Snowflake River Valley

[ILikeMacNCheeze]

Needs 24p map preview.
BTW, this map is good.

 

[Rennathrim]

Alright. I played it with A.I and gave it a go on a 4v4v4. Here's my personal review.

• The destructible blockers at the ramps to each team's base just screws up the A.I as they do no know how to destroy the walls or gates blocking the entrance, while, on a online lobby this is no issue, to those who want to play single player it is. This also forces you to just rush Tier 2 and build artillery just to get rid of them (for stone walls).
• Creeps are awfully close to bases, I even got attacked once by them due to building too close without realizing it!
• Some of the gold camps, specifically for orcs and humans, you CAN'T build your town/great hall on! (The island ones mostly)
• The terrain is "meh" with just what appeared to be randomly placed doodads and destructibles.
• The ramps look somewhat strange.
• If this map is not finished, as you have said in the description that it is a beta, then perhaps it shouldn't be in this section and be moved to the Map Development forums.
• Please, if you are going to block the entrances, use the same blocker types. Stone Walls will only make the ones who have them rush to T2 just to get rid of them, while Iron Gates are easily destroyable.

This map is not garbage, but needs work.

 

[sharicasmi]

Alright. I played it with A.I and gave it a go on a 4v4v4. Here's my personal review.

• The destructible blockers at the ramps to each team's base just screws up the A.I as they do no know how to destroy the walls or gates blocking the entrance, while, on a online lobby this is no issue, to those who want to play single player it is. This also forces you to just rush Tier 2 and build artillery just to get rid of them (for stone walls).
• Creeps are awfully close to bases, I even got attacked once by them due to building too close without realizing it!
• Some of the gold camps, specifically for orcs and humans, you CAN'T build your town/great hall on! (The island ones mostly)
• The terrain is "meh" with just what appeared to be randomly placed doodads and destructibles.
• Holes in the floor and the ramps look somewhat strange.
• If this map is not finished, as you have said in the description that it is a beta, then perhaps it shouldn't be in this section and be moved to the Map Development forums.
• Please, if you are going to block the entrances, use the same blocker types. Stone Walls will only make the ones who have them rush to T2 just to get rid of them, while Iron Gates are easily destroyable.

This map is not garbage, but needs work.

I have been too busy to personally test this map, and it's good to know what needs adjusting. I'll try a few things to address the first issue like 'changing the stone walls to night elf gates' or something. I don't like the idea of removing them, and this map is mostly just intended for online play.

I'll shuffle some creeps around to deal with the second issue.

• Some of the gold camps, specifically for orcs and humans, you CAN'T build your town/great hall on! (The island ones mostly)

Good to know. I will put that on my to do list

• The terrain is "meh" with just what appeared to be randomly placed doodads and destructibles.

I haven't had a lot of time to work on doodads and terrain details yet. The placement of the teams, resources and neutral buildings is what gives this map potential. I started this map with a 'visual overlay' program called 'ghost it' and I used it to overlay an image editor with a perfect hexagon overtop of the WC3 editor minimap window. That's what gives it its near perfect symmetry. And really, I think the islands look fantastic. The 6 teams starting zones each share a visual theme with the team across the map from them. I suppose some temples or waterfalls could be in order.

• Holes in the floor and the ramps look somewhat strange.

Indeed it will take some polish to get this map looking 'perfect' as it does with any other 24man map. These are minor details that will be hammered out in time.

[edit]I looked over the map and fixed the ramps, but i failed to find the 'holes in the floor that you were speaking of. Maybe some coordinates would help me isolate these 'holes'[/edit]

• If this map is not finished, as you have said in the description that it is a beta, then perhaps it shouldn't be in this section and be moved to the Map Development forums.

I don't want someone else taking credit for my work, so I have it documented here. My mistake.

• Please, if you are going to block the entrances, use the same blocker types. Stone Walls will only make the ones who have them rush to T2 just to get rid of them, while Iron Gates are easily destroyable.

I could see how that would create problems in multiplayer games. I'm surprised i overlooked something so simple! Thanks for the feedback.


[edit] Testers - I want to know how you feel about the creeps in the middle, and the amount of resources in the map right now. The middle is pending a redesign.

 

[Rennathrim]

Alright. Tried out the new version.

While most of my issues were fixed, some are still standing, even and a few major they can be left alone, such as:

Terrain is "meh", not everyone is a good terrainer so I'll let it slightly slide for now.

There are still creeps attacking bases, 3 people of my team except myself were starting to get attacked by random golems and bandits right next to the bases. (Major, fix this!)

The holes in the floor it seems I can't find them anymore, I may have been imagining things again or smthing, I thought I saw holes in the floor but I didn't bother to look again, so its my bad on that.

Also, the middle is okay, I have no problem with there being a lot of hard red creep camps in the middle as usually you'd go there when you have an army ready. Also, the amount of resources. It's okay, but so many gold mines are not exactly needed as games would rather end quickly (I did at least and it was a full game).

This map can be approved once the rather major issues are fixed.

 

[sharicasmi]

Thanks for the feedback. I asked Coldbringer to help work on the terrain and doodad aesthetics for the next update.
I'll deal with the green creeps right away as best I can. If it takes a few iterations to get placement perfect, I may just remove them.

Maybe you were looking at the ship wreckage in the water, they often look like 'holes in terrain.'

My main issue with the configuration of the middle mobs is that they block players off from the other side of the map. It should not be so hard to walk around them, so I'll rotate their configuration 15degrees.


I thought I would share how I created this map, since this tool IMHO SHOULD be used by serious mappers

This is the beginning of a 24man ffa naval battle map for example.
We use a graphics editing program to measure the size of our editors minimap window (which for me was 226x226)
We start with some basic geometry we download off google images, resize/resample it to match your minimap window.
Ghost the graphic editor window, and move it over the minimap window.
Trace until it looks perfect.

 

[mafe]

Ok so I just looked at it from the editor. I'm not gonna repeat what @Jaxximus wrote, but I wholeheartedly agree with all of his point. It just looks like work-progress for now, which however isnt anything I blame you for.
A few suggestions what I think would improve the map:
-More trees in main bases. Anyone except nightelves will soon run out of lumber in longer games, which is what this map will surely produce. Trees are not dense, which is tedious work... But the good news it that I havent found any place where it makes units go major unexpected shortcuts.
-Big map, big armies, big fights. It wont be fun to get a cobied army from 4 players up these tiny chokes some of which are even uphill (next to tavern). For the same reason, FUCK BRIDGES IN PARTICULAR IN TEAMGAMES!
-Game data to "melee latest patch" plz.
-Central area is more or less flat. Adding some unpathable areas will make it more interesting and can also be used to make it easier to navigate the middle area without aggroing creeps.
-Some of the red spots in mid could actually drop stronger items imho (those 9golem 8 water elemental spots that drop a lv 5 +1 item).7
-Creeps that protect gold mines are usually not on camp stance. On the other hand, one camp in the southwest isnt on camp stance when it should be.
-If I look at the summary of itemdrops in the Object manager, then I would conclude that there are probably some asymmetries in item drops.

What I wondered about:
-Gates and cobolds and tavern location mean you cant realistically go for neutral hero first? Is that intended?
-What is the point of these small highground areas near some expansions?

I'll be honest with you, for my liking this map seems favor a defensive players too much. From my limites experience FFAs it is rare that players (or teams) get entirely taken relatively early on in the game, but on this map it seems that this isnt even an option even if someone would try to go all out for a kill. Of course, you might see things differently. However, my mapping philosphy is that a map should still leave most normal strategic options open to the players (Though I guess it is legitimate to argue that there are no "normal strategies" for 4v4v4v4v4v4 yet).

 

[sharicasmi]

Ok so I just looked at it from the editor. I'm not gonna repeat what @Jaxximus wrote, but I wholeheartedly agree with all of his point. It just looks like work-progress for now, which however isnt anything I blame you for.
A few suggestions what I think would improve the map:
-More trees in main bases. Anyone except nightelves will soon run out of lumber in longer games, which is what this map will surely produce. Trees are not dense, which is tedious work... But the good news it that I havent found any place where it makes units go major unexpected shortcuts.
-Big map, big armies, big fights. It wont be fun to get a cobied army from 4 players up these tiny chokes some of which are even uphill (next to tavern). For the same reason, FUCK BRIDGES IN PARTICULAR IN TEAMGAMES!
-Game data to "melee latest patch" plz.
-Central area is more or less flat. Adding some unpathable areas will make it more interesting and can also be used to make it easier to navigate the middle area without aggroing creeps.
-Some of the red spots in mid could actually drop stronger items imho (those 9golem 8 water elemental spots that drop a lv 5 +1 item).7
-Creeps that protect gold mines are usually not on camp stance. On the other hand, one camp in the southwest isnt on camp stance when it should be.
-If I look at the summary of itemdrops in the Object manager, then I would conclude that there are probably some asymmetries in item drops.

What I wondered about:
-Gates and cobolds and tavern location mean you cant realistically go for neutral hero first? Is that intended?
-What is the point of these small highground areas near some expansions?

I'll be honest with you, for my liking this map seems favor a defensive players too much. From my limites experience FFAs it is rare that players (or teams) get entirely taken relatively early on in the game, but on this map it seems that this isnt even an option even if someone would try to go all out for a kill. Of course, you might see things differently. However, my mapping philosphy is that a map should still leave most normal strategic options open to the players (Though I guess it is legitimate to argue that there are no "normal strategies" for 4v4v4v4v4v4 yet).

* -More trees in main bases. Anyone except nightelves will soon run out of lumber in longer games, which is what this map will surely produce.

I was considering replacing some of the closer gold mine expansions into forested areas since there is already more than enough mines. I don't want games to go on for more than 2 hours if possible.

* -Big map, big armies, big fights. It wont be fun to get a cobied army from 4 players up these tiny chokes some of which are even uphill (next to tavern). For the same reason, FUCK BRIDGES IN PARTICULAR IN TEAMGAMES!

These places are intended to be used by the defending player to use the terrain to their advantage. Bridged islands block direct passage to the neighboring teams bases. The point of this is to make neighboring teams slightly less accessible, so that it's easier for big armies to go through the middle first regardless of what team you are attacking. These bridged islands even have plateaus for towering purposes.

* -Game data to "melee latest patch" plz.

Thanks, forgot again.

* -Central area is more or less flat. Adding some unpathable areas will make it more interesting and can also be used to make it easier to navigate the middle area without aggroing creeps.

The center area is definitely going to be redesigned a few times before I come up with something more interesting. I will probably change it to an island with a hexagon of trees with a path cut straight through the middle, with red mobs on the outsides

* -Some of the red spots in mid could actually drop stronger items imho (those 9golem 8 water elemental spots that drop a lv 5 +1 item).7
I will take a look at the loot table after I give it a play through

* -Creeps that protect gold mines are usually not on camp stance. On the other hand, one camp in the southwest isnt on camp stance when it should be.
I think I found that creep camp you were talking about.

* -If I look at the summary of itemdrops in the Object manager, then I would conclude that there are probably some asymmetries in item drops.
When I look at the object managers items, it all seems sufficiently random to me. There may be a few camps not dropping enough loot. Creeps that guard mines drop only one item, but creep camps that aren't guarding anything should drop 2. Other than that, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

 

[mafe]

When I look at the object managers items, it all seems sufficiently random to me. There may be a few camps not dropping enough loot. Creeps that guard mines drop only one item, but creep camps that aren't guarding anything should drop 2. Other than that, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Yes I should have explained it in more detail: Basically most of you map has a 60° rotational symmetry, which means that every creep camp (and therefore every item drop) should exist in multiples of 6. Except for the central area, where some creep spots appear less than 6 times, but if I saw it correctly, even then every creep spot appears in even number except for the central creep spot at the market place. So almost all item class/item level combination should appear in even numbers, except for those that drop at the central creep spot.

But when I check the Object manager, there are several more items that appear in odd numbers, which does not seem to fit with the symmetry; this is despite almost every creep appearing in even numbers. However, the simple reason can also be that I have a failure of logic here, or that there are some further minor asymmetries which I missed.

 

[sharicasmi]

I see - it's possible that a creep mob or pack got truncated during some terrain changes and I forgot to replace it. It should also be noted that there are 3 configurations of mob setups, and each base shares a theme with the base farthest from it.

 

[Rennathrim]

It seems the issue of creeps attacking bases is gone, but why 2 maps? Also, the drop of the creep camp at middle is rather...bad. Just a mask of death and a potion of restoration...? I mean...come on, that Forgotten One was really hard to kill due to how many tentacles he would just constantly spawn.

 

[sharicasmi]

It seems the issue of creeps attacking bases is gone, but why 2 maps? Also, the drop of the creep camp at middle is rather...bad. Just a mask of death and a potion of restoration...? I mean...come on, that Forgotten One was really hard to kill due to how many tentacles he would just constantly spawn.

The boss in the middle drops random loot. One level 8 piece one level 6 piece. It might be something useful it might be something pointless. I will take a look at the loot table and make sure it drops some juicy stuff for the level 8 drop

[edit]I updated the loot for the boss in the middle. The level 11 golem now with it now drops level 8 stuff with a 10% chance to drop an extra, and the boss now drops even better stuff with a 16% chance to drop an extra item. They are also with a level 6 which drops a random high level powerup (usually a tome of power or knowledge)[/edit]

 

[deepstrasz]

To avoid forces you could use the triggers in this map to avoid enemy players starting nearby: Skeletal Coast v1.3
Some creatures face the mine instead of standing with their backs to it (seen in the north-west). Because of this, they might lose 1 second to turn to the attacker.
Mercenary Camps are unguarded.
The map is pretty cluttered for so many players plus the potential danger of your building process being hindered by neutral units.
If you could place double bridges for ease of passing and place unbuildable tiles near the bridge edges to avoid Farm/Tower blocks.
Goblin Merchant unguarded.
Neutral units are mostly the same. Some diversity wouldn't hurt.
What's that in the middle? I mean, keep it melee (items included).
Terrain is pretty much flat and in some places it's either one or two tiles only.

Awaiting Update.

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If you're not satisfied with the review and wish another opinion, contact the other reviewers or use the staff contact:
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[sharicasmi]

1. To avoid forces you could use the triggers in this map to avoid enemy players starting nearby
* WHY would I do this when lobby teams would work so much better?

2. Some creatures face the mine instead of standing with their backs to it (seen in the north-west). Because of this, they might lose 1 second to turn to the attacker.
* Found and fixed

3. Mercenary Camps are unguarded.
* For mostly the same reason that taverns are. They are not ACTUALLY unguarded if you look closely. There IS a creep camp between them and the tavern.

4. The map is pretty cluttered for so many players plus the potential danger of your building process being hindered by neutral units.
* Any mobs which were causing problems before have been given their own forest path or wall which seperates them from player bases. Upon map initialization, empty player slots are replaced with a red level creep camp that should not be approached. Make sure to load up the game with full 4 people per team.

5. If you could place double bridges for ease of passing and place unbuildable tiles near the bridge edges to avoid Farm/Tower blocks.
* These 'bridged' islands are made to constrict army flow between directly neighboring bases. That being said, these islands also have plateaus for the purpose adding tower fortifications to their main base entrance. Double bridges would defeat the purpose. In the maps current design, players are encouraged to go through the middle/main entrances or risk having their army split up from crossing these bridges.

6. Goblin Merchant unguarded.
* Found and fixed

7. Neutral units are mostly the same. Some diversity wouldn't hurt.
* I'm really more concerned with its balance for online play atm.

8. What's that in the middle? I mean, keep it melee (items included).
* [SHARCASM] Because heaven forbid someone actually puts something COOL in a team FFA[/SHARCASM].

9. Terrain is pretty much flat and in some places it's either one or two tiles only.
* You're right. I'm really not good at tiles/doodads. I look at the WHOLE PICTURE and summarize it with reasonably decent accuracy. The 2 places (north/south) that actually DO use 6 tiles here are actually made by (the tiles/doodad guy) JSRGN, who originally told me this idea for the map and said 'make it'.


Your input is getting INCREASINGLY less helpful, or maybe you're missing the point. You left a lot of people feeling uncertain about my first project 24 Eastern Kingdoms FFA which was actually well liked by ladder players. Do me a favor and STAY AWAY from my projects.
I understand we can't have people going around publishing substandard maps, (and don't get me wrong, this is a superb map) but you personally approved this map with the blight bug unfixed (Island Expedition) while my first project is still pending approval.

JSRG's boss in the middle will be STAYING and I will be marking this as modified melee for now. Future updates will be mostly doodad updates, loot updates, and eventually the possibility of removing the bridged islands. We can't expand the hexagon to make it wider, but we can expand the outsides of the hexagon to possibly allow for more lumber camp areas.

 

[deepstrasz]

WHY would I do this when lobby teams would work so much better?

Because that way, you'll know where one of four players in one of those groups will start. Anyways, it was a suggestion. I did not say do it, just to be clear.

For mostly the same reason that taverns are. They are not ACTUALLY unguarded if you look closely. There IS a creep camp between them and the tavern.

Let's be fair. Those creatures are not actually guarding the camps but the gates.

Because heaven forbid someone actually puts something COOL in a team FFA

Well, placing campaign units isn't actually cool if you're not used to them and have a kind of "what the..." moment. Anyways, that's beside the point I was making which takes this map out of melee and puts it in a poor altered melee state as we don't have the tweaked melee tag yet. But, if you are that insistent on keeping the Flesh Golem and Forgotten One, at least upload two versions of the map here, one with no other changes than usual melee and this one you like.

Do me a favor and STAY AWAY from my projects.

In case you haven't read the last part of the review, do it again.

I understand we can't have people going around publishing substandard maps, (and don't get me wrong, this is a superb map) but you personally approved this map with the blight bug unfixed (Island Expedition) while my first project is still pending approval.

The game's fault is not the map's fault. I will not force map authors circumvent the game's bugs so I can approve their maps.
About your map, you know very well what the issue is, it's not pure MELEE.

 

[sharicasmi]

1. Because that way, you'll know where one of four players in one of those groups will start. Anyways, it was a suggestion. I did not say do it, just to be clear.
* Lobby teams are working just fine in the most recent file.

2. Let's be fair. Those creatures are not actually guarding the camps but the gates.
* You fail to see the point in putting a merc camp behind the walls of the bases - Night Elf have no decent melee. This is just to patch an obvious lack of melee in tier1. Many team maps do this.

3. The game's fault is not the map's fault. I will not force map authors circumvent the game's bugs so I can approve their maps.
About your map, you know very well what the issue is, it's not pure MELEE.
* The only things about Eastern Kingdoms which are NOT ladder rules, is the fact that several neutral buildings are hidden, and that the goblin merchants sell 'potion of omniescence' for 750g which reveals the entire map for 5 seconds. Sufficient amounts of lumber can not reasonably fit on to such a small 24 FFA so trees had to be 'strengthened.'
There are NO naga units NO underwater mines NO custom/campaign units whatsoever. It seems to me, you're lobbying against/holding back my first project because it makes you feel powerful.

 

[Rennathrim]

Since apparently you don't like an official reviewer. Here comes mine regarding the changes.

- Taverns and Mercenary Camps are meant to be strategically placed shops for people to buy heroes/custom units, etc. The creeps you say are guarding them, are guarding the gates. Not the camps. One could easily bum-rush the Tavern for a heroes and they can just insta-revive their hero from inside their base, which beats the purpose of a tavern. Night Elves have no decent melee because thats their negative, they're a ranged race that's meant for defense, not fighting on the front lines. Also, which melee maps do this? Cause no blizzard maps have placed mercenary camps unguarded and specially so close.

Also, if you are going to have gnolls "guard" gates, I suggest you put them these gloves behind the gates, not outside where people can easily just cheese it and attack them without getting a single hit back with ranged units.

- Creeps need some adjusting, from the top portion of the map I attacked a mine creep camp and I got attacked by 3 other creep camps cause they were in aggro range. However, it was STILL easy with a mountain king, having only 7 units and having only 2 lost, while it didn't annoy me much, it could annoy any other person and can affect a race with not so very good melee.

In addition to the behavior above: Official Reviewers are supposed to make the map qualify for approval, just because the general people who played your certain map does not mean the moderator should like it as well.

That is all.

 

[sharicasmi]

Since apparently you don't like an official reviewer. Here comes mine regarding the changes.

- Taverns and Mercenary Camps are meant to be strategically placed shops for people to buy heroes/custom units, etc. The creeps you say are guarding them, are guarding the gates. Not the camps. One could easily bum-rush the Tavern for a heroes and they can just insta-revive their hero from inside their base, which beats the purpose of a tavern. Night Elves have no decent melee because thats their negative, they're a ranged race that's meant for defense, not fighting on the front lines. Also, which melee maps do this? Cause no blizzard maps have placed mercenary camps unguarded and specially so close.

Also, if you are going to have gnolls "guard" gates, I suggest you put them these gloves behind the gates, not outside where people can easily just cheese it and attack them without getting a single hit back with ranged units.

- Creeps need some adjusting, from the top portion of the map I attacked a mine creep camp and I got attacked by 3 other creep camps cause they were in aggro range. However, it was STILL easy with a mountain king, having only 7 units and having only 2 lost, while it didn't annoy me much, it could annoy any other person and can affect a race with not so very good melee.

In addition to the behavior above: Official Reviewers are supposed to make the map qualify for approval, just because the general people who played your certain map does not mean the moderator should like it as well.

That is all.

Taverns absolutely HAVE to be accessible in base so that using a neutral hero as a primary can still be an option. This is always a problem with gated bases.

The closes example I would have to that being used in a blizzard map is RAGING STREAM. This map is not even gated, and they CLEARLY have unguarded taverns for the purpose of choosing a neutral hero as a main.

As for the creeps, yes they definitely need some adjusting. I picked team 5 (bottom right) in my last test session with the cpu, creeps were indeed aggroing through the walls. There is some trial and error when placing creeps in this small amount of space.

 

[deepstrasz]

(previous review: Snowflake River Valley)

Please add a normal melee version along the tweaked one. Thank you.

Awaiting Update.

 

[Daffa]

Too long as Awaiting Update. Substandard until the author updates and requested another review.