Techtree Contest #12 - Theme Discussion

[Spellbound]

I think we should probably enforce a limit as to how many colours you should be able to combine. Otherwise you'll just get a hodge-podge of everything. IMO 2 colours is a good limit but I guess there's an argument to be made for 3 colours?

We could also switch some words with other, more general terms like 'passion' instead of fiery (so the colour Red isn't immediately associated with fire - I know 'fiery' doesn't specifically mean 'fire', but it carries the word with it nevertheless) and replace death and decay with cruelty and stagnation (an aspect of traditionalism, maybe?). Thoughts?

 

[Kyrbi0]

Since no one is giving their spin on it...

Not everyone has as much free time as you, man.

; )

~~~

I think we should probably enforce a limit as to how many colours you should be able to combine. Otherwise you'll just get a hodge-podge of everything. IMO 2 colours is a good limit but I guess there's an argument to be made for 3 colours?

I think a degree of consistency is ideal for a well-formed Contest. So either everyone does 1 Color, or everyone does 2 Color-pairs, or everyone does 3 Color-wedges/shards. Mixing & matching is a recipe for DEATH poor Judging circumstances & an uneven field.

Doing this also helps people 'get a handle' on what is expected of them, and what they expect to see in others. Basically, the existing archetypes (MtG's 2-color Guilds (Ravnica), 3-color Shards (Alara), or 3-color Wedges (Tarkir)) would stand as excellent 'starting points' for a custom race, while not crimping anyone else who wished to interpret the Color-philosophy-interactions as they chose.
(The same is true for single-color; each of us would be able to look at the same set of guidelines (the Color Wheel infographics I'm collating) and know a good place to start/end.)

I'm in the middle of the aforementioned process (have about a dozen tabs open for this alone), but unfortunately I've got minutes before I have to head into work for the evening, so I'm a little stuck.

I guess for starters, lemme post an infographic or two & you guys tell me if it clears things up for you/explains things well enough for starters:

No Reading Required! Just images. Lemme know.

 

[Spellbound]

I feel like this is way too much information (the last image could be good though). You need this thing to be digestible, and all those colour wheel with tiny text and pentagrams is not making it easy at all. I think Ghost's concise descriptors are good enough (they could be expanded a smidge) but imo I think you're right about enforcing colour count to either 1, 2 or 3. That being said, what is the difference b/w a Shard and a Wedge?

 

[Kyrbi0]

I feel like this is way too much information (the last image could be good though). You need this thing to be digestible, and all those colour wheel with tiny text and pentagrams is not making it easy at all.

Even the images... sigh.

The idea is "scalable information". We would only present 1-2 images, but provide links to more & to all the extensive documentation on the subject. If someone wants to dive deeper into their chosen color(s), they can.

So you like the last one? Urgh, my least favorite... It's probably a decent fit for a game, though (which this is).

However, the middle one (with alpha/clear background) combines the "one sentence summary" bit that GhostThruster is so intent on (Goal & Method for each Color) with all-important Keywords that delineate the various relationships between the Colors (which, honestly, isn't all that important until we start to look at more-than-one Color).

I think Ghost's concise descriptors are good enough (they could be expanded a smidge)

Working on it...

but imo I think you're right about enforcing colour count to either 1, 2 or 3. That being said, what is the difference b/w a Shard and a Wedge?

Both are 3-Color combinations, but of course 5 colors can be broken into 3 in two different ways:
Shards are a central color & it's two Allied Colors (e.g. White, next to both Green & Blue; known as "Bant"), from the Alara block. You look at the interaction of the primary color with it's two allies to decide what they will be like.

Wedges, on the other hand, are two Allied color & their shared Enemy color (e.g. Blue & Black, with Green as their shared Enemy; known as "Sultai"), from the Tarkir block. These are perhaps the most interesting, as the interplay between two Enemy colors is most fascinating to me, and that interplay is *doubled* in the Wedge. The 'primary' color is one of the Allied ones.

And the cool thing is, we can do variants of those for different challenges; say we do Wedges but instead of focusing on the Allied Color pair we focus on the Enemy Color (e.g. Red vs. Blue/White in what is known as "Jeskai"); the Enemy Color is the primary base of the faction, but inspired/modified by & seeking the goals of Allied Color pair.

For starters, doing just one Color isn't too bad an idea, though.

 

[Spellbound]

Well, maybe 'too much information' isn't what I should have said. It's just the presentation makes it look like a lot. If I have to crane my neck to read the theme, it's not very well presented (not always, but it is in this situation). I think Ghost is on the right track here, so I'm curious to see what you can come up with Just, please, madre de dios, try to be concise.

Also now that I'm taking another look at the colour wheels, I think the first one has a lot of merit to it. I'm unsure about the pentagram - it could confuse a lot of people at first glance - and first impressions die hard

My own take on Ghost's descriptions (it's mostly just reading the wiki and throwing words together so some refinement is probably required):

White: exemplifies the ideals of order and consistency. White's ultimate goal is peace, ideally through structure and law.
Black: embodies the essences of selfishness, opportunism and ambition for power. Black is merciless and shameless.
Red: characterized by the chaotic & passionate nature of its creatures, magic & firebrands. Freedom is the greatest ideal of Red.
Blue: represents the pursuit of all knowledge. Blue is most often associated with magic, but is also the sphere of manipulation and invention.
Green: personifies growth, instinct and harmony with the universe. Green dislikes artificial change and prefers to remain humble and naturalistic.

 

[Retera]

So, if we got this idea, how long before we start making techtrees?

 

[Spellbound]

We need to agree on the colour theme first, then we can start voting on which theme to pick. After that we can start. Probably end of March?

Also if anyone has any other theme they want to request, please do.

 

[Astaroth Zion]

For the next text tree contest, I am still 100% eager to do MTG, though I am backtracking on the 10 guilds idea.

I believe the most sane thing would be to just have the basic 5 colors philosophies and the restriction that you can use up to 2 colors at once for your entry. (Solo 1 color entry or max 2 colors entry)

Magic the Gathering inspired techtree contest: choose up to 2 colors from MTG TCG and create an entry around the chosen color(s) core philosophy.

 

[Kyrbi0]

ALRIGHT so here's my go at it:

COLOR	WHITE	BLUE	BLACK	RED	GREEN
CREED	Peace through Order	Perfection through Knowledge	Power through Opportunism	Freedom through Action	Harmony through Acceptance
CREATURES	- Humans - Angels Soldiers Griffins Small Land Creatures Plains-Dwellers City-Dwellers Elementals	- Merfolk - Sphinxes Leviathans Sea Creatures Drakes Sirens Island-Dwellers Ocean-Dwellers Humans Elementals	- Zombies - Vampires - Demons Undead Horror Swamp-Dwellers Humans Elementals	- Goblins - Dragons Hellkites Devils Phoenixes Minotaur Mountain-Dwellers Humans Elementals	- Elves - Hydras Plant Creatures Dryads Big Land Creatures Jungle-Dwellers Forest-Dwellers Humans Elementals
MOAR STUFF

lol I never finish posts now

 

[Yours Truly]

You make all of it sound like so much effort. I figure I can just Google a picture of some Guild character, and make some custom unit types. Isn't the point to have fun?

And to win at having fun, since it's a competition...

You can't really blame me for it. There's quite a lot to read to be as lore-accurate as possible, and that's really what I aim for,Lore. Making a unit based on what you see doesn't make it the same. You can't make something just by seeing the book's cover. You need to read what's inside it to make something similar.

Meh, let's just start making rainbows of races before I swim in the colorless river. Speaking of colorless, that black theme seems intriguing. I just want another bronze to add in my collection, lol.

 

[Retera]

Hey, colorless plays a pretty important role in MTG, thinking of that. Will colorless be allowed as a design option?

 

[Spellbound]

Don't think so. We need something that's easier to judge. Colourless just sounds like... nothing? Can anyone explain how colourless even works?

Also if we're done talking about MtG, should we move on to polling the different themes?
Also we need to decide on 2 more things: do we make mechanics themes a separate theme altogether, or do we make voting on mechanics themes separate from aesthetic themes? The second thing is team-based contest, solo contest, optional team contest?

 

[Yours Truly]

Where are you getting at, Retera? I just said colorless as a matter of speech. Colorless basically means white,black or gray. Black and White is part of the 5 colors of this MtG theme, so what makes them more important than the other 3 colors?

 

[Astaroth Zion]

Colorless are basically "Artifacts" in MTG. Automatons, robots, weapons, structures and artificial constructions of some sort. In most cases artifacts are created by and for an specific faction, and in essence they share the philosophy of their creators (Like the guild weapons in Ravnica or Mirrodin).


PS: Eldrazi "Primordial Void Creatures" are also colorless in MTG , but they are by far the minority of the colorless cards and IMO shouldn't be counted.

 

[Retera]

Yeah, for me adding Eldrazi to MTG is like adding space ships, space travel, and rainbow pink unicorn mounts into World of Warcraft. Yes, you can, and the developer probably had fun doing it. But at the end of the day, was it a good idea?

So, I guess I had artifacts in mind. But that's tangential to our main discussion. How will we decide on the issues @Spellbound has listed?

 

[Spellbound]

yeah, if we're done with the MtG theme, we need to talk team-based/solo/optional team. Then we can move on to polling.

 

[Spellbound]

Okay since no one seems to care about anything but MtG, how about mandatory teams? Techtrees are laborious endeavours and would be better served if multiple people work on one race and make it better. I know this contest is notorious for its niche audience but we may attract more participants if they knew the workload would be divided.

Thoughts?

 

[Wareditor]

So we aren't gonna vote on the theme?
I think teams should be optional.

 

[Gyrosphinx]

I agree on optional teams. I don't want my own busy life dragging on someone else.

 

[Astaroth Zion]

The theme poll is up. Follow the link and remember to vote at least on 1 theme and at least on 1 team composition (solo, or team based).
Techtree Contest #12 Theme Poll

 

[JokeMaster]

Oh boy, am i glad that i still visit the forums from time to time.