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Hive Workshop Cup Melee Mapping Contest - Results

Discussion in 'The Arena' started by Landmine, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    The issue is the image of his work being ravished because he's doing it backstab style instead of writing about it on the map thread.
    It's more of an indirect thing.
     
  2. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    so what now? what should we do?
     
  3. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Just know people more like what they are.

    What did you have in mind?
     
  4. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    change topic to avoid spinnings around this topic that the only thing we can do is complain , but not moderate or ask for moderation.

    I am very out of ideas.
     
  5. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    @Wayshan

    I didn't catch time yesterday, but I am working on a longer review of the map Northwatch Hold (visual arguments incoming) to point out what can be improved on the map, and why such map (regardless of author) - is NOT ready for competitive play. The main reason behind my salty approach is not because much, much better executed and thought-out maps ended up not being in the tourney, but because a map with many problems did and pros played on it. FOR MONEY.

    Don't get me wrong, it has potential and is actually better than about 60% of contest entries, and I'm not even going to review subjective things such as texture/tileset or doodad choice and color; but fundamental features every competitive map has to have in order to be cup/ladder ready, such as: no wisp spots, enabled aow creeping and tree expand, somewhat symmetric buildable space for both players, map borders, mini-map readability, intuitive layout, fair layout, fair creep routes, no aggro while passing, choke widths similar to current ladder maps... and some of the things we'd very much love to see such as: creatively executed visual theme, no visual obstructions or distractions, creeps and visuals that fit the theme....

    Other finalists do all of those things properly, and 5-6 maps that were placed lower than finalist do them better than Northwatch Hold. That is the main reason. Had there been multiple judges as previous contests, the result would show itself without me engaging, we just need more judges!

    EDIT: The reason I'm displaying my opinions publicly is because people are afraid to criticize or start a discussion over it, and I saw none of mapmakers and previous judges daring to comment something about this map - so I'm starting it, regardless of contest results.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  6. Wayshan

    Wayshan

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    @Kerael I think @deepstrasz pretty much answered it for me. I had issues with the style of Jale's comments and the fact he just attacks the map in the chat just embarrasses me and provides me with no actual way of defending myself. Which is why I posted it here. And of course, I already approached Jale by PM. Also, Anomines and I have completely different issues of course. I was just pointing out that when I see something which I disagree with, I don't walk away. In this broad perspective, we fit both into the same category.

    As for Jale's earlier post, I hope you are not serious about that. And if so, read it again and pay attention to Jale's criticisms. F. e.: mediocre map and poor aesthetics. How exactly am I supposed to react to that in a constructive fashion, lol.

    Once again, I don't call for anything here. I just wanted to mention it and say I disagree with this kind of behavior in general, in any group of people, in any kind of interaction. So basically, you don't need to do anything.

    @JaleVeliki Man, the map is imperfect, has many flaws, I am well aware of that. Please, by all means. If you have constructive criticism, let me know and I will be super happy to read it and learn from it. Saying that you don't personally like visuals, style of the map, that it's confusing for you, that's it's boring, that it's unfair, those are all just attacks to me. This is what you did here and on Twitch.

    So again. Please, let me know what I can and should improve, and I will gladly accept the advice. If you would have done so earlier, we wouldn't need to have this stupid discussion and we might have been already focusing on the flaws of the map.

    But as long as you will attack my work and insult my efforts with no other reason than to just humiliate or just mock the effort I've invested into it, I have no place for your ill comments.
     
  7. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    I apologize if style turned out to be overly harsh and was deemed insulting. I couldn't believe what I was seeing and wanted to spark a discussion over it with my quick, hasty thoughts. Much more constructive criticism is on the way (but takes time)!

    I encourage others to join the discussion as well. I'd love to hear multiple opinions to conclude if I'm terribly wrong with my statement.

    EDIT: Statement: Northwatch Hold in its current form isn't a map ready for competitive play but was allowed on a tourney, unlike many other overlooked maps in the contest that execute given guidelines (balance+art+innovation) better.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  8. Wayshan

    Wayshan

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    Alright, apology accepted, no harsh feelings. Waiting eagerly :)
     
  9. Svetli

    Svetli

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    Hey, guys! Can anyone tell me where to see the reviews of the maps by the judges?
     
  10. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    There aren't any.
     
  11. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    great!!, old enemies, new friends. Like Jaina and Thrall at the end of WC3 ROC campaign.

    they will be posted in the future.
     
  12. Kerael

    Kerael

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    @Svetli On the first post of this thread. Everything you can find is an official review.

    @Wayshan I am serious. And I've read it a couple of times before quoting. And yes, I count some of the questions quoted as reasonable. Some is enough.

    You get too emotional about it, that's the thing. And I understand you, seeing your work get shat on is a rough experience. Nudl9 gave you the best advice for this case.
    You see, as long as you only see the words but not the meaning and reason behind them, you will always feel attacked for whatever reason. You gotta understand that there's a message trying to manifest itself out of what people say about your work. It may be unclear, the form might be raw, but the fact is there.
    Level-headedly. You provide a material basis for the answer to objective questions, such as wisp-spot numbers, expansion/traversal timings, innovations etc. And you may deflect the subjective questions since they can't have a universal answer (unless your creative designs obstruct the gameplay and whatnot). In all honesty, if you think that you are left optionless in defending yourself, that in itself speaks something.

    And regarding the 'image' of your melee map being damaged, I have to say that there's only one image: the minimap image. If it raises questions, there should be an answer. And if there are no answers, then who knows, maybe it's damaged fairly.

    edit: Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't end up in this ugly situation of judging each other and whatnot, if not for the known reasons, yet here we are. No offense.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  13. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    But Jaina and Thrall were conjectural enemies. They did not even know of each other before meeting the first time.
     
  14. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    , You could explain your points more and avoid silly words as: boring, mediocre, .



    Note: I was holding myself all this time, but Jale has casted an overall summon. Twice. I am a UWBYA an Ugly Wolf that will Bite You All. @JaleVeliki fault for summon me.

    Northwatch Hold:
    -walking distances seems long, that may affect: early pvp, Tier 1-Tier2 rush, creep hacking, overall manuver.
    -Favours TIER 3 hold and later push, And Air Forces will have more manuver in a big map than land forces.Favours PVE (Probably what Jale wanted to say when he only said it was boring).
    - Corners are not a good place for mines. Corners are places where you dont want be (much time).
    Ideal for fountains or marketplaces to visit with the hero alone, or creep fast.
    (edit:saw the play orc vs ne, ne expanded silently to corner, orc figure out scouting. NE teleport, try to defend, very far away from base to be able to send reinforcements, NE retreated(walking) and mine lost. I wouldnt expand there first, hard to defence). In fact NE was having advantage first and that turned the tide.)
    -Bases shape seems not-orthodox for 1v1.
    -Corner mines have different shape. (cliff south, arch way north).

    edit:forget all what I said before,I saw a play NE vs Orc. NE cleared center edge mine, went to build. and the tortoise level 7 from other camp agro the building. So while NE lost the building and was figthing the creep, orcs went to attack the base, that bug is very important..

    Imagine players are having an equally match until one of the players loose the townhall in that way. Is not fair to loose the gold of your tree of life or necropolis.
    By fortune ORC player had clear advantage before that, so the game can be validated.

    you cant have such creep near a mine.
    upload_2019-10-17_1-12-20.png

    Uther Slumber:
    - Those expandings are hard. And the play I saw prove them, you wont expand to the near tavern mines, near edge mines are more safe. In NE vs UD, NE harrased UD. NE can have the wisp protected, the other races not. If I am UD, HU or ORC against NE (I would try to veto that map first). (seems a nice map for NE VS NE).
    -Map follows twistead meadow mines open recipe (more open actually) wich in NE vs HU, HU has 42% winning rate (the other plays have more fair statistics). So perhaps wouldnt try a recipe (very open expandings) that is already used to be veto-and hated by HU players.
    - Chance of creep aggro, agresive creeps, bad for scouting.

    Brigthwater Oasis:
    -You can buy in the shops from behind, and put a serpent ward from above, and who knows what other crayzy stuff. And you have to figure it out, I dont remember that trick in orthodox plays.
    -Those red creep expandings in cliff are un-confortable to play.
    -The random-spawn buildings may be a dislike to those who like to perfectly memorice/practice the map for a top match (consider that you have to practice/memorice many maps). So is a so-so thing. Ideal to have fun.

    Gold Port:
    -No trees near tavern, needed for KOG, and NE scouts.
    -To much unbuildable tiles in the center path.
    - AOW in goblin shop. and then what, leave there?, I cant fortify the area with 2 towers?, Also have the AOW there hard to defend, no near place to move it. . Seems to have 1 path aligned with the 2 shops with the tavern, so that path is the main for both players, is not that good idea for NE play (I could imagine a NE veto).
    - Deep water seems nice, but IMO, it just cut manuver, more paths game-play. Like shops could have a different path.
    - Goblin lab, chance of aggresive creeps.
    -Green creeps near corner mines, should be orange, after creeping the 2 near base, a 3rd far green doesnt worth the time in a competitive play.
    -for a map that it seems was rushed to reach deadline, is a good one.

    Rivulet:
    -Already said the pond in the middle (may affect land manuver).
    -I think LS merc. camps are more needed than gob. labs. Troll priest for Tier1 healing. An orc strategy is to leave damaged grunts in base, so the troll priest is very handfull.
    -You cant farm/tower scout the goblin merchants, but NE can owl scout.

    Ruins of Azhara:
    - I wouldnt use the rune of the watcher. Mana fountains alone is already a rare thing in a map.
    -Merc. camps should be in buildable areas. IMO, I like fortify a merc. camp, with 1 AOW and 1-2 towes, and play guerrilla- scatered warfare. (I remembered Orange played that way, with hidden bases. And he survived a HU harras thanks to his scattered play until HU exhausted his gold.) Thats why I dislike shallow water and unbuildable tiles in neutral buildings areas as a first view.
    -I do really hate this map because I dont know other balance issues, and I have a lot of envy to this map, with more balance issues, I would not feel envy.

    @JaleVeliki , while I do agree with many questions/things you mentioned, I think it would have been fair and less ugly to talk about all the maps flaws and not just focus in Northwatch Hold isolated case (many times).
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  15. mafe

    mafe

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    So, a lot has happened. I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about some events.
    I dont want to adress all the issues, at least not now. Just a few:

    Old maps being allowed in this contest:

    Obviously I benefitted from this decision. Still, I feel I took a minor risk, as while my map was previously known from being played in the hi2chaco league, it did not do too well in the previous contest for which I had originally made it.
    Normally, the hiveworkshop only allows submissions which are made during while the contest is running. If we accept that this contest was running on short notice and with just 2 (?) weeks to make maps, I believe that this was a good decision as a consequence:
    -For me personally, I'm a notoriously slow mapper, and I know that many other people in the scene are (like me) having full time jobs. I would not be able to complete a map in 2 weeks with the level of quality I'd like to have. So I would not have been able to participate if I would not be allowed to submit and old map. I suppose many other participants were in a comparable situation.
    -I believe it benefitted the overall quality of maps submitted.
    -It was a chance to give exposure to good older maps that would otherwise never have gotten such a chance.


    The contest being organized on short notice and with just 2 weeks running.

    Well, ideally there would be more time. But I'm just assuming there was a good reason for it. And after all, why should every contest follow the same rules? On the upside, the results were out really quick (disregarding what happened after that), and I think that's something every participant will like.


    The "wrong" maps won!


    Well, as a matter of fact, there are different opinions what a map should be like and imho all of them have a point to some degree.
    My personal opinion is that a good new map should first and foremost be balanced. However it should also not be only balanced, but also give players new challenges or offer something new/unique.

    Regarding my opinion on the individual maps, I'll have to moderate all of the contest maps anyway, so I will post a review/some short notes anyway while doing do over the next days (or weeks, as many melee maps have accumulated during this contest).
     
  16. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    @mafe ""but also give players new challenges or offer something new/unique"".

    This is really one statemaent that i realy cant hear anymore (no offence)
    Im mostly a melee player and just make maps cuz there just arent many good ladder maps. Everyone thinks he is the next special snowflake and needs to bring something new. Guys the game is 17 years old and is figgured out. its a shame we only have like 12 good melee maps. We meele players just want some different maps with new layout but no extra special creeps with sleep or whatever. Its already really really hard to make a map thats balanced for all matchups and we just want options
     
  17. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    Wise reflection. Just wanted to say that.

    And I wanted to say that, mmm, well perhaps some maps scores should be re-evaluated: Northwatch Hold mostly since is a winner map, and well I agree with @JaleVeliki that there are more balanced maps that deserve to be winners.

    About the score of my map (52 of REMODEMO) I agree with it, I think it shoudnt change. And I would like to say that somehow I didnt follow a melee rule for 1v1 wich is , have mandatory 2 goblin merchants.
    I didnt know it till today (I received feedback, I asked feedback during the mapping time), I wouldnt risk to ignore something like that.

    So the thing (I didnt know) is posted in @Anomines changelog update of Swamped Temple. Somehow I wanted to do a map like that and Northrend Isles.
    But I followed the old Swamped temple, and didnt read the changelog or download the update (of 2019 march) with the 2 shops thing. My bad for being not updated with the info.

    "Lvl 15 Marketplace with lvl 4 Furbolg Shaman, lvl 6 Furbolg Tracker and lvl 4 Furbolg now moved to the middle of the map. The marketplace is replaced by a second shop due to balancereasons and the creeps are replaced with 2 lvl 5 Ogre Maules and a lvl 5 Renegade Wizard. Items stay the same."

    -So sorry for the 2 shops laking.
    -And sorry for the rushed crayzy creeps (I didnt want to steal others recipes so I did my best to do new balanced recipes).
     
  18. Kerael

    Kerael

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    This is more of an unspoken rule. The more you know, I guess. I believe, some updates are in order! :)
    By the way I really liked your mixed Merc Camps, very nice touch!

    While we're at it, I want to propose one thing: We, as community, need the Ultimate Melee Mapping Guide! There are quite a bit of melee tutorials, however they feel kinda scattered, each touching a small subset of aspects.

    @mafe's Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps is, what I believe, the most fundamental in its approach, so it would prove instrumental to be updated with topics on the Goblin Merchants, base layout 101, the basic metrics for the objectives (expansion/traversal timings) and more!
    However we shouldn't lay this task solely on mafe's shoulders. People capable to properly disclose said topics are most encouraged to add to the tutorial (I think pm-ing a snippet would do) and should be credited for their effort!

    @SayuriTenshi Well, this is a rather grim take on innovation. What you said is reasonable, but only to an extent. Such as playing on Turtle Rock in 2o19. Great map, but I mean, yeah...
    Don't get me wrong, there are standards to be followed. And in-between, there is some space for something new. Not too much new, but enough to spark something out of this old game for a while until it's normal again.
    You see, the 'need to bring something new' is very, very human. You cannot combat it. You cannot kill hope.
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    How about a reform?
    Making Neutral Melee Assets Viable for Ladder+Others
     
  20. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    I disagree with @SayuriTenshi on this part: "Guys the game is 17 years old and is figured out. It's a shame we only have like 12 good melee maps." The figured out part especially.

    TLDR: New maps aren't bad, we just need to spend some time with them.
    ---

    It's not like we had 100 new ladder maps from 2002 to now to really test things out.

    The same 'good' 12 maps are just maps (mostly green) that have been filtered out over the years due to large amounts of bad maps.

    The meta such as it is, currently only exists BECAUSE of the maps it is played ON for so many years without change. The maps DEFINED/EVOLVED the meta. We, the mapmakers, are melee players ourselves as well, and just require the highest skilled testers to confirm if everything is really okay/perfect. But we do try to make sure to involve possibilities for strategies that have developed over time (like fast expand or AOW creep)

    On the other hand, what is perfect? A map can have design choices like Echo Isles not having Labs. Eventually, players will get used to whatever map they play on and develop strategies/metas on it (unless super bad or broken). All those 'quirks' on such maps have turned into strategies. Northern Isles was a new map once, Amazonia was... Would you consider them good maps now but hesitate back then?

    How often did we see NE eating trough trees to setup expo on maps before Amazonia?
    Does the lack of creep experience, Labs and expos on Echo Isles make it bad? No, it creates an interesting all-in situations or different approach.

    A successful new ladder map formula would be: keep 90% and create 10% new.

    IMHO, Blizz just needs to force like 6 new (but good) maps and let it simmer for half a year. Otherwise, highly skilled/involved players will always choose old maps they've practiced all these years on. To me - something like that is highly unattractive and uninteresting to watch. Just look SC2 for example, 3-4 new maps every 4 months from the community.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019