Defining and Placement of Melee Maps with Meagre Changes

Where do you think a melee map with few changes should belong?


  • Total voters
    48

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
There are some melee maps with scant changes for the better of gameplay or as a result of a different view on the melee experience.

Examples: a map (not a blizz or edit of somebody else's but an original one) with a Dragon Roost from which the tenth level dragon is removed; a map where the shipyard also contains the campaign battleships etc.

What do you think? To which category should such a map belong to? Please vote using the poll.

This is kind of what altered melee means now:
Deforestation of Felwood v2.1.1
Nightborne v1.04
Planetary Domination v2.04
Sands of Time [v1.9]
The Grand Citadel (Racial Issue 1.6)

(thanks to IcemanBo and twojstaryjakcie for the idea)
 
Last edited:

Maxwell

Multimedia Team
Level 20
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
863
It's definitely not a Altered Melee in a full meaning.
Also we can't call it just "Melee", becouse it can lead to missunderstanding, cause somebody can miss the information, that this map have changes.
And what's more - man, is it not to much effort in removing of one dragon. So - substandart is my vote.
 
Level 4
Joined
Oct 21, 2017
Messages
16
I think altered melee describes it best. Tweaked means more or less the same, right? I think it depends on the change: If it is a change for the worse (imbalanced), it is in fact substandard since the tweak made the map worse for competitive playing. Substandard implies the map is of less value. If there is a useful tweak or alteration made it might improve the map. Since "altered" and "tweaked" is not a value judgment (but "substandard" is) and if it is not easily seen that a change makes the map worse, I think altered is better than substandard. It doesn't judge the tweak
 

Deleted member 238589

D

Deleted member 238589

There's a specific way melee maps function. If you stray from the "dogma" in any way the map should be labeled altered melee. Altered melee doesn't just mean custom races, it implies changes to the core game which should be disclosed.

EDIT: Also, tweaked and altered are the same thing, right?
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
EDIT: Also, tweaked and altered are the same thing, right?
Well, judging by word synonyms, kind of yes but here it's supposed to define melee maps with small changes like what @Knecht and I previously mentioned. Altered melee here defines medium to heavy changes to the original gameplay, like creating new races (as you've written), using triggers along with custom content to set a fixed objective which wasn't present in the original melee and so on.
Edited the main post adding links with Altered Melee.
 

mafe

Map Reviewer
Level 20
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
734
I would be good have some clarity here indeed.
In general, I recommend not changing any gameplay relevant data, but I think it is acceptable within certain limits. Iirc one of the maps that even got picked by b2w as one of their contest maps had a minor change in gold cost for an item (at least it had in a preliminary version), and it was seen fit for competitive play; though this might also be because they didnt realize it ;) Then there is also some popular server (it might even be w3arena, which is where virtually all western wc3 pros are training) that removed the possibility of close spawns on Turtle Rock via triggers, which makes TR also an altered melee then. I take this as a hint not to be too strict.

Nevertheless I think that any change for gameplay relevant data should automatically make the map classified altered melee. However, if the changes are small, is there anything that prevents mapmakers from uploading two files in one resources, one altered, one unaltered? So that the map resource could be classified as both "melee" and "altered melee" at the same time (For example, I use the filters for finding melee maps only, but would still be interested in altered melees that are basically still normal melees).

In any case, the author should specifically state what was changed.
 
Level 18
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
2,210
Both words might be the same meaning but at some point, it defines some difference between heavily changed melee maps to those slightly changed melee maps. Most altered melee maps got something that distinguishes them from standard melee maps. Meanwhile, those 'tweaked' maps might only have small changes just for some improvements which in general isn't really that different from standard melee maps.
 
I brought up this issue years ago and no one paid attention. My opinion back then was to create small labels for all Melee maps. So we'd have melee maps just like now, on top of that users could search the Melee Maps that have the specific label: Competitive Melee, Altered Melee and for example Tweaked Melee.

Competitive Melee = A kind of melee map that includes nothing custom made - no units or objects have been modified. Competitive Melee maps could just well be one of Blizzards' map pool.

Altered melee = A kind of map that follows the gameplay of ordinary Melee maps with heavily altered mechanics and modified features such as custom races or additional races or brand new game mechanics. An example here could be Blizzards' Monolith map.

Tweaked Melee = A kind of melee map that does not fulfil the requirements to be a Competitive Melee map: some objects could have been tweaked or the balance is not meant to fit the Competitive scheme. For example some custom made units or items can be present or the map lay out could support 1v10 players.


Edit:
In my opinion there should be labels instead of different categories as the fundamentals are still the same: each label specifies just modifications of a map type that uses same idea (building base, fighting enemies that also have base...) Also this would help people to realise there are different types of Melee Maps.
 
Level 9
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
82
Pretty difficult.

But I think there is no necessity nowadays to go strictly after blizzards rules. None of the major platforms (other than bnet) cares about them so it is not really relevant how blizz defines the melee maps. So in my opinion a "non close spawn" Turtle Rock still defines as "melee" even though there are triggers involved.

On the other side the the meleelabel by blizzard ensures some kind of qualitycontrol which ensures standardized gameplay and visual appearance.
In my opinion mapreviewers would have to go case by case.

If player controlled units and stats are changed ->altered melee
Creation of new neutral passive or neutral enemy units could be imo ok if it stays within some boundaries. Existing creeps should not be changed in stats since players kind of know the power levels of common creeps
Merc camp unit changes would be totally fine imho (like removing or adding an existing unit) (adding a non existing unit would be very tricky, but in some scenarios I could even imagine having a new unit added to the creep camps - but with a lot of care obviously)

Existing items should not be tweaked, new items only if necessary. For instance in my map Swamped Temple I wanted to create a new item which is a (lesser) rune of a watcher ward just without invinciblity. In my opinion this should be completely fine, since it is really only a minor change and does not alter gameplay

Maybe this should be always the main point: Does it alter existing gameplay?

The line is thin but for instance a map with goblin shipyards would be still kinda ok for me but when the shooting ships are sold it is altered melee


So when it comes to categories I would probably still place maps with minor changes in the category "melee". Maybe a disclaimer in the map description "this map does not strictly define as a melee map by blizzard standards in the world editor" with a description like:
Added Item "Lesser Rune of the Watcher Ward" (gameplay)
Changed Doodad X/Y/Z (decorative)
Changed Unit X/Y/Z data (flying crow) (decorative)

Probably that could be enough.


But if there really is a need for a separate category I would suggest "Melee+"

"Altered Melee" does not fit since it would be on the same level with maps that change whole races and stuff. "Substandard" has a clearly negative connotation which degrades the maps.
"Tweaked Melee" is kind of ok but I would still go with "Melee" and a ineditor and mapdescription disclaimer
 
Level 21
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
139
I agree with both @Remixer and @Anomines (and i really like the Melee+ name :cgrin:)

My biggest fear is just that by creating a whole new category, there wouldn't be many people looking these maps up as people would still click on melee.
I'd suggest putting in subcategories to Melee - the map browser would show both Melee and Melee+ maps and those who'd wish to look up just melee would further click on Melee (or Competitive or whatever name it would have). Altered would be left in its own category though since the maps sometimes alter way too much from the base game.
 
Level 26
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,556
voted tweaked melee

normal melee means extrict using the wc3 preset even if the thing is bad balanced, you don´t touch nothing you just use what wc3 offers with no changes (for good or bad)

altered melee: is a very wide concept and , here in the Hive altered melee means for example melee play with new designed races, such naga, tauren, pandaren, high elves, ..... but the form of play is as melee, peons, gold and wood, units, hero, explore, camp, attack the enemy....

so I think tweaked melee is good new category, normal melee with some minor changes like the dragon thing, changes in the markets and the items that are sell, same 4 races but custom creeps, that means minor changes (for balance or enviroment) in the units but that have the 4 original races of the play as a normal melee
 
Level 6
Joined
Sep 30, 2017
Messages
75
So you are proposing a category that is "less altered than Altered Melee".
However I feel Melee is a standard that must be kept, and besides already has a great deal of flexibility in the way of custom doodads, etc. while still respecting certain rules.
I'm not exactly sure what absurdities people get up to in the Altered Melee category, if it is really bad, maybe there is reason to make a Tweaked Melee. But I am mostly experienced in Melee maps itself.

~~~~
 

Deleted member 238589

D

Deleted member 238589

Another way would be to rename the current "Altered Melee" tag to something like custom melee or custom races melee, since that is what most of them are and this way authors won't need to change labels. Reserve the new altered melee for maps with minor gameplay changes.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
Another way would be to rename the current "Altered Melee" tag to something like custom melee or custom races melee, since that is what most of them are and this way authors won't need to change labels. Reserve the new altered melee for maps with minor gameplay changes.
While I'd dig, it'd confuse those searching for what Altered Melee means now.
 

Deleted member 238589

D

Deleted member 238589

People who are part of the community would be aware of the changes and to those who visit just to download maps they would be even more helpful. I suggested this with those people in mind. I think that separating these two types of maps would create less confusion for outsiders, not more.
 

mafe

Map Reviewer
Level 20
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
734
I don't understand why people want to keep the "Melee" tag only for maps that are equivalent to the Blizzards' map pool, while a lot of people search more open and free-minded melee maps with neat features.
Because there is still a maybe small, but higly active and competitive scene of melee map players. At any time there are thousands of people playing unaltered melee games in battle net (probably tens of thousands if you include custom servers, in particular those from china).
 
Level 26
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,556
I don't understand why people want to keep the "Melee" tag only for maps that are equivalent to the Blizzards' map pool, while a lot of people search more open and free-minded melee maps with neat features.

because of the competitive melee play , competitive melee comunities and competitive melee contest
those are more important than some melee maps with minor changes such as mentioned (items, creeps), so the users may access to only competitive melee maps and the users may do no-competitive melee maps still with not being forced to go on competitive

actually right now when a melee tag is used, the map is judged for competitive play in a very strict way, so other category that may allow you for example to design a melee map where you have agro and you have to kill creeps to reach the enemy

it will mean more freedom to the mappers if they want to go competitive or experimental too
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Admittedly competitive melee is the most important of them, but the "Melee" includes all kinds of melee. I would rather like to see Competitive Melee category or whatever check mark would fit best. I don't understand the reason why "Altered Melee" is separated from "Melee" when it is in fact just melee. In the exact similar way than Competitive Melee is another type of melee.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
I think I can actually parse the map info and detect whether the World Editor decided that X map was no longer melee. You could then have a single tag "Melee" and just filter by "Custom modications" or not.
Yeah, but with the 1v1 melee mapping contest we just had, we basically defined melee as even altering the terrain and doodad aspect.
 
I think I can actually parse the map info and detect whether the World Editor decided that X map was no longer melee. You could then have a single tag "Melee" and just filter by "Custom modications" or not.
The problem is that even changing a doodad maximum/minimum size would make the map no longer melee. Most of my melee maps only have some changes in the environmental doodads for better visual look. I think it would really do bad for melee maps that just have those slight tweaks and people who look for competitive melee maps would not find those maps.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
I think someone here mentioned something like this: we could make a compromise by having both tags on meagerly edited melee maps so when you search for melee maps with only the "Melee" and "Results must include all selected tags" (in the search engine), you only get melee without anything altered melee (or other genres/tags) but sadly as you can see:
Maps | HIVE
this is not the case now as choosing only those two tags I mentioned does not exclude other maps with the Melee tag on.
 

Ralle

Owner
Level 68
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
9,499
Yeah, but with the 1v1 melee mapping contest we just had, we basically defined melee as even altering the terrain and doodad aspect.
The problem is that even changing a doodad maximum/minimum size would make the map no longer melee. Most of my melee maps only have some changes in the environmental doodads for better visual look. I think it would really do bad for melee maps that just have those slight tweaks and people who look for competitive melee maps would not find those maps.
I see. I could then check if the war3map.w3u existed in the map. It only exists if units are edited. And could also check for custom JASS code too.
 
I see. I could then check if the war3map.w3u existed in the map. It only exists if units are edited. And could also check for custom JASS code too.
I guess that would work quite well. Apart from some cases, perhaps you can make this automatic detection, then again the uploader could still change it. (For example I can imagine situation where e.g. some unit is used as decoration, with locust or spell immunity added. That would not change too much to call it not the same kind of melee in my eyes.
 
Level 32
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
3,960
I disagree with adding another category, it's redundant and it doesn't actually solve the competitive problem. I also feel that the poll is skewed towards tweaked melee because of a lack of explanation in the first post. Having tweaked melee represented as the de facto middle ground makes it seem more appealing, but there are other factors that make it not so.

A strictly competitive melee map is a 1v1 map that's balanced for all races and positions. This could also apply to 2v2, and sometimes 3s, 4s, and maybe small FFA. 5+ and big FFA gets to the point where it's too random and people often don't consider it to be balanced. But regardless of player count, the underlying ultimatum is that if it's not balanced, it shouldn't be competitive. That's why I feel that arguing from a competitive standpoint holds little merit, because the vast majority of melee maps on Hive are not based on them being competitive. They're often just made for fun with little regard for the complicated intricacies that goes into wc3 balance (not to say that's a problem). See filmting's Competitive Melee Map guide. Basically, our melee maps are imbalanced and only a few are competitive.
There's no way to filter which maps are competitive ready or not without extensive reviews and playtesting from melee players.

A melee map in technicality is one with no edited or custom content.
A melee map in actuality is one that stays true to all of what makes the gameplay melee. Slight changes like a custom item or creep that would 100% fit in an unaltered map are fine in melee because they don't actually change the gameplay to a fault, they're just little variances. It is this way, they are melee maps on Hive. It's just not explicitly stated in our rules but we can do something to change that.
Altered melee is anything that significantly changes melee gameplay while keeping the core "build base, gold mines and trees, destroy enemy base." They don't have to only be new races or have flurry of triggers, they can bear other significant tweaks to the gameplay like many custom items and creeps, huge changes to the resources, etc. Sure, that could mean they're not as special as the fancy altered melee maps but it's still approvable unless there are rules broken.


Kinda TL;DR
I believe it's fine the way it is, that melee maps with gameplay tweaks go to altered melee (unless the changes are so minor in a way I've explained above). I voted for altered melee. I also want to restate that little things such as altered/new items or creeps that would totally fit in an unedited melee map still makes it count as melee. It just doesn't make it 100% competitive, and most melee maps here aren't that anyway.

In most cases, authors who create a map with very minor tweaks intend for it to be melee. Author's who create a map with significant tweaks and changes (even if they aren't as grand) intend for it to be altered melee. The issue is when a review comes in a judges a map in a way the author doesn't intend - the reviewer's view and author's view don't match. This is generally due to a misunderstanding though, and we can help clear things up via the rules and discussions with reviewer and author.
 
Last edited:

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
A melee map in actuality is one that stays true to all of what makes the gameplay melee. Slight changes like a custom item or creep that would 100% fit in an unaltered map are fine in melee because they don't actually change the gameplay to a fault, they're just little variances. It is this way, they are melee maps on Hive. It's just not explicitly stated in our rules but we can do something to change that.
We're getting to what mafe wrote somewhere that you'd expect the melee tag to be for maps with no modifications apart from aesthetics, so that makes it annoying if you don't read the map's description where it mentions all those changes, assuming they're mentioned.
Altered melee is anything that significantly changes melee gameplay while keeping the core "build base, gold mines and trees, destroy enemy base." They don't have to only be new races or have flurry of triggers, they can bear other significant tweaks to the gameplay like many custom items and creeps, huge changes to the resources, etc. Sure, that could mean they're not as special as the fancy altered melee maps but it's still approvable unless there are rules broken.
I'm sorry but this conflicts with the substandard category. I am not to approve any mere alteration just because that's what you (the author or some other people) say altered melee is. Quality control should be a thing in this either we'd have to approve everything that's not blatantly insulting. So, something like this needs proper specifications so we know what to do.

As mentioned in the reserve, the tag descriptions have to be made public and set as rules.
 
Level 32
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
3,960
I'm sorry but this conflicts with the substandard category. I am not to approve any mere alteration just because that's what you (the author or some other people) say altered melee is. Quality control should be a thing in this either we'd have to approve everything that's not blatantly insulting. So, something like this needs proper specifications so we know what to do.
I don't understand how this conflicts with our rules of quality control?

1. A map is already good as a unique melee map if you take away the changes that don't make it melee
2. Since the map has significant changes that don't make it a melee map, it's rather an altered melee
3. But if the map isn't that heavily altered, it should be substandard? I don't think so, it should be approved if it follows the rules and in this example, it does.

We don't approve/reject altered melee maps based on how much change from melee it brings, we base it on how the rules explain quality.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
We don't approve/reject altered melee maps based on how much change from melee it brings, we base it on how the rules explain quality.
And how would making some campaign units available in the melee setting and increasing hitpoints of trees be making it a quality altered melee? It might be a good map but not a good altered melee map.
 
Level 3
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
30
Sharicasmi here, I'm here with a few prepared responses to hopefully clear things up about my intentions on my map 24 FFA Eastern Kingdoms. We obviously have a few conflicting ideas and I want to know what players think when it comes to classifying a 24man map as 'melee' or 'altered melee.' I don't really agree with calling it a 'tweaked melee' either.

-"Slight changes like a custom item or creep that would 100% fit in an unaltered map are fine in melee because they don't actually change the gameplay to a fault, they're just little variances. "
* No actually, having tome of knowledge/power set to drop off of the SAME 6 mobs in any melee map is UNACCEPTABLE. I don't like set drop items, and I've seen this ruin several maps. I don't want some BM clown running around sneaking away with all the good drops. Minus a healing potion or a glyph here or there, 95% of drops should be randomized. And you better be picky about your loot table. Part of what makes FFA matches fun is that they are unpredictable.

-A strictly competitive melee map is a 1v1 map that's balanced for all races and positions.
* Absolutely. I think all players & races should be equally at a disadvantage.

-A melee map in technicality is one with no edited or custom content.
* A melee map is also one that WORKS BY DEFAULT. Unfortunately, Undead blight is broken on maps larger than 256x256, so some changes had to be made.
[General] - Blight Bug - Can't build Undead Structures in Blight
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/bnet/topic/20762227119
Like all maps over 256x256, it becomes UNVIEWABLE with creep camp, neutral building, AND gold mine displays on. Siphon Mana can not target friendly heroes like it does in ladder games EVEN THOUGH it is set to use latest patch data. The game is broken, I am simply making things work more similar to how they would in a melee-ladder environment.

-Altered melee is anything that significantly changes melee gameplay while keeping the core "build base, gold mines and trees, destroy enemy base." They don't have to only be new races or have flurry of triggers, they can bear other significant tweaks to the gameplay like many custom items and creeps, huge changes to the resources, etc. Sure, that could mean they're not as special as the fancy altered melee maps but it's still approvable unless there are rules broken.
* Okay so aside from making things work where they didn't (Undead buildings, mobs loot table), I don't see how this is applicable to 24 Eastern Kingdoms.

-Trees should not have more HP than in the normal melee etc.
* Eastern Kingdoms is indeed a SMALL map for a 24 FFA, and it's been mentioned before that there would not be enough resources on the map for 24 players if the trees weren't providing at least 500 lumber each.

-I'm sorry but this conflicts with the substandard category. I am not to approve any mere alteration just because that's what you (the author or some other people) say altered melee is. the tag descriptions have to be made public and set as rules
* We just got the biggest patch since TFT. Did you honestly expect that people aren't going to want to run 24 player games? I think JSRG said it best when he said 'You're interpreting the rules of the Hive by the letter, not by the spirit of the rules. Which is a mark of poor moderation and reviewing."
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
This is not about your map, it's about altered melee and melee in general. I've used yours as an example. Please stop this defensive nonsense.

Anyways, the reason why I want the tweaked melee is to have a clear difference between an altered melee map like that guy's above and one like this: Deforestation of Felwood v2.1.1 because I sure won't put them on the same level of quality and melee is supposed to be those maps close to ladder and with no gameplay modifications at all.

First, the rules for the tags have to be written and then we'll see what we'll do or won't.
 
Level 26
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,556
Considering the Competitive melee play and competitive melee comunity is a serius thing, as it is, an outsider will think that melee maps are ment "or should be ment" for the competitive melee play.
Maps with "little changes will be discarted by the competitive melee players, that seeks Blizzard standard melee (only enviroment changes, like doodads) maps.

The idea is to help the audience to recognice a competitive melee map (or just a melee map) from a small changed melee map (new items, new markets, new mercenary camps units, all the same races).

The approve of small changed melee maps will mix the competitive melee maps with the "tweaked melee maps" and the users will have to read the description if it is well explained (just more boring to download). The idea is to help the users to know what they are downloading by only using the tags, and no need of read the full description.

About the 24 melee maps, as long they have the best balance they can, and follows the same lines as normal melee there should not be any problem with 24 melee maps. Same as 12, 8, 6,

I agree with @deepstrasz at 100% that there are maps that dont fit for the melee categoy and they dont have that many work (like only new items or only new tavern heroes) to be a good altered melee.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rui

Rui

Level 39
Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
7,480
@deepstrasz It is good that you brought this up! The maps you linked in the first post are clearly not melee, so it would definitely be an error to classify them as such. I remember, from my times as map moderator, that people would occasionally miscategorize their altered melee, as melee. My rule of thumb for melee maps is: few to no alterations, must use latest melee patch, and no changes whatsoever to techtrees.

Clearly, however, the altered melee category needs to be divided. From what I understand, "Sands of Time" is a melee map with special events and/or objectives, yes? This is clearly different from "Planetary Domination" with its completely redefined melee game. Not sure about calling it "tweaked melee" — that'll probably generate confusion. I'd divide altered melee in, at least:

Melee R+ — More races (a lot of altered melee maps just add 1 or more races);
Melee Events|Objectives — Events or special objectives;
Melee Slightly Altered — Melee with only a few alterations (unit stats, a replacement here in there on techtrees, neutral buildings selling battleships, etc);
Melee Overhauled — Complete new races or melee paradigm.​
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
I'd divide altered melee in, at least:
I think that would complicate things even further. Three melee tags are enough, the third being tweaked or whatever word you people think fits.
Sands of Time doesn't change the techtree but the gameplay is focused on an objective which makes it altered melee, somewhat soft, yes, but nevertheless not melee and certainly not mere touched.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
The poll has its majority for Tweaked Melee. Some people like it being called differently.
The name doesn't have to be "Tweaked". If somebody comes up with a better word for it, that's great. The point is, there should be a special category for such maps in order to avoid general confusion.
Nevertheless I think that any change for gameplay relevant data should automatically make the map classified altered melee. However, if the changes are small, is there anything that prevents mapmakers from uploading two files in one resources, one altered, one unaltered? So that the map resource could be classified as both "melee" and "altered melee" at the same time (For example, I use the filters for finding melee maps only, but would still be interested in altered melees that are basically still normal melees).
(and i really like the Melee+ name :cgrin:)

My biggest fear is just that by creating a whole new category, there wouldn't be many people looking these maps up as people would still click on melee.
I'd suggest putting in subcategories to Melee - the map browser would show both Melee and Melee+ maps and those who'd wish to look up just melee would further click on Melee (or Competitive or whatever name it would have). Altered would be left in its own category though since the maps sometimes alter way too much from the base game.
Summed up some of the less complicated ideas about the current poll situation.
@Ralle @Keiji @Archian @KILLCIDE
Please, let's settle this somehow else I'd be pretty much either avoid these maps and leave them Pending or send them to Substandardland.
Thank you.
 
Level 32
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
3,960
And how would making some campaign units available in the melee setting and increasing hitpoints of trees be making it a quality altered melee? It might be a good map but not a good altered melee map.
It doesn't matter how a map compares to others of a genre in terms of approval, only for subjective opinion and rating. All that matters for approval is if it satisfies the rules, and in the case of altered melee maps that aren't as grand, they are allowed in the category because of the rules.

But anyway, sure, we can move forward with this. This will not solve the competitive vs non-competitive issue at all, due to the reasons I listed here, but it's fair enough if the majority feel that this makes it easier for navigation. I personally feel that it's unnecessary and redundant on top of this not going to solve the concerns, but it won't hurt either. Tweaked is fine.

Ralle is a bit busy, but I'm sure he'll be able to execute the change soon.
 
Last edited:
Level 21
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
139
One question though - would the implementation of the tweaked melee category have an impact on older maps? Some maps that are now in the melee category might be closer to the possible tweaked category. E.g. Filmting's maps, which most of us consider as some of the best melee maps, might be considered "tweaked" in some cases - sunken ruins elementals sleep, higher cd on merc camps etc. Sure, they benefit the gameplay and make it more balanced, however if the definition of melee maps in the rules were "maps with no changes outside of aesthetics", would these maps lose their status of melee with the change of the rules?
 
Top