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Defining and Placement of Melee Maps with Meagre Changes

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by deepstrasz, Jan 7, 2018.

?

Where do you think a melee map with few changes should belong?

  1. Melee

    4.2%
  2. Altered Melee

    20.8%
  3. Tweaked Melee

    64.6%
  4. Substandard

    10.4%
  1. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    There are some melee maps with scant changes for the better of gameplay or as a result of a different view on the melee experience.

    Examples: a map (not a blizz or edit of somebody else's but an original one) with a Dragon Roost from which the tenth level dragon is removed; a map where the shipyard also contains the campaign battleships etc.

    What do you think? To which category should such a map belong to? Please vote using the poll.

    This is kind of what altered melee means now:
    Deforestation of Felwood v2.1.1
    Nightborne v1.04
    Planetary Domination v2.04
    Sands of Time [v1.9]
    The Grand Citadel (Racial Issue 1.6)

    (thanks to IcemanBo and twojstaryjakcie for the idea)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  2. Maxwell

    Maxwell

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    It's definitely not a Altered Melee in a full meaning.
    Also we can't call it just "Melee", becouse it can lead to missunderstanding, cause somebody can miss the information, that this map have changes.
    And what's more - man, is it not to much effort in removing of one dragon. So - substandart is my vote.
     
  3. TheEarthquake

    TheEarthquake

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    I think altered melee describes it best. Tweaked means more or less the same, right? I think it depends on the change: If it is a change for the worse (imbalanced), it is in fact substandard since the tweak made the map worse for competitive playing. Substandard implies the map is of less value. If there is a useful tweak or alteration made it might improve the map. Since "altered" and "tweaked" is not a value judgment (but "substandard" is) and if it is not easily seen that a change makes the map worse, I think altered is better than substandard. It doesn't judge the tweak
     
  4. Imperator

    Imperator

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    There's a specific way melee maps function. If you stray from the "dogma" in any way the map should be labeled altered melee. Altered melee doesn't just mean custom races, it implies changes to the core game which should be disclosed.

    EDIT: Also, tweaked and altered are the same thing, right?
     
  5. Knecht

    Knecht

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    The dragon might have been a bad example, but altering merc camps or shipyards for the sake of game balance or fun doesn't make the map substandard imo. Sometimes the littlest changes can create huge differences.
     
  6. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Well, judging by word synonyms, kind of yes but here it's supposed to define melee maps with small changes like what @Knecht and I previously mentioned. Altered melee here defines medium to heavy changes to the original gameplay, like creating new races (as you've written), using triggers along with custom content to set a fixed objective which wasn't present in the original melee and so on.
    Edited the main post adding links with Altered Melee.
     
  7. twojstaryjakcie

    twojstaryjakcie

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    The name doesn't have to be "Tweaked". If somebody comes up with a better word for it, that's great. The point is, there should be a special category for such maps in order to avoid general confusion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  8. mafe

    mafe

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    I would be good have some clarity here indeed.
    In general, I recommend not changing any gameplay relevant data, but I think it is acceptable within certain limits. Iirc one of the maps that even got picked by b2w as one of their contest maps had a minor change in gold cost for an item (at least it had in a preliminary version), and it was seen fit for competitive play; though this might also be because they didnt realize it ;) Then there is also some popular server (it might even be w3arena, which is where virtually all western wc3 pros are training) that removed the possibility of close spawns on Turtle Rock via triggers, which makes TR also an altered melee then. I take this as a hint not to be too strict.

    Nevertheless I think that any change for gameplay relevant data should automatically make the map classified altered melee. However, if the changes are small, is there anything that prevents mapmakers from uploading two files in one resources, one altered, one unaltered? So that the map resource could be classified as both "melee" and "altered melee" at the same time (For example, I use the filters for finding melee maps only, but would still be interested in altered melees that are basically still normal melees).

    In any case, the author should specifically state what was changed.
     
  9. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Very smart!
    However, hopefully every creator would comply.
    Still, that may be a bit of a haze for those who search altered melee.
     
  10. The Panda

    The Panda

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    i kinda like tweaked because your not changing alot from the melee map, just editing one unit from a neutral building or editing one units damage.. So i guess ill go with tweaked.
     
  11. apcrabnightlive

    apcrabnightlive

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    Both words might be the same meaning but at some point, it defines some difference between heavily changed melee maps to those slightly changed melee maps. Most altered melee maps got something that distinguishes them from standard melee maps. Meanwhile, those 'tweaked' maps might only have small changes just for some improvements which in general isn't really that different from standard melee maps.
     
  12. Remixer

    Remixer

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    I brought up this issue years ago and no one paid attention. My opinion back then was to create small labels for all Melee maps. So we'd have melee maps just like now, on top of that users could search the Melee Maps that have the specific label: Competitive Melee, Altered Melee and for example Tweaked Melee.

    Competitive Melee = A kind of melee map that includes nothing custom made - no units or objects have been modified. Competitive Melee maps could just well be one of Blizzards' map pool.

    Altered melee = A kind of map that follows the gameplay of ordinary Melee maps with heavily altered mechanics and modified features such as custom races or additional races or brand new game mechanics. An example here could be Blizzards' Monolith map.

    Tweaked Melee = A kind of melee map that does not fulfil the requirements to be a Competitive Melee map: some objects could have been tweaked or the balance is not meant to fit the Competitive scheme. For example some custom made units or items can be present or the map lay out could support 1v10 players.


    Edit:
    In my opinion there should be labels instead of different categories as the fundamentals are still the same: each label specifies just modifications of a map type that uses same idea (building base, fighting enemies that also have base...) Also this would help people to realise there are different types of Melee Maps.
     
  13. Anomines

    Anomines

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    Pretty difficult.

    But I think there is no necessity nowadays to go strictly after blizzards rules. None of the major platforms (other than bnet) cares about them so it is not really relevant how blizz defines the melee maps. So in my opinion a "non close spawn" Turtle Rock still defines as "melee" even though there are triggers involved.

    On the other side the the meleelabel by blizzard ensures some kind of qualitycontrol which ensures standardized gameplay and visual appearance.
    In my opinion mapreviewers would have to go case by case.

    If player controlled units and stats are changed ->altered melee
    Creation of new neutral passive or neutral enemy units could be imo ok if it stays within some boundaries. Existing creeps should not be changed in stats since players kind of know the power levels of common creeps
    Merc camp unit changes would be totally fine imho (like removing or adding an existing unit) (adding a non existing unit would be very tricky, but in some scenarios I could even imagine having a new unit added to the creep camps - but with a lot of care obviously)

    Existing items should not be tweaked, new items only if necessary. For instance in my map Swamped Temple I wanted to create a new item which is a (lesser) rune of a watcher ward just without invinciblity. In my opinion this should be completely fine, since it is really only a minor change and does not alter gameplay

    Maybe this should be always the main point: Does it alter existing gameplay?

    The line is thin but for instance a map with goblin shipyards would be still kinda ok for me but when the shooting ships are sold it is altered melee


    So when it comes to categories I would probably still place maps with minor changes in the category "melee". Maybe a disclaimer in the map description "this map does not strictly define as a melee map by blizzard standards in the world editor" with a description like:
    Added Item "Lesser Rune of the Watcher Ward" (gameplay)
    Changed Doodad X/Y/Z (decorative)
    Changed Unit X/Y/Z data (flying crow) (decorative)

    Probably that could be enough.


    But if there really is a need for a separate category I would suggest "Melee+"

    "Altered Melee" does not fit since it would be on the same level with maps that change whole races and stuff. "Substandard" has a clearly negative connotation which degrades the maps.
    "Tweaked Melee" is kind of ok but I would still go with "Melee" and a ineditor and mapdescription disclaimer
     
  14. Knecht

    Knecht

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    I agree with both @Remixer and @Anomines (and i really like the Melee+ name :cgrin:)

    My biggest fear is just that by creating a whole new category, there wouldn't be many people looking these maps up as people would still click on melee.
    I'd suggest putting in subcategories to Melee - the map browser would show both Melee and Melee+ maps and those who'd wish to look up just melee would further click on Melee (or Competitive or whatever name it would have). Altered would be left in its own category though since the maps sometimes alter way too much from the base game.
     
  15. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Or maybe what @mafe wrote, leave it melee but when uploading such a map, you upload it with the (hard/core) melee version too.
     
  16. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    voted tweaked melee

    normal melee means extrict using the wc3 preset even if the thing is bad balanced, you don´t touch nothing you just use what wc3 offers with no changes (for good or bad)

    altered melee: is a very wide concept and , here in the Hive altered melee means for example melee play with new designed races, such naga, tauren, pandaren, high elves, ..... but the form of play is as melee, peons, gold and wood, units, hero, explore, camp, attack the enemy....

    so I think tweaked melee is good new category, normal melee with some minor changes like the dragon thing, changes in the markets and the items that are sell, same 4 races but custom creeps, that means minor changes (for balance or enviroment) in the units but that have the 4 original races of the play as a normal melee
     
  17. RFWH

    RFWH

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    So you are proposing a category that is "less altered than Altered Melee".
    However I feel Melee is a standard that must be kept, and besides already has a great deal of flexibility in the way of custom doodads, etc. while still respecting certain rules.
    I'm not exactly sure what absurdities people get up to in the Altered Melee category, if it is really bad, maybe there is reason to make a Tweaked Melee. But I am mostly experienced in Melee maps itself.

    ~~~~
     
  18. Imperator

    Imperator

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    Another way would be to rename the current "Altered Melee" tag to something like custom melee or custom races melee, since that is what most of them are and this way authors won't need to change labels. Reserve the new altered melee for maps with minor gameplay changes.
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    While I'd dig, it'd confuse those searching for what Altered Melee means now.
     
  20. Imperator

    Imperator

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    People who are part of the community would be aware of the changes and to those who visit just to download maps they would be even more helpful. I suggested this with those people in mind. I think that separating these two types of maps would create less confusion for outsiders, not more.