it should be free. All the games are art should so should be free. Moves, Music, shows All Free! I don't understand why people defend bug corporations for profiting yet not supporting a map maker making a wage on his work.


@Anaxie No I'm not from China, Just A warcraft 3 custom map fan who is pissed off that I get a Rotten broken Corpse for my favorite game while China has a thriving community with the game constantly being updated. We can do it far better than them. TBH I would not mind playing them instead of trash battle.net but I have ping issues if I do and can't understand their language.

Also the hell you mean this is something for East not West? Have you played any games? League, Dota, Fornite all popular games in West and I only see cosmetic price tags while them being most popular games ever. Paywall is just BS and a scam. You are paying for something you don't what it is, It could be total trash but you still have paid for it. Where with a cosmetic model you play the game first then you decide if it's worth to support it. Also Cosmetic models give the Devs an incentive to constantly update their game rather than taking the money and running while leaving the game to Rot as we saw with Warcraft 3.

 

[Wareditor]

I think we can all agree the new artworks are amazing.

 

[deepstrasz]

"Forcing them to pay" WTF? How is allowing people to buy skins "forcing them to pay".

I was referring to the maps/mods themselves and possibly new content but not skins.

That is the stupidest thing I heard. This is basically donating just you get a cosmetic to show off for it. The entire gaming market is based on this. I've explained the problems with Patreon. Name me one map maker with an actual working Patreon.

Who's going to stop them?

That is the most illogical thing I've ever heard.

I'm afraid you have much more to live through. You're misinterpreting what I am replying to you.

 

[Triceron]

Yes people monetize once their work gets hugely popular.

"Forcing them to pay" WTF? How is allowing people to buy skins "forcing them to pay". That is the stupidest thing I heard. This is basically donating just you get a cosmetic to show off for it. The entire gaming market is based on this. I've explained the problems with Patreon. Name me one map maker with an actual working Patreon.

Also Art is hobby and meant to be free? That is the most illogical thing I've ever heard. Warcraft 3 is art so it should be free. All the games are art should so should be free. Moves, Music, shows All Free! I don't understand why people defend bug corporations for profiting yet not supporting a map maker making a wage on his work.

Then you are coming at it from the wrong place. Its just as much a fallacy to believe napping and modding is a sustainable alternative to a paying job. It is not. In most cases, it will never be. Your expectations of satisfactory monetary reimbursement is unrealistic.

Im not wholy sure where you are coming from to say all this. Are you a mapper or modder? Are your expectations based solely on comparing to work done professionally? Tbh I make mods not to make money but to express my creativity and practice my art. Sharing it freely is my gift back to the community that makes it great. The mods I worked on that focused on money all got torn apart by internal politics. Once you monetize, it strains expectations.

 

[Almia]

Wow, seeing the old guys come back from their graves.

Now, all we need is Kael's ass back here.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

I think we can all agree the new artworks are amazing.

View attachment 309299

No, looks like 2 pics clamped together. Compare to this at battle.net front page.

 

[Dr. Benevolent Guy]

Hi, you don't need internet for the Blizzard Battle.net launcher to play single player, it hasn't been that way since I think the D3 complaints years ago. There's an offline mode.

Thank You for your kind reply sir. Now i am convinced to buy the pre-purchase. Thanks and more power.

Edit: Guys do you think there will be more campaigns added to the Reforged that is tailored to WOW Lore?
Hope they will add post-WOW up to Battle for Azeroth Campaign if they will even it means of paying in forms of DLC and I am really up for it.

 

[Iliya]

Then you are coming at it from the wrong place. Its just as much a fallacy to believe napping and modding is a sustainable alternative to a paying job. It is not. In most cases, it will never be. Your expectations of satisfactory monetary reimbursement is unrealistic.

Im not wholy sure where you are coming from to say all this. Are you a mapper or modder? Are your expectations based solely on comparing to work done professionally? Tbh I make mods not to make money but to express my creativity and practice my art. Sharing it freely is my gift back to the community that makes it great. The mods I worked on that focused on money all got torn apart by internal politics. Once you monetize, it strains expectations.

Yea in most cases never be and most will continue to map for free despite the ability to add cosmetic purchases. So it won't affect the majority of the community at all.

I know a bit about the editor but I'm not a mapper or modder. I'm just big custom map player who is sick of watching all the great and famous maps outsourced away from Warcraft 3 to steam or some cases hugely delayed on updates or outright abandoned despite massive demand. Meanwhile I'm searching in Graveyard of Battle.ent for custom maps I watch the custom map community flourish in China.

History and evidence has shown it's simple, once a map becomes popular, working on it becomes super tough, The map makers realize it's honestly not worth their time to work like free code monkeys to boost Blizzard's sales so they go to Steam or another platform where they get something for their work. What this does is make a huge Playerbase of Warcraft 3 follow them to do which in Turn kills Warcraft 3. Last time there were not many other engines or platforms to outsource to, This time there is plenty. If we don't support the popular custom maps, history will repeat itself with Reforge and the game will be dead once again after some years, This time even Netease's growth won't convince Blizzard.

 

[Anaxie]

Your profile says youre 20

You were shitting in diapers when WC3 released and you are talking about the game Warcraft 3 scene dying.

OKAY THEN

 

[Iliya]

Your profile says youre 20

You were shitting in diapers when WC3 released and you are talking about the game Warcraft 3 scene dying.

OKAY THEN

I've been playing this game since I was 7. I'm probably the last generation who touched Warcraft 3.

Also I did not say Warcraft 3 scene was dying. I said it's DEAD! 3500 Peak on day is DEAD by any standard. Compare that to 40,000 of Netease. Death will be the fate of the reforged too if it does not support its map makers, This time it will die a lot faster. There won't be A Dota making Warcraft 3 popularity rise this time while the graphics are now severely outdated for their time.

Custom maps are literally the only hope into making this game attract new players to be popular again otherwise remake will be just a quick nostalgia cash grab for players who can no longer be as active as they were in their childhood.

Graphics are outdated for a RTS (compare that to state of the art like TW Warhammer) where WC3 was exceptional on graphics on release. Story and Melee gameplay are outdated now where they used to be best on release. Dota, Legion TD and other popular custom maps are all ported steam where they were once part of this game and made it popular. Right now it seems like this game only offers nostalgia rewards and nothing new.

Reforged new custom maps will be the only thing that might make this popular again, however without proper support it won't happen or the map makers will just outsource once again, this time a lot easier. Leaving this game to offer nothing new for new players to even bother resulting in a quick death.

 

[Anaxie]

I've been playing this game since I was 7. I'm probably the last generation who touched Warcraft 3.

Also I did not say Warcraft 3 scene was dying. I said it's DEAD! 3500 Peak on day is DEAD by any standard. Compare that to 40,000 of Netease. Death will be the fate of the reforged too if it does not support its map makers, This time it will die a lot faster. There won't be A Dota making Warcraft 3 popularity rise this time while the graphics are now severely outdated for their time.

Custom maps are literally the only hope into making this game attract new players to be popular again otherwise remake will be just a quick nostalgia cash grab for players who can no longer be as active as they were in their childhood.

Graphics are outdated for a RTS (compare that to state of the art like TW Warhammer) where WC3 was exceptional on graphics on release. Story and Melee gameplay are outdated now where they used to be best on release. Dota, Legion TD and other popular custom maps are all ported steam where they were once part of this game and made it popular. Right now it seems like this game only offers nostalgia rewards and nothing new.

Reforged new custom maps will be the only thing that might make this popular again, however without proper support it won't happen or the map makers will just outsource once again, this time a lot easier. Leaving this game to offer nothing new for new players to even bother resulting in a quick death.

Id say the scene on Hive is lively enough for a 16 year old game. Most people like myself play offline components of the game.

If you are expecting Reforge to magically last 10/15 years if it had Netease implementation you are insane.

The VAST VAST possibly 95% of reforge purchases are going to be simply to replay the Vanilla Campaigns in the new graphics.

 

[Augustus]

Id say the scene on Hive is lively enough for a 16 year old game. Most people like myself play offline components of the game.

If you are expecting Reforge to magically last 10/15 years if it had Netease implementation you are insane.

The VAST VAST possibly 95% of reforge purchases are going to be simply to replay the Vanilla Campaigns in the new graphics.

I can say that's true. Grew up with all the WarCraft games and I play them mostly for the story and atmosphere. I don't do PVP in WoW and for me custom content for WC3 means high quality custom campaigns like Chasing the Dawn. I like DOTA too but I suck at competitive stuff and it really brings the worst in me.

 

[Augustus]

Man, I would love to see even the HOTS one.

 

[deepstrasz]

History and evidence has shown it's simple, once a map becomes popular, working on it becomes super tough, The map makers realize it's honestly not worth their time to work like free code monkeys to boost Blizzard's sales so they go to Steam or another platform where they get something for their work. What this does is make a huge Playerbase of Warcraft 3 follow them to do which in Turn kills Warcraft 3. Last time there were not many other engines or platforms to outsource to, This time there is plenty. If we don't support the popular custom maps, history will repeat itself with Reforge and the game will be dead once again after some years, This time even Netease's growth won't convince Blizzard.

Overdramatic. Nobody has to hurry. When updates come to a map they come. This demand you're writing about is like you're buying food or something. Frankly, people just need to be patient and in the mean time play something else, be it another game or other maps. Simple. This end of modding fear is only an exaggeration. Warcraft III has never died and guess what, it was not due to payed modding but to free hobbyists. So please, enough with this false revelation of yours.

Reforged new custom maps will be the only thing that might make this popular again, however without proper support it won't happen or the map makers will just outsource once again, this time a lot easier. Leaving this game to offer nothing new for new players to even bother resulting in a quick death.

The only support this game needs is for modders/mappers to have tools for map and resource creation and for ladder contests/games to be hosted regularly.