Hero Contest #3 - Avatar

[Aspard]

Maybe approve it already?

 

[Eccho]

A confirmed second judge first would be nice first, would it not?

 

[The Reborn Devil]

I can join as judge.

 

[Freyleyes]

I added The_Reborn_Devil as the second judge! Now we can get this contest off the ground!

 

[Direfury]

When's this starting exactly?

 

[Freyleyes]

Sunday the 15th (Hopefully)

Good luck to all the contestants!, lets see some cool heroes!

 

[xD.Schurke]

monday... :O

 

[Eccho]

What a pity, I have so much going on right now... maybe Ill catch up in the end of march:/

 

[ronojales]

join join X]

 

[Direfury]

Oh man I can't wait for monday so I can destroy you guys.

 

[Element of Water]

Do you even know vJass/Zinc? If not, you probably don't stand a chance - I'm planning some spells that would be near-impossible to make in GUI or even vanilla Jass.

 

[Aspard]

Do you even know vJass/Zinc? If not, you probably don't stand a chance - I'm planning some spells that would be near-impossible to make in GUI or even vanilla Jass.

][_,([])][_,ed. It's a joke, right? About not even leaving a chance?

 

[xD.Schurke]

i think Zinc is not allowed

 

[Element of Water]

][_,([])][_,ed. It's a joke, right? About not even leaving a chance?

Err, no.

i think Zinc is not allowed

I don't see that anywhere in the rules, and why shouldn't it be allowed? It works with normal JassHelper.

And if it's an issue with the judging (judges don't know Zinc), you can always force a vJass syntax error to get the code to come up in vJass.

 

[Aspard]

Err, no.

Uhm, well... Then, explain please, why do you think, that your using of technology not everyone possesses will lead to your beating them? I don't see any judjing criteria stating that super-duper Jass spells will get more points for coding than good GUI spells.

And if you think that you'll beat shit of us by providing cool spells - then it's just a vainglory. Nobody knows, whos idea will be coolest.

Jass has only a small plus in a coding part, but it doesn't influence in any way on four other parts of judjing criteria, dude. We have a proverb in our country: "Vainglory punishes itself"

I don't see that anywhere in the rules, and why shouldn't it be allowed?

And I'm not sure, but probably this site rule forbids using Zinc?

Compatibility
Currently, spells are allowed in Vanilla GUI (No third party GUI modifications), JASS, or vJASS. All spells must be 1.24 compatible.

 

[Eccho]

Zinc is as much supported as cJass is... In other words, not supported afaIk.

 

[Element of Water]

Uhm, well... Then, explain please, why do you think, that your using of technology not everyone possesses will lead to your beating them? I don't see any judjing criteria stating that super-duper Jass spells will get more points for coding than good GUI spells.

And if you think that you'll beat shit of us by providing cool spells - then it's just a vainglory. Nobody knows, whos idea will be coolest.

Jass has only a small plus in a coding part, but it doesn't influence in any way on four other parts of judjing criteria, dude. We have a proverb in our country: "Vainglory punishes itself"

I'm planning some spells that would be near-impossible to make in GUI or even vanilla Jass

Seriously, other people will too. I highly doubt a GUI user will win the contest.

And I'm not sure, but probably this site rule forbids using Zinc?

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/site-discussion-97/zinc-resources-acceptable-146328/

It's not against the site rules

 

[Pharaoh_]

If the judges can't test the Zinc lagnauge, it's not Element of Water's problem actually. As far as this language performs well and does the job, it should be acceptable.

 

[xD.Schurke]

it's not about the judging, I know Zinc and it's features etc. but Zinc is just not stated in the rules:

The spells can be made using GUI, JASS, vJASS, or just significant object editor work.

 

[Pharaoh_]

That's a copy paste from the previous contest; Zinc was not really known back then.

 

[xD.Schurke]

there specially for you c&p spell rules:

Compatibility
Currently, spells are allowed in Vanilla GUI (No third party GUI modifications), JASS, or vJASS. All spells must be 1.24 compatible.

 

[Tleno]

I knew earlier or later there will be a contest like this... since my last try to join a contest was a major fiasko, I thing I'll pass this time... altough theme is really simple and fun...

 

[Duruka]

Do you even know vJass/Zinc? If not, you probably don't stand a chance - I'm planning some spells that would be near-impossible to make in GUI or even vanilla Jass.

I don't know Jass, but I'm not here to win. Just for fun and practice.

 

[Element of Water]

The rules still need to be updated, obviously, because Zinc resources most definitely are allowed, if you'd read my link a few posts ago.

I don't know Jass, but I'm not here to win. Just for fun and practice.

Fine by me.

 

[xD.Schurke]

EoF... this thread does not state that Zinc is allowed if you can read, Poot just said that there is no reason to disallow it. But the spellsection rules still do't mention Zinc so it's not accepted as a script format (officialy)

 

[Freyleyes]

Jass and vJass is indeed more powerful, but I can assure you that GUI users can create awesome spells. Even if you have all the power in the world, but no use for it, its still useless. So yea, without an good idea, your spell will still suck even if it's vJass.

I am sorry, but what is Zinc

Edit

I see no problem with this so called Zinc. But we should ask the judges and PY as well.

 

[Pyritie]

But we should ask the judges and PY as well.

Why do people keep writing my name in all caps? >__>

 

[krisserz]

Why do people keep writing my name in all caps? >__>

py, you didn`t answer ;p

 

[Element of Water]

EoF... this thread does not state that Zinc is allowed if you can read, Poot just said that there is no reason to disallow it. But the spellsection rules still do't mention Zinc so it's not accepted as a script format (officialy)

Yes, JH support will of course be maintained as it is the standard.

I think that's a pretty unquestionable YES.

PS: You have to remember that this was when Poot was "Site Director" or whatever, so if he said they're acceptable, they're acceptable...

 

[Deaod]

I dont like to be a party pooper here, but none of you have even tried to challange most of the points i brought up. How about you give me some good answers and try to convince me? Let me reiterate my points for you:

• Reimplementing large systems is tiresome and entirely unnecessary. I hope i dont have to explain why.
• Minimum complexity of code should be a goal for most people. That doesnt mean you should sacrifice originality and gameplay for simplicity. The hundredth Fireball spell is neither original nor appealing.
• Previous contests are irrelevant, since the changes i propose (now that the judging criteria have already changed) dont radically change the contest.

 

[The Reborn Devil]

Deaod, I don't actually care if you use a big system, but what I do care about is that at least 75% of the code is done by you from scratch, so if you use a system which got 1000 lines then your spell must have at least 3000 lines of code, and that goes for each spell, meaning if you make 4 spells using that system then you will end up with at least 12000 lines of code and that won't make me happy.
For the minimum complexity thing that's fine. Spells which use overcomplicated means to accomplish something that could be done easier will get reduced ratings from me.
And last, I like how it is now.

 

[Deaod]

Then you wont see any (valid) vJass entries. Hell, TimerUtils has 100+ lines. I dont want to write 300+ lines per spell. Go to hell with that. If someone uses another library to minimize complexity, you shouldnt penalize him for that, as hes doing it right.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Spells which use overcomplicated means to accomplish something will get reduced ratings from me.

Let's hope you're saying that for the big systems you mentioned previously, because seriously, if you already are biased in favour of complex spells, don't judge at all. How are people supposed to make something original? With a dummy to cast Stormbolt? They of course need complicated spells. We're at a point, where almost everything has already been seen and made.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

Well it takes much more work to do, but you can make GUI spells just as complicated as vJass spells. Perhaps instead of penalizing for using other peoples systems in general, make a few "approved" systems that are normally used like the TimerUtils

 

[Eccho]

Then you wont see any (valid) vJass entries. Hell, TimerUtils has 100+ lines. I dont want to write 300+ lines per spell. Go to hell with that. If someone uses another library to minimize complexity, you shouldnt penalize him for that, as hes doing it right.

That's about what my Jass spells do take, including blank rows and comments. TimerUtils contains that too, meh.

 

[Deaod]

Want some stats?

Dusks Knockback library has 300 lines.
AutoIndex has ~800 lines.
TimerUtils has ~250 lines.

 

[Kingz]

Isn't TRD talking about large systems?

Also can't belive this is still an argue, the host of the contest has stated his opinion about this and shouldn't it be accepted and followed?

 

[TriggerHappy]

Scripts should be allowed. Systems should not.

And Deaod is right. I don't want to see a bunch of people re-making shitty versions of already made scripts.

 

[xD.Schurke]

but there should be exceptions for systems like damagedetection/knockback

 

[ronojales]

this has already started.. right? :O

 

[Pyritie]

Scripts should be allowed. Systems should not.

And Deaod is right. I don't want to see a bunch of people re-making shitty versions of already made scripts.

Exactly. Stuff like knockback and whatnot, i.e. small scripts are fine. Huge systems are not.

this has already started.. right? :O

No.

 

[ronojales]

No.

alright, just checking 'cause the date is march 15. thanks! :3

 

[Deaod]

Huge systems are not.

Why? Why wont you let me use xe or any other sufficiently complex system? If i need scalable, moveable effects, let me use xefx. If i want custom buffs, let me use Dusk's IBS. If i need dummy casters, let me use xecast.

I dont think anyone is seriously going to try and use SEE in his submission.

 

[The Reborn Devil]

Let's hope you're saying that for the big systems you mentioned previously, because seriously, if you already are biased in favour of complex spells, don't judge at all. How are people supposed to make something original? With a dummy to cast Stormbolt? They of course need complicated spells. We're at a point, where almost everything has already been seen and made.

I didn't mean that. I meant that you won't get a high scoring if you use an overcomplicated way to do something which could be done simpler.

Example:

(Overcomplicated way)

scope ex initializer Init
globals
    string array rofl
endglobals

private function DoEet takes nothing returns nothing
    local integer i = 0
    local string s = ""
    loop
        exitwhen i > 7
        set s = s + rofl[i]
        set i = i + 1
    endloop
    call BJDebugMsg(s)
endfunction

private function Init takes nothing returns nothing
    set rofl[0] = "H"
    set rofl[1] = "a"
    set rofl[2] = "i"
    set rofl[3] = " "
    set rofl[4] = "t"
    set rofl[5] = "h"
    set rofl[6] = "a"
    set rofl[7] = "r"
    call DoEet()
endfunction
endscope

(Normal way)

scope ex initializer Init

private function Init takes nothing returns nothing
    call BJDebugMsg("Hai thar")
endfunction
endscope

See what I mean?

 

[Pharaoh_]

Yeah, and that example is so lolen

 

[The Reborn Devil]

Then you wont see any (valid) vJass entries. Hell, TimerUtils has 100+ lines. I dont want to write 300+ lines per spell. Go to hell with that. If someone uses another library to minimize complexity, you shouldnt penalize him for that, as hes doing it right.

1. Don't use TimerUtils
2. Write the damn 300 lines. It's not that much. I often write spells containing 600 lines without timer utils or other systems. And that's done in one day..

Also, you don't need to use another system for it to be valid. Any entry is valid as long as it doesn't break any rules. Also, the 75% thing isn't something only I said. Go back a few pages and you'll see the others say it too.

 

[Element of Water]

1. TimerUtils is essential when you need to do anything with timers other than an indexed struct spell system.
2. 4 spells at 300 lines each = a lot of work = not many contestants finish = bad contest

 

[Pyritie]

Why? Why wont you let me use xe or any other sufficiently complex system?

...do it the normal way?

If i want custom buffs, let me use Dusk's IBS.

Object editor + dummy unit!

If i need dummy casters, let me use xecast.

Object editor + few lines of code!

Your way is like taking a car and driving to put something in the mailbox 30m away. Sure it's easier but that doesn't mean it's better.

 

[Kingz]

2. 4 spells at 300 lines each = a lot of work = not many contestants finish = bad contest

This is a joke right?

The last hero contest had heroes which were even more detailed(read more lines) and it didn't fail.

I don't like the comments like "this contest will be a fail" only because the rules don't suit you personally.

 

[Deaod]

The last hero contest had heroes which were even more detailed(read more lines) and it didn't fail.

Did all of them have that much detail?

do it the normal way?

The normal way would be using those systems.

Object editor + dummy unit!

No. Theres a reason Dusk wrote that system.

Object editor + few lines of code!

Theres a reason Vex wrote xecast.

Your way is like taking a car and driving to put something in the mailbox 30m away. Sure it's easier but that doesn't mean it's better.

In the scenario youre describing, using the car would be the inferior solution.

1. Don't use TimerUtils

Id rather cut my wrists than redo what has already been done.

2. Write the damn 300 lines. It's not that much. I often write spells containing 600 lines without timer utils or other systems. And that's done in one day..

If you didnt notice, i had to correct myself: TimerUtils has nearly 250 lines. That means even your 600 lines spell wouldnt satisfy your own requirements.