Snowdale Springs v0.7.0

[WolfFarkas]

nice map. I like it

if you are interested in some balance feedback:

review

1) the orange green creep looting permanent L4 , murlocks and trolls are to near each, I mean 2 permanents L4 for one player if it goes to the center and the other not. IMO for tavern balance, if a Player goes for a first tavern
those camps should be green for a creeping route for a first tavern hero.
2) the rock chunks and merc camps, it may be a problem, you can spawn an elemental from the other side maybe, you should read WTii review of my map Frostfloe deep and there you can read his opinion about rock chuncks and blocking doodads in general.
you cant farm scout the merc camps or AOW. merc camp creeps should be in camp mode
3) I feel there is a 35% chance of agro, I mean the chance is higher if the army is more large, maybe yes maybe not, I would try to pull those mines more far to be more safe, since is a L19 it may happen in midle time game.

I feel thise has a bit more chance of agro, like 60%

4) I feel the first green creep is to near the base

5) IMO I feel that path, mark with stars something is missing, it would be nice to have some point of interest to visit,
a red creep would be ideal in the very corner

6) I like starcraft cliff, but not in wc3, I mean NE can make hits more safe than the other races IMO. I mean is not orthodox to hit the creeps from above, you can hit the trolls from above while the orge walks all the way around.

hope to help

 

[Nudl9]

1) Not really sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about an outdated version? There are no perma4 items that are close to each other.

2) Couldnt find anything on the issue, would be better if you just linked me the thingy. Wtii's opinion was basicly just that it didn't contribute anything to your map. For example the expansions could have been open without really changing the game. In this map i use it to avoid aggro issues when you send units across the map. Also allowing a separate path mid-endgame for the opponent if one side has too much defense.
Changed aggro to camp.

3) Fixed aggro.

4) Level 4 camps are hardly relevant when it comes to base proximity. They won't attack base unless you make them ranged. Nearby level 4 creeps are pretty normal on most maps.

6) Starcraft cliffs? there are none near expansion. The creeps themselves nearby can be changed - i've made them flying.

 

[WolfFarkas]

1) Not really sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about an outdated version? There are no perma4 items that are close to each other.

2) Couldnt find anything on the issue, would be better if you just linked me the thingy. Wtii's opinion was basicly just that it didn't contribute anything to your map. For example the expansions could have been open without really changing the game. In this map i use it to avoid aggro issues when you send units across the map. Also allowing a separate path mid-endgame for the opponent if one side has too much defense.
Changed aggro to camp.

3) Fixed aggro.

4) Level 4 camps are hardly relevant when it comes to base proximity. They won't attack base unless you make them ranged. Nearby level 4 creeps are pretty normal on most maps.

6) Starcraft cliffs? there are none near expansion. The creeps themselves nearby can be changed - i've made them flying.

1) ah I download it yesterday, the 0.01, and made the mistake of reviewing your map in cigaro map

2) I used rock chunks to also avoid agro in dual paths mines and lateral paths with a creep , I mean rock chunks limits paths but not the scout,
so in terms of ladder maybe some users wont like it. I would use trees so to limit both walking and scouting. Also I dont feel is ideal to hit the camp from behind.

4) is not going to attack, never stated that, but I saw @Cigaro reviews, and he spoted many creeps near base that could be towered, or IMO orc burrow creep it. I am taggin him so maybe he will state his opinion. Maybe I am mistake or falling in a IMO thats is more of taste.

6) I was just pointing that is not ideal for ladder and blizzard to hit creeps from above, while I really like cliff, they could be also a problem sometimes. I always joke with starcraft cliff because is the soul of that game to exploit the cliff , but thats the idea and there are units to counter the cliff like colossi,


If I hard reviewed, I did it so your map may fit ladder.
by only looking the minimap, is very atractive to be played.

 

[Cigaro]

Hellou!

Since it's only a small creep camp I guess the proximity to the base is less of much of an issue. However, the enemy can hardly disturb your creeping there. Have a pro player give an input on that.

===

LAYOUT

The distance between base 1 and 2 is much bigger than it is on all 1v1 maps of the current map pool. That makes harassing harder, and you'll also have an easier time defending the expo.

I would generally stay away from those destructible pathing blockers (behind the merc camps).

I'm not sure what to think of this base entry. It requires a different building arrangement to seal off your base, and probably more buildings in total.

===

CREEPS

The lvl 19 camp at the gold mine should only drop a lvl 4.

NE has a hard time finding creep camps to farm with AoW.

===

Nice job on the design, it looks very unique. I'm a fan of these spots in particular:



Generally a good mix of tilesets, interesting water coloration.

I only dislike the edges of the snow tileset here:

 

[Nudl9]

I've already fixed a lot of the things you've mentioned in v0.04, what you have is v0.03.
Things like AOW spots, drops, etc.

I'm not sure what to think of this base entry. It requires a different building arrangement to seal off your base, and probably more buildings in total.

Thats kind of the point here.
Access to the base is rather exposed since you can't afford to 100% wall off both sides.
On the other hand goldmine has better protection with the trees, but if you decide to chop the most close trees your defense gradually grows thinner.
Your goldmine is also more exposed to cheese strategies like Flamestrike, AOW harass, hidden towers.
If an opponent wants to attack or harass your base then they kind of have to commit to either side path to push base, since otherwise they have to deal with the mercenary camp.
Should the mercenary camp be cleared though then they have a lot of dispensible resources to push with.

Since it's only a small creep camp I guess the proximity to the base is less of much of an issue. However, the enemy can hardly disturb your creeping there. Have a pro player give an input on that.

It's pretty neglible, since it's only a level 5 camp with tome, so it's generally not worth doing it.
The camp is sorta just there to give players something to do during downtime.
You always want to start off with 7's,12's or 16's if you can.
The only race that would creep it early is UD because they have slower start until fiends come online.
It's something i've talked with Gusch about when i made Terrace Fields.
Level 3-4 camps are sort of pointless, but can be nice to have during downtime.

 

[Cigaro]

Ah, yer right. I had saved it earlier and only found time to review it now.

I guess I'm just too conservative for such double-access base ideas. I'd rather see the standard thing.

Anyway, my main concern remains the long distance between the two base's. I would turn the base by 180 degrees like so:



But it's only a suggestion anyway

 

[Nudl9]

The map was built up with the two-way-access concept from the start so i'm not going to change it.

Wether you rotate it or not, it doesn't really change the overall walk distance.
What makes the distance longer is the oval shaped center.
The map is about as long as Terenas Stand.
Both maps focus a lot on expansions.

 

[deepstrasz]

1. Creep mana (kobold geomancers at expansions; big murloc at the shop and so on) should be full from the start as heroes and player units are trained so.
2. Not sure why you people want the night elves to have an advantage when it comes to the Tavern. Other races have to use 1 food for a unit that just stand or builds something (more cost and risk). Elves, can not only use the wisp for scouting, fast reviving a hero but also harvesting at the same time.
3. Maybe you could push the merc camp a bit closer to the middle so that if you break the rocks you could access/circle around the base. Right now, in the early game, moving near player bases is restricted to the middle and sides.

You on a melee frenzy or something?

Approved.

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[Nudl9]

Not sure why you people want the night elves to have an advantage when it comes to the Tavern. Other races have to use 1 food for a unit that just stand or builds something (more cost and risk). Elves, can not only use the wisp for scouting, fast reviving a hero but also harvesting at the same time.

It's not an advantage. You always attach the tavern wisp to a tree anyway, it just reduces the workload of moving the wisp from nearby tree to tavern. The lumber net loss is completely negligible anyway. Anything that reduce workload is inherently good. Humans can do the same too by building a farm. It should pretty much be a standard on all maps that make it possible visually or thematically. You'll see it on Amazonia, Terenas Stand and i think Echo Isles.

Maybe you could push the merc camp a bit closer to the middle so that if you break the rocks you could access/circle around the base. Right now, in the early game, moving near player bases is restricted to the middle and sides.

It's more of a balance concept to make the reverse position goldmine work.

The defending player has to commit to either:
-Wall off one side, leaving goldmine exposed
-Wall off goldmine, leaving buildings exposed

The attacking player then has to commit to either side too:
-If one side is walled off, then its hard to penetrate, but this also means the distance to the other side large too.

The mercenary camp then presents an obstruction for the attacking player to delay them if they chose to attack the wrong side.

So you have a 50/50 scenario where the player can wall off either side and the attacking player also have to do a 50/50.
Essentially you have to read your opponent, based on player and race to know if they will or won't wall off a side.

edit:

You on a melee frenzy or something?

Just learning a bit of melee through playing it and making melee maps. Im using it as a break from working on Warcraft Royale, as it can get tedious over time.

 

[deepstrasz]

Humans can do the same too by building a farm.

Again. Humans need to waste time moving a Peasant, then building which costs and then there's the risk of losing the building along with 6 food. A wisp takes 1 food, costs so little and can harvest near the tavern.
Undead, need a Sacrificial Skull (thus a hero moved to the Tavern) and a patch of land big enough for a Ziggurat to fit in. Undead don't do it but just saying that Night Elves have an advantage. You could say that the orcs are more close since they could leave a Peon inside the Burrow and turn it into a weak tower.

Im using it as a break from working on Warcraft Royale, as it can get tedious over time.

I know the feeling. But, you really love that map that you don't declare it finished.

 

[Nudl9]

Look it really doesn't matter.
Like whats the difference here?
You don't lose any lumber because harvest takes 5 seconds to generate a small chunk of lumber.
It's just less work since you dont need to move the wisp.
I hope this clears up the confusion.

As for warcraft royale, its sort of an infinity project. It's never really done and it's always changing.

 

[deepstrasz]

I hope this clears up the confusion.

Nope. In the long run, elves still have something to gain. But, it's OK if you don't agree. Same for me.

 

[Nudl9]

Mate there is nothing to disagree on, like you're a map reviewer you're supposed to know these things and you make judgements based on it. So you can't just argue about "i disagree therefore this is the way it is". Every single map has trees near tavern and you always send your wisp on a tree. Again just less effort required if you have tree near tavern. Theres nothing imbalanced about it and you don't gain more or less lumber from it. Like this is basic stuff if you play melee.