Mod Suggestion

[Captain Griffen]

And you do realize these maps are created using blizzards programs, material, and art, therefore these maps are not technically yours. When we say that you should not have the right to remove material, we are talking about the idiots that try to upload again for more credit. those who plan to delete it for absent purpose have every right, as long as it abides by site rules. The site has every right to dictate how it will be uploaded, as you choose to use that site to host it on. If you dislike the rules, well then as chat says GTFO.
Now stop trying to best me when you have long ago failed.

Your understanding of copyright law is highly flawed. The maps are technically jointly owned, part by me, part by Blizzard. They are not at all owned by THW. Changing the rules won't at all change the (implicit) license agreement that THW is allowed to distribute under, which I can cancel at any time I feel like.

f the delete button will be removed users can only remove their resource by requesting a mod to do it. There will be no such things as refusing not to remove it.

Then it's pointless to add it, it'll only add a greater burden to moderators.

 

[Airandius]

Then it's pointless to add it, it'll only add a greater burden to moderators.

This is incorrect, instaid of people removing their maps on their own because they want a better rating or a new moderation they will have to request it with a valid reason.
This way it's easier for moderators becuase if they have ni svalid reason it can be ignored instaid of them having to force the people not to double upload their map.
This has been said numerous times, sorry to say but all you are talking about is copyright laws. (And to be honest your arguments are weak and always the same.)

Give us some good reasons why people should be able to delete their resources, the point of uploading them is sharing them, as long it's not used for profit and proper credits are given their are no problems conserning copyright laws.
Hiveworkshop will not prohibit the deletion of resources, you just need a valid reason to do so, with approvel of the mods.
Hiveworkshop will not own the resources uploaded, they give proper credit to the makers.

Like stated before, please give us a better argument why we should keep the deletion button.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Copyright law trumps THW rules. Always. Non-commercial usage does not mean you are not covered by copyright laws.

Even if you don't care about that, THW would be treated as a rogue modding site, the same as anything else distributing stuff against the owner's consent. The result would be pretty much every decent modder leaving THW.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

copyright laws and THW laws are two completely different thing. Your choosing to upload on this site, you will follow their rules. It does not matter that you wrote the software, or you are part owner of software, you are given premission to host it at this site, copyright has nothing to do with site rules.
This is an off topic discussion that will carry on forever, lets just call it even?
Back on topic, we came to the conclusion that there need not be a delete button. I agree that this is the case. But what are going to do about it, Airandius?

 

[Captain Griffen]

No one is above the law. And guess what? The rules that would apply would be those at the time I submitted my stuff.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

Drop it Griffen, it is off topic, you have your opinion, I have mine.

 

[brad.dude03]

No, this is not really the realm of opinion. Laws are not created with the intention of being interpreted by opinion.

 

[~Void~]

The internet is almost lawless because it spans over so many countries that it can get very confusing. Not to mention how hard it is to track down people on the internet for so many little issues that don't really matter. I mean, it can be done, but there are so many more important problems to put effort into, and nobody really wants to track down copyright infringements and illegal software over the internet.

 

[Hakeem]

I did not agree to a perpetual right for THW to host it, and nor would I.

Why not? Just curios.

No one is above the law.

*suppresses anarchy beliefs*


2:

Refusing to permit people to remove their own work would be a serious violation of copyright law, particularly since THW has no ToS which give them that.

2:

The rules that would apply would be those at the time I submitted my stuff.

Together:
Then we could provide the delete feature for only old maps that were submitted under the old ToS. Or we could make it even simpler and inform users of the updates, and tell them they must agree to the new ToS if they wish their map to be accessible from here.

nobody really wants to track down copyright infringements and illegal software over the internet.

...unless there is a large sum of money involved.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

...unless there is a large sum of money involved.

I'm pretty sure there Is not in this case.

 

[MasterHaosis]

No one is above the law.

Well Griffen you are right for some things but for many you aren't. Actually it is true no one is above law. But man noone gives shit for my, your or anyone's map. So what he will restrict you deleting your own maps, and in name of law you will report him, and what will happen? They will close site, but actually they can't cause it's private server, so what will happen then; cops will come in Denmark and arrest Ralle right? No even Hive break rules, I doubt someone will give shit for maps. Because those things are resources man, go back and speak ,,noone is above law'' in real life. What would write in report: ,,Hey they break law they restrict us form deleting our own resources''. And when they read that word ,,resources'' they will ignore such messages. Because noone gives shit for that. You really think someone is gonna close site for this? So it means Hive has right to restrict people of deleting maps and resources, if anyone don't agree well you always can move at site where you can delete your own resources and where ,,no one is above law''.
Ralle man, quickly run, watch yourself man, cops will arrest you in the middle of class if you restrict people deleting their resources! ahahahahah sweet dreams! Just keep making fun here, people here have serious job how to manage this site in chaos and someone here connects laws and Maps that's funny haha.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The whole map moderation system is flawed. We get like 15-30 maps a day which if someone moderated 3 a day we would be lucky. It would mean we would need 5-10 map moderators to moderate all the maps if they moderate 3 a day which is not easy for them often. Thus we would need 10-20 inorder to even near meet the number of maps per day as not all are active every day. This is an insane number.

Thus an idea I thought of was what if moderation was left to the people. Not physically, but they are encouraged to report posts with possiable rep awards if they find something that violates a rule in a map submission. Also a review system would let members submit reviews of a map to a map if they want to (again which could be reported if they violate rules by other users). This would mean that the ammount of moderating that map moderators need to do would be reduced to quick glances over the map section and dealing with all the reported content.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Well Griffen you are right for some things but for many you aren't. Actually it is true no one is above law. But man noone gives shit for my, your or anyone's map. So what he will restrict you deleting your own maps, and in name of law you will report him, and what will happen? They will close site, but actually they can't cause it's private server, so what will happen then; cops will come in Denmark and arrest Ralle right? No even Hive break rules, I doubt someone will give shit for maps. Because those things are resources man, go back and speak ,,noone is above law'' in real life. What would write in report: ,,Hey they break law they restrict us form deleting our own resources''. And when they read that word ,,resources'' they will ignore such messages. Because noone gives shit for that. You really think someone is gonna close site for this? So it means Hive has right to restrict people of deleting maps and resources, if anyone don't agree well you always can move at site where you can delete your own resources and where ,,no one is above law''.
Ralle man, quickly run, watch yourself man, cops will arrest you in the middle of class if you restrict people deleting their resources! ahahahahah sweet dreams! Just keep making fun here, people here have serious job how to manage this site in chaos and someone here connects laws and Maps that's funny haha.

Ha, ISPs would prefer to cover their own asses than cover Ralle's ass. And even if they were to be jackasses about their legal responsibilities, it wouldn't matter that much since modding sites that do shit like that become pariahs, and very rapidly die.

 

[Septimus]

Ha, ISPs would prefer to cover their own asses than cover Ralle's ass. And even if they were to be jackasses about their legal responsibilities, it wouldn't matter that much since modding sites that do shit like that become pariahs, and very rapidly die.

Naturally, I do not think a website could die rapidly just because of the implementation of such a system. But, there is a small possibility of getting more support from people as this could ensure the site run smoothly and make it much convenient when a person try to search resources.

 

[Airandius]

Could we please drop the whole copyright law thing? It hardly has anything to do with this topic. We were looking for solutions to reduce the stacking of resources and such.
__________________________________________________________________________
I'll make a small list of what actions we could undertake for the moment untill there are more mods.

- This happend once before if I recall correctly: removing all pending resources unless the owner re-uploads it so that it wont be deleted. This will delete a decent amount of maps that were just uploaded and never looked back at in my opinion.

- Users may only upload maps (and other resources) that are properly working and have been tested, if they need it to be tested they can go to the forum tread, map recruitment (for maps that is) and request people to test it. This will reduce the amount of maps aswell since a high amount of alpha's, beta's and noob maps wont be uploaded.

- Remove the download button for users, (idc about the whole copyright thing because
people can still request for their map to be removed if they have a valid reason.
Valid reasons will not include: I want to reupload the map for better scores.
(This is just one of the many stupid reasons, people.. why remove a resource? If it's bad, though luck and don't upload bad maps, you can always update it. If it's good... well, why should somebody want to remove their good maps unless their are completely retarded?)

- More moderators (yeh you propably saw that once comming), go and look for possible candidates, there are bound to be at least 2 or 3. They are just hiding in the shadows or are to busy not being noticed. =P
__________________________________________________________________________

All moderators and important people that supported the hive should gather somewhere (a tread idc) and work this out before the hive starts to die.

Also, Ralle needs to take these points into consideration because he is by far the leading factor as far as I know. If he does not want to listen the moderators should make him aware of the problems a bit more.

~ Airandius

 

[MasterHaosis]

Ha, ISPs would prefer to cover their own asses than cover Ralle's ass. And even if they were to be jackasses about their legal responsibilities, it wouldn't matter that much since modding sites that do shit like that become pariahs, and very rapidly die.

Hey man I don't understand, can ISP close Hive or any modding site even it is private server like Ralle's in this case? And why anyone should close Hive for restricting people to delete their own resources, because Hive didn't invented this, VBulletin did that, they made option to restrict people of deleting their resources, so that's why it is so complicated situation. Vbulletin will still protect Hive because Ralle pays for this site still, only server is in his room. That's why I think there is no way to punish Hive for that only. Site must gonna really in bad way to deal with it, not just problem with resources.

 

[XX_Noob]

I guess the best way to do this would like having helpers and so...

Also griffen, wtf is your problem? it's a game people play it because they like it and it's fun, not to go and whine about "THATS COPYRIGHT!". Remember that you was the one to upload it in the first place.

And stop being so arrogant and think Hive is just a little tool in your "almighty plan to control WC3"

Now, back to topic, I like the idea of the mini-mods/judges whatever you now like to call em, but having several guys helping would make it better for the mod.

Oh, and yes it takes time to approve a map, the mods has to play it, and to get a real game expirence you need to play a fullhouse (or the max number of players needed for the map), and the mods should not be arses towards some types of maps. If the mod simply dont like that type of map he should either give it a chance or just let another moderator do it (I think this is not really acceptable for a map moderator.. but not my call).

~XX_Noob

 

[MasterHaosis]

Man that was awesome high quality post! Also nice ideas about maps

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Oh, and yes it takes time to approve a map, the mods has to play it, and to get a real game expirence you need to play a fullhouse (or the max number of players needed for the map), and the mods should not be arses towards some types of maps. If the mod simply dont like that type of map he should either give it a chance or just let another moderator do it (I think this is not really acceptable for a map moderator.. but not my call).

That is the whole reason there are (supposed) to be multiple map moderators with their own tastes. If a certain mod simply does not enjoy a genre, how can they possibly know whether or not the map is fun on an objective level? That's right, they can't, so one (the hive in this case) introduces multiple map moderators with different tastes to compensate. Works nicely as it is, the problem arises when there aren't enough map moderators or they all have the same tastes.

Also griffen, wtf is your problem? it's a game people play it because they like it and it's fun, not to go and whine about "THATS COPYRIGHT!". Remember that you was the one to upload it in the first place.

And stop being so arrogant and think Hive is just a little tool in your "almighty plan to control WC3"

Please keep your belligerence and ignorance to yourself. If you have to resort to personal attacks against a user because you cannot legitimately refute the arguments he's making, then you have already lost the debate.

Griffen is making purely objective points based on international law on the topic of copyrights. That the points he's making are moot because you'd never remove a user's ability to request his maps be removed doesn't matter, his points are still valid. (Just unproductive to the intended direction of the topic)

 

[XX_Noob]

Aight, lets keep this flaming thing to private messages? I prefer not to start a flame war here.
Well you and griffen does come from the same site.. its obviously you support him. Yes people can maybe not like one genre, that just makes them need to stay away from the map, but going berserk saying it completely sucks and has not skills, is flawed when he just done like the genre isn't right.

~XX_Noob

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Aight, lets keep this flaming thing to private messages? I prefer not to start a flame war here.

Excuse me, but what are you talking about? I'm genuinely confused why you said that.

Well you and griffen does come from the same site.. its obviously you support him.

What the hell does coming from the same site have anything to do with anything? Jesus Christ, guilty by association much?

Yes people can maybe not like one genre, that just makes them need to stay away from the map, but going berserk saying it completely sucks and has not skills, is flawed when he just done like the genre isn't right.

If a map moderator "goes berserk saying it completely sucks" then he by no means deserves the position he holds. Telling a user that his map is bad is not the same as saying it sucks, mind you. There's a distinct connotative difference therein that makes all of the difference. I have never seen Griffen belligerently attack a map in all of my time working with him, and if you see a moderator here doing such a thing I suggest you report them as soon as possible.

 

[Airandius]

Can we please stick to the topic? If you guys keep saying to stop flaming it's still offtopic.

__________________________________________________________________________

Any progress on the suggestions made? (Are they good or bad, if good will they be implented?)
It's time to act fast, so many mods are leaving..

 

[ragingspeedhorn]

The same site point is most certainly invalid. Both me and Rising_Dusk come from the same site aswell and we disagree on most topics.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

Can we please stick to the topic? If you guys keep saying to stop flaming it's still offtopic.

I strongly agree. Enough with the flaming and copyright right shit.
I understand that the whole system is flawed, but we have thought of numerous ways to fix it, or at least help it get better.
The quest: Is Rally aware that it is flawed?

 

[ragingspeedhorn]

You were the one that was provoking hostile behavior in the first place, Sergeant Ray.

Also Ralle is probably well aware that the system is flawed, but the site doesn't solely evolve around its map archive, he probably does have other things to take care of aswell. Also this matter has been discussed a million times over, if he were to come in and make a statement it would most likely be the same as he made the last time. Ralle has proven in the past that he pays attention to a lot more stuff than what he first appears to do, he sometimes just doesn't get involved in these discussions until the very end.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

I started nothing, I merely tried to end it, in a hostile way. Crap.
If Ralle was aware, he would do something about it knowing it is such a problem. Wouldn't he?

 

[XX_Noob]

Can we please stick to the topic? If you guys keep saying to stop flaming it's still offtopic.

__________________________________________________________________________

Any progress on the suggestions made? (Are they good or bad, if good will they be implented?)
It's time to act fast, so many mods are leaving..

exactly what i was trying to do.. get it back on topic.

 

[~Void~]

What's the topic again...? -.-'

 

[Sergeant Ray]

What's the topic again...? -.-'

*Sighs*

 

[Mecheon]

So, you want to have someone weigh in?

I think the decision to remove the delete button is stupid, and if it is added I will leave because I completely oppose such an act. You're damning the many based on the actions of a few, and giving the moderators a metric ton of more work to do

You're not helping any situation at all by doing that

What should instead be done is that all deleted maps be shown on a user's profile, along with present ones, thus allowing a moderator to see if they're there, and then the moderator can quite simply just reject the newly submitted map with no problems at all

Hell, I'm gonna go enforce this rule right now. If people won't listen to the rules, then I don't have to give a stuff about their maps

 

[Captain Griffen]

*throws Mecheon a cookie for a well thought out suggestion that doesn't screw over the majority*

 

[Airandius]

So, you want to have someone weigh in?

I think the decision to remove the delete button is stupid, and if it is added I will leave because I completely oppose such an act. You're damning the many based on the actions of a few, and giving the moderators a metric ton of more work to do

You're not helping any situation at all by doing that

What should instead be done is that all deleted maps be shown on a user's profile, along with present ones, thus allowing a moderator to see if they're there, and then the moderator can quite simply just reject the newly submitted map with no problems at all

Hell, I'm gonna go enforce this rule right now. If people won't listen to the rules, then I don't have to give a stuff about their maps

Oke, everybody has their own opinion about it, and I think your idea is great but there are always ways to bypass it.
- They delete their map.
- They change map name.
- They change tileset.
- They reupload.

There is just no way moderaters can remeber all of that for each map they moderate. What to do about this?
I still think the whole 'deleting maps' is an useless thing, there are no valid reasons for a map to be deleted anyway!

 

[Ralle]

ANYWAY
Currently when you delete your own resource you are not able to re-upload the exact same file again.
So simply re-uploading is not at all possible unless an edit has been made.

The delete button can still be a problem though. I suggest a faster way for moderators to see if the user has already a resource with similar name.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Heres an idea, what about a delete system simlar to the report post system. Basically the delete button auto generates a delete request thread (they have to also supply a reason why they are deleting). Moderators then check the thread and if the reason is valid, the moderators delete the map.

If people have to supply a reason, I am pretty sure they will not delete their map just to reupload it since that will obviously not be a valid reason.

 

[The Last Istari]

They could just give a fake reason. "I no longer wish to have this map on here, as author, I ask that it be taken down." wait a bit, then reupload it.

Of course, it could work if you were to implement a "Haha! It's our's now sucker!" system to where once they upload they have no say over the final decision.

 

[Septimus]

Well, if they do. Then it is infraction hour for violate rules + lie to mod/admin.

 

[Captain Griffen]

...of course enforcement of that would be so much easier and not require remembering anything if you enacted Mecheon's suggestion.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

Heres an idea, what about a delete system simlar to the report post system. Basically the delete button auto generates a delete request thread (they have to also supply a reason why they are deleting). Moderators then check the thread and if the reason is valid, the moderators delete the map.

If people have to supply a reason, I am pretty sure they will not delete their map just to reupload it since that will obviously not be a valid reason.

I agree, strongly. This would help keep track of everything going on. *Buys Dr. Super Good a beer* But they can always lie, you moderators don't always catch everything.

 

[Airandius]

If they lie and mods find out (and ofcourse they will) you can always ban them for a few days or something! =D

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I think the decision to remove the delete button is stupid, and if it is added I will leave because I completely oppose such an act.

Awesome, now the rest of the staff is threatening the administration with leaving if their demands aren't met. This stuff just keeps getting better and better by the day.

Seriously, if you remove the requirement for maps to be approved and kill the delete button, it's still going to be less work on the whole for the map moderators. Shit, without the approval process, most people wouldn't delete their own maps anyways. (Unless for reasons Griffen pointed out earlier during the copyright schpeal)

 

[~Void~]

Mecheon is an admin, no? I talked to him on admin contact so I imagine that means he is.

Anyways, he is one of the few that might actually kill the hive if they left....

 

[Vegavak]

If you don't do this, I will leave. Whatever.

If it's possible to track uploaded maps and track deleted maps, I'd say that's a great start.

 

[PurplePoot]

If you don't do this, I will leave. Whatever.

Indeed, Bismarck strategies are a nuisance.

 

[Kwah]

Indeed, Bismarck strategies are a nuisance.

Tru dat.

Well, Sc2 is coming out soon, so that should be a boost.

 

[Deathcom3s]

I love it when people say the hive is dying.

Goddammit people, you're all just trying to get a position as a staff member, by posting threads on topics already discussed. Those who say the hive is dying, clearly have never seen a community die. THW averages more than 1000 posts a DAY! A dying forum might get maybe 100 in a 2-3 month span. So stop it with this, "Oh, if another mod leaver, THW will die". good Mods leaving will only effect THW in a negative way, but not kill it.
[/rant]

 

[AirHead]

honestly, i wish i could be a map moderator because it would get me back into actually playing WC3 instead of just modding it and never actually doing any playing, but i would probably not be up (or down) to the right standards of the hive and accept (or decline) almost every map. i know that the following posts will be people saying '0MG Y0U JUS7 W4N7 A S74FF M3MB3R PAR7!1111!!11!!!!!!!!!!' but i can live with it.[/offtopic] i think that resources with a 4.5-5 rating should be looked at by mods first and that would be the closest thing to what you said originaly that the hive would likely do.

 

[Squiggy]

So could I be an art moderator but talking about how competent you are won't get you further

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Who wants to be mod anymore, its obviously hard and sucks to be them at this time.

 

[Volvox]

I has an idea! Let's all be moderators! That way every resource would get approved right away!

 

[HappyTauren]

dudes. it sucks to be a moderator. seriously. serious business.