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Hero Concept Comment Thread

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Sorry if I offended.

Im just saying that using some " ...any other aos genre map... " -reasoning when answering peoples questions is bullshit, no matter what your role in the team is.

If theres 25 levels it might be because of the number and levels of abilities, but never because of "any other AoS map" -stuff.
If you go on that road you are in bad trouble, believe me.
 
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i felt like asking if ui could post my own hero cos im active...

i feel a wave of rejection flying towards me.. but no! i stand strong and will try to resist the rejection wave.

The final decision would be from Xarwin.

Could you maybe add unit soundset to the concept template?

This would be request if the concept was approve.
 
felt like asking if ui could post my own hero cos im active...
Not on the project you aren't.
i feel a wave of rejection flying towards me..
I wonder if it is because of the way you try to speak English or ... because you are not active ??? I wonder why ...

Debode: I didn't want your rep++, not without earning it first ... Now I have no choice but to earn it. lol.

So, I saw your hero yesterday and some stuff popped into my mind. Let's review the concept.

First thing I noticed: Imported Icons. The project will try to have a minimal amount of them, this means that you will have to stop using your imported icons, specially when you don't need them.
- For your 2nd ability the blademaster illusion icon would do. If you don't like that icon you can also search the hidden icons here:
http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=84097
I suggest using Lament icon. If you don't like that either, search the wc3 icons. Many of them fit the illusion / invis theme.
- For your 3rd ability you could use the Orc Steel Axe upgrade icon and you would obtain a similar idea with the benefit of not requiring an import.
- The ultimate icon is kinda OK, having in mind there aren't many wc3 with skulls that look nice I would let you have that 1 import. However, I don't like the ultimate (you will know why soon) so that icon may even be replaced.

Abilities:
1 - Your first skill is ridiculously overpowered. If you pretend to stun an enemy for 12.5 seconds why not make an ability that says "free kill" ?
Your buff is not just ridiculously overpowered in time length it is also a modified stun that drains mana and HP. In the sake of balance, this must be changed. I am not considered the numbers (I think about variables) but you really should nerf that skill.
If you want to drain mana and deal damage with it, than you must give the target a chance to escape, so it avoid being a "locked watcher". A locked watcher players is someone who sees his hero permanently stunned and he simply stops playing the game and watches his hero being killed. People hate when this happens in Dota, in HoN and it is even a problem in WoW, which reveals poor design.
To fix this ability, you should remove some effects. It is OK if you prevent the target from moving, but if you do so, then you should allow him to cast spells and to attack you -> don't forget he will be losing mana and taking damage. If you want the enemy to be silenced, then you should slow him instead of stopping him and so on.

2 - The second skill is an OK skill. Though it may work against someone very very noob, you will never be able to call the attention of a player who knows how to play. In HoN (per exmaple) players use illusions to lure enemies into traps. When I see a hero, I attack that hero and I test him. If he takes too much damage it's because he is an illusion, and if he can't kill creeps it's because he is an illusion.What is this supposed to mean? That your invis trick will not fool anyone decent. You need to boost the ability. In AoS, a great way of making an illusion sound real is to play exactly like a player who fears an enemy plays - you avoid all incoming damage and you only attack to make a killing blow (last hit). If you want your illusion to lure the enemy, then the illusion should deal X% of your total damage. The X% should only be enough to make a last hit or to kill a weak creep. This way enemies will think you are the real hero instead of an illusion while you can back-stab them all you want.

3 - Another overpowered ability. You don't simply cause innitial damage, you also make damage over time, slow the enemy, and reduce his armour. You need to remove some buffs. Having in mind you are already trapping the enemy with your first skill (making him unable to move) I suggest you remove the slow. The initial damage is OK and the armour reduction too, but the damage over time needs to be either replaced or removed.

4 - The ultimate. I can't think of something more useless in an AOS then an spell like this. It is, again, another ability that will trick noobs but it will be useless against any decent player. Let's make up a scenario: you are fighting debode hero and then when he is red HP he playes the death animation. You are all happy, you think you killed the enemy, but then you read the chat messages to see the amount of gold you earned and the assists your teammates got and you see nothing ... no chat message is displayed ... because the target is using ulti is he is still alive ... What now? Finish him off with an AOE, and go home.
This is a very bad spell IMO. It forces the enemy team to have an AOE spell, and if you want it to be decent, you need to attach the spell to the death system, which will be changing and evolving a lot. This is defiantly not a good idea, even if you play the kill message the players on the other team will check for gold earned and they will see 0 income (unless you want to give them gold for faking your death !? Bad idea ...). This ultimate doesn't even need an item to be countered, it only needs someone who is able to read a chat.

Let's make up a scenario with your current ulti. You see an enemy, and so you go in the forest and gank him. You throw the net and you stop the enemy from running. Then you use your 3rd skill and he takes extra damage. Now you just want to finish him ASAP. However, the enemy team arrives and ganks your team and what do you do? You fake a death ... When the clash is over, the enemies will make sure you are dead ... and then you really get dead. It is bad for 2 reasons: you could've used the escaped mechanism in ability 2 to escape as well and you could have killed the victim and runned away if you had an ultimate that could grant you superior attack power.

Overall conclusion, it fools the noobs, not the decent players so it will never be picked in advanced games. It also brings problems to the implementation of the map. I strongly recommend you to remove this ability or at least make it better.
Having in mind your hero is another perfect ganker / single killer I suggest some sort of boost (since you already have an escape mechanism with ability 2) to the attack speed or some sort of slowing ability (having in mind you should remove the slow from skill 3).

Your hero really needs a change on the overall concept. I hope you make some more modifications in order to make it more balanced. No spell should apply more than 3 buffs to an unit. When you pass the number 3, you risk being overpowered or even worst, you force synergy and players don't like that.
 
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Actually, fake death can be done pretty easily.


You just have to not let units really die. When they are about to take fatal damage, you block it, trigger all the death stuff, and recycle those units.

( Chaos can be used to change unit type, but for AoS thats probably not needed. )

This way, by "triggering" all death stuff, you could control thingies better, and easily make a real cheat death spells.


I think Moyack has this Damage Detection + Unit recycling template somewhere in wc3c.net It was originally created to prevent unit takes damage -event leaks.
 
You just have to not let units really die. When they are about to take fatal damage, you block it, trigger all the death stuff, and recycle those units.
You think I don't know this already? I do. But again, all it takes is someone that knows how to read the chat and your fun is over.
If you want the chat message to appear, you will need to ask the death system to do, which will mess it up. And even if the death message appears, players will keep an eye on gold. There is just no simple way of making this idea work properly. And what about the multiboard with the kills and assists ?Are you think about that too? Even if you don't check the gold, you will check the board and it will be even easier.
This is totally a "no go" ability. It is awesome in single player maps and RPG's, but on multiplayer it is a terrible idea in this current style of Map.

I am familiar with Moyack's damage + recycling system, but there are better alternatives." Merging a damage system with a recycling system brings more problems than simply dealing with a damage system " by Rising_Dusk. It is on a thread in wc3c.
 
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Thanks a lot, Flame_Phoenix. ^^
Fixed it up... Now, it seems you misunderstood some stuff about the hero...

1 - Your first skill is ridiculously overpowered. If you pretend to stun an enemy for 12.5 seconds why not make an ability that says "free kill" ?
Your buff is not just ridiculously overpowered in time length it is also a modified stun that drains mana and HP. In the sake of balance, this must be changed. I am not considered the numbers (I think about variables) but you really should nerf that skill.
If you want to drain mana and deal damage with it, than you must give the target a chance to escape, so it avoid being a "locked watcher". A locked watcher players is someone who sees his hero permanently stunned and he simply stops playing the game and watches his hero being killed. People hate when this happens in Dota, in HoN and it is even a problem in WoW, which reveals poor design.
To fix this ability, you should remove some effects. It is OK if you prevent the target from moving, but if you do so, then you should allow him to cast spells and to attack you -> don't forget he will be losing mana and taking damage. If you want the enemy to be silenced, then you should slow him instead of stopping him and so on.

Fixed. :p

2 - The second skill is an OK skill. Though it may work against someone very very noob, you will never be able to call the attention of a player who knows how to play. In HoN (per exmaple) players use illusions to lure enemies into traps. When I see a hero, I attack that hero and I test him. If he takes too much damage it's because he is an illusion, and if he can't kill creeps it's because he is an illusion.What is this supposed to mean? That your invis trick will not fool anyone decent. You need to boost the ability. In AoS, a great way of making an illusion sound real is to play exactly like a player who fears an enemy plays - you avoid all incoming damage and you only attack to make a killing blow (last hit). If you want your illusion to lure the enemy, then the illusion should deal X% of your total damage. The X% should only be enough to make a last hit or to kill a weak creep. This way enemies will think you are the real hero instead of an illusion while you can back-stab them all you want.

The whole point of the spell is to trick the enemy, but only for long enough for you to either escape or backstab him. The illusion is SUPPOSED to be useless. Since what I planned is that the "blink" and "mirror image" SFX are only visible to the player or to the players allies, it SHOULD trick an enemy to go ahead and attack the illusion. Basically it is something like this... The Hero(Debode) spots an enemy hero, he comes up near the enemy, causing the enemy to attack him. The hero then uses the skill to teleport right behind the enemy. The enemy is still going to attack the illusion, but before\when he does the hero backstabs the enemy and proceeds to kill him(trap, strike etc). Or in another scenario, a strong enemy attacks the hero, when the hero is low on health so he uses the skill to teleport away. Instead of immediately proceeding to chase the hero, attempting to strike at him when his invisibility ends or so, he will attack the illusion because no visible graphic change has happened; the illusion looks like the hero, there was no "mirror image" graphic, no nothing, and thus the illusion buys time for the hero to escape.

3 - Another overpowered ability. You don't simply cause innitial damage, you also make damage over time, slow the enemy, and reduce his armour. You need to remove some buffs. Having in mind you are already trapping the enemy with your first skill (making him unable to move) I suggest you remove the slow. The initial damage is OK and the armour reduction too, but the damage over time needs to be either replaced or removed.

Fixed... I hope.

4 - The ultimate. I can't think of something more useless in an AOS then an spell like this. It is, again, another ability that will trick noobs but it will be useless against any decent player. Let's make up a scenario: you are fighting debode hero and then when he is red HP he playes the death animation. You are all happy, you think you killed the enemy, but then you read the chat messages to see the amount of gold you earned and the assists your teammates got and you see nothing ... no chat message is displayed ... because the target is using ulti is he is still alive ... What now? Finish him off with an AOE, and go home.
This is a very bad spell IMO. It forces the enemy team to have an AOE spell, and if you want it to be decent, you need to attach the spell to the death system, which will be changing and evolving a lot. This is defiantly not a good idea, even if you play the kill message the players on the other team will check for gold earned and they will see 0 income (unless you want to give them gold for faking your death !? Bad idea ...). This ultimate doesn't even need an item to be countered, it only needs someone who is able to read a chat.

Let's make up a scenario with your current ulti. You see an enemy, and so you go in the forest and gank him. You throw the net and you stop the enemy from running. Then you use your 3rd skill and he takes extra damage. Now you just want to finish him ASAP. However, the enemy team arrives and ganks your team and what do you do? You fake a death ... When the clash is over, the enemies will make sure you are dead ... and then you really get dead. It is bad for 2 reasons: you could've used the escaped mechanism in ability 2 to escape as well and you could have killed the victim and runned away if you had an ultimate that could grant you superior attack power.

Overall conclusion, it fools the noobs, not the decent players so it will never be picked in advanced games. It also brings problems to the implementation of the map. I strongly recommend you to remove this ability or at least make it better.
Having in mind your hero is another perfect ganker / single killer I suggest some sort of boost (since you already have an escape mechanism with ability 2) to the attack speed or some sort of slowing ability (having in mind you should remove the slow from skill 3).

Completely redid the ultimate; hope it's satisfactory.

I imagine the hero as some sort of a Demon Hunter\Blademaster merge. Good at taking down single targets(heroes), but also very good against spellcasters.
 
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Well, for the sake of modularity, Id not merge them either.

And if everything that happens of death, is triggered, along the messages and gold bounties, you can pretty easily fake it all and make a perfect cheat death ability. ( Just requires some scripting that player, for example, cant use more gold than he is supposed to really have, because gold interface cant really be modified, without really giving them gold. )


Anyways, I dont really see it as a problem. You could pretty easily make a spell, where unit evades lethal damage, creates some dummy for playing death animation, triggers all the kill stuff that can be triggered, and the real hero gains some invisibility and escapes from the scene.

Shit. You can even edit kill/death multiboard values locally, so that enemy team sees wrong numbers for X seconds or something.

edit. Youd have to do some triggering, though, to get all the onDeath effects to only play visual stuff, but not real effects.

You are kinda right. It totally depends on whatkind of other spells you make. Basic stuff should be easy,though. You should be able to create someknd of cheat death spell, that looks so real that it distracts enemies usually. ( Unless in some cases where some other spell fucks the illusion up, but anyways, if its in middle of the fight you dont neccesarily notice it. )
 
flame_phoenix, you could work as hero concept reviewer for it.

what do you think?

you could even review mine if you want to. :p
Concept reviewer ?
Never thought of that to be honest, I was just trying to help people and the project. Well, sure I guess.
But you will have to wait for your hero, Xerxes sent me a PM and he is 1st on the list.

debode: I am just making a quick visit, I will check the changes you made very soon.

Viikuna: it is risky to make a spell that will affect the respawn system, kill / assist system, multiboard system and caravan system without having those system ready, operational and defined.

M0rbid: I will check your concept later as well. I already found some flaws :p
 
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Ok ... I have lot's of things to say so ... let's start with m0rbid, my first client :p

M0rbid hero

Changes: I like the overall new tactical line of the hero. It is so simple and direct that it risks being OP, but we can change that with some balance tweaks. I really think people are going to like your hero once it is done. Why? Let's think on some tactis:
- You can initiate with jump, and use ulti. After that everyone will focus you (because you are an initiator) but there is no problem because you will suck their life and make them easier to kill. When the enemy tries to escape from the field, you push him back. All 4 skills perfectly tuned.
- You can also push the enemy back to you, and ultimate him after. This way you are being a strong ganker, slowing the enemy and protecting your team from enemy fire (including tower fire). If the enemy outruns you, you can catch him by jumping.

You wanted a single killer, and you got a lot more than that.

Skills:
1 - This skill is quite nice and will help you and your team to finish enemies faster. However this skill is unbalanced. Why? Let's make an example: Imagine that you jump into a battle, and you are surrounded by 6 units (not hard to achieve). You then use the ability and you gain ... 75 * 6 = 450 HP, from a skill that is not an ultimate. There are several ways of balancing this skill:
1.1 - reduce the damage dealt and hp gained
1.2 - apply my suggestion for the spell (present in my last post)
1.3 - Handicap the ability. All enemy units near the hero will take 75 damage, BUT the hero can only be healed by a max of 300 HP (per example).

As for the armor, I suggest you make the reduction a little bit smaller. 15 armor is a lot and to prevent Beta testers from having this issue I advise a max value between 7 and 10.

2 - I don't understand the tooltips. It gives me the idea that your spell is channelled, when it is not. I would recommend something like this:
Level L - Pulls the enemy target from a maximum distance of X. The manacost is D(distance) * K(constant) and it stuns the enemy unit for D * C(a different constant. I suggest you make the stun depend on the distance of the unit. Close units to the hero have a small C value, while units far away have a big C value).

3 - Reduce the duration of the stun. No stun should ever be greater than 3 seconds. Also, what if you land on the top of an enemy unit? You just share your collision size with it? I had a spell like this, and to solve it I decided to show an error message saying "Cannot jump in that place". You can also knockback the units you land on, however if you do it, it must be a very small knockback because we don't want to help the target running from you, we want to kill him.

4 - well, the ultimate description has several typos. It should say something like:
The Sith Lord uses his force to slow all his enemies in a range of 700 by casting a force field. Enemy ranged attacks that hit the outside of the field return to the attacker, dealing half damage. Spells that are cast from outside into the inside of the field are blocked.

You also speak of "frozen units" !?
The ultimate will be quite powerful as it is right now, making you a fearsome enemy. Empowering your abilities even more may not be a good idea. This ultimate will force the enemy team to retreat or it will force the enemy team to enter the force field. Ultimately you could add something like: Units that pass the force field are knocked back (thus preventing the enemy from leaving it or entering it) but this would be totally unbalanced, as it would separate teams without giving them a chance to retaliate.
Btw, you should also let us know how much slow the enemies will get.

Now, you need to get some pretty icons like Debode did (since I don't have wc3 installed I can't help you with it) and remember that the team will give priority to heroes that don't use imported icons and to heroes that use hidden content (iirc).
After fixing this issues, is time to search for some FX models, and I have some in mind.
Still, everything with time, you have work to do before that.


Debode hero

OK, I like the changes on the first look. Let's see it now.

Abilities:
1 - It is definitely better. However in fast passed games like in HoN / Dota, 6 seconds slow without moving means death. To fix this problem HoN has a maximum "trap" duration of 3.75 seconds (and so does Dota iirc) but the stuns are channelled. Having in mind we don't want the ability channelled, I suggest you reduce the maximum duration to 3 seconds. AoS games are won using burst damage, 3 seconds is more than enough for a gank and for a kill. As for mana regeneration I believe you mean that "the hero loses mana over time" which is OK because if his allies de buff the enemy he will still have mana.

2 - I am happy to see you liked the "lament" icon. As for the ability itself ... I am almost sure that trolls can't blink. My suggestion? Make him jump using a frontflip or backflip. It is just a suggestion for the lore, (troll have a front flip animation iirc) so it is nicer. This suggestion however has all the cons a jump ability have (it is not instant like a blink, and when you land you need to check the collision size). Also, the 1.5 attack bonus should not be static. To encourage people using it should evolve with the level of the ability (level1 gives 0.3 bonus damage, level2 gives 0.6, lv3 gives 0.9, lv4 gives 1.1 and lv5 gives 1.4 -> remember that with 1.4 extra damage you are dealing 140% bonus damage, which is more than twice of your attack. You should also lower the numbers).

3 - Good to see you have a nice axe not imported icon. As for the ability, it was nerfed but it is still to strong. Let's see, you deal 150 bonus damage then you apply -6 bonus armor. Then your target will take 25*15 = 375 damage over time (which can be amplified by the -6 armour), make a total of 525 damage + amplified damage. This is extremely high for any unit. My suggestion? Remove the damage over time, 150 damage plus -6 armour plus having in consideration your other skills, is more than enough to kill an enemy.
Suggestion? Well, you could do something like "It makes a flurry of X attack". Basically, your hero would gain X% bonus attack speed for Y number of attacks (that stack with the ultimate btw). All attacks deal normal damage. This technique is used in single player RPG's (like dragon age) and it is designed to kill enemy units ASAP.

4 - The icon is simply beautiful, a very good choice for an imported icon. As for the ability itself, there is no doubt it is overpowered. You should reduce the bonus speed to 200% max (because in wc3 units can not go beyond 522 movement speed). Having in consideration that you will also be taking an extreme amount of extra damage, I suppose that balances the ability.
Now, the thing with this ability is that sometime you will not want it activated for 30 seconds, but for less. Instead of being an instant ability, you should allow the player to deactivate it whenever he wants. You can use immolation spell to achieve this and turn the ability into a mana draining ability. Another suggestion is to make this ability "sustained" ( I plan using this on some heroes). What is a sustained ability? Well, I will explain the difference between draining abilities and sustained. A draning ability drains your mana over time. A sustained ability simply reduces the total amount of mana available to use. If you have 1000 mana, using a sustained ability that costs 200 mana, will make your MAX mana pool be 800 instead of 1000. When you deactivate the ability your pool grows back to 1000 again.
Although you don't have as much mana to use, you won't lose it that fast either.

You also need to add cooldowns to your abilities Debode. And please, if you update your concept, post a link on this thread like M0rbid does. It makes my job a lot easier.

Few ... now this was a big post ... I need to go now, cya guys.

EDIT EDIT EDIT

Hey Pheonix, I know my concept isn't finished as I still don't have a bio for it, but could you review my spells so far?
If Septimus promotes me I will have little choice. however, in the meantime, I am sorry but I can't do it. I have to finish helping m0rbid and debode, and then I still have xerxes and septimus on the list. You will have to wait a few days for your turn.


EDIT EDIT EDIT

Add more suggestions to debode's hero in skill 3.
 
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Level 8
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451
Viikuna: it is risky to make a spell that will affect the respawn system, kill / assist system, multiboard system and caravan system without having those system ready, operational and defined.

Can do nothing but agree. Its currently much too early post any final spell ideas. We need more data about game mechanics and systems..

Yet it doesnt hurt to throw some cool spell ideas around, even if they turn out to be impossible to make in the end. Brainstorming is cool. As long as you dont forget that your hero spells most likely will not be similiar to the ideas you posted.

( Thats why I keep talking about doing Hero concepts. You want to create an idea, a character. )
 
Yet it doesnt hurt to throw some cool spell ideas around, even if they turn out to be impossible to make in the end.
Ya, it doesn't hurt. However, I want (and I think the owners of the heroes also want) to see their hero implemented correctly one day. It is good to know what you can expect of the implementation. We could all make impossible and awesome concepts, but in the end they would not be implemented and so the owners would be sad.

Back to business, debode, I just had another idea for your ulti. It is a draining ability. Your hero has all the bonuses you decided earlier, however he will loose X mana per second while the ability is active. To balance this, he will actually steal X/2 mana every time he attacks an enemy with mana. This way, as long as you are fighting you will always have enough mana to keep your ultimate. Even better, you can turn it ON or OFF any time you want (well, the ability also needs a cooldown ofc, but that is for later). What do you think?
 
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We could all make impossible and awesome concepts, but in the end they would not be implemented and so the owners would be sad.

Its other way around actually.

By concept, I mean heros style, whatkind of character he/she/it is, whats the fightning style, is there any magic powers, if there is, what kind of magic, and stuff like that.

Even if some of your spell ideas is impossible to make, the Hero still exists and you can easily create some other fitting spell for him. Even if you change his/her/its abilities, he is still a same guy or girl or creature or whatever.

If your hero is only bunch of abilities throw together, then it really hurts when some spell cant be done for some reason.
 
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1 - It is definitely better. However in fast passed games like in HoN / Dota, 6 seconds slow without moving means death. To fix this problem HoN has a maximum "trap" duration of 3.75 seconds (and so does Dota iirc) but the stuns are channelled. Having in mind we don't want the ability channelled, I suggest you reduce the maximum duration to 3 seconds. AoS games are won using burst damage, 3 seconds is more than enough for a gank and for a kill. As for mana regeneration I believe you mean that "the hero loses mana over time" which is OK because if his allies de buff the enemy he will still have mana.

Well. Keep in mind that the skill is 50% useless against ranged heroes, especially strong or fast ones which rely on sole damage and not a lot of abilities. Making it three seconds at most will be very underpowered in my opinion... Besides, the numbers will be fixed and balanced with the map. It does not matter anyways.
As for the mana regeneration the buff; when you have a negative value of mana\health regeneration, you lose mana\health per second. If the hero has skills\items that boost his mana regeneration by enough to overcome the debuff, he wont lose any mana, but it will slow down his mana regenartion. Anyways, what do you think about "to break free, the net must be broken" kind of thing? Each level increases the hitpoints and armor(?) of the net. So the net is an actual unit. Instead of "6 seconds until you break free" it's "net has 500 hitpoints and 2 Medium armor", for example.


2 - I am happy to see you liked the "lament" icon. As for the ability itself ... I am almost sure that trolls can't blink. My suggestion? Make him jump using a frontflip or backflip. It is just a suggestion for the lore, (troll have a front flip animation iirc) so it is nicer. This suggestion however has all the cons a jump ability have (it is not instant like a blink, and when you land you need to check the collision size). Also, the 1.5 attack bonus should not be static. To encourage people using it should evolve with the level of the ability (level1 gives 0.3 bonus damage, level2 gives 0.6, lv3 gives 0.9, lv4 gives 1.1 and lv5 gives 1.4 -> remember that with 1.4 extra damage you are dealing 140% bonus damage, which is more than twice of your attack. You should also lower the numbers).

Yeah well, it's unusual for me to say something like that, but at the moment I don't care too much for lore reasoning, ESPECIALLY since the map is a community-based map. It doesn't makes much sense that a Terran Marine, a Sith Lord and an Amani Warlord fight together either. :p
As for the damage bonus... The main functionality, and the main 'focus' of the spell is not about damage. This is why I've decided to NOT improve the damage with each level, not to mention that it will be too much "variable" effects. Also, I suppose that I was thinking about dealing 150% damage, not 150% BONUS damage. :p
So, it is only a 50% bonus to damage.

3 - Good to see you have a nice axe not imported icon. As for the ability, it was nerfed but it is still to strong. Let's see, you deal 150 bonus damage then you apply -6 bonus armor. Then your target will take 25*15 = 375 damage over time (which can be amplified by the -6 armour), make a total of 525 damage + amplified damage. This is extremely high for any unit. My suggestion? Remove the damage over time, 150 damage plus -6 armour plus having in consideration your other skills, is more than enough to kill an enemy.
Suggestion? Well, you could do something like "It makes a flurry of X attack". Basically, your hero would gain X% bonus attack speed for Y number of attacks (that stack with the ultimate btw). All attacks deal normal damage. This technique is used in single player RPG's (like dragon age) and it is designed to kill enemy units ASAP.

The damage is not supposed to scale with the armor of the enemy(it ignores armor, like poison). Also, think about it... It deals 150 damage immediately which should be about two normal attacks at max level, and then 375 damage... During 15 seconds. :p
It is about as useless as a healing salve in battle. Think about it. 15 seconds is a lot of time. In that time he could drink a potion, run away, get help, or even kill the hero. This is why the armor reduction is large, and initial damage is low.

4 - The icon is simply beautiful, a very good choice for an imported icon. As for the ability itself, there is no doubt it is overpowered. You should reduce the bonus speed to 200% max (because in wc3 units can not go beyond 522 movement speed). Having in consideration that you will also be taking an extreme amount of extra damage, I suppose that balances the ability.
Now, the thing with this ability is that sometime you will not want it activated for 30 seconds, but for less. Instead of being an instant ability, you should allow the player to deactivate it whenever he wants. You can use immolation spell to achieve this and turn the ability into a mana draining ability. Another suggestion is to make this ability "sustained" ( I plan using this on some heroes). What is a sustained ability? Well, I will explain the difference between draining abilities and sustained. A draning ability drains your mana over time. A sustained ability simply reduces the total amount of mana available to use. If you have 1000 mana, using a sustained ability that costs 200 mana, will make your MAX mana pool be 800 instead of 1000. When you deactivate the ability your pool grows back to 1000 again.
Although you don't have as much mana to use, you won't lose it that fast either.

Okay, hmm. I didn't think about it, but again, it seems like you misunderstood me. When I say, for example, "increases damage by 200%" I actually mean "deals 200% damage". You only actually get 150% bonus damage... Yeah. :p
I'm sorry for misunderstanding. Now, as for it being overpowered, as you said, the "enemies deal 150%\135%\120% damage to the hero" kinda balances it, imo. As for how long it should be activated... The Jungle Troll Berserker's "Berserk" skill is very similar and is my main inspiration here. The damage the Troll receives should not matter, because the bonuses balance it out. You attack much faster and you can run faster if you're low on health. Think about it. :p
Personally I don't want to change much. I like it as it is really. But thank you very much for your time and reviews. I'll add cooldowns later, I guess. Also don't forget numbers never matter, they will change everything later. You might as well noticed that many heroes are overpowered or underpowered because of the high\low numbers in comparsion to other heroes with lower\higher numbers(Ultimate damage: 100 versus Normal Skill damage: 250, for example :p).

Also, do you mind reviewing FrIkY's concept as well? As it is I who wrote it for him, it would be nice to hear if anything has to be improved(you can ask him if I wrote it for him if you don't believe me).
 
@Debode:
1 - You are ranged hero, the ability will never useless 50%. In HoN ranged heroes with stuns are extremely powerful, and your hero is one of those "everyone wants to play" type of hero. 3 seconds will do, I assure you. If it is your wish to give some trouble to the Beta testers, gl then :p
I like the idea of the net being killed. It could depend on the number of attacks. Per example, the net dies after 4 attacks.

2 - Lore ... you got me there ...Well, even if it's not about damage, I am sure players would appreciate a small upgrade to the ability. Just an opinion.

3- I still think you should replace the damage over time by the "Flurry" attack. It will be more balanced a lot more useful IMO. Also, having in mind the "flurry" would stack with the ultimate bonus attack speed and mana steal, it would be awesome. This ability could improve the hero to a new level. My suggestion helps you explore your attack power (from the hero) and helps you explore the mana steal function from the ultimate as well. Think about it. Your damage over time helps you explore .. well .. nothing ... and it gets useless in late game, while my suggestion is never useless.

4 - Debode, you missed 1 suggestion:
Back to business, debode, I just had another idea for your ulti. It is a draining ability. Your hero has all the bonuses you decided earlier, however he will loose X mana per second while the ability is active. To balance this, he will actually steal X/2 mana every time he attacks an enemy with mana. This way, as long as you are fighting you will always have enough mana to keep your ultimate. Even better, you can turn it ON or OFF any time you want (well, the ability also needs a cooldown ofc, but that is for later). What do you think?
Together with the "Flurry Attack" idea it would simply drain all mana a caster has in a few seconds.

Also, do you mind reviewing FrIkY's concept as well? As it is I who wrote it for him, it would be nice to hear if anything has to be improved(you can ask him if I wrote it for him if you don't believe me).
I will put him on my list after Xerxes, Septimus and Werewulf.
 
Level 49
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Flaming_Phoenix, thanks again.

1 - You are ranged hero, the ability will never useless 50%. In HoN ranged heroes with stuns are extremely powerful, and your hero is one of those "everyone wants to play" type of hero. 3 seconds will do, I assure you. If it is your wish to give some trouble to the Beta testers, gl then :p

What I meant is, capturing a ranged hero will be mostly useless because units can still attack while trapped inside the net.

3- I still think you should replace the damage over time by the "Flurry" attack. It will be more balanced a lot more useful IMO. Also, having in mind the "flurry" would stack with the ultimate bonus attack speed and mana steal, it would be awesome. This ability could improve the hero to a new level. My suggestion helps you explore your attack power (from the hero) and helps you explore the mana steal function from the ultimate as well. Think about it. Your damage over time helps you explore .. well .. nothing ... and it gets useless in late game, while my suggestion is never useless.

Meh, it will make him too much of a speed-freak, most of his skills are, in fact, speed\escape(Net which disables an enemy's movement\speed(>.>), the leap which lets you escape, the ultimate which boosts speed and your suggestion, meh :p) related...

Back to business, debode, I just had another idea for your ulti. It is a draining ability. Your hero has all the bonuses you decided earlier, however he will loose X mana per second while the ability is active. To balance this, he will actually steal X/2 mana every time he attacks an enemy with mana. This way, as long as you are fighting you will always have enough mana to keep your ultimate. Even better, you can turn it ON or OFF any time you want (well, the ability also needs a cooldown ofc, but that is for later). What do you think?

I still kinda like the old ultimate for the reasons I explained. :p

Together with the "Flurry Attack" idea it would simply drain all mana a caster has in a few seconds.

Sounds a little... Overepowered, don't you think? :p
He should be good against spellcasters but he shouldn't drain all the mana of the unit in a few seconds. :p

I'll change stuff later if I find it right, of course, and don't forget that most of those abilities will most likely look NOTHING like they are no when implemented, it all depends on the developers.
 
What I meant is, capturing a ranged hero will be mostly useless because units can still attack while trapped inside the net.
Keep in mind that:
1- he can't run nor move
2 - he can't cast spells
3 - he loses mana over time

it doens't sound useless to me :p
As for the net, I think it should die after X attacks. This way it doesn't matter how strong or overpowered the enemy hero is, he still has to attack 4 times and you can explore this. Giving the net HP points makes it weaker in late game, while giving it X attack lifes will make it a constant factor, easy to balance and useful from start to end game.

Meh, it will make him too much of a speed-freak
Well, Your ulitmate makes your hero a speed freak. Why not take advantage of that?
Did I mention that the "Flurry" will also explore the -6 armor bonus the unit has? :D
Sounds a little... Overepowered, don't you think? :p
Not really. It's just a few attacks (3 or 4) and, as you say, the number can be left for the beta testers :p
If you don't like draining mana then you should make your ultimate weaker, because that's what's going to happen either way. You are just delaying the inevitable (as Agent Smith would say :p).
I'll change stuff later if I find it right, of course, and don't forget that most of those abilities will most likely look NOTHING like they are no when implemented, it all depends on the developers.
The number will change, yes. But the ability concept will remain the same, which is why I am helping you exploring your tactical line in order to make the hero stronger.
 
Level 16
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2,073
Just asking something vague.
Duruka here made a Concept (LINK), and the status is currently Pending. The vague thing is, he joined December 2009. Won't it be strange to include a not-well-known member to the map?
 
Anyways, just because he's not some hugely known person doesn't mean he wont become one.
There are priorities. The people who deserve a hero will be chosen first. He doesn't deserve one, nor does he care.

Debode and m0rbid are taking too long to answer, I will move to my next reviews: Xerxes and Septimus. After that is WherewolfTherewolf and debode's friend.
 
Level 25
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Messages
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Could use comments on my hero concept.

The only thing i think debuffing atm is his Warlord's Battlefury since it increases his damage output by a high amount.

Other than that i dunno the issue, he needs to actually hit you and be near you to inflict damage which can be shut down with disables or evasion =\

EDIT:

The 1st skill could get rebalanced damage wise, making lvl 5 deal 170 physical damage instead of magic.

Also all his skills require you to actually be near him :3
 
M0rbid:
I am waiting your updates.

Debode:
Looks like Xarwin made a few comments .. let's see them.
COMMENTS: The hero is good enough for an approval however it feels like you lack some connection through your spells. The combination is good but how can a troll teleport :D?
Now, I am not the guys that says "I told you so" but ... oh screw it, "I told you so!!!"
I suggest we turn it into a "slide/dash" effect which makes it more awesome.
I actually don't get his point here. I will try talking to him later.
Now lets see some FX.

1 - Having in mind you will be throwing a net which will be a projectile (everything must be a projectile object so Anachron's system can work properly, even the missiles your hero will throw) and having in mind that projectiles can have effects attached... I suggest you should use the NET model with this nature FX:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...issile-53663/?prev=search=missile&d=list&r=20

Sure it makes the net flashy, but hey, it's nice and green, just like a troll !

2 - I didn't find anything decent for this blink ability. You suggest you use the illusion FX, the blink FX or the NE small Building Death FX. You can also use the fire blink:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/fire-blink-65885/?prev=search=blink&d=list&r=20

3 - Having in mind you will be throwing an axe (remember the icon!) I suggest you use this missile for the projectile:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...58801/?prev=search=missile&r=20&d=list&page=2

I don't know if it will be worth it however, since the missile can fly too fast for people to notice the FX.

4 - You will be attacking an running like a lunatic, so I suggest you either use the bloodlust effect or the "rage effect" of the trolls as attachments to your feet, hands and weapon. If you don't like them, you can also use this one:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...?prev=search=red%20missile&r=20&d=list&page=2

EDIT EDIT EDIT


Xerex:
Ok, At first I thought I would see an int support hero but now I see you are more of a early game powerful damage hero. Let's see how I can help.

Overall review:
The first skill is quite nice, it basically prevents the enemy from regenerating HP and decreases the effect of healing on him. Your second skill deals damage and burns mana, however it is the only decent damage dealing skill you have. I suggest you make a sinergy between skills 1 and 2. Per example, if you cast spell 2 on a unit with spell 1, the units takes extra damage or gets a special effect effect like a slow. If you cast an ulti in a unit with spell 1, the unit can also get some sort of amplification (like healing spells damage the unit for 10% instead of healing it) or it can amplify the ultimate damage.
IMO what lacks in your hero is a good use for skills 1 and 3. You can fix skill 1 with awesome synergy ideas (which I thin really fit and will really help your hero), however I am not sure for skill 3. Your hero is a hero that relies strongly and that is heavily dependant on magic damage, however this passive skill upgrades his normal / physical damage which doesn't help nor stacks with the other abilities.
I suggest something else, something that boots your magical damage (because if your ulti decreases magical armour, why not take advantage of that?) like an ability that adds X bonus magic to your attack where X is D(number of dead people or bodies) * C (constant). This ability could be an orb ability, or a sustained ability (I really think this would be the best) (PS, sustained abilities are NOT like immolation, are different).
Your ultimate is nice and I think that with my suggestions it will definitely help improve your hero.

What do you think?
 
Last edited:
Level 19
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Messages
2,165
You guys are commenting stuff way too much.
The project seriously starts to lack the point at which I want to get.

Everything is being discussed out way too far and massive idea's are storming in (though, I appreciate the feedback).
The map requires beta heroes, items, concepts, .. etc.
I will make a post which drastically takes away these strong lines.
 
Last edited:
Level 49
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
8,421
1 - Having in mind you will be throwing a net which will be a projectile (everything must be a projectile object so Anachron's system can work properly, even the missiles your hero will throw) and having in mind that projectiles can have effects attached... I suggest you should use the NET model with this nature FX:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...issile-53663/?prev=search=missile&d=list&r=20

Sure it makes the net flashy, but hey, it's nice and green, just like a troll !

2 - I didn't find anything decent for this blink ability. You suggest you use the illusion FX, the blink FX or the NE small Building Death FX. You can also use the fire blink:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/fire-blink-65885/?prev=search=blink&d=list&r=20

3 - Having in mind you will be throwing an axe (remember the icon!) I suggest you use this missile for the projectile:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...58801/?prev=search=missile&r=20&d=list&page=2

I don't know if it will be worth it however, since the missile can fly too fast for people to notice the FX.

4 - You will be attacking an running like a lunatic, so I suggest you either use the bloodlust effect or the "rage effect" of the trolls as attachments to your feet, hands and weapon. If you don't like them, you can also use this one:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...?prev=search=red%20missile&r=20&d=list&page=2

Meh, I like the SFX I've chosen and importing models will take too much file size. :p
 
Level 23
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Messages
1,907
You guys are commenting stuff way too much.
The project seriously starts to lack the point at which I want to get.

Everything is being discussed out way too far and massive idea's are storming in (though, I appreciate the feedback).
The map requires beta heroes, items, concepts, .. etc.
I will make a post which drastically takes away these strong lines.

I totally agree with you. If you take a look at the item and idea's thread it's way to hard to go along with all those - really awesome - ideas and suggestions. Of course it should be an aim of the project to get a perfect result. But the perfect result will not result from only posting thousands of ideas in the threads, but by testing and starting off with some basic ideas. What I can see in the threads is just toooo awesome and professionell for a start off.
Noone can build up a skyscraper starting off with the top and forgetting the base. Before we start building floor 101 we should first start off with the base.
Which means we need some excact basic ideas and some heroes now!
 
Noone can build up a skyscraper starting off with the top and forgetting the base. Before we start building floor 101 we should first start off with the base.
We are building the bases, that's my point. I already said 100 times we need a item system specification, however people keep ignoring me and Dash and so they only suggest skyscrapers without even know how the bases function.
As for this thread, everything has a base: Anahcrons projectile system and ADamage. The only reason I am helping you and your heroes is because I (and Viikuna) know the bases and so we can help you make awesome heroes out of it. Your hero (M0rbid) is an awesome hero BUT it has all the bases it needs. Xarwin could implement it right away.
Debode's hero is the same thing, it can be implemented with no delay and the same for xerex's hero (which is a little bit harder).

If you want basic ideas, go ahead and make shit spells like a modified crappy spells from the editor, like Diablo 3 Wacraft3 has and mix them with GUI basic skills.
If it depends on me, the project will have decent spells, but because it doesn't depend on me I guess I don't really care.
 
Level 23
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Messages
1,907
My intention with my previous post wasn't that I wanted to say, that we should change all spells to very easy and boring spells. No, I really appreciate the way you help us with making up our heroes. But on the other hand I think you have to admit, that it is very hard to keep track with all the ideas and things that are posted in the threads around the map.
The Terrain is finished, only the bases need to be done, but if you look to the other things, it's quite hard to tell how the rest of the map will work. Of course we have alll the awesome systems, but we have thousands of ideas how to use them, but nearly all these ideas are thrown into the threads randomly and aren't finished and ready to implement. That's my point. We need to think more of those basic gameplay ideas for now, so we can start aiming for alpha and beta maps!
 
But on the other hand I think you have to admit, that it is very hard to keep track with all the ideas and things that are posted in the threads around the map.
That has always been a problem. Besides, I always divide my posts into sections so the users (like you) know which part to read, thus organizing ideas.
Besides that, there are only 2 people posting feedback (me and Septimus), everyone else is simply ignoring this thread. The ideas and feedback you receive is, therefore, limited.
Of course we have alll the awesome systems, but we have thousands of ideas how to use them, but nearly all these ideas are thrown into the threads randomly and aren't finished and ready to implement.
Your hero and debode's hero are ready to implement. I was helping you perfecting your ideas for a better implementation.
What I mean is that we do have ideas ready for implementation, but that doesn't mean they don't need to be polished first. This thread is for the polishing process (correct me if I am wrong).
That's my point. We need to think more of those basic gameplay ideas for now, so we can start aiming for alpha and beta maps!
That's what I and Otaku Dash have been trying to do in the "Item thread" however people seem to be blind or analphabet and they just keep ignoring us and they simply post high tier super hyper mega awesome items without even knowing the basics.

I see myself as an opposite of Xarwin, I like structuring and thinking about everything while he prefers "doing things on the move", but we can never make a nice map if we don't structure and think /discuss our basic ideas (our foundations and bases for our house).

However I admit that excessive polishing is bad, but there are only 2 heroes I've been trying to polish (3 with xerex). That isn't to much IMO.
While some areas may have too much polishing, other areas most likely miss it.
 
Level 25
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That's what I and Otaku Dash have been trying to do in the "Item thread" however people seem to be blind or analphabet and they just keep ignoring us and they simply post high tier super hyper mega awesome items without even knowing the basics.

I think i didn't see Xarwin say he needs low tier items in that thread :p

He only said to avoid using +stat items since the map will be using custom stats(or i might be blind).

I was helping you perfecting your ideas for a better implementation.

True, therefore you could also help me about my hero concept(which has been aproved).

Besides that, there are only 2 people posting feedback (me and Septimus), everyone else is simply ignoring this thread. The ideas and feedback you receive is, therefore, limited.

I thought giving feedback in this thread was reserved to project members only due to the fact anyone else doesn't have a big impact on the map itself.

It would seem random if anyone could give feedback.

Then again maybe you have been refering to the other members of your team.
 
I think i didn't see Xarwin say he needs low tier items in that thread :p
OK people, this is a mess. While we do appropriate all the ideas, they are just there with very little things to work of with, like from which other items they are made..
So lets do them differently.
First we will make basic items. Weaker items that don't need a recipe, have only 1 effect and so. Consumables go in there too. We need about 45-50+ items of this type. All next posts will must be about them.
Afterwords we will make higher ones that are derive from weakest non recipe items that can be bought on start of the game.
Thank you.

In deed you are right, it wasn't Xarwin, it was HailFire. HailFire is above me in the hierarchy of the team and above anyone else (besides Xarwin) because he is making the unit ideas and controlling the item thread (correct me if I am wrong) so I just assumed it was a good idea to follow his plan.

True, therefore you could also help me about my hero concept(which has been aproved).
Xarwin gave me the idea that my suggestions were slowing the process. If this is true, then I will probably stop posting suggestions. I don't want to delay him, I just want to help.
I thought giving feedback in this thread was reserved to project members only due to the fact anyone else doesn't have a big impact on the map itself.
There are members outside the project requesting and submitting heroes. If they can do that, than any member is welcome to give suggestions. Remember however that it is only a suggestion, the owner has the right to refuse or not (like debode did to my suggestions).
 
Level 11
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Messages
2,362
Actually, I am not above anyone, only below Xarwin and Septimus (they are in charge of this sub-forum).
And that what I said, I discussed with Xarwin. And I did mean that. People just give ideas for cool powerful items. I suppose its most fun to come up with them. But we need low tier items too(although this should be discussed in idea tread).
Since I am not really a coder or anything, but just idea guy, I try to help as much as I can with steering the treads in the right direction. Doesn't seem to work too much though. So please stop bickering about stuff that are not important, and start giving constructive comments.
Thank you.

~HailFireer
 
And that what I said, I discussed with Xarwin. And I did mean that. People just give ideas for cool powerful items. I suppose its most fun to come up with them. But we need low tier items too(although this should be discussed in idea tread).
And I agree. However, how can we even make basic items IF the attribute system is not even created nor specified !? We simply can't, we need to know the base for the house.

Lore-Wolf: I don't mind helping you with that if Xarwin lets me.
 
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