Island Expedition

[deepstrasz]

1. There is space between trees. Press P to see the pathing. Small units like workers can hide/get through trees.
2. Try not having neutral camps without being covered by cliffs/doodads in a U shaped fashion to avoid them engaging scouting units in early game.
3. Mines should not be without trees protection as Acolytes will have no chance and die quickly during an enemy incursion.
4. Not only can you buy items from shops behind the neutral camps as the shops are not surrounded by trees/doodad/cliffs but the shops are quite near each other creating spam tactics for the Blademaster to buy Circlets of Nobility and for other heroes in general (quickly you might have Boots of Speed and Staves of Teleportation on all your heroes). I think you should place one shop, then the murloc camp and then the goblin laboratory and not one shop again.
5. Expansions have few trees.
6. You did not save the map on the latest melee patch (map options) as not all Tavern heroes are available.
7. The mines in the center have too much gold considering they are so close to each other. Not sure if intended but when you enter the center where the dragons are, two groups attack you at once.
   
8. I don't know if the mines between the players and the center guarded by hydras should be there. Their position is rather not only hard to defend but the space to build anything else there but the main building would block the way.

The map is great otherwise.

Awaiting Update.

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[Goretian]

Thanks for review, and of course I will reply for some of points that are really helpfull for understanding how to create not only nice map but great and balanced gameplay on it.

Regarding the mines without trees behind them, well yes. But as I remember same situation we have in map called 'Friends' from original WC TFT for 8 players, where mines are in fact in front of the bases. Distance is of course longer between players, so yeah it may be the problem. But anyway in this map what I need to do to fix this is to put players locations on small islands and give them more space (yeah those poor NE) or put trees behind mines and find another ways that will path toward the sea.

Goblin shops - yeah I can do that like you said but again there is not many space to put them in points where some of the players will have longer path, and some of the players will have them just outside the base, so what I think is best solution is to put trees behind shops for players to be able to buy anything only after they kill creeps or at night.

And what I think about the mines between player's loacations and the top. Player may have a choice to go up or go outside the isle and build expansion in one of location that he choice to be better. There is not that much space in it may be in some way in the middle of the path, but in some sense this is what I expect from this map - a little bit of risk and fun from details like this.

 

[deepstrasz]

Hey, I guess you could really put some few trees round the starting mines as not to block the way to the ramp. Trust me, as it is now, the Blademasters will make Acolyte soup early in matches.

 

[Eregos]

I would say make the outermost peninsulas going out to gold mines a little bit wider, so that Insane AIs don't get stuck. They got stuck on my playtesting. The easiest use for these 24p maps is for massive comp stomps. Other than that its a good map, one of the better 24p maps I've seen so far.

 

[Goretian]

Hey, I guess you could really put some few trees round the starting mines as not to block the way to the ramp. Trust me, as it is now, the Blademasters will make Acolyte soup early in matches.

Yeah I thought about it. Also what I can do is to place mines near one of the sides of the trees, and nicely round it with the trees to fix it (then there will be no problem with early Blademaster or militia rush for acolytes; mines will be more inside the base and got cover from trees like usually have on most of the maps. I will think which concept works better.

I would say make the outermost peninsulas going out to gold mines a little bit wider, so that Insane AIs don't get stuck. They got stuck on my playtesting. The easiest use for these 24p maps is for massive comp stomps. Other than that its a good map, one of the better 24p maps I've seen so far.

Thats good point. There are some issues with trees and I'm working on it. I want to replace them also on upper expansions to have more space for buildings, but at the same time I will put them more - close to each other, to have them more for expansions and to have space for path.


Anyway I'm working on big update for this map, and I guess it will be finished around early June.

 

[deepstrasz]

Changes made,

Approved.

Some of the ramps have visual gltiches.
Now, there is less space to build in the main base.
Some of the crab groups are too near the ramp to the middle while others are not. I'm saying those that are may attack player units.

 

[mafe]

Uh how did I miss this being posted? Looks great, will review soon(tm).
Ok here we go: Looks like a great map to me. You asked for feedback, and there are still several points I might have done differently, but these are just minor nitpickings.
-Gold mines on the highest floor: Flowers and bright doodads look a little silly if undeads take the mine and you have all sorts of lively plants on blight. Also the 4 mines are so close that realistically only one faction can mines from them at the same time. Which is not necessarily a bad thing though.
-No clear natural expansions that "belong" to a starting position. This means you might not be able to have a safe expansion (outside island gold mines are too hard to creep early on), which I think would be expected from a competitive FFA map.
-Also the trees separating starting positions might be all chopped downs at some point leaving very open attack paths in (non-team)FFA.
-Undeads in particular might have to come up with new building placements as otherwise acos might be more exposed than normally.
-Some of the red camps seem to not have any antiair capabilities at all.
-Some creep camps have to many different creep types for my liking.
-Also the creep-strength-to-item-level ratio seems to be vary more than on established maps, but overall the itemdrops are ok.

Some suggestions to think about:
-I like that you have given each "floor" a slightly different tileset design. But maybe you could do even more here. Remember that now you are allowed to include more tiles from other tileset. Or use more recognizable doodads on each level (though all of this might make the map slower to load)
-Undeads would appreciate more critters.

 

[sharicasmi]

This is a beautiful map. Very similar to a map I'm working on right now. Unfortunately, Undead blight does not work properly in maps larger than 288x288. Please remove blight requirements for online play.

 

[deepstrasz]

Unfortunately, Undead blight does not work properly in maps larger than 288x288. Please remove blight requirements for online play.

When does this happen? It looks like everyone can build on their blight.

 

[sharicasmi]

As far as I can tell, It happens above the map size 288x288 and it happens MORE often to players in games with 12+ players. It has been happening since at least 2016. We have had several games where undead players CANNOT build anything other than a necropolis because their blight requirements simply aren't working. To quote an earlier post of mine on Eastern Kingdoms 24 player FFA Edition
"I once saw someone build 4 necropolis and survive for 2.5 hours in a 4 hour session by repeatedly building and upgrading his necropolis because that was all he could do because of the undead blight bug. He even took 3 island expos by just summoning a necropolis>upgrading it>repairing it untill it can kill creeps.

When i first heard about it i said "LOL yeah right." Then I watched the replay and this guy joking about spamming acolytes/being a religious community etc. The Undead blight bug is a serious issue and needs to be acknowledged. You are supposed to be able to build on your own blight or else the game is broken."

In one play, the guy built 4 necropolis, quickly purchased a goblin shredder, upgraded his 4 necropolis, all while spamming acolytes and fending off a player using latest patch data. He was joking 'Don't attack me, I'm just a friendly religious community' with the guy who was raiding his main. It was unbeleivable.
He even went on to survive for 2 and a half hours by taking island bases, upgrading necropolis. Finally after 2 hours, he found that he was able to build an altar on someone elses creep.

[edit] [General] - Blight Bug - Can't build Undead Structures in Blight
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/bnet/topic/20762227119 [/edit]

 

[deepstrasz]

edit] [General] - Blight Bug - Can't build Undead Structures in Blight
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/bnet/topic/20762227119 [/edit]

Thank you for the heads up. However, this is a Blizzard Entertainment issue. We'll have to wait for them for repairs.
Might it be a player colour issue?

 

[sharicasmi]

Thank you for the heads up. However, this is a Blizzard Entertainment issue. We'll have to wait for them for repairs.
Might it be a player colour issue?

That's what I thought at first, since i had noticed it happening most to player 21 (coal), but then i noticed it happening to player 4. And then one day JSRG had it happen to him as player 1. At first I tried employing triggers to build/destroy creep producing buildings around player 21, and it didn't work. It seems very random.

 

[deepstrasz]

That's what I thought at first, since i had noticed it happening most to player 21 (coal), but then i noticed it happening to player 4. And then one day JSRG had it happen to him as player 1. At first I tried employing triggers to build/destroy creep producing buildings around player 21, and it didn't work. It seems very random.

Hmm... what about player start locations. Did it usually happen in the same map area? Just curious. It might not make much sense...

 

[sharicasmi]

Idk. Removing the blight requirement fixes it. Figure it out your self.

[EDIT]I will temporarily add the blight requirement to my first project to see if they have fixed it, but I doubt it. [/EDIT]
[EDIT]After 3 testing sessions with undead in an online lobby, I was able to reproduce the blight bug in my original project. I am disabling blight requirements in my projects bigger than 288x288 for now. Another map I've noticed this happening in is 24 marketplace. [/EDIT]

 

[deepstrasz]

Idk. Removing the blight requirement fixes it. Figure it out your self.

I did a couple of runs on full undead and I've not encountered the bug. Either it's very rare or happens sometime later during gameplay.

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@Goretian an issue is the fact that undead players will have their expansions exposed due to the blight spreading across the cliff as the Gold Mines are too near cliffs in some places.