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Warcraft 3: Re-Launched? ⚡Or Warcraft 2?? ⚡️

Archian

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Signs of Warcraft RTS News Coming Up on Warcraft Direct

Blizzard Entertainment's Warcraft franchise appears to be hinting at new RTS-related developments, exciting fans who have long awaited fresh content. Upcoming announcements are expected during " Warcraft Direct " on Nov 13th, sparking speculation about a potential revival or addition to Warcraft's real-time strategy legacy, which has largely been inactive since Warcraft III Reforged . With Blizzard suggesting this focus, fans are hopeful for a blend of nostalgic elements and modern RTS gameplay innovations in whatever comes next for the beloved series.

This week, Blizzard updated its press site in celebration of the Warcraft franchise's 30th anniversary and World of Warcraft's 20th anniversary. Alongside these updates, they introduced a new category, “Warcraft (RTS),” represented by the 30th Anniversary logo. This addition hints that Blizzard may soon release new press material related to the Warcraft RTS series, signaling possible developments or future announcements in that genre.

But one of the strongest pillars of these hints is the "leak" that happened two weeks ago . During a brief period of time, the PTR for Warcraft III: Reforged was updated to version 2.0, build 22230. This "leak" all but confirms that Blizzard is working on a Warcraft III Reforged version 2.0 in some capacity.

For the full article and latest updates, you can check Wowhead here .
 
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Level 4
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I always remember one possible new feature they talked about was the ability to get DLC campaigns. This was pretty much wishful thinking but I was always hoping they would be campaigns based on past lore, like Rise of the Black Empire, War of the Shifting Sand or Three Hammers. That would also open up all kinds of new map tile sets, unit, creep and hero models, and abilities for online games. But once again, wishful thinking.
 
I always remember one possible new feature they talked about was the ability to get DLC campaigns. This was pretty much wishful thinking but I was always hoping they would be campaigns based on past lore, like Rise of the Black Empire, War of the Shifting Sand or Three Hammers. That would also open up all kinds of new map tile sets, unit, creep and hero models, and abilities for online games. But once again, wishful thinking.
I honestly really, really doubt there will be new campaigns. But if they did add new campaigns, they should start by giving modders the resources to bring their campaigns to a professional level and releasing them as official DLCs. On the other hand, I wouldn't want things that are free now to be pay-walled by Microsoft, so idk.
 
working on a Warcraft III Reforged version 2.0 in some capacity.
No. This is such a bad idea. Can I just say, "No?"
DLC campaigns. This was pretty much wishful thinking
No. You can't make Campaigns if your editor system is broken, and this company is very okay with the editor system being broken.

If you want downloadable content campaigns, you can get it today. Go and send @ShadiHD a $100 donation on paypal. Then, go and find the download link for CSW campaign, and download it and play it. That's how you get DLC! They were working on this for like 4 years since Reforged released, and Microsoft wasn't. Sometimes, the time that you put into something ends up equating to the quality of what you get out of it.

There are only 3 options that I can foresee from a Technology standpoint:
  1. Nothing happens
  2. Microsoft releases a new RTS such as "Warcraft 2 Reforged" that is made on the Starcraft 2 engine, with Orcs and Humans and new techtrees, so that Microsoft employees do not have to wade through the absolute spaghetti code of Reforged.
  3. Microsoft makes the "Reforged"/"Warcraft III" technology ecosystem substantially worse for its current users -- by attempting substantial changes to it -- because its technology is so old that no for-profit company employee could hope to have the time and energy to give the software technology the tender love and care it deserves
For the life of me I cannot seem to picture literally anything else that would happen here. Anybody who thinks that Phil Spencer is going to open Reforged World Editor and make an Anduin Wrynn vs the jailor campaign is off their rockers!!

So instead of trying to get excited, instead of trying to get inspired, we should think about how the net impact to us are either (1) nothing, or (2) nothing, or (3) very bad.

That means that either nothing is going to happen, or something very bad is going to happen. Now, we have @Archian saying that something is going to happen. What can we conclude from that?

So, here's a new idea, can we hijack this thread with discussions about how we are going to turtle through the storm? If this is a strategy game versus Phil Spencer and his minions, and they are all attacking our base, how do we respond?
 

Chaosy

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  1. Microsoft makes the "Reforged"/"Warcraft III" technology ecosystem substantially worse for its current users -- by attempting substantial changes to it -- because its technology is so old that no for-profit company employee could hope to have the time and energy to give the software technology the tender love and care it deserves
I think there is room for optimism. Microsoft maintains some pretty neat products in the development space which is somewhat related to what we might want in the modding community, native typescript support for example, a better editor?

Though I think it's somewhat unlikely I don't think it's fair to say it's impossible that they cannot make things better.
 

Remixer

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I have to admit that I think that these threads of pouring water on the wrong stones and I take all the hopes and dreams connected to this vague news with an overdose of skepticism. Why? There's plenty of reason and many people seem to hop on the hype train, obviously hoping for the ray of light. Sure, there is a theoretical chance that with a new team with their hands on, Reforged will get touched and polished, but as Retera pointed out above, it's hard to see the reason why they would go through the effort to do it, especially since it would be an extremely uncertain move to make in the first place.

Secondly, I think people are instantly aligning any Warcraft-related news that is not directly and only pointed at the other games of the franchise with Reforged (for some extremely weird reason I do not understand). I'll go through the arguments on the order of the WowHead article.

1) November Trading Post Rewards
I'm struggling to even understand how this is proof of Warcraft 3 getting attention - sure it's four races included in Warcraft 3... but the same races make appearances also before and after the said title, and there are more races to Warcraft 3 than these four. Well - even WowHead lists that his alone is not proof of any kind.

2) Mount Changes From Trading Post Promotion
Once again, it does not point toward Warcraft 3 in any way - the promotion could be from any source or action - heck, perhaps they roll out rewards for watching a stream?

3) 30th Anniversary Mounts
It's a big leap to claim that the word "chaos" is a reference to Reign of Chaos. I'd argue it's just a random name given, and if it is indeed a specifically picked reference, it would be more sensible to refer to the Age of Chaos, which would indeed be a more direct reference to Warcraft - Orcs and Humans (which was also specifically mentioned Blizzard in the news post - duh).

4) Warcraft 3 PTR "Leak"
Yeah, this is a solid argument. Version numbering of 2.0 is indeed very mysterious and interesting. Considering that all the patches together from Reign of Chaos to Frozen Throne to Reforged have only moved the version number by a mere 0.36 decimal, a jump to 2.0 seems absurd - what can explain this?

5) Blizzard Press Site
The mention of 'RTS' doesn't once again direct towards Warcraft 3 - but rather the genre itself and it would include the first installments of the franchise, which I think would be a more expected move - celebrate three decades of franchise history and bundle the original titles and make them available in a more modern way. The fact that it is specifically RTS, not Warcraft 3 or Reforged sort of gives the impression that it indeed is not Reforged.

6) Warcraft 30th Anniversary Key Art
I think this argument is the most flawed and it specifically points in the opposite direction - that the whole news is not about Reforged. Hearthstone, WoW, and Warcraft Rumble got their own specific cover-arts and the images are named accordingly (the games got even their own logos for the event) - the RTS section... did not and the image name (embedded in the website source elements) is titled just generic Anniversary, while the other games' arts are named after the specific games.

Summary:
Arguments 1 and 2 are complete nonsense and do not have anything to do with Reforged.
Argument 3 points towards the target game being one of the predecessors, not Warcraft 3.
Argument 4 - Yeah, solid - Warcraft 3 Reforged is being worked on internally - lets see what it means.
Arguments 5 and 6 point towards the conclusion that Blizzard is intentionally not mentioning/handling Reforged but avoiding it deliberately.

Thoughts:
Now, if a game studio avoids naming a title and deliberately avoid making any clear and specific references to it, I'd be more afraid than hopeful. Everybody knows the work on Reforged is on very shaky grounds: Mac-version doesn't even run, ladder is ran by third-party fanbase tools, the game is unstable, so is the editor and the feedback form from a year-ago left a lot of things to be 'improved'.

If Blizzard knew what the heck they were going to do with Reforged I would imagine they would be more transparent and clear about it - the silence speaks more than words.
 
a jump to 2.0 seems absurd - what can explain this?
Bad management. The same people who thought it was a good idea to replace Skype - a native Windows desktop application for internet chat -- with "Skype for Windows," an electron web app (like Reforged menu webapp replacing the flavorful 3D-accelerated Warcraft III Frozen Throne menu). And now, for some reason, no one uses Skype.

bundle the original titles and make them available in a more modern way.
Warcraft III and Frozen Throne were standard Windows executable applications that ran fine from 2002 until 2020, for a span of 18 years. Then, Reforged came along and made these launch "in a more modern way" by putting a DRM login advertisement wall between the user and the game. And the login page is even fake -- anyone can open CMD on Windows, go into the folder where the Reforged program stores the old Warcraft III.exe, and then they can add -launch to the .\Warcraft III.exe command, which will tell it to actually launch instead of redirecting to the "login portal" to spam the user with Call of Duty advertisements.

If they change these systems again to be "more modern" by making it now require even more steps, where they grace us with the honor of paying a monthly "Gamer Fee" for "Windows gaming" to get through a Microsoft Store menu, which then unlocks the Battle.net app login menu, which then eventually invokes .\Warcraft III.exe -launch -microsoft-store-says-ok-to-really-launch with a new argument -microsoft-store-says-okay-to-really-launch to modernize the game, I am definitely uninstalling at that point. Wow! So modern!
 

Remixer

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Bad management
Most likely the numbering is not following the same logic as previous versions.


Warcraft III and Frozen Throne were standard Windows executable applications that ran fine from 2002 until 2020, for a span of 18 years.
Indeed. The point I had that perhaps there is an incentive to tell the story of those games to more modern audience. Being comparably smaller games, it would not be as massive task as Reforging, while it would still completely explain the RTS section being included in the press.

In my opinion, the direct statement on Warcraft Orcs and Humans implies that Blizzard is planning to do something related to it.
 
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We should riot if they disappoint us with a nothingburger again.
boycott.jpg
And the login page is even fake -- anyone can open CMD on Windows, go into the folder where the Reforged program stores the old Warcraft III.exe, and then they can add -launch to the .\Warcraft III.exe command, which will tell it to actually launch instead of redirecting to the "login portal" to spam the user with Call of Duty advertisements.

Really? but I do get weird messages in-game. When I launch I usually get told I'm number 1 in queue a la WoW briefly before the menu comes up. Often when I try to test a map from WorldEdit I get locked in front of a login screen, and because I don't know my details off by heart I have to exit the game, relaunch from the blizzard BS so I'm logged in, then exit AGAIN and relaunch the test map from WorldEdit.

What do you think caused this?:
Singleplayer_host.jpg

Some more Reforged annoyances:

  • Even basic stuff like ui layout is borked
    • Why is Exit Game behind a sub menu, that is a tiny button at the bottom right?
    • Why isn't it either the bottom or top button, instead it's somewhere in the middle
      • Is this supposed to be some 'Dark Pattern' bullshit to make quitting harder? It's not like I'm gonna buy more non-existent cosmetics because I'm trapped in the damn game!
    • Why isn't load game at the top of the menu when you select single player?
    • Why are the saves defaulted to alphabetical? That has to be one of the most obvious things I can imagine to default them to most recent.
    • Why is the campaign difficulty behind another sub-menu?
  • I never noticed before but I think I'm getting a bug where health/mana panes stop showing above units. I don't like having them enabled constantly, but not only does Alt stop showing them for everything, they stop showing when I mouse over a unit. I'm having problems microing my units because I don't know which ones are getting focus-fired.
    • Is it possible this is caused by alt-tabbing?
    • It seems to work again sometimes but I don't know what fixes it...
  • Not just health/mana bars, at some other points, construction location outlines weren't showing, like I select build a farm, but then when you click where you want it, both the mouse and farm outline are invisible so I don't know where I'm placing it.
  • Then a little later I lost all mouseovers, couldn't see tooltips on items or abilities or anything.
    • Lightning struck, then tooltips and health panes came back.
 
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Level 19
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I think the reason for the jump to 2.0 is symbolic. It's meant to indicate "this is a new era for the game, a fresh start." Whether that holds true or not remains to be seen. I'll remain neutral until we see. I expect disappointment given the previous track record, but the new management makes me curious.
 
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My worst case scenario is this: They make a half-assed remake of WC 1 and 2 and make a few "fixes" that breaks CSW....I really highly doubt Blizzard (even old Blizzard) can top what the CSW team made...
 
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honestly i just wish these would stop making the THW frontpage because i dont think this shit is even worth discussing until there's something actually concrete

speculation =/= news
That's part of their plan really, this discussion generates some amount of hype for what could be.

I'm cautiously optimistic. If they can get the Diablo 2 Resurrected team to work on this we might have a winner.
 

Remixer

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That's part of their plan really, this discussion generates some amount of hype for what could be.
That would be terrifying plan. Considering how much their 'lets have the hype build up' has backfired on them, combined with the overwhelming uncertainty with the development, they would never want to cause rumor-based hype intentionally.
 
I think the reason for the jump to 2.0 is symbolic. It's meant to indicate "this is a new era for the game, a fresh start." Whether that holds true or not remains to be seen.
We know it does not hold true. If it was a fresh start, it wouldn't be Build Number 22000 or something. It would be build number 0, because it would start afresh. We actually do know, specifically, that that isn't happening.
My worst case scenario is this: They make a half-assed remake of WC 1 and 2 and make a few "fixes" that breaks CSW....I really highly doubt Blizzard (even old Blizzard) can top what the CSW team made...
That's your worst case scenario? Wow! You're extremely optimistic

I'll raise you one: what if they don't make any remake of WC 1 nor of WC 2. Then, they break CSW anyway, in a patch that does literally nothing, other than change the format of all models in the game and break all CSW custom PKBs or anything like that, and corrupt all the Reforged custom maps, which they already did idly in 2022 without caring, so it wouldn't even violate established precedent. Then CSW can spend months patching/reinventing their stuff to try to get it to work again. Is this not a worse case than your "worst" that you described?
And that is before I even get creative. If I want to get creative, what if build 22230 actually IS a fresh start like Homor was saying, and that patch replaces Reforged with a new game made on Starcraft 2 engine, so all custom Warcraft III maps are no longer supported. Then the developers will say, "Custom community will have to handle their own problems, we decided that Starcraft 2 engine actually runs better, so this creates a better Reforged game experience." Then, Reforged servers shut down and there is no official way to play any existing Frozen Throne custom maps. And this is just one more example of something that might be worse than your "worst case," right? Or would you prefer something like this over your "worst case?" If so, why?
If they can get the Diablo 2 Resurrected team to work on this we might have a winner.
1ab1e1b9-fd96-426d-b7d6-4d60e8294977_text.gif


You mean the people who decided to us the same PKB technology format as Reforged for their graphical update, but who don't face complaints about it because they killed modding by turning off LAN?

How is that BETTER than Reforged? Truly I tell you, I have had the one man on Earth who tries to mod Diablo 2 Resurrected reach out to me on Discord. And he wanted to know how to edit the Diablo 2 Resurrected particles using a similar style of hacking to what I put in the PKBlaster program for Reforged. I was mean to him. I told him that if his quest to mod a game that was designed not to be modded has brought him to me, as the last man on Earth who can help him, maybe it is time for me to stomp on his soul and just troll him. I was pretty mean. These are evil technologies created to be overcomplex for the reason of being overcomplex, so that people cannot modify them to make custom things. The only good thing the Diablo 2 Resurrected team did were the things they didn't do, which is to say, Diablo 2 was a great game - and they didn't do that much to it.

What planet do you live on where you think that the same people would make Reforged any better? Reforged is already Reforged. If you do nothing to it, like how they did nothing to Diablo 2, then Reforged would still be Reforged and have all the bugs. So, are you saying they should just throw Reforged in a fire and go back to Frozen Throne, and then make Frozen Throne upscaled in the style of Diablo 2 Resurrected? That is... that is surely a thought process that involves throwing literally all the custom folks on Hive Workshop under the bus but if you literally hate us, maybe this line of thinking could almost make sense. Reforged... basically is that, though.
 
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i'm not going literally insane, I'm fine. Whenever I need to relax, I listen beautiful AI-generated choirs of angels that sing for me

they understand it all, even if the humans dont get it

EDIT:
Explicit content warning for the attachment
 

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Level 47
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I'll send you a $100 amazon gift card if you can perfectly change the color of Fireball from orange to green like in this video, on D2R, in the next two days. (including the lights on the ground, and all) (By 3:30 PM EST on Saturday Nov 2, 2024).
here you go, perfectly changed color from orange to green, piece of cake
1730387902388.png
send the money to this guy, sounds like he really needs it
 
Can you send me the ingame mod files you used so I can use them on my D2R ingame too? wanted to make sure it wasn't just photoshop or something

( :p but seriously, maybe send me that suggestion again saturday after the award is unclaimed)

Edit:

It would appear that forum moderation has removed my comments describing my rationale for believing that there is something wrong with Diablo 2 Resurrected. So, to anyone who reads this far and is confused by something that may sound off topic, suffice it to say that I am quite convinced that modding Diablo 2 Resurrected is harder than modding Reforged, and thus that I do not want the Diablo 2 Resurrected developers to remake Reforged using the exact technology of Diablo 2 Resurrected. That is my personal opinion. It is not anyone else's opinion, and it may be entirely inaccurate.
 
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Level 9
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@Retera

Calm down, I don't know all this technical stuff. I just said what I was worried about, namely breaking CSW for an inferior remake. CSW is the sole reason I bought Reforged again and why I'm even interested in this universe now that the lore is all fucked up and weird. THIS is now my headcanon, meaning I'm just going to consider it the official lore from now on. Now that you put it that way, it sounds even worse.

I mentioned D2R because it was a successful graphical remake. I didn't think about it breaking mods, which it did...
 
Calm down, I don't know all this technical stuff.
In my mind, I was calm. I simply meant to express that you are not alone. No one knows the technical stuff, because typically with computers we can invent any level of depth of technical stuff that we want. So, in my opinion, the problem with modding sometimes is not that you don't know, but rather that no one knows. And perhaps that it was invented expressly to be that way.

The Frozen Throne game in 2005 released publicly the 3DS Max export script used to make the official game models. Blizzard was OK with providing modding the tools to do this.

But in 2020 instead of doing that, before Reforged Beta went live some Russian hackers got in and infiltrated the Activision servers and got the Reforged Beta in advance of it being published intentionally. Then they published it on a torrent, which was downloaded by some folks, who sent Reforged graphics model files to an Israeli man, who reverse engineered the files and then sent me the specifications, which I then incorporated into Retera Model Studio so that it was first to market editing Reforged models. That's why there's a video of me making custom Reforged model files on my YouTube channel in 2019 at the same time as Blizzcon 2019, which doesn't make any sense chronologically.

Then when CSW wanted to make their project, they were reaching out to me asking if they could pay me to fix Retera Model Studio so it was less broken, expressing their suffering. I believe the phrase used was, "it is like trying to clean throat through the rear," or something like this. Maybe I am mis-remembering or mis-translating. But I was lazy and did not help them, and in the end, they paid someone who didn't even have Reforged on their computer to do software upgrades to my model editor, so that at great cost to themselves and their time they could eventually hack Reforged models to make decent graphics.

Meanwhile, Activision sat and squandered the knowledge and technology for how Reforged graphics were originally made, until 2022 when they released a patch that changed the format of all models in the entire Reforged game, even the classic models, breaking any program that would try to load them, including Retera Model Studio, at which point I did a big refactor to parse their new format. And almost nobody knows about that big refactor, because I designed the new version of Retera Model Studio to pretend as if nothing changed, so we could keep pretending that we have a modding community or that it was ever reasonable to make custom graphics on Reforged.

But I really think that the hostile levels of apathy of this company and its management is quite real. And so, I apologize if I come across as not calmed down, or as somehow unreasonable. I don't mean to stop anyone from calming down, and I don't mean to make you upset. But essentially I think that you are incorrect. You can look at CSW and tell yourself, "oh that's cool, these guys just used World Editor, and Activision would be crazy to break what they created." But under the hood I think it's a lot different than that. The Blizzard brand of people, like the ones who published Frozen Throne art tools in 2005 to support the modding, are gone from this company. And there's a financial incentive for them not to be like that, and maybe to hate us. There were some people working on Reforged who pushed back against this financial incentive, and caused Reforged to be as modular as it is and forced their managers to allow W3Champions, and some other things. Now, those people who cared in that form, have been sacked. They were sacked many years ago.

So, it's not really that I mean to be upset at all. But I think that CSW is going to be destroyed, along with other projects like it, with a high degree of likelihood. And I'm saying this without any insider information, so we can all hope that I am wrong, but it is what I believe. It is also what I have on my personal website Warsmash.net, and I have had it on there for months or years mentioning CSW specifically - as something that would eventually be destroyed by Activision Microsoft, without them even thinking about it, no hard feelings, just because of the hostile levels of apathy.

This isn't really meant to be unsettling or to stop us from calming down. I hope that you have a very nice day. But this is how I see the world.
 
said retera
i like you. back when I had multiple accounts, I have a feeling on one of those accounts, you were my friend

They want me to be hyped. Instead, I want to live again, and watch the sun come up in the morning.
 
I'm so excited, maybe more than I should be
Okay. I'm not excited for the future of Microsoft's intervention, but it's fun to have folks like you to chat with about WC3 related topics, so that I can pretend my favorite hobby is meaningful to other people. So, thanks.
 
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Yep, looks like Activision Blizzard wanted to completely destroy the Classic mode of Warcraft III.

New shitty game engine, older maps being incompatible, nasty anti-cheat system like Valorant which obviously made such map hacking tools unusable, among the other things.

Oh, and forgot to mention out that they wanted to update its system requirement for Reforged to make this game playable with powerful system and Windows 10/11 (like D2R).
 
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