Hero Contest #3 - Avatar

[Freyleyes]

Hey, what about the imports? Should we have a limit there?

NOTICE: I think the rule over the passive skill should be changed. This follows a free theme now, and this passive one would ruin it in my opinion. I mean, having a passive skill is like expressing a passive aspect of us ^_^ Let the contestant decide how they want their spellset to look like.

I think no limit is needed(on imports), lets limit the map size to no more then 1 meg?

The only reason I made the passive a must is because it was there in the previous contest. So should we remove it or not?

PLEASE READ THIS

The "Theme" judging criteria will be changed to Synergy, and the reason for that is this:

Some people link the theme like this, the model must fit the spells. I believe that is not necessary, the spells must fit in with each other(Synergy). So the theme does not link with the "Model and spells", but within the spells.

Just to clear things up.

 

[Pharaoh_]

I am planning to add some models to define the theme I've envisioned, that's why I am asking. Plus, since we move a bit "off" the warcraft III boundaries, I think no limit should be added at all.

For the passive skill, it's up to the contestants to decide whether they want a couple of passive skills to be added, all skills to be passive or none of the skills to be passive. If they of course choose the all of the skills to be passive, it will become rather dull, but still, it should be them who decide what they want and what not.

 

[Aspard]

Hey, what about the imports? Should we have a limit there?

Imports has always been limited only due to the factor "They shouldn't be restricted from usage" I don't think that will be a good idea to limit the imports by volume or HiveWorkshop site. For what then do people invent all these beatiful SFXs?

 

[Pharaoh_]

Exactly, Apsard, if we are limited to use models in a site, which is an open source for models, this will be ironic

 

[Freyleyes]

Point taken, There should be no limits on imports.

 

[Pyritie]

"Imports should be publicly available", perhaps?

 

[Aspard]

"Imports should be publicly available", perhaps?

Yes, that's exactly I was trying to say. If I can download and use it, then - why not?

 

[krisserz]

And what about balancing? Shouldn`t these heroes from Hero Contests be made for melee maps-like?
The point-counting is... I don`t like it. You make out from this contest coding contest, not hero creating.
Just look at the scoring at Hero Contest #2

 

[Aspard]

Hmm... This man is right in some case... Half of total points go for coding, however, this is Hero Contest, so I think that should be concept at this place... Maybe set all positions of rating to the same level of e.g. 10?

 

[krisserz]

Umm, well. I don`t think it`s good idea at all. For example just for making spells that fit each other (like making combos), and their coding will suck, you`d gain same number of points like for coding right the spells what is harder.

 

[Pyritie]

balancing is important too, yeah

 

[Kingz]

Coding should take 1/3 of the final score i would say.

Theme/Balance/Originality should be a big factor also just like in the previous contest.

I disagree on the fact someone wants to have no restrictions about using systems, if you want to join this contest and win earn it,abusing large systems to do your bidding in a contest is wrong.

General rules should apply on imports, right?(no ripped contest and so on)

I also enforce the rule about 1 passive ability, almost all heroes in normal WC have one, and it isn't so hard to make a passive ability.

EDIT:

Will requesting resources(read: Icons) be allowed?

If for example i am in a need of icons for my hero abilities is asking for an icon from a THW member seen as a teamwork or is it forbidden?

 

[Freyleyes]

I disagree on the fact someone wants to have no restrictions about using systems, if you want to join this contest and win earn it,abusing large systems to do your bidding in a contest is wrong.

General rules should apply on imports, right?(no ripped contest and so on)

I also enforce the rule about 1 passive ability, almost all heroes in normal WC have one, and it isn't so hard to make a passive ability.

Thank You.

I think it should be ok to request an icon or model. What makes that different from using one already made?

 

[Avator]

I think 'using large systems' can be defined as systems that control over 1/3rd or so of 1 spell or other characteristic. A knockback spell (using an existing knockback system) with damage added is more then 1/3rd made of the system. That should not be allowed. The greater part of each spell must be your own work.

 

[Element of Water]

Don't disqualify that kind of thing, just don't give too many points for code.

PS: I'm joining, already have an awesome idea for a water-based hero.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

I would say that you might want to pick a map type theme for the heroes, as heroes for an AoS and a Melee map would definitely be different as pointed out before.

Perhaps AoS style maps?

 

[Direfury]

I'm not sure but I think it was made clear that the heroes are for Melee-style combat.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

Well I checked the rules in the beginning and there's nothing signaling what type of game the hero should be made for.

 

[Direfury]

Check the entire thread, I think it was mentioned somewhere.

Also,
By George, you can see my posts! Shit, man, I thought this was another one of those forums that delay newbies' posts, or don't show them for a day or so.

 

[Deaod]

if you want to join this contest and win earn it,abusing large systems to do your bidding in a contest is wrong.

If anyone does that and still manages to make the hero unique and interesting, he deserves a high rating. If its not unique or interesting, well, you have the design category for judging (which is far too underrated currently). And i think spells that are in large parts handled by an external script cant be all that innovative.

Seriously, whats the problem with allowing all possible scripts to be used?

 

[Direfury]

I say they should just allow the basics, like jump & knockback, let you modify them if you wish to do so.

 

[Kingz]

Seriously, whats the problem with allowing all possible scripts to be used?

There is nothing wrong with that, IF it isn't for a contest.

Seriously these contest have like a 20-30 days of duration, if you are so lazy not to spend at least some time on your hero and actually earn something then that is your problem.

Using large systems does almost all the work for you, you got a lot of time, use it.

I think people should stop arguing about this, it is already in the rules and i think it will stay in the rules, if you don't like the game rules don't play the game, it is as easy as that.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Yes, I agree with the restriction of implementing such codes. You get your hero fancy through the work of another person; how fancy is that? Even if you credit them, it doesn't make the hero look special, because all these free-codes are generated for maps, not contests and when rules are defined, they cannot be revoked. No hero contest has changed the rules over this. We've already revoked the rule of jump and knockback systems, what else do you want? Previous contests restricted us from that rule too.
Whatever, if you want to get disqualified, go ahead. It will be your dummy head's fault, which cannot settle down.

 

[Deaod]

Again, i dont care how previous contests were handled. Previous contests are no excuse.

We've already revoked the rule of jump and knockback systems, what else do you want?

I want to code however i wish to and not be restricted by some idiots rules from 4 years ago. If i deem xe necessary (which is a good thing in most real-world scenarios), then let me fucken use it. Again, this is a design contest, in contrast to Zephyr, which is a coding contest.
Oh, look at Hero Contest #1 and see how much coding mattered back then. 0%.

if you are so lazy not to spend at least some time on your hero and actually earn something then that is your problem.

You know, i have better things to do than reimplementing xe. Its not about the effort id put in it. Its about not going crazy reimplementing trivial shit for the hundredth time.

Using large systems does almost all the work for you, you got a lot of time, use it.

Use it for what? Doing work already done? No, thanks. Ill use my time for something else. When im done with my spell, im done. I dont want to spend more time coding things i could simply import.

when rules are defined, they cannot be revoked.

The contest hasnt started yet. The rules could still be changed.

I feel like im talking to a wall. Im repeating myself endlessly.

Edit:

Whatever, if you want to get disqualified, go ahead. It will be your dummy head's fault, which cannot settle down.

So if i get disqualified because i wrote "good" code (yeah, using other people's code is actually a good thing, imo), its MY fault? And those who reimplemented knockback #125 get thumbs up? Seriously? If thats what you want then i must tell you that youre far from what id consider sane.

 

[Kingz]

Deaod just do whatever you want and if the judges think it is right, good for you.

1 individual can't make a difference for the whole community, and it shouldn't be like that.

Also i thought PY was clear when stating this contest will have the same rules as the others before it so just drop it already.

If you are really want to have the rules changed you should have mentioned it earlier i think, or contacted the moderators so they can discuss it.

I still think it shouldn't be changed, XE does almost all for you and besides you should work hard on your hero, so what if you reinvent the wheel in the process, practice makes perfect.

EDIT:

Again, i dont care how previous contests were handled. Previous contests are no excuse.

So why should anyone care about your opinion? Also does that mean previous contest were bad? I didn't enter a lot of contest during my time on THW but the previous zephyr/hero/mini scripts contests were all fine so i seriously don't see why you think those contest can serve as an excuse, afaik all of those have ended with a good amount of submissions, without major mistakes and with a lot of happy contestants.

EDIT2:

You are just making this hard for the host of the contest and postponing the moment when this contest will get aproved.

 

[Pharaoh_]

First off, Deaod, watch your language, don't turn a fun contest into a nightmare.

This is a community, we all settle down with rules and we all join in realising rules, but, as you can see it's only you who complains that much. You have a point, you surely do, I mean regenerating the same code is really bad, but apparently, this is not a Jass-only contest, this involves GUI too, which you know that it is really weak by default. The balance between GUI and Jass codes would afterwards be none at all and then people who used GUI will be fairly crying for Jass being biased (which already is, by the nature of this language, versus GUI).

Some certain rules should be held for coding too, because if theme/synergy is the 50% of this contest, coding is an additional 50%. Previous contests define the history and the future of additional contests, you can't ignore them. Just because you find it a bad idea, it doesn't mean that the whole system will change. It's like a country had been experiencing wars and wars and some guy today said "No more war" and the wars are suddenly over (you get the point anyway).

So, to sum up, if you consider the rules too anorthodox for you or cannot compromise with the others' input, there is also the solution of not-joining, so that both sides will stay away from quarrels.

 

[Deaod]

First off, Deaod, watch your language

Thanks, but ill keep to what the moderators tell me about my language.

This is a community, we all settle down with rules and we all join in realising rules, but, as you can see it's only you who complains that much.

Yes. I am "a nutcase on a holy war". I complain because i brought the same topic up in the last Zephyr contest. This topic even has its own sticky dedicated to it in the Contest Submission Forum. Obviously noone cares for what was said back then. Well, except me.

but apparently, this is not a Jass-only contest, this involves GUI too, which you know that it is really weak by default

What does that have to do with anything? Are you implying that GUI users would have disadvantages because GUI isnt as portable as JASS is?

The balance between GUI and Jass codes would afterwards be none at all and then people who used GUI will be fairly crying for Jass being biased (which already is, by the nature of this language, versus GUI).

WTF? You use GUI and then complain because you didnt put in the effort to learn JASS? What kind of logic is that?

Some certain rules should be held for coding too, because if theme/synergy is the 50% of this contest, coding is an additional 50%.

Hero Contest #1 did fine with 100% being Design. Just saying... . I do agree with Coding playing a role, though i dont agree with it playing the major role.

Previous contests define the history and the future of additional contests, you can't ignore them.

No. Previous contests are entirely irrelevant. The nature of this change is not something huge and defining. Like changing the focus of a contest.

So, to sum up, if you consider the rules too anorthodox for you or cannot compromise with the others' input, there is also the solution of not-joining, so that both sides will stay away from quarrels.

Maybe ill join and maybe i wont.

Deaod just do whatever you want and if the judges think it is right, good for you.

I will.

1 individual can't make a difference for the whole community, and it shouldn't be like that.

Im well aware of that. Its the reason im still talking.

I still think it shouldn't be changed, XE does almost all for you and besides you should work hard on your hero, so what if you reinvent the wheel in the process, practice makes perfect.

1.) XE doesnt do "all the work" for you.
2.) Practice is tiresome. And the "practice" youre talking about is boring, uncreative and stupid (meaning the kind of thing youd be doing is stupid).

Also does that mean previous contest were bad?

Read again. Did i say that? I dont think so. Frankly, i dont know if previous contests were bad or not because i didnt participate. But its moot because previous contests are irrelevant to this one.

i seriously don't see why you think those contest can serve as an excuse

Seems like i said something i didnt really want to say. Sorry, what i meant with that was: "Previous contests are no excuse for not changing the rules of this contest."

You are just making this hard for the host of the contest and postponing the moment when this contest will get aproved.

Damn, you saw right through my evil intentions, robbing all of you of your fun in this contest and delaying the contest for as long as possible.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Look, I'm kind of tired, arguing with people that are just too selfish to admit none agrees with them.
You know what? Keep it up, because with that attitude, driving people to "join", we'll have the most successful contest!

 

[Freyleyes]

Lets keep it friendly Deaod, this contest is fun. There where no big problems in previous contest of this kind. A hero contest is a coding contest, like PY said, instead of 1 spell, there is 4.

The problem is, when allowing any system( for a contest) ,where do you draw the line? Some people are going to use Xe and then still create an awesome spell that is original and most of the code is self scripted, so in other words 75%+ of the code the contestant wrote himself. Then you are going to get someone that also uses xe and he only coded 10% of the spell. So how is that fair? Both contestants are going to have to get the same points for coding, no?

So lets stop arguing, and lets enjoy this contest.

Why not settle disputes with the mods for the next contest? Hold a pole and see what the people think. There was a similar debate about what systems to use and what not in the Zephyr Challenge #6

 

[Aspard]

Look, I'm kind of tired, arguing with people that are just too selfish to admit none agrees with them.
You know what? Keep it up, because with that attitude, driving people to "join", we'll have the most successful contest!

At last! Really clever thought
I'm happy you finished this And we can continue enjoying the contest.
We just shouldn't pay attention to this fact. Really - let everybody does, what they can and thew way they want. We got some disqualified entries on previous hero contest (Even due to the fact, that a number of them were disqualified even with permission to use knockback system from contest moderator). So why can't we do the same again?

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

The problem is, when allowing any system( for a contest) ,where do you draw the line? Some people are going to use Xe and then still create an awesome spell that is original and most of the code is self scripted, so in other words 75%+ of the code the contestant wrote himself. Then you are going to get someone that also uses xe and he only coded 10% of the spell. So how is that fair? Both contestants are going to have to get the same points for coding, no?

Yeah for GUI I guess? - This thread turned to big walls of thread fast - any word on it getting approved?

 

[Direfury]

Hopefully it will be, this is an awesome theme.

 

[Freyleyes]

PY said its good to go

 

[Adiktuz]

idea seems nice...

 

[Kingz]

So we can hope for an offical start soon?

That sounds awesome.

@Deaod

I share some of your opinions but some of them not.

Damn, you saw right through my evil intentions, robbing all of you of your fun in this contest and delaying the contest for as long as possible.

I didn't mean that. The fact is that by this debate the aproval date is getting pushed back, which frankly bothers me as i want to participate and i want to do so while i got free time, not when i am buried in piles of tests and have to polish my grades for the finish of this school year.

 

[Element of Water]

I agree fully with Deaod. When it all comes down to it, why rewrite code that has already been written, probably in a better way than you can write it for 4 spells in the limited duration of the contest? These things exist, so use them! If there was a house-building competition, would you get disqualified for not making each of your bricks by hand? I doubt it. A machine would make them in a factory, and everyone would have the same advantage. Everyone would have the same advantage here, too (as long as you list places to get useful systems, such as the spells, systems and JASS databases of The Hive, Wc3C and The Helper.

 

[Pyritie]

There I edited it a bit. What do you guys think now (especially the judging criteria)

I agree fully with Deaod. When it all comes down to it, why rewrite code that has already been written, probably in a better way than you can write it for 4 spells in the limited duration of the contest? These things exist, so use them! If there was a house-building competition, would you get disqualified for not making each of your bricks by hand? I doubt it. A machine would make them in a factory, and everyone would have the same advantage. Everyone would have the same advantage here, too (as long as you list places to get useful systems, such as the spells, systems and JASS databases of The Hive, Wc3C and The Helper.

I'd say it's more along the lines of "everyone gets the same bricks and same resources, make what you can with them but you are not allowed to use anything that builds the house for you". That way there's a level playing field.

 

[krisserz]

It`s bettter. But I think you should swap scoring for coding and synergy. The coding is a little bit more important then synergy.

 

[Element of Water]

I disagree. A hero is boring and useless to play as with skills that don't fit together. The code doesn't really matter as long as it's leak-free, MUI and efficient enough not to lag.

 

[Aspard]

I disagree. A hero is boring and useless to play as with skills that don't fit together. The code doesn't really matter as long as it's leak-free, MUI and efficient enough not to lag.

What? Fit together and synergy are two different criterias. As for me - Far Sight / Chain Lightning and Wolve Spirits don't have synergy at all. Do you mean common Blizzard heroes are a piece of garbage and they are not interesting to play?

 

[Element of Water]

Wolf spirits allows the hero to not take damage while casting chain lightnings/earthquakes from the back, far sight is just an added utility skill.

"Synergise" means "Work together".

 

[Aspard]

Wolf spirits allows the hero to not take damage while casting chain lightnings/earthquakes from the back, far sight is just an added utility skill.

"Synergise" means "Work together".

And Fer Seers skills don't work together Your example is far-fetched
Nevermind, I'm going to prove you anything about my opinion. Probably you are right - who knows?

 

[ronojales]

can i ask? what is a hero's name? is that the proper name (Arthas, Sylvanas, etc) or the one at the EXP bar? X]

 

[xD.Schurke]

maybe a second member should be join the judging... in the end there may will be people feeling disadvantaged or similar.

 

[Pharaoh_]

I agree, TriggerHappy or The_Reborn_Devil, we want you here..

 

[Freyleyes]

I agree, TriggerHappy or The_Reborn_Devil, we want you here..

I second that. Ill send them a VM or a PM

WE NEED ANOTHER JUDGE FOR THE CONTEST
IF YOU ARE INTERESTED, PLEASE POST IN THIS THREAD

 

[Kingz]

Imo coding should take the same amount in the score as synergy/originality.

I don't mind the current state but that is my opinion.

 

[HailFireer]

Last contest head great reception so I say why not.

But I don't like coding is so important, Aldo it is less here then in previous ones before.
It handicaps people who don't know jass, since judge cant really gave same score on perfect jass, and perfect GUI.

 

[Pyritie]

can i ask? what is a hero's name? is that the proper name (Arthas, Sylvanas, etc) or the one at the EXP bar? X]

proper name

 

[Direfury]

Oh man I can't wait, this is gonna be intense.