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Hive Workshop Cup Melee Mapping Contest - Results

Discussion in 'The Arena' started by Landmine, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. Wayshan

    Wayshan

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    @Kerael I think @deepstrasz pretty much answered it for me. I had issues with the style of Jale's comments and the fact he just attacks the map in the chat just embarrasses me and provides me with no actual way of defending myself. Which is why I posted it here. And of course, I already approached Jale by PM. Also, Anomines and I have completely different issues of course. I was just pointing out that when I see something which I disagree with, I don't walk away. In this broad perspective, we fit both into the same category.

    As for Jale's earlier post, I hope you are not serious about that. And if so, read it again and pay attention to Jale's criticisms. F. e.: mediocre map and poor aesthetics. How exactly am I supposed to react to that in a constructive fashion, lol.

    Once again, I don't call for anything here. I just wanted to mention it and say I disagree with this kind of behavior in general, in any group of people, in any kind of interaction. So basically, you don't need to do anything.

    @JaleVeliki Man, the map is imperfect, has many flaws, I am well aware of that. Please, by all means. If you have constructive criticism, let me know and I will be super happy to read it and learn from it. Saying that you don't personally like visuals, style of the map, that it's confusing for you, that's it's boring, that it's unfair, those are all just attacks to me. This is what you did here and on Twitch.

    So again. Please, let me know what I can and should improve, and I will gladly accept the advice. If you would have done so earlier, we wouldn't need to have this stupid discussion and we might have been already focusing on the flaws of the map.

    But as long as you will attack my work and insult my efforts with no other reason than to just humiliate or just mock the effort I've invested into it, I have no place for your ill comments.
     
  2. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    I apologize if style turned out to be overly harsh and was deemed insulting. I couldn't believe what I was seeing and wanted to spark a discussion over it with my quick, hasty thoughts. Much more constructive criticism is on the way (but takes time)!

    I encourage others to join the discussion as well. I'd love to hear multiple opinions to conclude if I'm terribly wrong with my statement.

    EDIT: Statement: Northwatch Hold in its current form isn't a map ready for competitive play but was allowed on a tourney, unlike many other overlooked maps in the contest that execute given guidelines (balance+art+innovation) better.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  3. Wayshan

    Wayshan

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    Alright, apology accepted, no harsh feelings. Waiting eagerly :)
     
  4. Svetli

    Svetli

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    Hey, guys! Can anyone tell me where to see the reviews of the maps by the judges?
     
  5. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    There aren't any.
     
  6. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    great!!, old enemies, new friends. Like Jaina and Thrall at the end of WC3 ROC campaign.

    they will be posted in the future.
     
  7. Kerael

    Kerael

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    @Svetli On the first post of this thread. Everything you can find is an official review.

    @Wayshan I am serious. And I've read it a couple of times before quoting. And yes, I count some of the questions quoted as reasonable. Some is enough.

    You get too emotional about it, that's the thing. And I understand you, seeing your work get shat on is a rough experience. Nudl9 gave you the best advice for this case.
    You see, as long as you only see the words but not the meaning and reason behind them, you will always feel attacked for whatever reason. You gotta understand that there's a message trying to manifest itself out of what people say about your work. It may be unclear, the form might be raw, but the fact is there.
    Level-headedly. You provide a material basis for the answer to objective questions, such as wisp-spot numbers, expansion/traversal timings, innovations etc. And you may deflect the subjective questions since they can't have a universal answer (unless your creative designs obstruct the gameplay and whatnot). In all honesty, if you think that you are left optionless in defending yourself, that in itself speaks something.

    And regarding the 'image' of your melee map being damaged, I have to say that there's only one image: the minimap image. If it raises questions, there should be an answer. And if there are no answers, then who knows, maybe it's damaged fairly.

    edit: Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't end up in this ugly situation of judging each other and whatnot, if not for the known reasons, yet here we are. No offense.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  8. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    But Jaina and Thrall were conjectural enemies. They did not even know of each other before meeting the first time.
     
  9. mafe

    mafe

    Map Reviewer

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    So, a lot has happened. I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about some events.
    I dont want to adress all the issues, at least not now. Just a few:

    Old maps being allowed in this contest:

    Obviously I benefitted from this decision. Still, I feel I took a minor risk, as while my map was previously known from being played in the hi2chaco league, it did not do too well in the previous contest for which I had originally made it.
    Normally, the hiveworkshop only allows submissions which are made during while the contest is running. If we accept that this contest was running on short notice and with just 2 (?) weeks to make maps, I believe that this was a good decision as a consequence:
    -For me personally, I'm a notoriously slow mapper, and I know that many other people in the scene are (like me) having full time jobs. I would not be able to complete a map in 2 weeks with the level of quality I'd like to have. So I would not have been able to participate if I would not be allowed to submit and old map. I suppose many other participants were in a comparable situation.
    -I believe it benefitted the overall quality of maps submitted.
    -It was a chance to give exposure to good older maps that would otherwise never have gotten such a chance.


    The contest being organized on short notice and with just 2 weeks running.

    Well, ideally there would be more time. But I'm just assuming there was a good reason for it. And after all, why should every contest follow the same rules? On the upside, the results were out really quick (disregarding what happened after that), and I think that's something every participant will like.


    The "wrong" maps won!


    Well, as a matter of fact, there are different opinions what a map should be like and imho all of them have a point to some degree.
    My personal opinion is that a good new map should first and foremost be balanced. However it should also not be only balanced, but also give players new challenges or offer something new/unique.

    Regarding my opinion on the individual maps, I'll have to moderate all of the contest maps anyway, so I will post a review/some short notes anyway while doing do over the next days (or weeks, as many melee maps have accumulated during this contest).
     
  10. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    @mafe ""but also give players new challenges or offer something new/unique"".

    This is really one statemaent that i realy cant hear anymore (no offence)
    Im mostly a melee player and just make maps cuz there just arent many good ladder maps. Everyone thinks he is the next special snowflake and needs to bring something new. Guys the game is 17 years old and is figgured out. its a shame we only have like 12 good melee maps. We meele players just want some different maps with new layout but no extra special creeps with sleep or whatever. Its already really really hard to make a map thats balanced for all matchups and we just want options
     
  11. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    Wise reflection. Just wanted to say that.

    And I wanted to say that, mmm, well perhaps some maps scores should be re-evaluated: Northwatch Hold mostly since is a winner map, and well I agree with @JaleVeliki that there are more balanced maps that deserve to be winners.

    About the score of my map (52 of REMODEMO) I agree with it, I think it shoudnt change. And I would like to say that somehow I didnt follow a melee rule for 1v1 wich is , have mandatory 2 goblin merchants.
    I didnt know it till today (I received feedback, I asked feedback during the mapping time), I wouldnt risk to ignore something like that.

    So the thing (I didnt know) is posted in @Anomines changelog update of Swamped Temple. Somehow I wanted to do a map like that and Northrend Isles.
    But I followed the old Swamped temple, and didnt read the changelog or download the update (of 2019 march) with the 2 shops thing. My bad for being not updated with the info.

    "Lvl 15 Marketplace with lvl 4 Furbolg Shaman, lvl 6 Furbolg Tracker and lvl 4 Furbolg now moved to the middle of the map. The marketplace is replaced by a second shop due to balancereasons and the creeps are replaced with 2 lvl 5 Ogre Maules and a lvl 5 Renegade Wizard. Items stay the same."

    -So sorry for the 2 shops laking.
    -And sorry for the rushed crayzy creeps (I didnt want to steal others recipes so I did my best to do new balanced recipes).
     
  12. Kerael

    Kerael

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    This is more of an unspoken rule. The more you know, I guess. I believe, some updates are in order! :)
    By the way I really liked your mixed Merc Camps, very nice touch!

    While we're at it, I want to propose one thing: We, as community, need the Ultimate Melee Mapping Guide! There are quite a bit of melee tutorials, however they feel kinda scattered, each touching a small subset of aspects.

    @mafe's Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps is, what I believe, the most fundamental in its approach, so it would prove instrumental to be updated with topics on the Goblin Merchants, base layout 101, the basic metrics for the objectives (expansion/traversal timings) and more!
    However we shouldn't lay this task solely on mafe's shoulders. People capable to properly disclose said topics are most encouraged to add to the tutorial (I think pm-ing a snippet would do) and should be credited for their effort!

    @SayuriTenshi Well, this is a rather grim take on innovation. What you said is reasonable, but only to an extent. Such as playing on Turtle Rock in 2o19. Great map, but I mean, yeah...
    Don't get me wrong, there are standards to be followed. And in-between, there is some space for something new. Not too much new, but enough to spark something out of this old game for a while until it's normal again.
    You see, the 'need to bring something new' is very, very human. You cannot combat it. You cannot kill hope.
     
  13. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    How about a reform?
    Making Neutral Melee Assets Viable for Ladder+Others
     
  14. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    I disagree with @SayuriTenshi on this part: "Guys the game is 17 years old and is figured out. It's a shame we only have like 12 good melee maps." The figured out part especially.

    TLDR: New maps aren't bad, we just need to spend some time with them.
    ---

    It's not like we had 100 new ladder maps from 2002 to now to really test things out.

    The same 'good' 12 maps are just maps (mostly green) that have been filtered out over the years due to large amounts of bad maps.

    The meta such as it is, currently only exists BECAUSE of the maps it is played ON for so many years without change. The maps DEFINED/EVOLVED the meta. We, the mapmakers, are melee players ourselves as well, and just require the highest skilled testers to confirm if everything is really okay/perfect. But we do try to make sure to involve possibilities for strategies that have developed over time (like fast expand or AOW creep)

    On the other hand, what is perfect? A map can have design choices like Echo Isles not having Labs. Eventually, players will get used to whatever map they play on and develop strategies/metas on it (unless super bad or broken). All those 'quirks' on such maps have turned into strategies. Northern Isles was a new map once, Amazonia was... Would you consider them good maps now but hesitate back then?

    How often did we see NE eating trough trees to setup expo on maps before Amazonia?
    Does the lack of creep experience, Labs and expos on Echo Isles make it bad? No, it creates an interesting all-in situations or different approach.

    A successful new ladder map formula would be: keep 90% and create 10% new.

    IMHO, Blizz just needs to force like 6 new (but good) maps and let it simmer for half a year. Otherwise, highly skilled/involved players will always choose old maps they've practiced all these years on. To me - something like that is highly unattractive and uninteresting to watch. Just look SC2 for example, 3-4 new maps every 4 months from the community.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  15. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    For example, I can easily remove Mana fountains on Ruins of Azshara LV for races that dislike it, put some elevated, buildable ground at Mercs for HU and add trees next to the tavern for NE. All of those were specific design choices, made to force a new playstyle or restrict old ones. Your race hates the map? You'll veto those map your race doesn't benefit from anyway...

    If some map gets vetoed into oblivion, it will get removed eventually. Why not try something new in the process?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  16. Anomines

    Anomines

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    I think its more a question of choice. There are so many things that could be "wrong" in maps but maybe are just a choice.

    This is why judging this is also quite hard because deciding for certain features is always a +/- list.

    Echo isles works perfectly with one shop and even makes it to one of its features. Its beneficial for some races and bad for others. Maybe there are other ways to balance it out. On paper the marketplace is inbalanced, but again EI can pull it off due to the style of the map and creepcamps that wont drop items that would be imbalanced to buy in the marketplace.
    So there are always decisions to make and not every map has to have all possibilities available.

    Like take the criticism on Gold Port:
    Sure, there are no trees in the center available and thats bad for kotg - but does every map need to be viable for all heroes? Sure its beneficial but there are also maps where I would play DL fast exe and maps where one couldn't pull it off.

    Also things like water that blocks the "open map design" and doesnt allow free movement in all directions. Yes its true, but it can also be boring. Amazonia vs TS. Both can work.


    Further the criticism with the green camp too far away and not viable in competitive play. EI has a green camp that far as well and is perfectly viable. Also having green camps dropping something possibly important (like rune of spiritlink), gives a whole new level of inportance to a camp like this. Might it be just to get it to avoid your oppo to get it.
    I think it was mafe who wrote it once (I'm not quite sure if it was him). But many of the oldschool maps which are used for competitive play would have maybe even gotten a bad rating in contest. 1 shop, no way. Different distances to neutral buildings at different starting positions - no go. Matketplace? Imba..and so on


    So one should of course keep in mind all the possible imbalances and try to avoid these things. But once one is aware of them its also good to play around with it a bit and see if it still produces something interesting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  17. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    Since when is 1 shop or marketplace imbalanced? Some playstyles may benefit from it yes but imbalanced no. NI works rly fine and is a really good map. Like i said that would be a good way to go for uniqueniss. Also i dont see marktplace come into play that often on ni eaven with the strong items. Only in the late late game on 80 supply someone may buy a goo aura
     
  18. ToggleModGoat

    ToggleModGoat

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    While some of the judging seems harsh, it is good on every part. It is good to see our own maps through other peoples eyes. While we can have widely different opinions on what looks good and what doesn't. we should always take feedback in and think about what we can make better.
     
  19. 3ICE

    3ICE

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    (2)UthersSlumber_v5.0
    No glaring problems found. Pretty map. Creeps were a little easy. Good itemization and unit type variety. Computer AI eventually built itself into its base so hard it was not able to leave for the rest of the game with anything except wisps and dryads. Widening the starting areas would help prevent this. (Yeah, it was vs Night elf.) Aside; I dropped a Sacrificial Skull on a green creep camp near the middle, and only trees got blighted, not the ground. So no regeneration for my army :( It's 100% unbuildable terrain there...

    Rest of the maps will be checked later.

    p.s.: Nice drama in the beginning of this thread. I for one can see both sides of the argument(s).

    Edit: Rabbits, Dogs, Raccoons have 200 (Camp) acquisition range set on them for some reason
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
  20. Kerael

    Kerael

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    No. This thing with Night Elf AI cannot be fixed with base layouts. They will always wall themselves in.

    And you army did in fact regenerate. The Blight isn't visible on unbuildable terrain and water, but it is present. You can check that with a minimap, since it's visible there even on water.

    And no, it wasn't nice.