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Hive Workshop Cup Melee Mapping Contest - Results

Discussion in 'The Arena' started by Landmine, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    1) no, the campaign was ment to save one, but I think you can kill them. Perhaps game controls were not that hard in 2002.
    In skyrim, you can not kill childrens, they are invulnerables.
    2) the problem has been solved, considering only Remodemo scoring.
     
  2. Nightmare2077

    Nightmare2077

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    Nudl9, could you please chill? We understand that you're unhappy. Personal insults will not do any good at this point. (You might even regret those, once you've a colder head.)
     
  3. IcemanBo

    IcemanBo

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    What the fuck. Good that people invested time for arena guidelines.
     
  4. remodemo

    remodemo

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    Hey guys, I have not been a judge before, so I'm sorry if I didn't do it the 'proper' way. I agree, just giving a final score and no explanation is a little weird. So I'm gonna be posting some details as to my thoughts behind the scores here (in the next few days).

    As to the situation with my fellow judge; I would ask everyone to try to be understanding. I get that there was some frustration here (on both sides) because of the events that transpired. Xander felt very strongly about the issue. Felt that there definitely was something wrong about having something like that in a map. And whether you agree with him or not, the thing that stands out to me is that he wanted to do what he believed was right. Which I think is what we all want to do.

    At the same time I certainly also understand Anomines' frustration. And that he felt kind of cheated.

    I am a little saddened that this has all turned rather ugly the last couple of hours. And I hope that we can turn a corner toward something more positive. We still had a fun contest with a lot of good entries. And we will be seeing them being showcased very soon in the tournament (which I'm very much looking forward to).
     
  5. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    I don't care, somebody has to say it.
    Complacency won't bring about change.
    I said it the last contest too, find a quality judge, pick someone that understands melee.
    Instead i get judged by an idiot who's not even familiar with the map pool standards.
    I'm not sure what to expect of this site really, it's like the first volunteer gets picked without question and it's always that one person with too much freetime.
    It's a complete waste of my time, everyone else's and most of all the judge in question wrote a 48-page essay.
    Preach it.
     
  6. Wayshan

    Wayshan

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    Maybe you should apply as a judge then. If you want the change, be the change! Also please avoid labeling and personal attacks. Let's try to keep the discussion civilized.
     
  7. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    How should i apply when i don't know there's a contest going on?
    I already gave input to most of the maps in the contest and i mentioned anytime i had a certain bias.

    I made a formal complaint last time in the admin section, but that obviously didn't work did it?
    I asked for judges to be high level players.

    Like how hard is it to get a decent judge?
    Is it too hard to ask for a 75%+ player to judge the maps?

    Lets do a review of the judges background instead:
    -Remodemo, generally rounds about T3 tournaments IE middling performance, with no wins to speak - casting is mainly play-by-play, because B2W has no analyst.
    I said this before, but watching/casting games = doesn't make you better at melee. B2W lacks depth when it comes to casting and it's very surface based. Which is why the best casters are usually former high-level players (Dota's Purge for example or SSBM's Scar). You can sort of see it here (1) where Remo's suggestion don't add up with how players view of the game. There's a clear disjoint.

    -XanderDom, mapmaker?
    Literally who, no maps, nothing to show for. Most likely friends vouching for friends to judge.

    -Eubz, mapmaker (was mentioned in the doc)
    Nothing to speak of except lots of small altered melee maps. Not sure if he even did anything.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  8. Anomines

    Anomines

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    I´m happy that there was this discussion here and it didnt just fade away


    Of course I am also happy that Gold Port is now one of the winning maps but it still leaves a bitter taste to me since it kinda feels like I swindled my way into the rankings. Therefore Im quite sorry for the people who lost their placings like @Knecht and especially @Nudl9 who basically had the same ranking like me but didn´t receive the same XanderDorn treatment. Also of course all the other participants who received bad scores and strange reviews.


    Its also good that future practices of judging will be discussed since this way just doesnt seem to work. The main reason might lie in the unbelivable amount of work that is required to do as a judge. Maybe it is not necessary to judge all the maps to the core and make a multilevel system where judges/map reviewers only really review the top 6 (or so) maps. For maps that didnt make the ranking a simple +/- list with a few hints what can be done better would probably also do.
    Maybe get 2-3 decent players like remo for this top 6 maps and let them rate with numbers only (like done here). I would rather have halfway decent players just giving numbers than a mapmaker with no melee experience write essays. This way one might also find judges easier.


    Anyway, - I updated Gold Port for now and replaced the children with critters. Guess this makes life easier
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  9. Wayshan

    Wayshan

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    I don't feel like you need to be tier 1 player to be able to recognize what is and what isn't a good map. But I completely agree that the judges should be picked more carefully.
     
  10. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    The judging have always been too heavy handed with unrealistic expectations.
    Honestly people should have learned and reworked the format when Wtii was judge and said it took a lot of time.
    I don't think it's hard to process all the maps down to a few favorites and then spend more time on those.

    Personally i think you could just do with a short but sweet format, like here's an example which only took me a 15~ minutes.

    As you can see there's no need for superfluous wording. If i like the map then all i need to do is write a few comments about the things i like and dislike. If i have any concerns regarding balance, then you could forward it to a team of testers and ask them to break the map. Item drop balance isn't all that important in my opinion unless it's like a free sale on charged3 items or something like that. Xander gave me negative score for item drops that i copypasted creep+drops from TM lol.
     
  11. Wayshan

    Wayshan

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    I agree. Though here the issue was the time in general. I am unsure whether it would be possible to properly judge even 6 maps in this time window.
     
  12. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    second discharge


    Even if XanderD review may be subjetive, or unfair (with Gold Port issue). I want to defend that:
    But at least he wrote something, at least he wrote a lot,so we can question or critic.

    But I want to point that RemoDemo review (shure did a great job, and effort, but):
    the raw numbers with-no text really worries me, there is no info we can check or consider.
    Terrain score? Balance score? , also reviews helps users to understand what is good and what is bad.

    upload_2019-10-11_19-50-11.png


    Those maps were done by top mappers, 2 of those users won previous contest, and their score is very low, similar to users who submited their first map or second (please no offense). (those maps were in my top 6) and I am seeing them in the 16-18 places.

    Logging camp did very good in the poll, I dont think it was for his monocolor brownish dry enviroment, but balance.

    Northfall Isles , perhaps 6 expandings is to much, 4 is better, but I dont remember anothers flaws, something about orcs,

    Capital Island, the only flaw I remember, is that lacks of doodads for his terrain. Cigaro also always focus in balance first.

    while I dont disagree with some scores, some text explaining the numbers should exist to know what happened?

    as Nudl9 map got 70 score from R and 38 from X

    happened that Knetch got 38 from R and 84 from X

    how come such discrepancy??

    By fortune 4 maps are going to be used are good.

    Uther Slumber map: how you protect your peons in the expanding mines of that map??
    shure it was fun in 2009,(when Filmting didnt write her melee tutorial yet), and is very nice map, but 2019, there are basis for expading goldmines shape...


    I dont care the pier focal point or the map name, or if the markets may be a bit close. The issue is that map has a pond in the center converting it in a 2-ways of attack map (and walk around the center). And a 2 ways of attack map be the second better map acording to one judge...and the best in the poll?
    The tavern goes in the midle for some reason, and if not do a map like Moonspark (please I ment no offense to anybody, I also think is a nice map, I like the ponds to divide paths, and small map = a lot of early PVP).

    I cant also stand that Ruins of Azhara (winner of the 2nd contest) got less score against a 2-ways of attack map, and got 4 points more compared to another 2 ways of attack map.

    If two ways of attack (and scout) maps are good??,
    and I was thinking that 3 ways of attack are standard??
    and very open expanding bases (where your peons may be killed very easy from many ways and Advantage to NE) are good?

    then I really apology for my ignorance and writting all this(I mean it seriusly).

    I also sorry for this un-called second discharge from my part. But I really need it to take it out of my system (I think I am empty now, so I think I can promise no-more discharges from my part, I will try the most).

    Edit: and is not that I am un-happy with the fate of my map. It shouldnt have been used in a money-prize tournament. I would have veto it with many reasons(for balance reasons, not enviroment or theme).

     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  13. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    There is no clear standard.
    There are open maps like Twisted Meadows and then there are closed maps like Last Refuge.
    Making a map linear can be good to create beginner friendly enviroments.
    It's easier for players to work within the constraints of that enviroment because there are less options.
    It's sort of like when you're asked to write a story from scratch, it's hard to come up with anything, but when you're given a theme - suddenly your creativity is loose with ideas.
    Which is why Twisted Meadows can be seen as an intimidating map for new players because it offers so many options and places importance on scouting.
    So no, linear maps aren't bad.
     
  14. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    response


    1) center

    upload_2019-10-11_23-8-11.png upload_2019-10-11_23-9-57.png

    (not a map from this contest, just an example)
    upload_2019-10-11_23-15-34.png


    -sorry I would really like to say I changed my mind, sorry for being annoying. but to be honest I didnt change my mind, and could have said the same in any other RTS game map like Command and Conquer Generals or Age of Mythology, the center is too important to block it. Even in AOS I would espect a 3 ways of attack.
    But Nervermind me, at this point I am feeling like a bad annoying melee fanatic.

    about TS expandings: by seeing HU statistics, and also heard that is easy veto ( and hated by human players). I wouldnt risk a open expandings play when one of the points to review is if is balanced for all 4 races,but nervermind me.
    Twisted Meadows - Liquipedia Warcraft Wiki
    upload_2019-10-11_23-36-55.png

    And TS expandings are more safe than the ones I saw and worries me.

    you should perhaps ignore me, I have the bad habit to feel the need to respond everything every time.

    thanks for the explain.

     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  15. W3Sour

    W3Sour

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    Uhh... So I'm glad XanderDorn's review became void, because his review was disturbing.
    I ended up speaking to him privately about why he gave Anomines 0, just because I couldn't believe if he was joking or serious.
    Unfortunately he was serious, which I found laughable, but extremely disappointing. Anomines put in a tremendous amount of work for his map only
    to be shot down by a ridiculous review which stated he was condoning child abuse... An insult to his talent and work and him as a person to be frank

    In my opinion the reviewer is extremely narcissistic to bring his own (political) views into this contest, when it's meant to be about the creators work not the reviewer. even if there was 'laws' regarding kids in video games, it's not up to the mapmakers to consider that. That's Blizzard's problem. Trying to correlate a child critter in a mythical based RTS game to real world child abuse is asinine. ALso, IF you had an issue with it it wouldn't be tied into the score, and rendering his balance score to 0 with no additional balancing comments... Give him his proper score and leave your own personal statements at the end briefly without effecting the score.... Because what he did was extremely selfish.
    I hope the next contest we can find better judge's who are more objective and stamp about political and personal views regarding someone's work from ever entering this space again.

    I implore anomines not be discouraged by the review, and continue creating his great work.

    As for the maps, I have yet to go through them all, but congrats to the winners.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  16. Frotty

    Frotty

    Wurst Reviewer

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    I have to agree that the biggest problem here seems to be the contest organization, as @Nudl9 elaborated.

    What baffles me is that either Landmine & co didn't read XD's review at all or they read it and were fine with it until it became the main topic of this thread.

    Judging is hard, takes time, and the results are often subjective, but this has nothing to do with that.
     
  17. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Like-dislike=/=objectivity. To paraphrase you: "no one cares about what idea you had".
    I'm not sure anymore what your aim is, either the pro scene or the beginner?
     
  18. Folderz

    Folderz

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    Many thanks to all mappers. I'll be playing your maps with friends & strangers for years to come. I don't know about competetive much but here are my most Fun With Fellas (F.W.F) award map winners

    - shadowfang keep
    Superior theme. Dark worgen fort is epic. Real raid the castle game.

    - starfish village
    Grab zeppelin and build hidden outer kingdom. Heck, unsummon your base and vanish from the map!

    - gold port
    Be the trademaster of the port city. Pick goblin tinkerer from tavern and feel like Gallywix and the best part be rude to customers!

    - lord of the pit
    The map name is the objective. Ding! New main quest popped out! Who conquers the pit?

    - waves of sandwar
    Feels like hero arena. Build altar and couple troops and spar. No tier 2 troops needed here! You could also co-op arena creeps and then have final showdown.
     
  19. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Both.
    The current map pool is nice because you can veto out the big maps like tm, tr, swamped temple if you're a beginner, but if you're an expert player you can veto out the small ones.
    I believe that the map pool should offer something for both demographics.

    There's only so and so much you can objectively judge: bugs would be the first and balance is already in subjective territory. The layout largely comes down to taste and subjectivity. It's like Wtii said in his review "i know what i'm looking for in a map, sorta flowing paths, oval shapes, etc". That's a subjective statement. Wtii is also a fan of fountains for 4v4 maps, that's subjective. Where someone like Remo probably hates fountains. Pro players are for example more conservative and dislike non-convential creeps that ain't trolls and ogres. That's why it's important to know who the judges are, because then you can tailor towards the judges tastes. For example last contest i knew that Hi2chaco likes gimmicks, so i expected to get points for having a potion of speed static drop, which i did get points for.
     
  20. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    So Xanders Points are Cancled now or??? so are there different winners again ??.