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The Howling Pass v1.0

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General Information:
-1v1
-128x128 Size


Buildings:
-4 Gold Mines
-2 Mercenary Camps (Lordearon Summer)
-2 Goblin Shops
-2 Taverns

Camps:
-6 Green camps
-8 Orange camps

Description:
The Howling Pass is a difficult part of the path all merchants must travel on their way to the capital. Only the toughest travellers are known for making it through.
Contents

The Howling Pass (Map)

Reviews
Cigaro
Some of the terrain looks pretty cool. The Northrend trees kick ass here: Seems to prove once again that Sunken Ruins can be combined with nearly anything. === The heavy wind effect may be a bit too extreme, but then again weakening it would...
WolfFarkas
As enviroment, I like the semicircle but it blocks access to wood for harvesting and skills in terms of balance. I think this map fits for a tavern in the middle IMO. wowowow, the campaign unit stonemaul chief with 3300 hp??? I think that unit was...
deepstrasz
Some creatures like the Lightning Revenant have low mana. You should set it to full individually for every unit. Mud Golems too. Recheck creep camps. Not sure it was necessary to have two Taverns and they're pretty close to the bases. The undead mine...
Level 12
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
104
Some of the terrain looks pretty cool. The Northrend trees kick ass here:

trees.jpg


Seems to prove once again that Sunken Ruins can be combined with nearly anything.

===

The heavy wind effect may be a bit too extreme, but then again weakening it would kind of kill the magic, wouldn't it?

I'm not sure what the point of having two taverns is, when you might as well place a single one right in the center? Or would that interfere with the map theme in your opinion?

Anyway, the main problem I see are the creep camps:

1. The one at the central gold mine has lvl 18, which is very strong and makes it hard for human to expand.
2. That creep camp also consists purely of melee creeps, thus can easily be cleared out by air.
3. Similar with the goblin shop camp, if the lvl 2 ensnare creep is gone it's mayham for air.
4. Also, the creep camp at the natural gold mine is too far out in the open, it will attack units that are only passing by.
5. That problem also applies to the gold mine creep camp, although it's not as bad there.

The gold mines in the corners offer relatively little wood because the workers can't pass between those buildings. I would remove those altogether.

buildings.jpg


===

All in all, I'd say that the terrain is the best thing about this map. The textures are spread nicely and evenly, the few lily pads in the shallow rivers are great, there's some creative doodad stuff going on and it's not overloaded (which I tend to do).

I'm not a fan of the central thing with the wind and the rock spires.

The creep camps need to be partly redone and probably be less weird overall.

Hope that helped! (I haven't been commenting much here as of yet)
 
Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,560
Nice, that's a lot of good feedback.
I'll get to work on it as soon as possible.

I do agree on the wind being maybe a bit too much.
The initial concept for the map was to have airblockers in the center.
So air would have to fly around the center and the pass.
Making exp. more safe against air.
To justify air not being able to pass it had to be a hazard or some form of magic.
So lots of wind seemed to fit the theme :p
The airblockers mess up ground pathing though, trying to send scouts through center ended up with them around it.
Air and ground share the same pathing appearently..
So yee.. had to remove it.
But the map played extremely well without it so it didn't matter that much.
I'm gonna test some stuff with the center, try making the terrain and doodads more plain and keep the wind.

Theres no specific reason why i have two taverns instead of center tavern, i just looks nicer. I think its mostly beneficial for the player pushing, since the tavern is behind the pushing player.

Not much to say about your creep feedback, i agree with most of it and i'll change stuff.
Except maybe the natural expansion creeps, since there really isn't a way to make those kind of expansions without having exposed creeps that can aggro easily.
I guess there are ways to mitigate it, like making it one of the first 2-3 camps players will do by reducing overall level to 12-15.
As for the level on it, is level 17 really that bad for HU?
I only tried it in single player and it seemed fine at the time.
I'm no expert on HU and what they do, like if they actually need expansion to work.
I made it more difficult to prevent it from being a too easy expansion for HU, similar to how Echo Isles exp. is hard to stop (i dont like that).
Im gonna try some different ideas and see what works in terms of gameplay.

I love the semicircle </3.
Its supposed to be a very exposed exe.
But you have a point.
Oh well might reshuffle the idea to another map.
 
Level 29
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,635
As enviroment, I like the semicircle but it blocks access to wood for harvesting and skills
in terms of balance.

I think this map fits for a tavern in the middle IMO.
wowowow, the campaign unit stonemaul chief with 3300 hp??? I think that unit was not ment for melee but for Durotar campaing.
I would change it for the level 7 melee orge.
and in a level 30 creep it would be ok in 4 player map but, I think is to much for a 1v1.
I feel that the expandings are very exposed + agro.
If I would own this map, I will try to make a more U shape, more standard, more safe.

upload_2019-4-14_23-32-27.png

upload_2019-4-14_23-33-16.png



never put loot on a banshee, if the banshee use possesion,the loot is never gained. that means no permanent level 4 + loose a unit.

upload_2019-4-14_23-37-18.png


Not orthodox, but since they are ranged it can be I think, maybe change the wolf for another ranged
upload_2019-4-14_23-39-26.png


Overall the only imperative thing is to change the loot of the banshee, since possesion skill bugs the loot designed.

nice map

edit: melee tag is missing, this map wont appear when searching melee maps.
 

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Last edited by a moderator:
Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,560
I didn't think of the possession thingy, but that actually makes the camp more interesting
Banshees have multiple solutions:
1# DPS race her before possession cast time
2# Pull to max range where creeps dont cast spells
3# Pull back units and last hit with hero.
4# Spell immunity

Since the camp can be done with AOW and militia as first camp its good that theres a chance for screw ups. One counterplay would be sacrificing your worker scout to let the banshee possess it.


"wowowow, the campaign unit stonemaul chief with 3300 hp??? I think that unit was not ment for melee but for Durotar campaing."
It still counts as melee, so why not. It has some interesting skills and stats. Good creep to put an artifact on. How that much that camp will get used we'll see after some playtesting. I think having one super hard camp on the map is almost like a requirement, because maps where you run out of camps become really boring. When creep camps are done right it forces your opponent to actively rotate the map instead of holing up inside their base.

"I feel that the expandings are very exposed + agro.
If I would own this map, I will try to make a more U shape, more standard, more safe."
Yeah, but that's kind of boring. There are too many expansion in that particular style. I use this style of expansion in my other map Terrace Fields and from my experience it results in some really fun battles. So i reused it here. Part of the style i use is placing the expansion close to main base, but with the back towards the opponent. So its actually pretty safe to expand on since its easy to defend.
 
Last edited:
Level 29
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,635
I didn't think of the possession thingy, but that actually makes the camp more interesting

no, it doesnt , in all reviews that was stated as a bug, if you find a map used in ladder or competitive play with banshee with loot in the banshee, let me know, I would like to see it, ( every time that was stated as a loot bug, to get the approve of 1 of my maps I had to fix that too, and never did it again, and I was not aiming ladder) You can have a camp of banshee and revenants and put the loot on the revenant.

I think having one super hard camp on the map is almost like a requirement
IMO, I agree that a red creep L20 or L22 is nice to have it, I heard of orange, that sometimes a tie game is defined by who goes to kill the red creep first to get the permanent/charged L4 or L5. It was NE vs HU, and orange won by an inch, the Hu went for rifleman rush.
but L30 not in 1v1 where if you exhaust yourself in a red, the enemy will go and finish you. Probably nobody will risk to go there in competitive play.
A competitive melee player that got 4th place in the first contest, explain me a lot of things, and he told me, in 1v1 red creeps, never above L26 or nobody will risk it.

its good that theres a chance for screw ups.
In 1v1 competitive play, a screw up = to KO, competitive players punishme for hard creeps in a 4v4 player map so imagine in a 1v1,
and I was doing camps of L17 L19 , but I mixed skills in such way that those camps where like red ( probably because of healers and casters)
I did that thinking in coperative creeping, but they didnt like it.

"Yeah, but that's kind of boring. There are too many expansion in that particular style."
probably all of them, competitive melee players want safe scouting (even if that is boring) with their wisp, peons, agro is bad even by low chance.

when I said more "safe" I meant safe of agro, exposed mines tend to have chances of agro. And agro was penaliced in all 3 melee contest by all judges.

I remember I put in a 4 player map a red creep in the middle, and competitive melee players explain me the 1 click rule and agro, I considered it boring and limiting in terms of creativity, but now I feel that a map that doesnt aim ladder is not a good map,
and safe early pvp with one click, orcs tend to go with the blademaster to hijack the enemy, agro is bad for that, if you have to micromanage to avoid agro in a region, it quits somehow a requirement for competitive ladder.


I mean the map can be approved even with the semicircle stuff and banshee loot, but if you aim ladder play
I think those changes are necesary (and yeah competitive melee is to follow boring rules).
 
Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,560
I think you're too absorbed in "rules" for how a map should be.
A melee map is defined by blizzards "melee map" definition, nothing else.
How you choose to use it is up to you.

In in the end it comes down to how fun the map is.
With some playtesting its easy to figure out what works and what doesn't.
And so far i haven't had any concerns about the banshee or the level 30 camp, as both have been crept.
 
Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,560
"Neutral Hostiles with Possession should not drop items.
One player might get the loot, another might not which creates imbalance.
End of story."

Excuse me, but you have to be specific here.
Where is the imbalance when both players have the same camp available?
How does one player get the loot and another player won't when they have equal opportunities?

I assumed you were talking about a bug, so i went and tested it:
Kill Wraith = Item
Wraith possess unit, kill it = No item
Wraith possess unit, enemy player kill it = No Item

So basicly it's working just like you'd expected it to.
It's essentially item denial and to do it requires effort on behalf of the denier.
 
Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,560
There are ways to play around possession:
1# DPS race her before possession cast time which is 3 seconds.
2# Pull to the creep camp to max leash range, creeps never throw spells at this range - this works for the Succubi level 10 creep with Charm too btw.
3# Leave the Wraith for last and before she goes under 25% hp pull her back and last hit with hero.
4# Immunity: Anti-magic shell, Dryad, Spellbreaker, Mechanical Units, Air Units.
5# Units about to be possessed have visual buff. If you react in time you can pull your units away from the 350 cast range.

You can't really conclude with calling it imbalanced. The more accurate term would be a hazard. Since it demands more attention than a regular creep camp.
 
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deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 71
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
19,263
You're not getting the point. The item has to drop from the camp regardless unless it's a no-drop camp or something.
I'm really astonished you've started explaining to me how to defeat such a camp without having a unit possessed and losing the item...

You can make a map where loot drops or not randomly or where all creeps have Possession if you like but that doesn't make it a good melee map. It makes it a frustrating gamble.
Again it's not good melee. There's enough chance with Bash, Critical Strike, so on which is unchangeable. Please don't defend this issue because you think it's cool.
 
Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,560
Well because you're framing it like possession is RNG based, when AI creeps with possession have a predictable behaviour that you can play around.

It's fun to entertain interesting ideas. You make it sound like it's an inherently bad mechanic. When it really has more do with with players prefering a predictable creep route they can autopilot with rally points.
 
Last edited:

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 71
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
19,263
Well because you're framing it like possession is RNG based, when AI creeps with possession have a predictable behaviour that you can play around.
Would you mind having as many as possession-able neutral hostiles you want but those who drop the items to be non-possession capable creeps situated in the same camps with those who can possess?
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 71
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
19,263
Yeah that i can understand, but then the Wraith doesn't pose a threat does it?
Of course it does. It attacks and starts possession under a certain amount of life, like you wrote earlier.
Kill the unit with the drop and leave.
That's nothing new. Blademasters, and not only, do that in most camps.

For instance, a balance issue. Night elves could use ancients vs those units along with a hero which means 0 danger from the Wraith in terms of possession. Sure, you might say, humans have the Water Elemental, orcs Feral Spirit, undead Scarabs but night elves can build an ancient whenever as long as they have the resources for it. You can only choose one hero type for tier 1 and if the Wraith happens to be in a green or orange camp, then, night elves have an advantage.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 71
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
19,263
  1. Some creatures like the Lightning Revenant have low mana. You should set it to full individually for every unit. Mud Golems too. Recheck creep camps.
  2. Not sure it was necessary to have two Taverns and they're pretty close to the bases.
  3. The undead mine guards don't have the longest range. Towers, scouting buildings and main buildings (except for Haunted Gold Mines) can be constructed there without the camp engaging. Also, Wisps can be placed nearby on trees without fuss.
  4. Some camps like the ones with the magicians and wolves have their back exposed to ranged units/heroes/spells and artillery.
Approved.


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Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,560
-Creeps have full mana now, fixed.
-Taverns are intentional.
-Either i have to set creeps to camp or let gold mine creeps aggro scout units. Camp is more desireable in this case.
-It's a small quirk, they're difficult to cheese and even if you can the camp is so easy it's negligible. It's mostly for driveby creepjacks.
 
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