Idea Thread

[Kingz]

Will there be short time buff potions along with normal HP/MP pots?

And have you considered this?

 

[Viikuna]

If you don't plan on using textags to make HP bars, what do you exactly have in mind? Personally I don't know any other way, iirc.


No need to get angry. It's just a lot funnier to type it this way.

Id also like to call you Flame_Penis, but I dont. Try to think why.


And if you read my posts youd know that its better to create bars with images. ( They are pretty damn fast, btw. )

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Imo terrain showcase #6(the one with the cathedral) is pretty plain at some parts.

+1. I agree.
The cathedral idea seems nice, the main goal of each team could be to destroy the enemy's team cathedral that is inside the castle.

Empire vs Chaos? Discipline vs Rule-breakers ? or something similar?

Not a good Idea IMO. I for once would not like to be in the "rule breakers" team because I try to play for the rules. I also don't think other people would like that. And finally, immortalizing the retards that repeatedly ignored THW rules doesn't seem much of a good idea to me.

My question is...what about runes/shrines which would be spread randomly around the map? (more like shrines in Diablo , cause they were pwnsome...)
And what about some kind of neutrals? will they be in there?

Nice idea, dunno if Xarwin would like it however. This looks like the "Rune spots" in DOta, so I guess it could be used because players are use to them.

Btw Viikuna he made that underline to show that there are those i's

Finally someone who understands me. Yes. Exactly.
I never saw those i's until Viikuna got pissed at me for not seeing them. Now I will never make that mistake again!

Id also like to call you Flame_Penis, but I dont. Try to think why.

Because I don't remove letters from your name, while you remove letters from my name. It's that easy. Relax dude, it's not like I am making fun of you or something.

And if you read my posts youd know that its better to create bars with images. ( They are pretty damn fast, btw. )

I assumed you were talking about textags all the time. Is there any system or code that uses your method ? I don't think I've ever seen it in action before.
Thx in advance.

 

[syltman]

Could you guys also please take a note that the terrain is created.
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/166837-albums3135.html

Should we really go with a forest? The layout is nice thought it's just that the theme needs changing methinks. Anyways we still need a theme that we're going to stick with.

Also I think we should not go with rule breakers vs rule followers. This is going to be a project for hive were those who has been nice should be in. Idiots etc. should not be a part of this.

 

[Otaku Dash]

Well.
Humans could take up a cold area and Orcs the barren wastelands.
In that way it suits perfectly and models can indeed be made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingz View Post
Would that mean that there will be only human/orc hero models implemented?

Probably a stupid question but a question still...
No, not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame_Phoenix View Post
Orcs ... well, at least they are better than the trolls ...
Well, you can still suggest some other things.
I still think some kind of legionnaires versus mercenaries would look nice.

Humans Vs Orcs isn't all that bad... plus it goes back to the roots of warcraft and warcraft communities. I do like the Idea of Armored Knights versus Mercenaries... since warcraft already has some base models that can be used and tinkered with (besides the new models that will be created).

On orc/human discussion, maybe the one that takes the Borealis side could have a more fur/black armor themed based... and that way it does work a bit well with orcs (as long as they are covered a bit..since.. let's face it orcs were not used to colder regions) due to their warlike and blacksmithing skills.

On the other hand you could just left the humans on the colder regions (more adaptable species) and orcs on familiar barren grounds.

As for the map, I must say it does look great for what has been done so far. It does look a bit desolate of things to "use" aswell as mobspawns but then again we must take point that this is just the start of the terrain profiling.

The cathedral idea sounds kinda nice... maybe if spiced a bit up:

How about taking the empty upper left corner and right bottom corner and making more interesting... like... dunno, maybe zones that are closed off to players by Runic Gates and that will open sometime in in game (middle-to-late game) containing very powerful mobs and boss monsters guarding runic artefacts.

The spawns would be terribly hard and players would have to teamwork to get them. Also when a team member acquires the artefact it gets slowed and must be protected by the other team mates till he reaches the Cathedral on his base, where the artefact will be mounted.

However, what I mean isn't something like DoTa or HON that blesses players but more increases the powers of your OWN creep spawns. I heard you guys have been talking about a system like this one... and kinda by organizing things like these, even if you are on the losing team, you might be able to turn the tides of battle a bit to your side by boosting your own army spawns.

 

[Numerion]

ah well...i didnt realize that...

also about the terrain...if we are going to have orcs at one side , there shouldn't be much trees (look at rexar's campaign or into orc's territory in wow) , orcs live in a kind of wasteland and are trying to rebuild it into their territory...so i don't think that forest would fit it :/

^ lets not make it a rax hunt as is in DoTA, HoN and LoL >.>

also i am thinking of more utilizing the neutrals...make some neutral "quest-like" things which you can do , or have to do in order to gain upper-hand (ofc randomly spawned so it won't end like in naruto-wars or whatever was the name...)

 

[Otaku Dash]

ah well...i didnt realize that...

also about the terrain...if we are going to have orcs at one side , there shouldn't be much trees (look at rexar's campaign or into orc's territory in wow) , orcs live in a kind of wasteland and are trying to rebuild it into their territory...so i don't think that forest would fit it :/

^ lets not make it a rax hunt as is in DoTA, HoN and LoL >.>

also i am thinking of more utilizing the neutrals...make some neutral "quest-like" things which you can do , or have to do in order to gain upper-hand (ofc randomly spawned so it won't end like in naruto-wars or whatever was the name...)

Yeah, that's why I said it would be more like barren wastelands a few posts back... I can't see orcs on a florest somehow.

And I agree it shouldn't be a rax hunt, that's why I meantioned hard spawns on only for a limited time in the game. From what I've heard Xarwin and a few things from the project, it's gonna be fast paced, yet there is gonna be a few mechanics based on teamwork (something games sometimes lack IMO).

A quest like system sounds interesting, as long as the flow of the game is not disrupted in any way... meaning players just go completely bonkers about questing and forgetting lane and caravan protection for example.

Then again last word goes to Xarwin and it's only a suggestion so... yeah.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

I suppose that getting the relics could be a mini-quest ... but I am not sure if that is a good idea. We both know what happens to Kongor in HoN when one tries to kill him ... (the team gets ganked and all get killed) lol.

 

[Otaku Dash]

I suppose that getting the relics could be a mini-quest ... but I am not sure if that is a good idea. We both know what happens to Kongor in HoN when one tries to kill him ... (the team gets ganked and all get killed) lol.

That's why I meant it would have to worked out... I took that into consideration when I said "Mid-to-late game" and of course.. CLOSED WITH GATES. XD Basicly if a team enters to fight the Boss and the mobs inside for the relic, the doors close behind them impeding the other team to outgank them in battle... however there is still the thing of getting the relic to the Cathedral and the protection of the "relic carry" wich means strategy and teamwork are key here.

Of course if someone goes "HAI GUYS! I'MA GONNA FETCH MA RELIC THERE!" and goes solo or without the majority of the team the gates will not close (and he'll probably be "raped" by the mobs there >_>).

Of course this is just a "on the spot" and "on a long long term" idea for the future.. IF it is even picked. As it was said there are more priority issues to take care first.. I just mentioned it because the terrain seems kinda "desolate" at this point, wich will probably change in a long term since it's on development yet.

 

[Deolrin]

Yeah, that's why I said it would be more like barren wastelands a few posts back... I can't see orcs on a florest somehow.

Well, what about the Warsong clan? They invaded Ashenvale in the Third War already and are still fighting the night elves there in Warsong Gulch(as they call the area and the lumber mill stationed there) in 'current days'.

 

[Otaku Dash]

Well, what about the Warsong clan? They invaded Ashenvale in the Third War already and are still fighting the night elves there in Warsong Gulch(as they call the area and the lumber mill stationed there) in 'current days'.

I'm no expert in Warcraft lore... but weren't they actually "forced" to do that due to exudus to Kalimdor? If I recall they only provoked the night elves because Grom Hellscream said they needed to build a base camp for the Warchief (Thrall back then, since I do not follow anything about WOW). Orcs were used to the barren wastelands back when they were still "tools" of the burning legion in their homeplanet, and the proof is after they were brought here by Medivh and waged war against humans, they always stood a bit closer to deserted and barren zones (although some settled in forests near the frontier against human settlements to wage war). But then again I'm no expert... I'm not sure of some things before the 3rd war... so if I'm wrong please correct me =S (Sorry if I went a bit offtopic here ^_^; ).

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Well, what about the Warsong clan? They invaded Ashenvale in the Third War already and are still fighting the night elves there in Warsong Gulch(as they call the area and the lumber mill stationed there) in 'current days'.

Yes, they are fightning the night elfs, not the humans. Besides, Humans vs Orcs is a classic and both parties are neutral this way.
I also don't think that forest orcs are a good idea ...

Still, changing the scenario into a wasteland vs northrend map shouldn't be that hard, Anachron knows a few tricks to make it quickly iirc.

Now that I think abut it, I don't imagine Orcs with a cathedral either ... should be something more like a temple I guess ....

What do you think Xarwin?

 

[Deolrin]

Well obviously they were living in the Barrens, quite fittingly a barren and rugged land, since they arrived to Kalimdor. In the Eastern Kingdoms they were living on grassy areas, and Outland pretty much looked like this before the Warlocks asploded the planet:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080727031825/wowwiki/images/2/28/Nagrand.jpg
(Nagrand as it is today - it is one of the only areas in Outland\Draenor that still looks very much the same, and it is the former home of the Frostwolf clan)

Anyways, getting a little off-topic, sorry for that...
Orcs vs Humans in a forest sounds like the best idea.

Flame Phoenix, I was talking about the "forest\desert" thing.

 

[Kingz]

That's why I meant it would have to worked out... I took that into consideration when I said "Mid-to-late game" and of course.. CLOSED WITH GATES. XD Basicly if a team enters to fight the Boss and the mobs inside for the relic, the doors close behind them impeding the other team to outgank them in battle... however there is still the thing of getting the relic to the Cathedral and the protection of the "relic carry" wich means strategy and teamwork are key here.

Of course if someone goes "HAI GUYS! I'MA GONNA FETCH MA RELIC THERE!" and goes solo or without the majority of the team the gates will not close (and he'll probably be "raped" by the mobs there >_>).

I am against this.

You got raped while fightning an epic mob? Buy wards and learn to use the minimap.

Also what if the enemy team wards the mob so they can actually set up a gang?

Making this disabled would remove a certain tactical gameplay factor if you ask me, since map awareness is the key to winning in these games anyway.

I would like to see a capture the flag type mode if it is possible.

 

[Otaku Dash]

Yes, they are fightning the night elfs, not the humans. Besides, Humans vs Orcs is a classic and both parties are neutral this way.
I also don't think that forest orcs are a good idea ...

Still, changing the scenario into a wasteland vs northrend map shouldn't be that hard, Anachron knows a few tricks to make it quickly iirc.

Now that I think abut it, I don't imagine Orcs with a cathedral either ... should be something more like a temple I guess ....

What do you think Xarwin?

Of course when I meant "Cathedral" I meant as in "Main Home building". Cathedral works fine for Humans but orcs should either have a Temple like you suggested or something more ancient... like a Stone Circle or a Shaman Retire of sorts. But like it was said before.. only Xarwin has the last word.

I am against this.

You got raped while fightning an epic mob? Buy wards and learn to use the minimap.

Also what if the enemy team wards the mob so they can actually set up a gang?

Making this disabled would remove a certain tactical gameplay factor if you ask me, since map awareness is the key to winning in these games anyway.

I would like to see a capture the flag type mode if it is possible.

Then again I never said you could not be intercepted while you HAD the relic ;D

That's why teamwork is important on what I said... you might be able to get the relic and the gates open again... but if you don't have map awareness, the enemy just might be able to ambush you as you go out and kill the "relic carry", stealing it for themselves and destroying your whole team. So thinking on doing this also involves a greater strategy thinking and situation awareness.

Also, with a few small tweaks this system could be changed to a carry the flag mode you just mentioned.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Transporting the relic could work like a capture the flag mode, I like the idea. However I do not approve the gates idea. I tend to agree with kingzz, if you are fighting a boss then you better ward the place before you risk the treasure.

 

[Viikuna]

I assumed you were talking about textags all the time. Is there any system or code that uses your method ? I don't think I've ever seen it in action before.
Thx in advance.

Theres system called Image Bars by Deaod in wc3c.net.

You can make your own artwork for bars, so they dont look so fucking ugly as texttags do. ( I mean cmon. Those texttag bars are terrible. )

Images are asynchronous handles, so you can also create and manipulate them locally. They are also pretty fast, so with them you can probably have more bars than with dummy units with bar models.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Theres system called Image Bars by Deaod in wc3c.net.

The API seems friendly and the idea is totally nice. I like it ! Bad thing is that you will need some imports, but having in mind the possibilities I wouldn't consider that much of a problem and 85KB for a bar system though is considerable, it isn't that big either.

You can make your own artwork for bars, so they dont look so fucking ugly as texttags do. ( I mean cmon. Those texttag bars are terrible. )

I never liked textags either !
I approve making your own bar models. WoW style !
You can even use it to make a shield HP bar or something

 

[Kingz]

I tend to agree with kingzz, if you are fighting a boss then you better ward the place before you risk the treasure.

Exactly, there should be no gate, use the map for your advantage

If you get killed while carrying the relic the killer should get it because you were reckless.

offtopic:

It is Kingz, not kingzz =\

 

[Viikuna]

Yea exactly. Mana bars, or maybe some protoss warrior with shields and shield bars?


Ans since their alpha value can be edited locally, you can do invisibikity system I suggested, which makes unit, its bar and shadow completely invisible for any player you want.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

It is Kingz, not kingzz =\

People are so pesky about their names nowadays... Jesus .... grammar Nazis !!

How do you change the shadow value of a unit? I don't remember seeing a native for that.
Anyway, it's up to Xarwin now.

 

[syltman]

People are so pesky about their names nowadays... Jesus .... grammar Nazis !!

I notice you always pick the wrong verb.
What you mean is: "he will be warned" (future, something that is going to happened and not happened yet).
"he would be warn" means that... well, it means nothing ... (lol).

How do you change the shadow value of a unit? I don't remember seeing a native for that.
Anyway, it's up to Xarwin now.

That can be changed in the object editor, I doubt there's any native for changing that in-game. One solution could be to have shadow models and attach them to units.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

One thing is making a simple mistake 1 time, another (completely) different thing is making the same grammar mistake all the time. I am not a grammar Nazi, I am a grammar friend

That can be changed in the object editor, I doubt there's any native for changing that in-game. One solution could be to have shadow models and attach them to units.

This solution sounds quite messy ... I hope Viikuna has a better idea.

 

[Numerion]

shadows. can. be. changed. in. the. object. editor.

btw i support those image HP bars

 

[Viikuna]

Shadows can be captured. ( Thanks to Deaod again. )


Units shadows are images, so when unit is created and its shadow is also created it gets the next available image handle id.

You just gotta make sure that your variable is pointing to the handle id this new created shadow is gonna get, and you can capture it.

Code by Deaod:

library GatherShadows requires AutoIndex, ImageUtils
    
    globals
        private constant    string              DUMMY_IMAGE_FILE        = "ReplaceableTextures\\CommandButtons\\BTNPeasant.blp"
    endglobals
    
    globals
        private image TempImg=null
    endglobals
    
    struct UnitShadow
        image img
        private unit u
        
        private static method createFilter takes unit u returns boolean
            return TempImg!=null // if it equals null, CreateUnit was not used.
        endmethod
        
        private method onCreate takes nothing returns nothing
            set img=TempImg
            set TempImg=null
        endmethod
        
        private method onDestroy takes nothing returns nothing
            set img=null
        endmethod
        
        implement AutoCreate
        implement AutoDestroy
    endstruct
    
    private function CreateUnitHook takes player p, integer uid, real x, real y, real ang returns nothing
        set TempImg=CreateImage(DUMMY_IMAGE_FILE, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1)
        call DestroyImage(TempImg)
    endfunction
    
    hook CreateUnit CreateUnitHook
    
endlibrary

 

[Kingz]

People are so pesky about their names nowadays... Jesus .... grammar Nazis !!

I am not pesky, i am just wondering, if you read a person's post don't you think it is at least worth to remember the person's name?

Especially if you are replying to that person.

Sorry for the offtopic talk.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

I am not pesky, i am just wondering, if you read a person's post don't you think it is at least worth to remember the person's name?

Dude, I understand why Vikuna got pissed at me because I made the same mistake repeatedly.
IN your case, it was a mere typo, I simply pressed the "Z" button for too long or maybe I hit it twice by mistake. Isn't it obvious? Jesus, people already called me Flame_Birdie and I didn't get offended like you !

And no, if you want to be remembered you must deserve it.

@Viikuna: do it means all units in wc3 have the same image shadow? It also means that you need another import for the "general" shadow. Well, I guess it could be nice... if you really need it for the bar and invis system of yours.

 

[Viikuna]

You can use whatever image you want for that shadow. Either the one that already exists in MPQ, or some custom made one if you want.

Like always you dont really have to import anything. But if you do, you can possibly make it look better.




Concerning imports: I think you should save your custom model file size for most important thingies: Heroes.
They are the backbone of AoS maps, so they should be the ones getting all the custom art. Also some spells simply requie you to make fitting art & animations for them.

You cant do all spells with vJass alone. You also need custom art.


Some attachment weapons and animation sets for creeps are kinda waste IMO. You dont play with those creeps, you play with Heroes, and so you dont really get out that coolness of those creeps and all the custom art spent to them.

Of course if it is possible to have both. Art for Heroes and creeps as well, it would naturally be the best option. But if you gotta choose because of the file size of the map, Heroes should come first.

 

[Xarwin]

I am sorry for the late response but I am currently very busy this week with my exams.
This will decrease my activity drastically for this week only.
However, next week I'm fully here to consider all idea's and to work the map further out.
Please, try to take it at one line and, the terrain will not be changed for now.
Remember that we only need BASICS to start it up.
I have a feeling that too many features are discussed at once.

I would appreciate it if someone could keep up a track for me for the idea's submitted.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

I would appreciate it if someone could keep up a track for me for the idea's submitted.

Ideas I found interesting so far. Please notify me to update the index if I forgot about something:
- Bar system
- Invis system using shadow system
- capture the flag system and boss idea
- map shrines (runes)
- Base and walls ideas

 

[Xarwin]

Okay people, about the idea's given:

@ Bar system.
Well, I am not sure. Adding a mana bar is a very good idea in my opinion however what about the original life bar which is displayed through the alt button? It will overlap I think.

@ Invis system using shadow system.
I think that this is a great idea! In this way we can create 2 depths in invisibility and make things more excited. But I need to see an example of this "shadow capture" system. I am pretty curious about it.

@ map shrines (runes)
Sounds awesome. Each game could generate some random shrines which give you a specific bonus like in diablo as you said.

@ Base and walls ideas
Perhaps we could include walls. I think it would be nice having walkable walls, so eventually heroes can attack out of that spot too.
In some way we still should be careful with how we create it since too many units at the front could cause an endless game.

 

[Kingz]

What would i like to see in this map is a Anti Backdooring system rendering your structures invulnerable to backdooring since anyone who has a blink(and enough hp/damage) could own your base while you are fightning.

Also you could add some slight terrain/weather bonuses like, rain or while you are walking in a shallow water your mana regen is increased by 0.5 per second(probably a bit too random).

Third idea would be an thing to make sure you can't destroy YOUR own items.

Belive me i get frustrated when my companion in dota pulls out his items, destroys them and leave the game -.-

So when you are issued an order targeting an item, if it is yours, cancel it.
Also i wonder what will you do with leaving heroes items? I also suggest increase in XP gain for all heroes when a leaver leaves, maybe not permanent.

BIG NOTE: Never implement a option like switch in Dota, it ruins the game.

Oh well a couple of random ideas i just got.

 

[Xarwin]

Yes an anti-backdoor system is a very good idea.
Actually I think its normal implanting that as a basic.

However about the weather system I'm not sure. It would be a bit too much together with the shrines.

Your third idea is very good. However it may be frustrating for a few players.
Perhaps destroying the item should give back 1/2 or 1/3 gold. So if he leaves, that gold is split.

About the xp, I'm not sure. Most AoS games fix it with a higher gold ratio.
However like said before, gold is for items and items should not rule your hero.
A higher xp rate might to the trick, perhaps granting the players a few additional reputation points so they could build up a better defense.

 

[Kingz]

Or make the XP gain only lasting for a specific amount of time, for example 5 minutes.

That way they can catch up with the enemy team and not bee overpowered at the same time.

And yeah the terrain/weather system i found lame myself after some thought.

Belive me, you shouldn't be able to destroy your own items. That doesn't mean your enemies can't destroy your item, but destroying your own items makes no sense, agreed?

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

What would i like to see in this map is a Anti Backdooring system rendering your structures invulnerable to backdooring since anyone who has a blink(and enough hp/damage) could own your base while you are fightning.

Backdoor happens because the map design is poor. In DemiGod there is no backdooring because no matter how strong you are, you will just get killed.
You could do something similar. Instead of placing tower in the middle of nothing, we could make "outposts" that would help defend the towers /lane (like in DemiGod there are mini tower outposts).

So when you are issued an order targeting an item, if it is yours, cancel it.

No.
Because there are times when destroying your item is actually useful in order to keep the enemy from getting it.

However about the weather system I'm not sure. It would be a bit too much together with the shrines.

I think the weather system suggested by Kingz would be an awesome idea. Some units could get bonuses or lose bonuses depending on weather (per example, archers could have a chance to miss the attacks if the weather has strong wind).

Even if you don't like his idea, having a map with random weather is still a very beautiful factor and most players (including I) definitely enjoy it.
Too much Work to implement ? I think not :
http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=102534&highlight=weather

It is already done and I wanted to use it on my map together with the bleeding system he made (and that I also suggested and that all people loved the idea btw).

As for the gold, I still think it should depend on the caravans. However, for a first stage, I believe Xarwin's idea will have to do ...
When a player leaves you could increase the XP in the gaining team, I agree with Kingz as well.

 

[Kingz]

No.
Because there are times when destroying your item is actually useful in order to keep the enemy from getting it.

Like WHEN?

Afaik Divine Rapier the most strongest item in Dota (damage wise) cannot be destroyed anymore.

On the other hand if nothing i hope you make it same as selling the item: You destroy your item you get 33% of it's price, 50% is selling, 33% for destroying it seems reasonable.

EDIT:

Bleeding system as in when damaged you leave a trail of blood?

That would be nice, since it makes it more realistic.
For example if you have under 20-25% HP you leave a trail of small blood dots as you move.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Like WHEN?

Like when I make traps with techies.
Like when in HoN I want to destroy an item because the courier died carrying it.
Like when I want to destroy an item that I bought but that can't be sold.
Enough reasons ?

If you attack and kill an item you should get no gold for it. You are destroying the item for God Sake, no one in it's perfect mind would buy it.
Don't like them, don't buy items.

 

[Kingz]

Like when I want to destroy an item that I bought but that can't be sold.

All items can be sold. I dunno for HoN but in Dota only divine(afaik) can't be destroyed/sold.
For the rest just disassemble them at the base and sell the parts one by one.

Like when I make traps with techies.

And you as a techie destroy the item you bought?
I ain't talking about enemies not being able to destroy an item.
Also techies mostly use clarity potions for these kind of traps

Like when in HoN I want to destroy an item because the courier died carrying it.

The enemy team can't sell your items, they are muted, they can only destroy them which comes back to same.(In Dota)

If you can't do this in HoN then it proves one thing, HoN isn't so good as they tell it is.

 

[Numerion]

You can't sell the axe >.>

also when gem courier of your team dies and some enemy hero wants to take the gem , and you are a ranged hero , its natural to destroy it before he gets to it

 

[Viikuna]

Backdoor happens because the map design is poor.

Quoted for truth. If backdoor is a problem, its because of bad design.

If there is no one to defend the base when enemy is raiding it, you deserve to take some punishment.

Of course you can design your map so that backdooring hurts damnably lot and is hard to stop. This is when it becomes a problem.
This is something you should not do. Making the towers behind the front line invulnerable is ultimately lame idea. ( Do I really need to explain why? )


Also about those custom health and mana bars.

The idea is to remove Blizzards own healthbars. ( Find those textures and/or models from MPQ and import some empty files to replace them )

This way no "always display health bars" -thingie can ever be a problem. And when triggered, you can control health bars the way you like.

You could even make some spell that shows that Hero has low hp and mana, when it really doesnt, which kinda makes it a good bait that can be used to lure enemy players to some trap.

Or make some confusion spell that makes controlling hero hard and among the other things, fucks up all the health and mana bar values for that player.

Or whatever you can think of.



Items should be destroyable. Even if designers cant thing any strategy where destroying item is viable, Im sure that players will.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

If you can't do this in HoN then it proves one thing, HoN isn't so good as they tell it is.

It's better
Hon just suffered an update. Some item (like divine) can't be killed now as well
Anyway, must I remind you that we are not making a replica of Dota? Copying Dota mechanics isn't the way of making "something different"...

Of course you can design your map so that backdooring hurts damnably lot and is hard to stop. This is when it becomes a problem.
This is something you should not do. Making the towers behind the front line invulnerable is ultimately lame idea. ( Do I really need to explain why? )

Amen.

 

[Kingz]

That is why i think items shouldn't be destroyable by you or your team members.

Experiences i encountered during playing AoS:

1.A unknown player from my team is using a leaver hero to destroy the items i bought at base while i am farming in jungle/lane.
2.A guy farms and farms, get great items, dies once, pulls out his ITEMS and destroys them and leave.
3.I die, my ally destroys my gem of sight instead of picking it up >.>

This is the reason i think you shouldn't be able to destroy your's or your team mates items.

If the item you targeted is owned by the enemy you should be able to destroy it.

But for the following 3 reasons i stated above, i strongly suggest making items non-destroyable if they are yours.

Anyway, must I remind you that we are not making a replica of Dota? Copying Dota mechanics isn't the way of making "something different"...

Dota doesn't have these mechanics, that is why i suggested it.

It's better

Your opinion.
Personally i find only the graphics good, the UI and some of the contrast and item shop could have been done much better, also because it is almost as same as Dota downgrades it a lot.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Kingz has a good point. Perhaps you should not allow people to destroy items that belong to allies. Still, if an item is neutral (like gem in Dota) you should be able to kill it instead of allowing the enemy to use it.

 

[Kingz]

Perhaps you should not allow people to destroy items that belong to allies. Still, if an item is neutral (like gem in Dota) you should be able to kill it instead of allowing the enemy to use it.

Exactly my point.

 

[Kingz]

Sorry for double posting i just wanted to notify you guys i will be doing The Hive Battlefield concept(or even loading screens?) art in Photoshop.(by my free will, nobody asked me)

Mainly adding nice effects such as lights or abstract images, anyway i made a nice manipulation from a simple sword into a image, you can find it here:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/150213-albums3220-picture27868.html

Also that picture is unfinished, i am yet to add a nice light flare on the bottom and remove some effects that look bad(the edge of the sword is barely visible atm =\

 

[Xarwin]

Well, that item technique seems acceptable, I approve!

And by the way, we will include a weather system. It was a thought from the begin (check the first/information) post.

Hey Viikuna, that sounds like a very good idea. I will make sure to check that out. It should be a model.

Oh and Kingz great to see your contribution but I have someone doing a loading screen artwork .

Off topic: my exams are kinda over, I will be active again starting sunday.

 

[Otaku Dash]

Hey guys, sorry If I haven't been active lately... things have been very hard these days due to a personal problem that happened a while back... wich mixed with tests and so fourth is making it hard to handle..

Anyways, just checked up the new ideas that popped up and I must say they are awesome.. I love the weather and invisibility ideas that you guys came up with.

As for the backdooring problems I agree that it must be due to lack of map design/mechanics. Want to make it painfull for those that do it? The most obvious way I can think of it it's mostly a check near the area of the towers.. if no attacking creeps are nearby, every hit done to the tower heals it instead of damaging it. If you want a lore explanation think of it as a field of sorts... your creeps are spawns brought fourth by special/arcane ways (spawning system) wich in turn are opposed to the other hive's arts, so being that it disturbs the field around the towers making them able to be weakened and destroyed.

Of course this will need to be tweaked and discussed since the heal "damage" should be rounded to a number or a percentage (still if it was a ratio of 1:1 it would be fun to see a super carry hero go wiseguy and try to take down a tower at low health withough creeps, only to bring it to full life xD). That or we can make it that some of the damage done to the tower while backdooring is reflected back to the attacking hero... combining that with the towers normal attack I think we can concur that it would be a very painful act for someone to do and be a good dissuasive measure for Backdooring.

Another thing that I don't know if it has been discussed is the thing about assists. One of the things that fairly annoys me is when a hero, or group of heroes gank someone or a few members of the opposite team, only to appear a carry/KS based hero to last hit them with a single attack or a one shot ultimate and get all the money while you get a 1up on your assist count. This is especially true to support heroes, since while they may not be fared for combat, they are essential to team survival/gank support (heals, stuns etc.) and mostly they need items to make them last longer in combat and do their role.

Mostly this could be done by checking the damage done to a hero and distributing the wealth around the participants (I think someone mentioned this before), however I might have thought of another mechanic that is fairly interesting.

Each assist (or group of assist) points would convert to "special creep points" that in turn could be used to spawn special creeps on a wave. That being that support heroes would be able to use their hard work on helping the team by reinforcing creep waves with stronger creeps to help the lanes, wich in turn would help them survive longer (since using special kinds of creeps to tank or hamper your foes would make you a much less target for ganks and help you continue support the front lines). Also if they didn't choose to use those points to boost creeps/spawn special creeps, there could be a special building where X assist points could be converted either to gold, or a boost of gold interest.. so they would be able to gather the items they need withough the problems of "support hero farming" (wich sometimes it's a pain and very hard to do... especially if you're at a disavantage) or always being KSed and not having money.

 

[Viikuna]

Is backdooring never been problem in, lets say, normal ladder wc3?

No.

Its a viable strategy, but not overpowered one. You can win with it, but you dont neccesarioly have to backdoor.



And it doesnt have to be this way in AoS either. Backdooring should be one strategy, as well as going from the front door is.

If you go from the front door, youll have to take enemys assault troops down first. If you go from the backdoor, there are only defending troops, so its easier, which is why enemy expects you to try it, so it might turn out to be harder in reality.
Either way, like in every war, it should be more about trying to find out where the enemy is going to attack so you can suprise them. If fuck up and leave your base undefended, you deserve to loose.

( In the Battle of Midway, Japanese shot down 83 American aircrafts loosing only 6 of their own. They had better pilots and better aircrafts, but they left their carriers undefended, so American dive bombers could take them out, resulting losses of about 250 Japanase aircrafts, who had nowhere to land when the they ran out of fuel. )

Its about the designing. In DotA backdooring hurts, because its badly designed. In DotA some items or heroes are banned in league matches, because they are badly balanced.

But this is your map guys. You can choose what it will be like.
There is no reason to try to think ways to prevent backdooring, because backdooring wont be a problem, unless Xarwin fucks up.

And even if it does, you cant really try to find out ways to fix it, before you have played the game and seen the problem in action.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

If you get gold for dealing damage to enemies, you should also gain gold for healing your allies. This method existed in Savage2 and it was a very good way of supporting the healers (that deal no damage at all). This way you ensure that, even when ganking, if you save an ally, you will get rewarded for it.

Dash, btw, can you check Debode's hero concept? I think it is quite messed up and I need some help. You could also check and give feedback on other hero concepts

 

[Viikuna]

If you have some proper buff and healing systems, you can pretty easily reward players from buffing/debuffing and healing.

And from dealing damage ofc.


edit.

You could make a team to receive a static amount of gold that is distributed between team members, ( Gold caravan ) as well as make some of both dead allied and enemy troops to drop some gold coins or other personal items when they die, so you can do some nice pillage stuff for money.

If you wanna achieve this 2 factions at war feeling, the team should not receive more gold from the faction than the faction has. ( From the gold caravan, for example. )

edit2. There should be some reward from hero killing, though. ( Something like Blood in ToB. )

Dont know yet what it could be, but it some "reputation" or "honor" stuff might work. Something that aint physical stuff, because those should be limited and brought by caravans. ( At least thats how I would do it. )