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Starcraft II Beta Key Spell Contest

Discussion in 'Triggers & Scripts' started by TriggerHappy, Apr 25, 2010.

  1. Berb

    Berb

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    The quickest method of associating data in JASS is arrays. What vJass does is utilizes this and the result is not only a more logical interpretation of what's happening (due to "emulated" OOP), but it also makes it easier to associate data without having to re-code scripts unnecessarily. If you know what you're doing vJass also improves execution by inlining specific types of functions/methods.

    Obviously since everything must be compiled as JASS, the actual execution time of each line of code is going to be exactly the same whether coding in GUI, JASS, or vJass; if you're comparing the entire process of map-making (which is why we write code) from using JASS and using vJass, vJass yields a faster result with as much optimization as a JASS script could potentially have.
     
  2. elfian

    elfian

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    That's what I was trying to say... sort of :)
     
  3. Herian

    Herian

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    Hivoyer, wtf? Double post, and then WHT?
     
  4. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    tl;dr Piranha is wrong according to anyone with the minutest amount of coding experience, and anyone who has actually properly implemented structs in JASS knows it's a pain in the ass.

    You're looking at it right now.

    Where would we be if every scientist reinvented the wheel rather than building off the work of their peers? We'd be in the stone age.
     
  5. Piranha89

    Piranha89

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    In contrary, it is not hard. Seems like I'm talking to severals that did not even practice in normal Jass like Cedi and me did. Those "vJass fans" are usually those that came to coding at the time vJass already existed. Some few, like Cedi, have chosen it to have some variety on start and simply stayed on it since they were kind of proud about the advanced syntax.
    I see no real benefit from vJass for myself and I also prefer using one and the same system 100 times instead of writing it for each struct again and again.
    I also claim that my coding efficiency is at least at the level vJass, if not even better optimized for it's specific usage.
    Since I generally do not want to create spells for everyone to copy there is no need for me to write things in vJass. Which is, by the way, not as complex as most arrogant users claim it to be. The only difference to me is the syntax, but I still prefer controlling what is running in the background instead of letting things being preprocessed to anything strange.

    I do not know what Deaod and Burbanog were writing since I put them on my ignorelist as they started trolling, so this post may repeat some things they said, though I guess they got no clue about the real differences between vJass and Jass and do not want to admit it, similar to a major part of the "vJass community".
    I really do not care, use what you need to use, but stop those kiddyflames about things you do not know much about, guys.

    @Purplepoot:
    It would be nice if there were kind of "standards" for Jass, too instead of having to do most things yourself.
    On the other hand I see the creation of systems as a nice training and a good way to optimize processes. In my opinion, you should not simply copy all the things you do not understand.

    Greetings
    Piranha89
     
  6. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    I've been coding since roughly when I signed up, december of 05. vJass came about in its crappiest form (structs with no methods and global declarations, which was also buggy as hell, no arrays in the structs, and so on) in early 2007. Deaod has been coding for quite a while as well.

    We are the type of people who developed the practices you take for granted (the main credit for JASS knowledge probably goes to PitzerMike, PipeDream, Vexorian, and a few others), and you go on to tell us that we are newbs because we can't code outside an environment that was developed by us due to problems perceived in the language by us? It has since got out of control, but that is a different issue entirely, mostly due to Vexorian just adding whatever he finds cool at the time (good for him, but it bloats the language). Did you ever have to use gamecaches in spells and have horrendously slow results? Did you ever have to find out why your map's stack was getting corrupted and IDs were being spewed everywhere? I doubt it.

    It is incredibly easy to implement structs in JASS. It is also incredibly tedious and is quite frankly an utter waste of my time.

    vJass makes it easier to do that.

    Syntax is worth more than you account for. What is useful about data structures in such a high-level language is precisely the abstraction they provide; code written using parallel arrays is messy, tedious, and unreadable.

    Define "standards". There are many libraries which are considered the correct ones to use to solve their respective functions.
     
  7. Berb

    Berb

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    I coded in GUI for a year, then started coding in JASS and stuck with that for at least a year and a half. Then I moved on to vJass with the same mentality as you, that there was no real need for vJass. Now I am an very fluent vJass user. Almost everybody here who you are talking to has more experience in the World Editor than you do.

    Says the guy who joined in 2008 to a bunch of members who joined in 2005/2006.

    Um. What?

    Um. What? You don't even know what you're talking about.

    This guy missed the entire JESP era, where there was an actual standard for how JASS code had to be written (I believe it was only on wc3c.net though). This has long been an irrelevant standard due to vJass.

    I could copy all of your shit regardless of what language you write it in. Also, spells require a limited amount of the functionality that is offered with vJass. Just check out my projectiles system, I'd like to see you do that in JASS.

    Again, how about you try coding something more complex than a fucking spell and then get back to us. Nobody cares how easily you make easy-to-make spells.

    He claims to have divine knowledge with JASS programming but he has no resources or anything to prove that what he is saying is true. Typical of a newbie.

    Nobody here started trolling. If anything you're the one trolling. It's getting to a point now where I think the site would be better off without you as a member. You constantly oppose people, and when they're right and you're wrong you ignore them and accuse them of trolling, while contributing absolutely nothing to the site but cheap claims that have no foundation.

    What do you mean, that we don't know much about? You haven't done anything that shows us you have any knowledge in JASS whatsoever. You don't know 3% of the shit I do when it comes to making maps in World Editor.

    What do you mean, "all the things you do not understand". There is nothing you can show me from WarCraft III that I do not understand, especially your pieces of shit scripts.

    Wow it took me too long this time.

    I finally figured out this idiot. He's going through that phase in his life where he's insecure about his intelligence and so he feels a need to objectively put himself behind everybody else so that he can act as if he has superior intellect simply because of the fact that he uses JASS instead of vJass, under his own false pretenses (that he is trying to defend for the sake of his insecurity) this makes him more intelligent (which is also bullshit because he's not very smart at all).
     
  8. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    Heh, I totally forgot about JESP... repressed memories I guess. Configuration functions were hilariously bad.
     
  9. darkrider

    darkrider

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    can somebody cut this stupid bullsh** off? this used to be an starcraft 2 beta key contest for Christ's sake
     
  10. Lambdadelta

    Lambdadelta

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    Amusing read but :)
     
  11. Deaod

    Deaod

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    Its not hard but it is mind-numbing. And frankly, i want to keep my sanity when coding.
    I for one started coding in vJass in early 2008 or so. And i started out very slowly with vJass. I did not use syntax features i did not understand. I didnt use structs until mid 2008 or even late 2008, for example. I did actually implement parallel arrays (not the way JassHelper implements them). And i remember it being tedious work.
    What in the world are you talking about?
    I doubt that. And this claim perfectly demonstrates why you have no fucking clue about vJass at all.
    Your "struct member" access is a function call which then goes through a few ifs-elseifs to find the correct array to acces, reads the arrays and stores the value inside a local, and at the end of the function returns the value of the local. Your function wouldnt even inline.
    IN vJass: ONE ARRAY ACCESS.
    Tell me how your implementation is supposed to be AS FAST AS vJass.

    Your implementation also has a multitude of other problems i wont explain here. PM me if youre interested.
    I assume you still want to maintain your code. vJass helps you in that regard, because it restricts you from using the whole API, reducing interdependence of code solving different problems thus making such code easier to replace and change.
    You can safely let code run in the background. Especially when youre talking about code JassHelper added. You wont even notice. And as i already pointed out, controlling the code seldomly leads to better performance.

    Thats comforting to know. Yes, i did troll with the post you ignored me for. Get over it. I couldve expressed the same with a multitude of lines describing in detail why your code fails so horribly. But i didnt.
    Are you fucking kidding? I'd never repeat the bullshit you wrote. Instead i spent a whole lot of time taking your every argument apart.
    How about you actually try to back your claims up with decent code (or anything that shows you know what youre talking about)?
    Get off your high horse. Youre currently the one acting like a child by ignoring and deriding your opponents.

    As Berbanog already mentionend, we had JESP. I say had because it was dropped, since every sane person coded in vJass anyway. Needless to say, vJass resources that were approved generally were in a better shape than JESP resources ever were.
    Copying doesnt require you to understand what the copied code does. But thats the point. You want a black box that does exactly what you want it to do. To use such black boxes, you dont have to understand how the black box works. You only need to know how to interface with the black box.

    Also, i can claim that i never used a library i did not understand how it worked. I never used a library i didnt understand how it worked in principle. I didnt care for the implementation details. Those are irrelevant anyway.


    -------

    If someone wants to do me a favour, quote this post. That should circumvent his stupid ignorance. Please try to leave everything intact.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2010
  12. Berb

    Berb

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    The only real methods of evaluating a library would be:
    • Efficiency
    • User Interface
    • Modularity
    • Function

    The actual idea underlying a library is not very hard to translate, typically it just results in a lot of unnecessary work. If you're building a map, there is no reason to re-write unit indexing (in certain circumstances) when one has AutoIndex, since the implementation of AutoIndex is so easy to use there is no reason why you would re-code it; other than having something to prove to yourself.

    Though (in attempt to re-route this back to the thread topic) there really should not be any restrictions on the libraries that are allowed for these contest entries. It really doesn't matter what library you are using, it is going to be doing a lot of work for you. The fact that knock-back libraries and projectile libraries were disallowed doesn't make much sense considering the amount of work that is put into a system like AutoIndex (which was allowed) is no where compared to the amount of work required to make a Knock Back engine. There is no reasonable explanation as to why systems such as AutoIndex would be allowed and Knock Back (or any library) not allowed, it's really just a psychological idealization that certain libraries do "more" than others. All libraries do exactly what they are meant to do, and just because the task directly affects units doesn't mean that a lot has been accomplished.
     
  13. Fate

    Fate

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    Omg guys your discussion is annoying. Just open a new topic and continue discussing there.
     
  14. Berb

    Berb

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    Last few posts have had nothing to do with the argument.
     
  15. bowser499

    bowser499

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    So, where are the results? May, 3...
     
  16. Piranha89

    Piranha89

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    Let's keep it on that point, I wish to read about the fucking contest, not do a discussion with guys that are not able to get some neutral view about the things we are discussing.
    I've had similar discussions with Cedi already and I'm fed up with that, since all that stayed in the end was "I prefer vjass syntax".
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2010
  17. elfian

    elfian

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    Damn. Three days since the contest ended and still no word from TriggerHappy. According to his last post, he hasn't even started viewing the spells.. :S
     
  18. D4RK_G4ND4LF

    D4RK_G4ND4LF

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  19. Lambdadelta

    Lambdadelta

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    Omg! Really! I don't care. My computer can't play so I am upset :( Hehe. But I am still playing Starcraft 1. Meaning to finish Terran on the original game. Where you have to defend from both Zerg and Protoss. WTF is that.

    --

    Hopefully this contest doesn't take forever to get graded. *Cough, Water Spell Contest BlizzVault*
     
  20. Deaod

    Deaod

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    You cant write a final post, if you ignore the whole other side.
    First, your system fails. Horribly. Secondly, i dont spend TIME writing that shit, I reuse the things already integrated into vJass.

    That "freak's hype" brought to you many of the most advanced libraries in existence. You can do a crazy amount of things nowadays that would not have been possible in pure JASS. You can also organize your code better than ever before.

    Noones trying to do that [ie. Assembly-Java]. You dont compare 2nd level languages to 3rd level languages.

    As a matter of fact, i did it write parallel arrays before i learned how to use structs. Sadly, it was then that i learned that you cant declare globals in pure JASS. I realized i had been working with vJass all along.

    Arrogance speaking. Your view isnt neutral either. Noones view is neutral.
    There are hards facts that JASS is inferior to vJass. Berbanog, PurplePoot and me already outlined most (if not all) of them. If you dont acknowledge these, youre a.) ignorant and b.) a moron.
    I dont care what you use to write your scripts. You can use JASS all you want. But dont come along telling me that JASS is just soooo much more "pro" than vJass because "you can do every you can do with vJass in JASS" (which is just wrong, see above) and "JASS is faster than vJass" (which is rarely ever true, and when it is, its in trivial cases).