Item Discussion Thread

Finally some discussion. Let's make this thread active once again, bring it on Kingz!
1st:
Items are meant to have a low,mid and high tier qualities. That separates the items in strength and that is something you see in every game RPG game for example.
Just because other AoS and other RPG's use it that is not an excuse for use to follow them. Personally, every time I play an RPG or an AoS I always feel LOST because I never know which items to buy and specially WHEN to buy them. Upgrading items would make things so much easier because you would still be able to have all your high and middle tier items, but built using and upgrading basic tier items. The concept would be a lot wider and easier. There would be no need to know the names of all items nor the names of all recipes and combinations. The only thing the player would need to know would be ... nothing. Just decide what to add to your item and it's done.

What if a hero gets "fat" early? I mean normally you would have to save a lot of money to buy a high tier item but with the upgrade possibility you can upgrade your low tier item to medium-high without the possibility of you losing money due to a death.
I don't see how. I mean, you still have to go to the base and do all the shopping there right?
This problem is active in all other games. If I draw first blood in HoN (an AoS) I may not buy the item immediately(because I have to go to base and that is boring) but I am already fat, and when I get my high tier item it will be mayhem and chaos because I just got it on the sudden and no one had the time to stop me.
Besides, such balancing values can de add to the item system i suggest.
Not really. I never had any trouble determining which item to buy/sell at a certain level. You just need common sense and have to actually think which item benefits you and your team the most =\
That's because you never played pro tier. In HoN it is a usual problem to pick the items and when to sell them. Because every little detail makes a huge difference in the metagame, you have to pick wisely, and more important of all, to sell wisely.
Low=>Mid=>High
I don't see why not. I mean, sure a low tier item should NOT be upgraded to a +1000 damage AOE freeze item (it needs limits) but a +1STR item should be allowed to be upgraded to +6STR(buy it 6x + taxes income) and to +10STR(buy it 10x + taxes income). Then the user could pick an aura for the item, like a frost effect or a vamp aura or something. Dunno yet.

See what I mean?
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
I am also against such an idea why?

First, people who play it know (mostly) which items are they gona be getting at the very start of the game and save money for it.

Second, recipes are there to fix that. You will buy a low tier sword with +5 dmg, but when it gets obsolete you will use it to create a more powerful item which will also give similar stats (it wont give you magic resistance, but dmg or attack speed).

When I played DotA (only with my friends), I only buy consumables, and focus on getting items that will in a recipe give me what I want. So if I'm going for a Butterfly I will buy items that I need for it (first ones that are most useful).

Plus if we use your system, you can quickly get full inventory with dmg increasing item, making you really strong, and then just saving money for best item in game. And since your so strong you don't need t worry about death.

Plus, you guys want to make system for everything... better go make a new game while your at it.

Plus most AoS I've played are relatively simple, that's why they are fun to play...
 
Level 45
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
8,154
I say lets take Flame_Phoenix's idea further. I agree with upgrading low-tier items, but not to the extent of making them high-tier, but rather include 'sockets' or 'gems' or whatever that grant your items special effects, for example frost attack, critical strike, devotion aura, life-leech etcetera. We could include high-tier units in those 'sockets', so for example a socket that increases attack by 20 and grants an on-use Storm Bolt or something would be an item that requires various combinations and, of course, a recipe.
In addition, more costly "basic" items would grant higher bonuses and, most importantly, would have more 'socket slots'.
 
Level 24
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
2,572
Recipes work perfectly, always have always will, if you are so sure your idea is good Flame_Phoenix i would like a small test map from you where i can see it ingame.

Or some example item ideas which could show the idea a little better.


@Debode

That is going too far imo. This should not relate to Diablo 2 since it is an AoS not an RPG.

Also let's see:
You can socket items in multiple combinations, that is a good thing.
You can socket items in multiple combinations, that is a bad thing.

Let me explain, sure some combinations of "sockets" would be good, but some would be imbalanced! Also i wouldn't like to play with a noob who stacked the wrong "gems" in the sockets.
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
Who mentioned Tides of Blood. It has sockets. Who plays that map? no one.
DotA has recipes. Who plays Dota? A lot of people.

Plus if you decide to change everything, all items submitted will go to hell. I don't want that. And recipes are simpler the sockets.
Why do people (Linaze) always jump in and try to destroy everything we got so far by tying to get people to change idea completely, work all over again :p
 
Level 24
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
2,572
Recipes tend to get over-complicated and requires intense studying since players need to learn them all, pretty much.

You know for normal people with normal logic i find it difficult to see how a person can't READ which are the needed items to form an item from a recipe...

The only thing simpler from recipes are raw items...

Sockets are far from simple.

Also i laughed when i heard players need to study intensively to learn a recipe.
I know all the recipes from Dota and i am not a scientist nor did i study them...
 
First, people who play it know (mostly) which items are they gona be getting at the very start of the game and save money for it.
Actually no, I don't know. When I moved from Dota to AoM I was lost. When I experimented Tides of Blood or Legends of Sand I was lost. And I always feel lost when the concept is new and original. When I moved from Dota to HoN I was not lost because, let's face it, HoN is a cheap copy from Dota, just like LoL and the others. People are used to play Dota, if they don't feel lost at first when playing HB, then it's because you did an horrible job and made a cheap copy of Dota. I am trying to avoid such a thing here.
Second, recipes are there to fix that
Exactly my point. It looks your are copying the ideas from Dota and so you want the have the same problems and the same fixes. With my idea, you don't need to fix anything, because the problem doesn't exist in the first place.
And since your so strong you don't need t worry about death.
Dying is always bad. What you describe happens in every game I know and it is not an excuse to not apply my idea.
Plus, you guys want to make system for everything... better go make a new game while your at it.
Well, that's the main idea: to create something new. It's called originality and you may want to start having some as well.
If you don't want to create something new, than we are wasting our time IMO.

I say lets take Flame_Phoenix's idea further. I agree with upgrading low-tier items, but not to the extent of making them high-tier, but rather include 'sockets' or 'gems' or whatever that grant your items special effects, for example frost attack, critical strike, devotion aura, life-leech etcetera.
Exactly !!
Let me explain, sure some combinations of "sockets" would be good, but some would be imbalanced!
Well, we may be careful then right? Oh wait ... we should not create heroes because THEY CAN BE UNBALANCED !!!
Eveything has the risk of being unbalanced, that's why God created Beta-testers and coders to fix such things. This should not be a problem imo.
Btw, the system I refer to, uses recipes, but they are "hidden", in a way of speaking.
The basic example would be:
I buy +1STR item. Then I have some gold and I decide to upgrade the item buy adding +1STR and I get a +2STR item and so on. The upgrade could be done in a forge or blacksmith and it would have a cost, let's say "cost of actual item + upgrade cost + taxes" or something like that, thus, if you want to make a lot of upgrades for a tier item, it will be expensive.
Recipes tend to get over-complicated and requires intense studying since players need to learn them all, pretty much.
This is exactly what I feel ! My idea offers a solution to recipes and to intense studying.
Who mentioned Tides of Blood. It has sockets. Who plays that map? no one.
So, if everyone jumps out of a bridge it's because it is a good idea and you should do it as well, right?
NO. That is not an argument. Unfortunately quality is not equal to popularity. People don't play Tides of Blood because no one knows that project outside of the map making communities. All my wc3 friends know Dota, and play it, but when I show them new projects like AoM or like Castle vs Castle they love it and play it.

IMO; sockets are easier than recipes. They don't force me to know all the recipe combinations, I only need to know the existing sockets. It is a lot easier. Besides, we can add a socket limit per item, like, each item can only have 2 sockets.
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
If we add sockets, you only need like 20 items + consumables and stuff like that.

But what you need is for example only 1 sword, 1 axe, 1 spear, 1 light armor, 1 heavy, and the people can upgrade then how ever they want...

Like I said, just get a DMG increasing items at whole inventory. and the slowly socket them. You probably wont die.
 
Level 24
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
2,572
Actually no, I don't know. When I moved from Dota to AoM I was lost. When I experimented Tides of Blood or Legends of Sand I was lost.

Go practice a game or two vs a bot or by yourself before you start to play an AoS which you never played before...
Problem solved.

Well, that's the main idea: to create something new.

There is a line between new and simple. You seem not to see it clearly.

This is exactly what I feel ! My idea offers a solution to recipes and to intense studying.

There is no need for a "solution" to recipes, they work fine and aren't broken.
And no recipes don't need studying, they need common sense and good eyesight.

So, if everyone jumps out of a bridge it's because it is a good idea and you should do it as well, right?

Apply that on the socket idea.

IMO; sockets are easier than recipes. They don't force me to know all the recipe combinations, I only need to know the existing sockets. It is a lot easier. Besides, we can add a socket limit per item, like, each item can only have 2 sockets.

I still think the idea is not suited for the project...
We should open up a Poll...
 
If we add sockets, you only need like 20 items + consumables and stuff like that.
Which is awesome and extremely intuitive. No need to know all 200 items from hon nor their names and combinations.
There is a line between new and simple. You seem not to see it clearly.
Sockets are not just new, to AoS maps, they also make them simple. Just read my above quote.
And no recipes don't need studying, they need common sense and good eyesight.
With comments like this you are obviously a low tier player. How many people do you teached playing dota or hon? how many tutorials and tournament games have you seen?
I've had my time and I teached all my friends playing. All my friends experienced the same problem with recipes. The only reason you think they are easy it's because you are used to them. New people are not used to them and therefore they actually find it demotivating to know all the combinations and simply end up ignoring recipes. This is bad. This is a problem.
Apply that on the socket idea.
No one uses the socket idea, so we shouldn't use it as well? NO. Again, what others do or might not do does not serve as an excuse. We are not copying ideas, we are creating ideas, that's what makes us who we are.
We should open up a Poll...
I totally agreed.
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
You need 20 items, but you need to know what socket can you put in to it, and what it will do. That is way more to know then for recopies.
 
Level 45
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
8,154
About the poll idea... I totally disagree. Because some people will just vote for their favorite and it wont be a matter of 'professional opinion' anymore but just a matter of how much someone likes something.

You need 20 items, but you need to know what socket can you put in to it, and what it will do. That is way more to know then for recopies.
You need a basic damage item, a basic armor item, a basic attack speed item and... Oh right. That's it.
And then you need to browse the socket shop to check what socket you want\need more. :/
 
You need 20 items, but you need to know what socket can you put in to it, and what it will do. That is way more to know then for recopies.
Not at all. Imagine that you have a +10Attack sword and you want to add freeze to it: you buy ice socket. Imagine that, instead, you want to add fire damage to it: you add fire sockect. It doesn't get any easier. You just need to know the names of the 3 elemental sockets (ice, fire, poison? I think these are all orbs wc3 has) and some sort of aura sockets(vamp, attack, defense, move, attack speed) and choose if you want to combine them on the weapon or not. No need to know recipes, no need to know which item combines with what. Ofc, we cann add new sockets if you want to.
I count 8 sockets here. Tell me, how many recipes do you think Dota has? I'll give you a hint: certainly more than 8.
Is 8 too much for you to remember? Go play Dota then, I am sure their hundreds of items and recipes will be easier to remember... (irony...)


About the poll idea... I totally disagree. Because some people will just vote for their favorite and it wont be a matter of 'professional opinion' anymore but just a matter of how much someone likes something.
True, but let's be honest here, no one on the team besides you and me cares about professionalism. Most people simply want Dota's ideas in a new project because they fear trying something new. I know this discussion will go on forever, so if I am going down, I better go down now. Who knows if my ideas will be used in other projects or even in SC2 or some RPG.
 
Level 24
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
2,572
New people are not used to them and therefore they actually find it demotivating to know all the combinations and simply end up ignoring recipes.

Let me quote a recipe from dota:

Phase Boots:

Gives:
+70 Movement speed
+24 Damage
Phase(active)

Requires:
Boots of Speed - 500
2x Blades of Attack - 900

Total Cost: 1400

And you tell me you cant read that for the Phase Boots you need 1x Boots of Speed and 2x Blades of attack?

With comments like this you are obviously a low tier player. How many people do you teached playing dota or hon? how many tutorials and tournament games have you seen?

No need to get personal, i ain't a low tier player i am just bound to Garena for not having a legal copy...
HoN is crap and i don't play it...
About the amount of people i teached to play Dota the number is around 5-6.

I am sorry but i simply can't think of a reason why is it a problem for a person to read the needed items for a recipe...

Edit:

Xarwin sounds wise.
 
Level 45
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
8,154
I agree with Xarwin in a way, I guess.
Anyways, Kingz, there are more complicated recipes. One of the worse cases for me is when you need to combine multiple recipes just to make one recipe. Like, for "Blade of Vampirism" you will need "Shiny Blade" and "Gem of Vampirism", but to get "Shiny Blade" you need 2x "Iron Blades" and 3x "Shiny Gem", and to get "Gem of Vampirism" you need "Gem of Power", "Gem of Auras", "Gem of Blood" and "Dracula's Cape". And that's one of the simplest cases, imagine what if Shiny Gems, Gems of Power, Gems of Auras, Gems of Blood and Dracula's Capes all required recipes as well. :/
 
And you tell me you cant read that for the Phase Boots you need 1x Boots of Speed and 2x Blades of attack?
yes. When people first play HoN they don't even understand what recipes are for, they don't even understand why we should use them over normal regular items.
You know Phase boots, perhaps you can tell me all the other recipe names as well? Because that's what a good player needs to know, and personally, I think it is ridiculous.
HoN is crap and i don't play it...
I few months ago I would kill you for saying that but ... it's true, HoN is crap. However as far as Dota copies go, HoN is the best so far IMO.

Well, making a mix of recipes and gems .... I don't know. I mean, then our recipes would need to be able to receive gem upgrades.
I don't know ... :S
 
Level 16
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
2,073
Well, making a mix of recipes and gems .... I don't know. I mean, then our recipes would need to be able to receive gem upgrades.
I don't know ... :S
Brilliant. I just got another Idea: Limit what Gems can be inserted on Recipes. e.g. A recipe item increases your attack speed by, lets say, 30%. Then that Item cannot be given an Attack-Speed Increasing Gem.

Oh wait. That's more complex.
 
Want them alphabetically?
Sure. And numbered too please.
Brilliant. I just got another Idea: Limit what Gems can be inserted on Recipes. e.g. A recipe item increases your attack speed by, lets say, 30%. Then that Item cannot be given an Attack-Speed Increasing Gem.

Oh wait. That's more complex.
Well, the main idea (without recipes) stated that each item could only have 1 gem on it. I believe this was simple enough. Now we are mixing this with recipes ... I don't know :s
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
I think mixing sockets and recipes is hardest. Imagine Templar Shield, a very powerful as it is with sockets, will make it to powerful. Then again no sockets mean that eventually socketed items will surpass it.

And Flame Phoenix, you said that most new players in that AoS of yours don't even get what recipes are for? That will probably happen with sockets too, so you can't take that as an argument.

And I'm think that a poly should be created to see what people think. We will in advance say that that it wont determine what we'll chose, but it will be a good idea what people want/think.


This is what happens when we settle on an idea, and then someone comes in and trows in an idea that can't be decided on.
And if we go with sockets, all that work of Kingz and others on creating items and posting, and my on reviewing and making them (not posted) goes to hell. Thx for killing hours of work.


And amargaard, go to Hive's Battlefield item submission tread. All items are there.
 
Dude, you can have too much powerful items without sockets. In fact the same items that are unbalanced with sockets can also be unbalanced with recipes and vice-versa. For the last time, balance is NOT AN EXCUSE TO NOT IMPLEMENT AND IDEA. Balance comes from the testers.
And Flame Phoenix, you said that most new players in that AoS of yours don't even get what recipes are for? That will probably happen with sockets too, so you can't take that as an argument.
That's the funny thing, I can. it is my personal experience that tells me that people have more problems understand recipes than sockets, therefore they like sockets better.
All my friends have no problems understanding the concept of gems in weapons (probably because everyone is familiar with that idea from Diablo2 or some other RPG?) but with recipes the mentality changes.

To be honest, you didn't settle anything about items. All your ideas until now were useless because they were depending on an attribute system that never got approved not evaluated on the first place (that's what you get for ignoring my warnings). As bad as it may look, we are still on the phase of idealizing the item system the project will use. And this time, we need to settle this before we start giving half-assed item suggestions.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but that's what happens when you simply want to move too fast - you don't move at all.
 
Level 45
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
8,154
When I played ToB for the first time I immediately understood what sockets were for, because everything was incredibly simple. All items had a "Right-click on socket and then click on item to socket it" description kind of thing, and an indication of how many sockets are there left. There was ONE shop for sockets and two shops for basic items. All in all there were about 6 sockets and 12 basic items, plus 5 or so "Secret Merchant" items.
ALL OF THE ITEMS AND SOCKETS were VERY, VERY BASIC. There were no "Devotion Aura" or "Vampirism" or "Click to summon a gignatic volcano that destroys units in the way throwing them in the air then stunning them and dealing damage and then knocking back then exploding dealing damage to the units" items\sockets. Everything was simple, like "+3 STR", "+15% Attack Speed", "+5 Damage".

This is what happens when we settle on an idea, and then someone comes in and trows in an idea that can't be decided on.
And if we go with sockets, all that work of Kingz and others on creating items and posting, and my on reviewing and making them (not posted) goes to hell. Thx for killing hours of work.
Welcome to developing a map. Enjoy your stay.
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
Flame, you don't have an idea how people react to sockets, since it wasn't done before, and can't be compared to RPGs cuz there is a freaking tutorial there.

And, I don't give a sh*t anymore, do what ever you want...


And Debode, most maps just give idea tread, and say post your ideas here, well take them if we want to, and forbid any argument. We can't do this here cuz its a community map...
 
Flame, you don't have an idea how people react to sockets, since it wasn't done before, and can't be compared to RPGs cuz there is a freaking tutorial there.
I have an idea (and so does Debode). It has been done before. It's simply not popular.
This sockets idea can be explored, we just need to choose to do it.
I was thinking about 3 types of sockets: active (give an active ability to an item), aura (give aura) and passive(like orb). If people like lots of stuff in items, this can be explored in that way.
Simple items like Debode mention are something I would like to see, but having in mind this is a cimmunity project, I am not sure if people are not going to want the
Click to summon a gignatic volcano that destroys units in the way throwing them in the air then stunning them and dealing damage and then knocking back then exploding dealing damage to the units
instead of simple items that cannot be unbalanced.

Both systems offer limitations and both systems have their own complexity in their own way. It is up to us to explore those ideas.
 
Level 45
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
8,154
Most maps, or at least the ones I know, have 2-3 dedicated members who discuss stuff in MSN for weeks and then in one day BAM they change all of their ideas for something completely different. That's called "DEVELOPING A MAP", damnit. You can't expect to finish a map in one week...

Anyways, I say sockets, but the very powerful items, which should be unique(aka one hero can have one item), require combinations\a recipe.
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
I have an idea (and so does Debode). It has been done before. It's simply not popular.

Ah, I see, your trying to sell as an idea that is not popular... hmm...



And Debode, I'm not expecting it to be finished in 1 week, I just don't want to change ideas when ever we start working on it. That will prolong the release to indefinite. And plus, SC2 is coming out soon...
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
Newer said its not possible. I just don't like it. But you know? What ever.


Just so you know, having recipes allowed us to name items after users that didn't get a hero, and still deserve mentioning it. This way it can't be done.
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
Because like Debode said you have 20 items. 20. With recipes you get 20. 6 times more. You know how much that is?

Why do you care. You probably got your hero in, so now lets screw other people chance to get they're name in to the map.
 
This is not about letting people in, it is about making a quality project. There is not enough space for everyone, you know that from the start. You also know that team members have priority over other members, so as part of the team, you are almost sure to be in as well, you have no reason to complain.

If you want to make the project big and messy just because you want every peon on THW to have his name on, then go ahead, but do it without me.

And btw, I don't even have a hero. My name is in the team, but I have no hero and no item to exemplify me. This is not a showoff, this is a serious project.

For all I care, All THW can be in the credits section.

And btw, we can always make more than 20 items. Depends on how we make the item system work.
 
Level 20
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
6,761
You can make some heroes only able to make some items. I don't know what heroes you've got, but maybe something like "Friky the Pandaren", "PandarenMAN" and "Another Pandaren Hero" (Random names... I'm trying to say: simply all heroes that are Pandarens) can make the item "<Insert another username known for being alcoholic or something>'s Barrel of Alcohol", by mixing up some picked items and maybe use a spell, and then TADA, here's your [<Name>'s Barrel of Alcohol]...
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
Lol, I know that not all people can get in, but I want to give everyone who wants to be mentioned. If he wants ie. he will have to agree on hero or item or what ever :p
This was one of the first ideas we agreed upon at the start of the project.

And it is a serious project, but how can we work on it when we keep changing ideas. Terrain is done very well, and systems are also well on their way.

But we lack heroes, and we can't settle how will items work, and they are 2 most important things in game-play. No one see systems, and doesn't pay to much attention to terrain (except first few times), they worry about which hero to take, should I get an item that boosts my dmg or my primary attribute, hmm...

Like I said SC2 is coming soon... god knows what will happen...
 
Level 18
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
2,363
That is not a basic item,so it doesn't fit flames socket idea, can't be used sorry. He took over the project so we have to listen to what he says.[sarcasam\]He's such and influential member, hes better then Ralle. It would be stupid to not accept his great and godly ideas, because for sure they are newb-friendly and perfect in any way imagined.
 
Level 20
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
6,761
It was kinda joke, but it would be fun anyways :p

And if you could make an item called [Daily Peon Newspaper], maybe a cheap thing buyable from some store, that only gives a little Intellect or even nothing, but haves some few fun news and jokes in description, it would be an item dedicated to the whole Daily Peon Social Group here on HIVE (I am member of that. We are about 25 members. It is probably the most active group on HIVE with the most Pictures and longest discussion-threads. We even have a WIKI!! :O)

I would be totally glad if you also made an item called [Amargaard's Pickaxe]. Not buyable, but made from a merge of [Peon's Pickaxe] (Debode made that one) and [Daily Peon Newspaper]. It should not be any super-powerful item, but a special one. Gives some intellect (Like the [Daily Peon Newspaper]) and more damage than the usual [Peon's Pickaxe], gives faster attack (It is enchanted by Time-magic in DP-lore making it faster). Also, you could read about it in the DPWIKI, though that's not important. So... what you say? :]
 
And it is a serious project, but how can we work on it when we keep changing ideas.
How can you say you changed ideas when you had no idea of what you were doing in the first place?
Btw, flashnews : change happens.
Terrain is done very well, and systems are also well on their way.
Terrain is nothing like we've planed. It was supposed to be a fortress or a castle and not some crappy cheap copy of a Dota base in a different set with different buildings. The systems are already done, we just need to finish some.
The SC2 fear factor is taking over the team. Everyone fears that wc3 will die and suddenly everyone wants to see the project finished before day 28 of Jully. Guess what, you can't make a decent map in that time, it will need more. This rush on items and heroes will only result in a project of low quality.

The item problem was one of the first problems. However, instead of discussing and finding a solution like I an Otaku_Dash wanted everyone decided to ignore us and started making idiotic items. Now this has finally happened. I told you so.
I don't care if all your hours of work go to waste, it will be a lesson for you to learn: that you must first build the foundations and then the rest.

We are now discussing the foundations, which is the first thing we should've done: long before creating items.
And things will keep changing. If you want this project to be anything near decent, that's how it is going to be.

I took over nothing. Get over it. You are the one who took over the project, I just came by and decided to disagree with your ideas. Now you think I am bossing around while in fact I depend on Xarwin to decide what happens to my ideas.
 
Top