Hero Contest #3 - Avatar

[Element of Water]

vJass etc aren't "fashionable", they're popular. Big difference.

There are 10 points in coding for a reason -- obviously well-optimised, readable code would score more points than code that's a complete mess and hasn't had a single though about optimisation put into it.

GUI, by its very nature, is incredibly inefficient compared to Jass, and so it needs to be incredibly well-written in order to receive a fraction of the points in coding a decent vJass script would receive. Hell, in vJass we get criticised if we use locations for anything other than GetLocationZ, but GUI users are forced to use them.

 

[Anachron]

But still that doesn't have to do with the coder, but with the language the coder chosed.
You wouldn't like it either when you have to learn cJass just to score full points, would you?

 

[Element of Water]

cJass isn't any more efficient than Jass, however.

I'm not saying GUI coders can't score full points -- they can, but the code needs to be perfect to deserve it, in my opinion.

 

[Anachron]

That is what we are talking about.

 

[Kingz]

Leaks should be punished severely

Lag during regular melee play should be punished depending on severity

Bugs during melee gameplay should be signalled by anyone who sees them and punished according to severity and likelihood to appear

And the rest shouldn't (at all). That's because the other items don't impact efficiency except maybe by a constant (and very minor) factor.

If I understand the contest correctly, it is intented to make a single melee hero to be played in melee maps. It should NOT be the author's task to

* optimize the hero to the razor's edge of speed so that he can be played with another 1000 systems and scripts
* write his code so that it's a breeze to understand by anyone curious as to how a certain functionality was implemented
* structure his code according to any kind of aesthetical criteria

Wrong.

If you want maximal points in coding in GUI, you must make a organized efficent code which is easy to understand since all organized codes(by structure) are easy to understand.

 

[The Reborn Devil]

If that was referring to the bug with my spell (no other bug-related posts can be seen, unless it was deleted), please enlighten me. I still couldn't find out what is causing it.

I wasn't referring to your spell. I was talking to Element of Water.

To answer the rest of you talking about which systems are allowed:
Look at the first page. Everything is there.

Systems that do most of the work for you are not allowed. This includes things such as "Caster Systems". However, things such as damage detection or Struct attachment systems are fine as long as the author is credited.

That means knockback systems and damage detection systems and those small systems are alright as long as you give credits. You could probably get a slightly higher score if you make the systems yourself, because then you can maybe impress the judges (xD.Schurke and I) and make us believe you're a very good coder *hint hint*.

 

[alext]

vJass etc aren't "fashionable", they're popular. Big difference.

I maintain fashionable, i.e. popular and using it makes people appear more clever. Anyone's opinion may obviously differ, a bit besides the point though.

There are 10 points in coding for a reason -- obviously well-optimised, readable code would score more points than code that's a complete mess and hasn't had a single though about optimisation put into it.

coding = 10
(originality + synergy) = 30
My point is coding really isn't that much. I reckon they wanted most thought to go into gameplay (synergy and originality) with just enough coding ability to implement your ideas right.
That said, code that's a complete mess is very probably full of bugs and inefficient. So it'll probably fail anyway.

GUI, by its very nature, is incredibly inefficient compared to Jass, and so it needs to be incredibly well-written in order to receive a fraction of the points in coding a decent vJass script would receive.

I agree, GUI is terrible. And inefficient. But if the map works in O(2n) instead of O(n), it won't ever show in game. And if it's O(n^2) or worse, it'll probably cause game slowness and then it should be punished for that. Conversely, if jass code is written badly and slows the game, it should be punished just the same. My point: slowness or its absence should be punished or rewarded regardless of how it's caused. And gaining 0.1 frames per second should be seen for what it is: cute.

If you want maximal points in coding in GUI

God forbid. Personally, I hate it.

If you want maximal points in coding in GUI, you must make a organized efficent code which is easy to understand

True for GUI as well as Jass and all its flavours, etc etc

since all organized codes(by structure) are easy to understand

Remember, all generalizations are wrong.
Seriously, complex code is almost never easy to understand. Organization makes it more likely to work and helps with debugging, but ease of understanding decreases with complexity. Exponentially.

Got a bit carried away, sorry

 

[Kingz]

Remember, all generalizations are wrong.
Seriously, complex code is almost never easy to understand. Organization makes it more likely to work and helps with debugging, but ease of understanding decreases with complexity. Exponentially.

Depends of whether you actually know the stuff you are reading.

For example i suck at vector math so i still don't understand how could i use the Vector library, however i could read and find a needed section at any time since most wc3c scripts are organized.

 

[Element of Water]

Using vJass doesn't make you seem any more clever than normal Jass. People use it because they like the features, not because everyone else is using it, which is what fashionable means.

You're right, coding isn't that much. That's why it doesn't matter too much if a GUI code gets 5 points while the equivalent vJass code gets 10. What's 5 points, seriously

Just so you know, O(2n) isn't correct terminology. The O stands for that sort of thing.

 

[Kingz]

You're right, coding isn't that much. That's why it doesn't matter too much if a GUI code gets 5 points while the equivalent vJass code gets 10. What's 5 points, seriously

Crazy, crazy man...

I lost my 1st place in the last hero contest for 0.5 points in coding.

Every single point counts, get as much as you can

 

[alext]

Just so you know, O(2n) isn't correct terminology. The O stands for that sort of thing.

If you mean the fact that theoretically the equivalence class O(N) is equal to the equivalence class O(2*N) then yes I agree. It is however customary to use the big O notation like I did, although I admit it's not sound math.

Crazy, crazy man...

I lost my 1st place in the last hero contest for 0.5 points in coding.

Every single point counts, get as much as you can

Yes!

Depends of whether you actually know the stuff you are reading.

For example i suck at vector math so i still don't understand how could i use the Vector library, however i could read and find a needed section at any time since most wc3c scripts are organized.

Yeah, I guess you're right on this point. I was thinking more about large programs or mods, with lots of features that interact and things that happen at the same time. That's where bad code structure will be disastrous, and good structure will simply mean you have a chance to figure it out. I guess what I was trying to say is code 'cleanliness' is too subjective an issue to be scored similarly with leaks or gameplay bugs.

 

[krisserz]

Second WIP. The aura is nothing really interesting, but it may score some points in synergy. I may make it more interesting soon, when only I get any idea of what it could do...
And I must find better model...
Oh, I know. I haven`t searched yet for a skin. I may try...

 

[88WaRCraFT3]

i get an idea for first spell ACTIVE, Chaos inferno jump into air, and starts with chaos rain, every shard will damage area by 30, shard number is increased per level, and this spell is channeling. When he stops channeling, it will fall down on air and shake ground. Synergy will be between 1.,2. and 3. spells. Every one will increase something.
Guys what you think? is it original?

 

[Catch_ya]

i get an idea for first spell ACTIVE, Chaos inferno jump into air, and starts with chaos rain, every shard will damage area by 30, shard number is increased per level, and this spell is channeling. When he stops channeling, it will fall down on air and shake ground. Synergy will be between 1.,2. and 3. spells. Every one will increase something.
Guys what you think? is it original?

Actualy I'm abit confused about what you're saying right now. (Probably because I'm very sleepy). But sounds great.

Btw: Whit syngergy they mean like a lightning hero with lightning spells would score high points in synergy right? But a hero with a lightning ability an ice ability and a nature ability would score low if it was some kind of dark hero? Or with synergy they mean assisting each other spell like Diablo II?

 

[Pharaoh_]

Catch_ya, no, synergy means
I have a spell that damages a hero, but it requires health to cast. If I have a healing spell too, that is a synergy, because I actually replenish the hp lost from the previous cast or I have feedback ability and a spell that damages the hero, up to the mana he currently misses.

 

[88WaRCraFT3]

synergy is based between spells, how 2-3-4 spells function when you combinate they... and synergy is based on types of spells, if you use water hero and have fire spell, that isn't ok. But if you make an hero to be something like Elemental master, you will score synergy like in first text.

 

[Catch_ya]

Catch_ya, no, synergy means
I have a spell that damages a hero, but it requires health to cast. If I have a healing spell too, that is a synergy, because I actually replenish the hp lost from the previous cast or I have feedback ability and a spell that damages the hero, up to the mana he currently misses.

Oh now I understand thank you, also it is kinda hard to think out an original synergy that ain't based of life and mana.

Warcraft: Thanks to you aswell.

 

[Kingz]

Please note that you don't have to actually make all 4 skills synergize, since that could not only be hard to do but also can make your hero a bit imbalanced.

I think the best kind of synergy is 2 + 2 or 3 skills that synergize.

My opinion only though.

(2+2 means 2 skills synergize with each other and the other 2 synergize with themselves also)

EDIT:

There are also 2 kinds of synergy, active and passive ones.

Active is an actual synergy, for example casting the 2nd skill on an enemy with the buff from the 1st skill increases damage.

Passive for example: you have an AoE slow ability which is a instant cast and a channeling damage over time AoE skill which synergize well since you can first throw the slow to ensure maximal damage output of the DOT spell.

 

[88WaRCraFT3]

Looolz Kingz my spells are like you say! Are you in contest?

 

[Kingz]

Sure i am

 

[Pharaoh_]

Yeah, although the heroes are compared to the melee ones, some melee ones have no synergy within their spells' arsenal, e.g. Far Seer's Far Sight. That skill is a no-synergy to the rest of the spells. So, don't worry to be a bit off, balance-wise or synergy-wise, because apparently, not all of the heroes follow the same pattern.

 

[Kingz]

Far Seer is a all round hero, he has map control, troop reinforcement,a potent nuke and is good at debuffing enemies and ripping through enemies fortifications.

So yeah he has no synergy but he is an all round hero meaning he has all abilities that suit a hero but doesn't focus in either one, he can be used offensivelly, like a support or like a defense hero

 

[The Reborn Devil]

In this contest synergy means that the spells fit the hero. F.ex, a fire hero shouldn't have ice spells. That doesn't mean a fire hero can only have fire spells, but he shouldn't have ice spells. If you got a fire hero his/hers spells could be (these are just examples):
1. Fire ball
2. Incinerate
3. Heal
4. Hardened Armor

In this example only the two first are fire spells, but the others could fit. If you got a big infernal bastard then hardened armor would fit him.

 

[Vakama_Lynx]

In this contest synergy means that the spells fit the hero. F.ex, a fire hero shouldn't have ice spells. That doesn't mean a fire hero can only have fire spells, but he shouldn't have ice spells. If you got a fire hero his/hers spells could be (these are just examples):
1. Fire ball
2. Incinerate
3. Heal
4. Hardened Armor

In this example only the two first are fire spells, but the others could fit. If you got a big infernal bastard then hardened armor would fit him.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't synergy mean "how spells complement each other beneficially?" like teleport skill + AoE damage skill = teleport to hostile army then use AoE skill

 

[Pharaoh_]

Yes, Vakama_Lynx, I feel the same way. The_Reborn_Devil, seemingly no spell can have a concept-partner, unless it does respond to a same concept (e.g. fireball and fire explosion). If you have an ice spell and a fire spell, they fit together, even if they don't base themselves on the same element, but you shouldn't forget the fact that they are both elements. So, you don't really need an Elemental Summoner to state that these spells can be comined. Effects tend to become a bit off-concept, yet, if you have a fireball and an additional spell that heals the target, they seemingly don't match, but, if you give the healing spell the concept of the "sacred flame from the mountains that bind earth and sky (bla bla) = sacred flame", they perfectly match together.
So, synergy is actually how well the spells can complete each other in the gameplay. For the sake of consistency though, give them a mutual concept, so everyone is happy.

 

[Joe-black-5]

from what I know synergy means having spells that can make combos and complete each other to make the heroes full potential show up in all his spells combined
like for example a Slow aura + a damaging shield + some ability to get near the enemy
Dota used that combination for an abomination hero and that is why he was a success.

 

[krisserz]

from what I know synergy means having spells that can make combos and complete each other to make the heroes full potential show up in all his spells combined
like for example a Slow aura + a damaging shield + some ability to get near the enemy
Dota used that combination for an abomination hero and that is why he was a success.

That`s what I thought. But umm, well. The judge has already told what it is and how does he count it.

 

[The Reborn Devil]

I know that synergy actually means something else, but I'm quite sure we discussed this further back in the thread were it was revealed that the spells must fit the hero and the other spells. You don't necessarily need a spell which complements another spell. The only important thing is that the hero and it's spells resemble who you are, or at least who you would want to be in wc3.

 

[Joe-black-5]

of course the spells must fit the heroes D:
a firelord hero with a water pulse ability is just a shitty hero

 

[The Reborn Devil]

Lol, but I'm sure that was what he meant by synergy in this contest. The spells and the hero must fit your personality. Example: If I made a hero for this contest then he would obviously be a devil. A rabbit would be stupid and if that rabbit got spells like "Tactical Nuke" and stuff the spells would not fit the hero and the hero would not fit me, thus I would get 0 points in synergy because there's nothing that makes sense.


Edit: In the Triggers & Scripts Mini Contest which had the theme synergy it meant that the spells needed to complement each other, but here the hero must just fit you.

 

[Pharaoh_]

[quote="The_Reborn_Devil]but here the hero must just fit you.[/quote]

That obviously can't be judged properly, simply because you don't have a "map" of our chracteristics/wanna be stuff, through which you can compare the spells of ours, in order to find out what score we get for that part. So, spells fitting with each other says everything, in my opinion, both concept-wise and gameplay-wise.

 

[The Reborn Devil]

I can't determine if they fit you, that's up to you to decide, but when I go through the submissions I shouldn't go like: "wtf?". The spells and the hero must fit, but they don't need to complement each other like in the T&S Contest.

 

[xxdingo93xx]

Okay, here are 2 WIPs. I hope that's enough spoilered
Right now, 2 of 4 spells are done. Luckily, I am in a creative-phase ... I hope that means I am done sooner or later

 

[Catch_ya]

Who expected you to be a wolf, 8D? Also what does the spells do? Lol 'XXX'.

 

[xxdingo93xx]

Who expected you to be a wolf, 8D? Also what does the spells do? Lol 'XXX'.

I bet that's a rhetorical question, lulz.
Wermmm, those two spells I got right now are called Lightning Curse (autocastable) and Lightning Vortex (passive)
The Lightning Vortex just causes general damage when some conditions are satisfied, the Lightning Curse causes the unit to receive additional damage whenever it receives damage
See more when my submission is done.

 

[Catch_ya]

I bet that's a rhetorical question, lulz.
Wermmm, those two spells I got right now are called Lightning Curse (autocastable) and Lightning Vortex (passive)
The Lightning Vortex just causes general damage when some conditions are satisfied, the Lightning Curse causes the unit to receive additional damage whenever it receives damage
See more when my submission is done.

I will, sounds good.

 

[The Reborn Devil]

I bet that's a rhetorical question, lulz.
Wermmm, those two spells I got right now are called Lightning Curse (autocastable) and Lightning Vortex (passive)
The Lightning Vortex just causes general damage when some conditions are satisfied, the Lightning Curse causes the unit to receive additional damage whenever it receives damage
See more when my submission is done.

Lightning? I would never have guessed

 

[xxdingo93xx]

Lightning? I would never have guessed

Hehe, I know. I am just full of secrets <.< *irony off*

 

[Beast(TrOg)]

Are we comparing our heroes to the melee ones as in balance only or do our spells have to have a melee feel to it (not too flashy) also?

 

[Cr34p]

the heroes should be balanced for melee games

 

[The Reborn Devil]

Okay guys, I'll be gone until Monday (5th April), so I won't be able to answer any questions until then. The contest ends 14th April btw.

HAVE FUN GUYS AND GALS

 

[MultiGod]

It's not too late to participate right?

Here's my entry:

MultiGod - Infamous Gunman

Abilities

Magnum Bullets [ACTIVE]

The Gunman's next shots will be empowered by magnum leads, so that his attacks deal more damage and wound his target for 5 seconds.

Spreadshot [ACTIVE]

The Gunman shoots a shrapnel bullet from his rifle; the bullet will split into 3 and damage units pierced by them.

Vital Shot [PASSIVE]

Gives a chance that the Gunman's bullet will hit a vital part of his target, dealing bonus damage and stun, while inflicting it with a wound, dealing damage over time.

Verneshot [ACTIVE]

The Gunman shoots a bullet upwards, through the atmosphere, and after 3 seconds, the bullet will come back and create a massive impact, dealing damage to all units within the impact, including the Gunman himself.

Credits

TurieL
Blizzard Entertaiment
Huinipachutli
KelThuzad
shamanyouranus
www.wc3sear.ch
Freezer

This guy has 2 of his dummy abilities ready, and all the imports needed.
Please post any suggestions/improvements/critics/comments.

 

[88WaRCraFT3]

Those abilities looks like they are from dota. I think that spells aren't original.

 

[Kingz]

The fact 3 of your skills has the word "shot" in it makes me wonder how original it will be.

Though go ahead and prove me wrong.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Apparently, DotA won't affect the future of this contest; this is the reason of course why the main post contains this in the judging criteria:

Small derivations of standard WC3 heroes won't yield much score in this category.

As you can see, the comparison happens between our hero and a default Warcraft III hero, not heroes from other maps. Plus, just because you play DotA, it doesn't mean that the judge also does, so this "unoriginal" thing you see, the judge might not.

 

[88WaRCraFT3]

OK, but he can answer whatever he want, you can't get in his mind. There are that spells in DotA. Whatever... nvm

 

[Kingz]

And what would those spells be?

I can't really figure which spells are you talking about and i play dota often.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Well, I can only define Spreadshot = Scattershot (Rifleman). The rest ones are a bunch of effects, you can't blame him for copying DotA's spells. We've already seen all of the effects the WC3 engine supports, so, yes, sometimes, we can end up with unoriginal stuff; if that is what he pictures himself as a wc3 hero though, then that's fine.

 

[Anachron]

I should start my hero entry since I only have the concept.
Anyway, the required MissleEngine for my Ultimate is nearly finished.
CustomMissle

 

[88WaRCraFT3]

here it is :
headshot = vital shot
vernesshot = scattershot
from hero rifleman(sniper)