Techtree Contest #12 - Theme Discussion

[Spellbound]

The last techtree contest was a while back and I figured it could be time for a new one. We had an advanced techtree contest, which was chiefly about finishing an existing race but those require... existing material. So, let's make new material!

Some ideas to what theme this latest contest could be about:

• Butterfly Effect: an event in the past has changed! The timeline has shifted, and so have the races that inhabit it. Reinterpret one of the vanilla races to match this deviation from vanilla story. Warlords of Draenor is a prime example of Butterfly Effect.
• Creep races: Pick a creep in wc3 and give it its own faction. Eg: Faceless techtree, Satyr tectree, Furbolg techtree, etc.
• Mirrorverse: The Alliance becomes an evil, tyrannical empire that witch-hunts all practitioners of magic; the Night Elves are sadistic warlocks and industrialists; Ner'zhul grants the fallen the chance for revenge and peace by reanimating them with their minds intact. Flip a faction on its head and reinterpret it as its polar opposite, whether ideologically, visually, or both.

Additionally, should the contest be single-participant, team-based, or both (eg, optionally paired)? Please provide feedback.

Previous themes

#11 - Techno-magic
#10 - Mythology
#9 - Biome
#8 - Seal of the Magus
#7 - Super Unit
#6 - No Imports
#5 - Innovation
#4 - Improved Melee
#3 - Mini Melee Race ?
#2 - n/a
#1 - n/a

 

[Wareditor]

I like mirrorverse. I want to see some hapy, friendly ghouls.
While your ideas are more lore centered, I thought I should bring some gameplay centered ideas:

• No buildings: Create a techtree without using a single building. Get creative.
• No Units: create a techtree without using a single unit. Get creative.
• Evolution: This is all about how you can build a whole techtree starting from one unit and one building. You are only allowed to have one single base unit and one single base building. Meaning that you can only build one type of building and only produce one type of unit. However,upgrades and transforming units are allowed.

 

[Spellbound]

Oooh, those all sound intriguing! Evolution, particularly, could spawn some very interesting results. Worth considering.

 

[Retera]

Maybe we could do a pick-one-of-each for the lore theme, and the functionality theme?

 

[Spellbound]

Hmm, that could unintentionally cause too much complexity and scare potential participants off. We should discuss this further.

 

[Retera]

Interesting... Maybe so. What do you think is a good way to simplify?

 

[GhostThruster]

IMO a functionality theme, at least as crazy as the examples given, goes inherently against what a Techtree contest is (and thus far has been). Techtree implies a race design that fits within a Warcraft 3 context.

Making a race with no buildings, or no units etc. makes it impossible to fit into Warcraft 3. Now, if this were a "Faction Design for Hypothetical RTS" contest, I would say such themes are fine. It's not.

The last time we had a gameplay theme was "Super Unit", and that contest had a lot of room for improvement.
In general, I feel such these often promote less creativity in design than when the functionality is open-ended.

 

[Kyrbi0]

IMO a functionality theme, at least as crazy as the examples given, goes inherently against what a Techtree contest is (and thus far has been). Techtree implies a race design that fits within a Warcraft 3 context.

Making a race with no buildings, or no units etc. makes it impossible to fit into Warcraft 3. Now, if this were a "Faction Design for Hypothetical RTS" contest, I would say such themes are fine. It's not.

The last time we had a gameplay theme was "Super Unit", and that contest had a lot of room for improvement.
In general, I feel such these often promote less creativity in design than when the functionality is open-ended.

I might argue against that point, but it serves me well, so I shan't. : ) I think it should be explicitly defined in every Contest, anyway, what is being expected (and, to the extent possible, what that means (i.e. "this is a Contest to create a custom Techtree built to 'fit into' the standard game alongside the the ladder 4: that means X, Y, Z, etc etc")).

/cueTechtreeWarsOf'14

 

[Retera]

I find the '14 link there inspiring, and I'm going to have to sit down again when I have even more time and read through it all.

Perhaps I was mistaken, but when attempting to balance the Zear Fallen in Heaven's Fall it felt to me to be like a standard Warcraft III race despite having Wagons rather than Buildings.
Indeed, does the concept of "no buildings" really mean you have to break form? What if you still had 10-11 things which sold items or produced other units in mass for a cost, and then the military units and heroes. Theoretically, you could do this in a way that still held the same "form" (number of casters with upgrades, number of flying units, number of heroes) while being uniquely different.

But I see your point, at the same time. I just got a little worried with Heaven's Fall as time went on that the race design went from being focused on custom spells and unit mechanics to being a bunch of art and assets slapped on the Orcs again, and again, and again. It's a delicate balance.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I find the '14 link there inspiring, and I'm going to have to sit down again when I have even more time and read through it all.

Ha! Please do. I mostly just linked it to give @GhostThruster PTSD. ; ) But read the topic as a whole to get the proper context.

 

[Spellbound]

It certainly started out as such but I find it can be interesting to challenge modders in new ways than to just ask them to re-theme something. I've got nothing against re-themes, don't get me wrong, but shutting off a whole side of race-building seems... shortsighted. That being said I wouldn't be against breaking up the Techtree contest into different categories if anyone besides a handful of modders cared about them (this entire contest needs more exposure). We could potentially fragment the techtree contest into 2 different categories (Generic and Experimental) and pray we get more than a cursory nod of curiosity.

 

[GhostThruster]

Tbh if you want to try an "experimental" contest out, go for it. My opinion is of little merit, as either way I won't participate.

However, I firmly believe that drastic gameplay-based themes will result in poorly balanced & poorly thought-out techtrees.

Consider that "generic" contests also allow you to create a race with no buildings, no units etc. - the difference is these mechanics aren't forced upon the entrant. I'd like to believe the only reason people don't do it is because such wacky races just don't belong alongside the Wc3 ones.

@Kyrbi0 you and I had the same goals, but wanted different means to acheive it. I still don't believe in design restrictions that force either standardisation or experimentalism.

 

[Spellbound]

Hmm, you make a good point. I guess if someone wants to make a themed race with no buildings is up to them.

We still need more suggestions.

 

[Wareditor]

However, I firmly believe that drastic gameplay-based themes will result in poorly balanced & poorly thought-out techtrees.

I agree that it requires more skill to do something different that can be interesting and feel well to play. However balance is nonsensical to talk about when having only one techtree of that type, you wouldn't be able to compare it to anything else. Of course inner balance is important (a unit that is useless mathematically in a race), but that's more about good design in my opinion.

Of course in any contest you could impose limitations on yourself. However, some ideas seem at first impossible and many people just refuse them right away. In the situation of a contest, participants have to dig deeper and often they find gold. I am not trying to defend my propositions here, even if I stand by them. I am saying that after 15 years, maybe we should be open to new, risky themes that goes away from our standard understanding of melee.

just don't belong alongside the Wc3 ones.

Modding isn't restrained to making similar content to the base game.

 

[GhostThruster]

I am not trying to defend my propositions here, even if I stand by them. I am saying that after 15 years, maybe we should be open to new, risky themes that goes away from our standard understanding of melee.

Modding isn't restrained to making similar content to the base game.

We did once. Check out the "Super Unit" techtree contest.

We're talking techtree contests, not modding as a whole. With that same statement, you could argue that a Footman wars map could be submitted as a techtree entry.

Before this spirals into a 10 page war like the '14 contest wars, we can just agree to disagree. I have no real stake in the argument, and I'm not against you guys trying a functionality theme. My one suggestion might be to tone their extremeness down a bit, so that they are more along the lines of:
- Alternate production - find a way to design a race that doesn't train units from buildings the normal way.
- Combat Evolved - include a non-unit unit that can be utilised actively in combat e.g. a mobile building, or a race that uses items to summom wards that attack.
- Evolution, but not too much - design a race whose mechanics emphasise constant improvement, natural selection or unit "speciation". E.g. units that upgrade into other units, buildings that do the same, units that combine to evolve (like Archons).

 

[Chaosy]

I am sorta interested.

I think I can create some pretty fancy stuff but I got absolutely zero gameplay knowledge to balance anything.
So I feel like it might not really be for me x)

 

[Retera]

What if we made a contest where the theme was Dedication and so, as a result, you were scored on whether you posted one new techtree item that you had created -- at least once every three or so days?
This would stop people like me from joining in the last week and pretending they could create something reasonable, requiring instead a certain level of joyful dedication to the ongoing fun of modding.

Subcategories of themes could be Loyalty, Lawfulness, etc
I'm just throwing an idea at the wall.

 

[Kyrbi0]

^Love it

//EDIT// Also I hate it & I would fail it.

 

[Spellbound]

@Retera I know you were joking but those terms remind me of the Seal of the Magus contest where races had to be built around a term that had a philosophy to it.

We could potentially try something like that, so have 5 words like Lawfulness, Iconoclasm, Disarray, Penitence and Openness, and make a race based on ONE of these words. They may or may not be accompanied with a description.

Thoughts?

 

[Gyrosphinx]

I like the idea of making a race based on one of several words. I also do like the mirrorverse idea.

As for the gameplay-ideas, maybe make a list of a few of those as well? To be selected as diversifiers?

 

[Kyrbi0]

@Retera I know you were joking but those terms remind me of the Seal of the Magus contest where races had to be built around a term that had a philosophy to it.

We could potentially try something like that, so have 5 words like Lawfulness, Iconoclasm, Disarray, Penitence and Openness, and make a race based on ONE of these words. They may or may not be accompanied with a description.

Thoughts?

OK now I can finally speak up; statute of limitations & all that mirite?

Basically if you do any reading on that SotM topic you keep linking, you'll see I'm not a stranger to it; nor a proponent. Actually, I really loved the idea as well... But what really got me is just how poorly put together it all was. The 5 'seals' were all super-random, arbitrarily-chosen, and by Pharaoh's own admission they (& the descriptions, especially) were thought of at the last second. It was... A mess.

And what kills me is the idea is fantastic, with the proper choices to choose from. It favorably reminded me of the fantastic Ravnica setting from MtG, what with the 10 Guilds, all stemming from the socio-philosophical intersections of the 5 "Colors" of Mana in the MtG Universe (SOOO much to talk about there, I'm just gonna stop there)... In fact, I would love to see a Contest just straight going off of MtG's Color Pie and/or Ravnican Guilds. Just solid awexome.

That all being said. Please don't just re-do Seals of the Magus, without at least changing the 'Seals' to be something sensical.

 

[Gyrosphinx]

And what kills me is the idea is fantastic, with the proper choices to choose from. It favorably reminded me of the fantastic Ravnica setting from MtG, what with the 10 Guilds, all stemming from the socio-philosophical intersections of the 5 "Colors" of Mana in the MtG Universe (SOOO much to talk about there, I'm just gonna stop there)... In fact, I would love to see a Contest just straight going off of MtG's Color Pie and/or Ravnican Guilds. Just solid awexome.

That would indeed be pretty cool.

 

[Spellbound]

OK now I can finally speak up; statute of limitations & all that mirite?

Basically if you do any reading on that SotM topic you keep linking, you'll see I'm not a stranger to it; nor a proponent. Actually, I really loved the idea as well... But what really got me is just how poorly put together it all was. The 5 'seals' were all super-random, arbitrarily-chosen, and by Pharaoh's own admission they (& the descriptions, especially) were thought of at the last second. It was... A mess.

And what kills me is the idea is fantastic, with the proper choices to choose from. It favorably reminded me of the fantastic Ravnica setting from MtG, what with the 10 Guilds, all stemming from the socio-philosophical intersections of the 5 "Colors" of Mana in the MtG Universe (SOOO much to talk about there, I'm just gonna stop there)... In fact, I would love to see a Contest just straight going off of MtG's Color Pie and/or Ravnican Guilds. Just solid awexome.

That all being said. Please don't just re-do Seals of the Magus, without at least changing the 'Seals' to be something sensical.

That's the point of this thread - to discuss these things. We can make it sensical if you want to.

@Gyrosphinx so maybe something like a separate poll to vote on mechanics?

 

[Gyrosphinx]

Maybe a list of three to five mechanical diversifiers, of which at least one must be present in the race? Maybe not as extreme as 'no buildings' or 'no units', but somewhere in between, to challenge our creativity.

 

[GhostThruster]

OK now I can finally speak up; statute of limitations & all that mirite?

Basically if you do any reading on that SotM topic you keep linking, you'll see I'm not a stranger to it; nor a proponent. Actually, I really loved the idea as well... But what really got me is just how poorly put together it all was. The 5 'seals' were all super-random, arbitrarily-chosen, and by Pharaoh's own admission they (& the descriptions, especially) were thought of at the last second. It was... A mess.

And what kills me is the idea is fantastic, with the proper choices to choose from. It favorably reminded me of the fantastic Ravnica setting from MtG, what with the 10 Guilds, all stemming from the socio-philosophical intersections of the 5 "Colors" of Mana in the MtG Universe (SOOO much to talk about there, I'm just gonna stop there)... In fact, I would love to see a Contest just straight going off of MtG's Color Pie and/or Ravnican Guilds. Just solid awexome.

That all being said. Please don't just re-do Seals of the Magus, without at least changing the 'Seals' to be something sensical.

MTG colours would be a cool theme!

Would need a short description for each though, as not everyone is familiar with them.

 

[Kyrbi0]

MTG colours would be a cool theme!

Would need a short description for each though, as not everyone is familiar with them.

Absolutely. In fact, just like how WotC had find new & inventive ways to engage their glorious Color Pie, I feel like *several* Congrats could cover the topic.

And of course, definitely.

 

[Wareditor]

I really like MTG color system. It's very beautiful design wise. It would be interesting to see it transcribed into a Warcraft 3 techtree.
However I feel that you would need to create 5 techtrees to really pay tribute to it, as where the color pie shine is in the interactions of the colors with each other. One color doesn't really make sense in a vacuum in my opinion.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I really like MTG color system. It's very beautiful design wise. It would be interesting to see it transcribed into a Warcraft 3 techtree.
However I feel that you would need to create 5 techtrees to really pay tribute to it, as where the color pie shine is in the interactions of the colors with each other. One color doesn't really make sense in a vacuum in my opinion.

Sure, sure; well, like I was saying, we'd focus on the connections; rather than just doing straight "Color Pie", we'd do, say, Ravnica (2 color guilds), Alara (3 color shards), or Tarkir (3 color wedges). And then we could do all of those again, this time *avoiding* the MtG interpretation & coming up with our own.

 

[GhostThruster]

We could allow a techtree to be comprised of multiple colours, just like MTG decks can be.

However, I think individual colours have enough unique characteristics to allow for a design solely based on one.

 

[Spellbound]

[Redacted because I can't fucking read]

 

[Gyrosphinx]

As I understood it, the idea here was not to use an existing MtG-multiverse, but to use the concept of MtG's colours. That leaves a lot of freedom on how to interpret each concept.

 

[Spellbound]

Hmm, not sure how I missed all that. I was blindsided by MtG! xD

 

[Retera]

Were The Seal of Magus seals so bad? That was my first techtree contest, when I created the S.E.N.T.I.N.E.L., and I had fun with it even if behind the scenes the seals were invented in a shallow way. They were simple enough that it seemed like I totally got away with making whatever race I wanted, and was able to fit it into the Seal theme.

Spoiler: Techtree Contest 8 Mod

 

[Kyrbi0]

Were The Seal of Magus seals so bad? That was my first techtree contest, when I created the S.E.N.T.I.N.E.L., and I had fun with it even if behind the scenes the seals were invented in a shallow way. They were simple enough that it seemed like I totally got away with making whatever race I wanted, and was able to fit it into the Seal theme.

Spoiler: Techtree Contest 8 Mod

View attachment 292640

I don't want to beat a dead horse; you can all see my responses in the thread. Suffice it to say I felt it was shamefully shallow & of incredibly poor construction; my offers to help rewrite things went un-heeded.

Even if we don't go for straight-MtG or MtG-related, I could come up with a better series (though to be frank anything I come up with would be MtG-inspired, lol).

~~~

It was successful, in that people made entries & somebody won. But was it meaningful? On a deeper, more philosophic level, I don't think so.

 

[Retera]

We already have a 5 part color wheel

Human - White
Orc - Red
Undead - Black
Night Elf - Green
Naga - Blue

(Edit: I'm being a bit of a troll here, to continue causing thoughtful discussion)

 

[GhostThruster]

IMO the seals in that contest were both oddly vague yet contradictory in very specific ways. There was one that was about cowardice, but strategy as well or something.

 

[Kyrbi0]

IMO the seals in that contest were both oddly vague yet contradictory in very specific ways. There was one that was about cowardice, but strategy as well or something.

 

[Retera]

Maybe I was just having fun making the SENTINEL.

I do find it interesting that you could at least try to apply the colors of magic to the "5" races in the Frozen Throne (albeit Naga is incomplete)

Maybe the theme could be that the contestant must choose to blend two of five:

Spoiler: From MTG wiki

• White
  
  : Peace, law, structured, selflessness, equality[5]
• Blue
  
  : Knowledge, deceit, cautious, deliberate, perfecting[6]
• Black
  
  : Power, self-interest, death, sacrifice, uninhibited[7]
• Red
  
  : Freedom, emotion, active, impulsive, destructive[8]
• Green
  
  : Nature, wildlife, connected, spiritual, tradition[9]

White - Upgrades, healing spells, conversion spells, use of units of equal social status who are enhanced by auras or buffs
Blue - Arcane, circumstantial control spells like Aerial Shackles, Banish, Blink, Silence, etc
Black - Necromancy and sacrifice, use of corpses as a resource or spell component, death, etc
Red - General rush tactics, direct damage spells, massing of many small cheap units, etc
Green - Larger beefier units, use of trees as a resource or spell component such as Eat Tree and War Club

And what if we just reinterpret the mtg thing until we have five theme categories that are actually RTS specific, of which the user is supposed to blend 2, and then we just drop the MtG association for people who that's a turn-off for?

 

[Gyrosphinx]

I'd be happy just leaving the colours, with definitions as it is, but if we can reach a good reinterpretation that is fine as well.

blend two of five sounds like a good theme.

 

[Retera]

If each new techtree must be a combination of 2 chosen themes, what if we make it a team contest where each team has 2 people, and each person works on things of one theme, then they combine their work?

 

[Yours Truly]

Team contest rarely works spiffingly ,especially a techtree contest. It's not something I would consider doing anyway.

Now ,MTG-wise, I know nothing.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Team contest rarely works spiffingly ,especially a techtree contest. It's not something I would consider doing anyway.

Now ,MTG-wise, I know nothing.

Are you kidding? If the last Hero Contest, last Team Contest, and other Contests (Wc3C) are any evidence, it's that they work rather well! It's all about communication (within teams & between Host and teams) and planning (both the entries & the Contest itself).

There are definitely struggles to overcome, and I'm not saying I agree with it for a Techtree Contest, but still; have a little faith. : )

~

Also, not knowing about MtG is fine; Retera's links & summaries are precisely on point. Speaking of which, @Retera , have some thoughts on your post (missing the 'iconic/archetypical creatures') but generally very positive. Some other time.

 

[Spellbound]

Techtrees demand a lot of work. I know that talking to strangers is not easy and one person will always want their ideas to be the ones that come out on top but the fact is that if you delegate work properly and communicate, you can make it work.

 

[Hantoo]

im not very famillar with techtree but
What about Techtree with Alien Races? Or some sort of Space battle-ish stuff?
Or
"Goes Prehistoric" where design some caveman race?


Or just do a Troll Techtree XD

 

[Kyrbi0]

Or just do a Troll Techtree XD

~~~

I have been asked to "pick one" for the MtG plan. And while it's a tough decision, and lots of great options exist, I'm gonna go for the low-hanging fruit & strongly suggest the guilds ofRavnica.

Each of the ten guilds is a different sociopolitical faction that each make up the different parts of the working world-city of Ravnica. Each are aligned with (& flavored in line with) two Colors of Magic, as described by Retera.

Using: (W)hite, Bl(U)e, (B)lack, (R)ed, (G)reen

Colors	Name	Societal Role	Stuff
WU	Azorius Senate	Ravnica's government and legal sector.	STUFF
UB	House Dimir	Ravnica's couriers, information brokers, and librarians.	STUFF
BR	Cult of Rakdos	Ravnica's entertainment, food industry, mining, and other blue-collar manual labor and pink-collar service sectors.	STUFF
RG	Gruul Clans	Ravnica's foresters, gamekeepers, park rangers, wildlife officers, and wildskeepers.	STUFF
WG	Selesnya Conclave	Conservationists and charities, as well as a nature cult that competes with the Orzhova faith.	STUFF
WB	Orzhov Syndicate	Ravnica's dominant religious order, as well as its largest bank.	STUFF
UR	Izzet League	Ravnica's formative and physical scientists and engineers.	STUFF
BG	Golgari Swarm	Ravnica's agricultural and waste management sectors.	STUFF
WR	Boros Legion	Ravnica's security force, constabulary, and standing army.	STUFF
UG	Simic Combine	Ravnica's life scientists and conservationists.	STUFF

More later. Read the links for a spoiler.

 

[Retera]

In your table, Azorius says WB but it should be WU.

 

[Astaroth Zion]

I love MTG, and I think that a contest where you could freely pick 1 gild and follow its core philosophy could be really enjoyable.

To give my 2 cents, I will look for my old MTG Ravnica cards and Lore Packs and try to synthesis the core philosophy of each guild.

 

[Yours Truly]

Well this is certainly something else. I had to read more about the guilds just so I can think of something that may actually fit as a techtree. What's with the STUFF column though?

Just curious, something like the Cult of Rakdos, a guild primarily focusing on manual labor,food stocks and court-like services, just seems kinda off to be a warring race. Still, I don't know much about these MtG things. Need to give it another read some time.

 

[Retera]

You make all of it sound like so much effort. I figure I can just Google a picture of some Guild character, and make some custom unit types. Isn't the point to have fun?

And to win at having fun, since it's a competition...

 

[GhostThruster]

Since no one is giving their spin on it...

MTG Theme Idea: contestants create a techtree that embodies 1 or more colours out of the following.

White: exemplifies the ideals of order, harmony and consistency.
Black: embodies the essences of death, decay and the horrors of the unknown.
Red: characterized by the chaotic & fiery nature of its creatures, magic & firebrands.
Blue: represents the pursuit of all knowledge, mysticism and the arcane.
Green: personifies that in the natural world which regenerates, and grows ever stronger.

It should be noted that neither of the colours enforce a certain morality on a race e.g. you could easily have an oppressive, authoritarian faction under the "White" colour. Nor do the colours necessarily enforce a certain "setting" e.g. though Green is associated with nature, you could have a technologically advanced race whose gameplay emphasises growth and regeneration.