Item Discussion Thread

[M0rbid]

So my suggestion would be then, transforming this thread into something like the item suggestions comment thread, where we can actually talk about the submitted items. ?!

 

[Xarwin]

Well that's a good idea.
I'll change the name.

 

[HailFireer]

Not bad items guys, but about that adamant orb. It makes no sense to be called like that if he controls time. Orbs are usually made of energy and other stuff (like fire). And why call it orb anyway. Call it a shield. It is derived from a shield so should be something like Shield of Time or so. Also, forward makes no sense to remove passive buffs, because they wouldn't disappear in near future. They newer disappear. And for timed buffs they shouldn't be canceled because after the time comes back to normal (for example take that time went 7 seconds faster, and what if buff had more 10 seconds to work. That means it should remain 3 more seconds.). And why are spell canceled. That could and will be very annoying, especially against casters. Plus I mean time went forward, so effects should have still happened. Not just disappear like they newer were meant to happen.
That stop spell would be better for reverse time, but so that cool-down is reset to 0, and spell can be cast again.

 

[dead-man-walking]

Not bad items guys, but about that adamant orb. It makes no sense to be called like that if he controls time. Orbs are usually made of energy and other stuff (like fire). And why call it orb anyway. Call it a shield. It is derived from a shield so should be something like Shield of Time or so. Also, forward makes no sense to remove passive buffs, because they wouldn't disappear in near future. They newer disappear. And for timed buffs they shouldn't be canceled because after the time comes back to normal (for example take that time went 7 seconds faster, and what if buff had more 10 seconds to work. That means it should remain 3 more seconds.). And why are spell canceled. That could and will be very annoying, especially against casters. Plus I mean time went forward, so effects should have still happened. Not just disappear like they newer were meant to happen.
That stop spell would be better for reverse time, but so that cool-down is reset to 0, and spell can be cast again.

So, sir, what did you suggest for effects?

 

[HailFireer]

Well, for forward, it would be good that it forwards all effects for few seconds like 5. So if some effect has 4 seconds more to last, it is gone, but if it has 10, it will then have 5 more seconds.
And for Reverse, you could stop all abilities, heal all units in the area for idk how much hp, and reset all cool downs of abilities used in last 5 seconds. Of course in the AoE.

 

[dead-man-walking]

Resetting Cooldown would be so Imba, especially if the caster has so much Mana and have just casted his Ultimate.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Also you need to have custom icons for items.
Common sense, you can't make so much items from the boring blizz icons.

And blizz icons are boring.

You know what's really boring!? Having to wait half an hour to download a map just because some freaking idiot decided that increasing the map size with a bunch of useless icons was a good idea.
Use Blizzard regular icons. Use Blizzard hidden icons. No imports, unless you really have a good excuse.

And doesn't matter what icon they submit. We will see if something else better can be used latter.

Actually it does matter. If you don't care about the icons they suggest then YOU will have to look for icons on YOUR OWN, thus increasing the amount of work you have to do to the project.
I understand many people don't have time for the project, so helping with something as simple as selecting your own icons for your own items seems to be a very good idea and an idea that everyone can do.

Resetting Cooldown would be so Imba, especially if the caster has so much Mana and have just casted his Ultimate.

That is quite easy to do, there is a native that does that. As for the rest of the spells ... I am not so sure.

 

[HailFireer]

Yes, reset cool down, but also effects it did in last 5 seconds are gone. So if it did 500 dmg to someone, it is regenerated

 

[Kingz]

You know what's really boring!? Having to wait half an hour to download a map just because some freaking idiot decided that increasing the map size with a bunch of useless icons was a good idea.

Unless you are in the stone age download of maximal 8 MB takes what? 5 minutes?

People whose download of 8MB takes 30 minutes won't be able to play the map in multiplayer anyway.

 

[Xarwin]

Listen up.
Of course we will be using some custom icons for inventory items.
However, I would like to spare space and make sure we can use more custom icons for hero spells too (also for the near future once the map is stable).

 

[Kingz]

Your map, your call.

Remember that most people like custom icons and eyecandy in a map overall.

 

[Xarwin]

If you want eyecandy you need combinations.
You can't grant every hero custom icons and give each item a custom icon.

 

[Deolrin]

Hey, guys, I have a suggestion... Why not make the items Hive-themed? Like, for example, items like "Mecheon's Fist", "Pendant of the Green Dragon", "Robes of the Pandiablo", "Xar'win's Hammer", "Flaming Phoenix Egg", etc...

 

[dead-man-walking]

Hey, guys, I have a suggestion... Why not make the items Hive-themed? Like, for example, items like "Mecheon's Fist", "Pendant of the Green Dragon", "Robes of the Pandiablo", "Xar'win's Hammer", "Flaming Phoenix Egg", etc...

Void's Shovel, anyone? xD

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Unless you are in the stone age download of maximal 8 MB takes what? 5 minutes?

I don't know in what planet you are but in my planet not all people in the world have top speed connections like yours. A Vietnamese player will take more than 15mins to download a map that big in average (I had Vietnamese players playing my map and playing DoomsDay and both projects were smaller than 5MB. One of the main problems was the slow connection they had, thus making them desync before downloading the map. The DoomsDay team tried to remake the project in order to evade that problem, but I don't think they succeeded in the end: the amount of material to deal with was too big, and the code was a problem as well.)
Besides, it is Xarwin's main idea to keep the project small sized. Reducing the amount of imported icons sure is a way to help achieve that objective.
There can be some "special level" items with imported icons, but that is for Xarwin to decide and not you nor me.

Remember that most people like custom icons and eyecandy in a map overall.

Icons help in eyecandy, but the play a minor part. The real eyecandy comes from the imported models the terrain will use (terrain plays a great role in eyecandy) and in the spells and their effects. Models also play an important role, but everything has it's cost on map size.

@debode: nice idea. I think someone gave it before though

 

[HailFireer]

debode, I had that idea too. But we forbid that people who have heroes have an item too. So first we make heroes, and then we make items. We just need to rename current ones. I mean its just a matter of looking at what item does, and finding someone on hive who it suits.

 

[Deolrin]

Hmm, yeah, but I'm not talking ONLY about person-specific items. I'm also talking about something that connects to the Hive in general - for example, Peons.

 

[Kingz]

I don't know in what planet you are but in my planet not all people in the world have top speed connections like yours.

Lolz.
I live in Serbia, 3rd world country.

I got 4Mbit cable internet and average of 300-400 KBps download.
Imo that is far from good when compared to other countries.

 

[HailFireer]

Same as Kingz
As for items, it is OK debode. Just name the item you thought of like a peons something and such

 

[Jaret]

Lolz.
I live in Serbia, 3rd world country.

I got 4Mbit cable internet and average of 300-400 KBps download.
Imo that is far from good when compared to other countries.

I live in Serbia too, got a 1Mbit wlan connected internet throughout my whole home, the download speed is mostly 100 kbps.
I know out there in America they have some 300003001301230 kbps speeds and shit, but still... A map of 8 mb is like 80 seconds of download for me, that is 1minute 20seconds, so no problem about the space. If you can find a blizz icon that suits your item, use it. Don't waste time on finding something better. I think like 10 items should have non-blizz icons. They don't need anymore.
Let's see what dotA has to offer with the icons... every 6th item icon is a custom imported one. And, every shop can hold up to 12 items. Every shop has like 2 custom icons. There are like 9 shops by the fountains, and one in the forest, that makes a total of 10 shops on one half of the map. That is 20 custom icons, and let's say an icon is like 20 kb (Which is overrated), that makes 400 kb only item icons. That's 1/20 of the whole map size, which in my opinion isn't much. But that's only the items.
Let's see now what about the heroes. I see a lot of you (including me) used only custom icons, We should like use only 2 or maximum 3 custom icons for our heroes, because right now it's fucking taking a lot of space from the map.
I, for one will update my hero to have like 2 custom icons, I suggest the same to all of you. Seriously, why waste so much space on custom icons? Better to take like one custom model for something, than 5 icons for items.

 

[Deolrin]

*cough cough*

I did already, check the item thread.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Lolz.
I live in Serbia, 3rd world country.

Great for you. The day you have a crappy connection like the Vietnamese have, just come and tell me how it is.
I assume you also want other people but Serbians to play the map right?

 

[HailFireer]

His point was that it is a third world country, and that we don't have an awesome internet connection, dimwit. It wasn't racist or whatever...

As for icons, we will use them for basic weapons since they don't really need them. As for rest we shall see what we will import.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

As for icons, we will use them for basic weapons since they don't really need them. As for rest we shall see what we will import.

Seems a good starting point.
Perhaps basic units should also have normal icons as well?
As for the hero spells, each hero is allowed to have 1 imported icon iirc.

 

[Kingz]

As for the hero spells, each hero is allowed to have 1 imported icon iirc.

4) You're welcome to post an custom icon of your heroes abilities at your hero concept. But do remember this is hero concept and your hero could be subjected for alteration from time to time.

The alteration refer to the usage of the normal model for attack projectile, warcraft 3 ordinary icon and so on.

Now you see right there, it is okay to provide custom icons for heroes because they will probably be changed by the developers.

I don't see a reason why posting an item concept shouldn't follow the same guideline.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

I don't see a reason why posting an item concept shouldn't follow the same guideline.

If you promise to Xarwin to review ALL ITEMS AND CHANGE THEIR ICONS ACCORDINGLY then I agree with you.
Else, stop spamming, your stubbornness is only going to increase the total amount of work that Xarwin and his team already have, and they already have a lot to do.

 

[HyperActive]

Lolz.
I live in Serbia, 3rd world country.

Serbia is a 2nd world country.
Pozzz.

As for the map size, you shouldn't be that much concerned. Just don't spam useless icons, if there are already some fitting ones in the MPQes. Icons can be compressed down to 8-10kb (both BTN and DISBTN), SFX are also not that big in size, especially those particle based.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Serbia is a 2nd world country.
Pozzz.

As for the map size, you shouldn't be that much concerned. Just don't spam useless icons, if there are already some fitting ones in the MPQes. Icons can be compressed down to 8-10kb (both BTN and DISBTN), SFX are also not that big in size, especially those particle based.

In deed, Serbia is not a 3rd world country:
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm

In deed, Vietnam is a 3rd world country.

Most icons in THW archive are already compressed iirc. But ya, HyperActive kinda explains what I feel. You should always use an icon from the game, unless it gets really hard to find one. My project was a small project and it had over 100 items. If each item had an imported icon, the amount of space required would have increased a lot (considering each icon set is 20K because we need 10K for BTN and 10K for DISBTN, I would have needed 2MB of space in the map. It is a lot for 100 icons).

 

[HailFireer]

3rd world country usually refers to countries with bad living standards. Serbia is not really that bad but it eint good either. Now stop talking about it or else. And else is punishment.

As for reviewing icons I asked Xarwin to name 1 or 2 guys from team for that, so they do same as Septimus but with items. I got no response.

Anyway, don't worry about icons. Just submit ones you think are the best. Devs will decide will import be used, or is there a suitable one in war3 already. if it can't be decided other people will be asked. I think its most fair.
Also, if its a bout a hero related icon (spell or any else), or an item that is named and represents a user, they will also be asked do they agree with the chosen war3 icon. If no one else wants to do this last part, I will. But that is far away right now.

 

[Kingz]

I am quite sure Serbia's Network Infrastructure qualifies for a 3rd world country.

I am not talking about the whole living standard, only the infrastructure.

On the topic:

As Hail said, everyone should be free to submit a item concept with a custom icon, if the mods don't like it then they are free to change them.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Anyway, don't worry about icons. Just submit ones you think are the best. Devs will decide will import be used, or is there a suitable one in war3 already. if it can't be decided other people will be asked. I think its most fair.

I will be happy to help on my summer time.

I am quite sure Serbia's Network Infrastructure qualifies for a 3rd world country.

You kidding me ?
Prove it.

Anyway, I see people making ubber items and orbs but ... what about the basics ? I had an idea: we can use some of the ladder icons from wc3. I mean, they are already made, they even have a story and all that stuff, and some of them even have cool effects. If the dev team needs some time we can use the wc3 ladder items as the "very basic items" that no one wants to create because they are too boring. What do you guys think?
Also Kingz seems to have some nice ideas, I guess we could team up and create some really basic / cheap icons if it is needed. What do you say Kingz?

 

[Deolrin]

I submitted a few basic +Armor\+Damage items. You could use only the first-tier ones if you want. Anyways, I thought they could be used as components for more advanced items.

 

[Xarwin]

You guys are only talking about slow downloads, did you ever thought that it's good reserving space for later imports?

I mean, the map will start small but will eventually require more and more space.
It is better to be prepared and each little bit counts.

 

[Jaret]

You guys are only talking about slow downloads, did you ever thought that it's good reserving space for later imports?

I mean, the map will start small but will eventually require more and more space.
It is better to be prepared and each little bit counts.

Yeah, that's what I was waiting for the whole time someone to say. Listen to this guy. He's well worthy of being the main developer of this project. The first edition (Version, whatever) should not have more than 5 mb in space. Eventually, Xarwin will want to add something to the map later. Why waste the whole space, when you can keep some space unused? For later updates?

p.s. About the Network Infrastructure of Serbia, we're quite weak with electronics in Serbia all alone. We don't have speeds of 10 mBits, nor do we have anything other. WE should be ashamed of our country (I am). In my town, some of the ads are made with movie maker... MOVIE FUCKING MAKER... Think about that... Serbia - Fucking piece of shit called a "country".

 

[Kingz]

@Deobode

I noticed that the banhammer might have more than 3 items for a recipe. You should probably stop at 3 items + recipe as a maximal number of items for a recipe.

@Flame_Phoenix

I am quite bussy atm.

Anyway i need more info about the game systems and factors.
Should the following be able to be increased through items:

*Critical chance(stackable)
*Critical damage(stackable)
*Life steal(stackable?)
*Spell vamp(??)
*Evasion(stackable)

Anyway i need more info for more basic items.
Such as:

What are the basic stats of an average tank/dps/mage hero?
What are the basic stat growth of the same ones?
What do the stats increase on a hero?
Do stats increase anything on a hero?
Will the atributes be separated from stats?

And so on...

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

We also need some minor regen items. I will try to think about some.

 

[Xarwin]

Boompadidaboom!

Bring your items on guys!

 

[dead-man-walking]

Xarwin? Any thoughts on currently-submitted Items?

 

[Kingz]

Yeah when will we know which items are accepted and which aren't?

 

[HailFireer]

When someone reviews them. I asked Xarwin to form a team to do it but idk.

EDIT: Tomorrow I will check all items submitted. I'm not planning on rejecting any of them, but some will have to be changed (more or less).

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

I would just like to note that we don't have basic items ...
And I am not sure of the attribute system either.

 

[HailFireer]

-Debode: Ok, I like the idea of upgraded weapons and armor. But if you combine 2 items dmg should combine not lose. Its true that then you free 1 space, but that will make players go for some stronger items then. So damage should double (Raider's Blade - 20, Shaman's Claws - 40). Same with armor (1, 2, 4, 6(this wont double to 8 because its too powerful then)). Banhammer is great. For Hive hammer, I don't really like summons. Kinda overpowered since then you can trap enemies. Also, its stats are a little defensive, so maybe it should add like attack speed or something. You can freely add more bonuses to it, it is a Hive hammer after all. Cost and items needed will balance it.

-Crazed_seal2: Well, I don't like the name. I imagine it like admins poking bad guys. Not good. So name should be changed(Negrepper or something). But idea is good. Also since punishment is negrep its not really frost, its fire more(rep is red). Also you said frost attack, but didn't said what it does(slow down, frost nova, stun, idk).

-Etzer: Its nice. But it makes no sense to add damage. So instead of that +5 dmg, it should have immolation and maybe Fire retaliation (name it what ever you want) - if RANGED (must be ranged since immolation will take care of melee) unit attacks unit wearing the cloak there is 15% chance that a fireball will hit the attacker dealing 100 dmg and stunning for 0.75 sec (this is only to cancel the command or cased spell, to to actually stun and make it vulnerable).

-dead_man_walking: YAY! Temporal shield finally looks good. Although since its very powerful (Look at Void in Dota, hes ulty is time stop), so that will be checked by cost and items needed.
Boots are nice. But change from using 80 mana to like 6% (or so) of users base mana. That will make boots work same for spellcasting and melee hero.
Torch is good. But change mana usage to XX% as well. Also change description to "A small torch with magical properties. It is used by Far Seers to guide their allies in even the thickest darkness.". It sounds nicer.



Ok this is so far. Kingz has a lot more items so I will post review in second post (and he has a lot of base items, thank you!!).
All of the above should use base items we have to make needs for recipes, if they didn't do so. Hope you will listen to my suggestions.

 

[HailFireer]

-Kingz: First basic items: They all look good. But you uses lumen for a lot of them, kinda gets repetitive. Some should be changed. Also Lumen Pierce should be Piercer, sounds better.

Medium tier: These are nice as well. Most of them should be achieved by buying only 1 item and a recipe (upgrade basically of the basic items). Also, Deadly Grasp -> Deadly Graspers, and Massive Impact -> Massive Impactor.

Random tier: Ok I will go thro each of them since these are more impotent (will have higher impact on gameplay).

-Mecheon's Orb: Looks nice. +12 intellect will have to be adjusted to our system, but else is good. Also I want to have his permission (what if he wants a hero instead). If he doesn't give it we can always rename it.

-Lich's Wit, Darkscream: They are good.

-Skythian Slasher: Its kinda only a weaker darkscream, so its kinda useless, since people will rather save money for better one. Adding (or changing) some bufs would be nice.

-Ksenian Spear: Like Skythihian, its only a very weaker version of duality edge, so idk. Its effects should be completely changed.

-Duality Edge: Awesome. This can be one of the most powerful weapons in game.

-Quan: Its good. We apparently have a user named quan, but he only registered in 2008 and wasn't here since, so no permission required. I thought for a moment to change its name to some other user, who is much more "valuable", but idk, your call.

-OK, you have 2 Occam's Razors. Both are good by stats, but names (of both) will be changed. Why? Because they are armors, and razor has nothing to do with armor (except destroying it). And I would also like to know if its connected to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor, luckily, no members are called Occam.

-Ghost Shell; Like the name. But making it all mana like is little to... TES4: Oblivion. So I suggest add active invisibility (its ghost after all), passive and dmg to mana stays, but lose +120 mana and +16 intellect, and add passive that it has 15% chance that wearer will turn in to a ghost on attack, thus evading it (evasion with cool description).

-Highlander's Robe: +6 agi is to little, make it +12 (that will be transferred to attribute system accordingly), also remove that speed boost is active, make it passive.

-Phase Bracers: Looks good. But +5 to a stat? So it can be any stat? Like treads in Dota, stat depends on which items you had or what? Explain please.

-Wanderer's Vestment, Dead man's ring: They look good.

-Accension Signet: Cool. But what does that 20% energy channel do?

-Ground Skimmer: Well its nice. Move speed will have to be balanced I think in compared to Overdrive boots. Also, I don't know what magic resistance has do do with them, but OK.


OK, that's it. Now, I have a question: Numerous items you submitted have magic resistance. To what? Spells, magic attack (that's useless since only few creeps will have magical attack (maybe none) and it can't be against spellcaster heroes normal attack since its imba). Please define more.
Oh and will you be having a hero made after you in this map or not? I need to know, thx.


Ty you all for submitting a lot of good items.

Now I will search old tread for good item ideas. Since there items are not sorted that nicely, I will read them all, but only approve ones I like. I don't really want to bother with badly posted ideas, that are not that good.
So if on my next review you don't see your item that you submitted (if you remember them), that means I didn't like them. So don't cry instantly, and resubmit it to new submitting tread properly. I know it's kinda a bother, but you will all be credited(I know no one reads them, but what can I do). Thank you.

 

[Kingz]

HailFireer:

@Lumen items

Meh i didn't know how to name them, Lumen(light) sounded fitting.

@Mecheon

Is he still even active?

@Quan

There is a THW member named like this? Oo

@Occam's Razors

One is missnamed.
The 2nd razor should be name:
Soulcrest Shroud

Will change it.

Also Occam's Razor is just a cool name i picked up from a game i played. It can be changed. Obviously it has nothing to do with razors.

@Skythian Slasher,Ksenian Spear

They are weaker than Darkscream because they are combined into Duality Edge, you need them to make Duality Edge.

@Ghost shell suggestions

That sounds imba.
Imho it is good as it is. It is great for tanks who need mana since it converts damage taken into mana.

@Highlander Robe

Sure.

@Accension signet

You should read to the end:

Energy Channel: Everytime this unit casts a spell it regains 20% of the wasted mana.

@Magic resistance

Ever heard of Runed Bracers from normal WC3?
Look them up ingame, they have 33% magic resistance which means damage you take from spells is reduced by 25% + 33%*25% which is roughly 32% or something.
Anyway if that doesn't ring a bell : Hood of Defiance - Dota

Oh and will you be having a hero made after you in this map or not? I need to know, thx.

Concept submited and aproved already.

I am updating my post now, didn't post about 6-7 item ideas.

Anyway glad you liked my ideas.

 

[HailFireer]

We can always change 1 or 2 names of lumen items in development. Well see.
I know what magical resistance does in war3, but thease guys insist on customizing everything so wasn't sure.
About accension signet I newer figured thos 2 are connected, sorry. Not really sure why Oo
About Ghost, keep it, we can always make something with my suggestions. I just thought that it fits more to ghostly stuff, idk.


EDIT: New items look nice. Also, I will write descriptions for items when I get time.

 

[dead-man-walking]

I've done the editing of Mana costs and Torch's (stupidly) cheezy description.

A question to Kingz:
Is Dead Man's Ring supposed to be based upon a member? Or?

 

[Kingz]

No, it just sounds cool.

 

[HailFireer]

Ah great. I also didn't took item icons in to consideration, that will be decided latter. Also all stats are still subjectable to changes, in case cost and items needed can't balance it (to weak or to strong), but main idea of what it boosts will stay.

Hope some of you will still come up with cool item ideas. I will also submit some too when I get time.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

IMO we should define our own item system. In all AOS I know of all items will eventually get useless so you have to sell them or destroy them. It then turns hard to people to know which items to buy and when, since they will lose value with the progression of the game.
We know that +1 attack bonus in the starts is very good, but in the end it is simply useless because it doesn't scale with the game, nor with the hero.

A way to prevent this is to make items add a bonus percentage, instead of +1 attack, we could add +2% bonus attack (per example) which would always scale with the game.

Another way is to make all items upgradable. For an example, there is no +10 damage bonus item, there is instead a +1bonus damage item that you can upgrade 10 times.
This system would also benefit the game by allowing the user to make his own customizations, the user would then be able to create items that would add bonus speed, attack movement or even an orb effect by combining different items.

Just a suggestion, think about it.

 

[Kingz]

I am against such an idea

My reasons why:

1st:
Items are meant to have a low,mid and high tier qualities. That separates the items in strength and that is something you see in every game RPG game for example.

2nd:
What if a hero gets "fat" early? I mean normally you would have to save a lot of money to buy a high tier item but with the upgrade possibility you can upgrade your low tier item to medium-high without the possibility of you losing money due to a death.
Having high tier items means that if you want to get a high tier item you must play mostly safelly and be more careful which brings a nice aspect to the game.

3rd:

It then turns hard to people to know which items to buy and when, since they will lose value with the progression of the game.

Not really. I never had any trouble determining which item to buy/sell at a certain level. You just need common sense and have to actually think which item benefits you and your team the most =\

But there is an idea i do like:

This system would also benefit the game by allowing the user to make his own customizations, the user would then be able to create items that would add bonus speed, attack movement or even an orb effect by combining different items.

But i think not all items should be upgradeable.
For example:
Low=> Mid - yes
Mid=> High - yes

Low=>Mid=>High - no