(24) Legion Mana Temple 1.0a

[mafe]

Hello, nice work for a first map, it surely took a lot of time. Unfortunately, there are numerous aspects which show that you dont have much mapping experience yet. I will just quikcly point them out and tell you what do instead if it isnt obvious. I recommend you check out some of the various melee mapping threads on this site or elsewhere on the map for some explanations. If you have any specific questions, I will (try to) answer them.

-Game Data must be set to "melee (latest patch)" instead of "default...".
-Creeps should only have 100% chance to drop items. Do not use classes "any class", especially not if there are market places.
-Any creepcamp, except for very tiny creeps, should drop something.
-Itemdrops are very uneven. Use the combined level of creep in a spot as indicator and look what blizzard maps drop for such spots.
-If you have random units, better make sure the units have the same level in each case, so they give the same amount of exp.
-Any creeps except at gold mines should be set to camp stance.

Now look at this picture:

To get this view where you can see pathing, select terrain tool (T) (or any tool except doodads), press CTRL+D and P.
-All forest areas should look like the "yes" area with no holes or paths like in the "no" area. This has many implications, for example lumber will be gathered slower as the distances from main to tree increases much faster as trees are chopped down. To place trees, select size 2 circle tool and place up to 7 trees at once so that they are aligned nicely.
-In particular avoid such small paths were small units like footies can hide and heroes, grunts etc cant reach them.
-Avoid unbuildable terrain in from of gold mines and bases as marked in white.

 

[millzy]

um i believe some of the stuff your telling me is stuff iv already done

-i believe every creep camp has a item drop exept for the ones in the middle where the way gates are. i wanted it this way so players are more punished for using it. the reward is clear passage.
-The only creeps that have "any class" are the creeps on the player spawns witch are hard creeps and its a level 7 item witch only can be a artifact so i dont believe this matters
-i did compare my items to blizzard thats where i got the "random item idea"
- ok i agree with u on the random camp ill have to fix that. is it the same if the total lvl is the same?? (the random creeps is also only on the player spawns)
-so gold mine creeps arnt set to camps?
-ok so fill in the gaps around the trees thanks for the view of pathing didnt realize u can do that
- im aware having unbuildable areas around the gold mines is a bad idea i didnt realize that dodad stopped buildings. u can walk on it, ill fix that i believe its only the case on 1 maybe 2 mines

Thanks for the feedback
also can you please add hidden tags to your image

 

[mafe]

Ooops i didnt check out your profile at first, so I had assumed that this being your first melee map meant that this was your first map in general. I guess I was wrong here and I'm sorry if some of my comments were therefore a bit inappropriate.

-i believe every creep camp has a item drop exept for the ones in the middle where the way gates are. i wanted it this way so players are more punished for using it. the reward is clear passage.

Yes I was only referring to those creeps. I now understand what you were thinking. Still, melee players see killing creeps as something worthwile for the rewards of getting exp and items, and not simply as a means to clear paths. So many players will explicitly go creep these camps with no intention of using a waygate to get to a different side of the map. And they will be surprised if the miss out on a big item which they surely expect.

-The only creeps that have "any class" are the creeps on the player spawns witch are hard creeps and its a level 7 item witch only can be a artifact so i dont believe this matters

Ok. However, when I used the object manager to check the itemdrop, it also showed me some level 0 items, which were dropped as "unknown". I had not seen this before, so I was confused. Now that I doublechecked it, there are somw draenei disciples that have a 100% chance to drop no items, which seems to have caused my confusion and I think it should be fine.

-i did compare my items to blizzard thats where i got the "random item idea"

Here are some examples of itemdrops you dont see on blizzard maps.
-Market places, 50% lvl3 permanent, 50% lvl2 powerup. There is a huge difference between lvl2/lvl3 items. There are other such instances. It is also uncommon (but not unheard of) to have more than a single class of items drop. Basically, melee maps item drops are almost exclusively of type "100% chance to drop a lvl x item of class y".
-At the goblin shops, you get 2 lvl 3 charged items from a camp that has combined lvl of 14. Normally, a lvl 14 spot would have a single lvl 3 permanent or charged item and a lvl 1 powerup.
-Typically any spot of total lvl 13+ drops two items, one of which is usually a lvl1/2 powerup.

- ok i agree with u on the random camp ill have to fix that. is it the same if the total lvl is the same?? (the random creeps is also only on the player spawns)

The experience given by creeps only depends of the unit level. The formulas are available here: Warcraft III - Basics -> Hero Basics
Basically, you dont dont need your random units to be all of the same level, but it would the easiest way to ensure that the exp is equal. I mean, the difference between the current random groups is neglibilge anyway, but is more a case of some players being very sensitive about any unnecessary random aspects.

I also only now realized that you are using the Flesh Golem creep which is lvl 11. As you can see from the exp list, creeps are expected to have a maximum level of 10, so I dont even know how this will play out and as I'm only a melee mapper, I wasnt even able to find out where to find the values in the editor.

-so gold mine creeps arnt set to camps?

Yes. If you set creeps to camp, you make buildings close to them (at least as long as there is no lvl 8 creep iirc). So you just place towers next to the mine, use them to kill creeps and then make buildings alrady protected by towers. In normal gameplay, making an expansion attempt is supposed to leave you weak and open for harass, which would not be the case if tower are there already. Similarly, nightelves could build a tree of life close to the mine and kill creep easily.

All other creeps are supposed to be on camp stance to decrease the likelihood of them attacking player unit that just walk by.

- im aware having unbuildable areas around the gold mines is a bad idea i didnt realize that dodad stopped buildings. u can walk on it, ill fix that i believe its only the case on 1 maybe 2 mines

Now that I look again, this is indeed the only problematic spot.

 

[millzy]

im unaware of how the items in the market place work all i know is it gains random items every 2 mins
iv seen alot of melee maps with charged/perm item classes on the map

what do u mean about the goblin shop in needs stronger creeps?

 

[mafe]

im unaware of how the items in the market place work all i know is it gains random items every 2 mins

The basic principle behind the marketplace is that it will randomly have items avaibalbe that could have dropped (or in fact , did drop) from creep that were killed. Every 30 seconds, a new item is added (and I belive the oldest one is removed from the list, if there are too many to be displayed). So for example if someone kills a creep that has a chance to drop a lvl2 permanent item than such lvl2 permanent items (claws+6, circletof nobility, ring of protection +2, gloves of haste) are added to the list of items that can appear in market places. Powerups are not sold on market places.

I am not sure how marketplaces interact with the "miscellaneous" category. But asthe "Serathil" item will cost 5500 gold if it appears at the marketplace, noone will buy it anyway.

iv seen alot of melee maps with charged/perm item classes on the map

Mind naming/linking them? Form the top of my head, I can only name one such example in the battle net ladder map pool (Centaur Grove). However, I dont think it is necassirly a bad thing (as long as the item lvl is constant), especially as the unwrittern rules for larger maps are much less strict than for 1v1.

what do u mean about the goblin shop in needs stronger creeps?

I would recommend making the creeps stronger if you want to keep the items as they are, or weakening the items if you want to creeps as they are. Both options look ok to me.

 

[millzy]

thanks for all the fix ups the map should know be completed properly

UPDATE:
-Removed dodad near 1 of the mines
-Fixxed tree placement
-replaced flesh golem with infino also changed the drop (no longer drops serathil)
- removed camp status from creeps on gold mines
-Game data set to melee latest patch

 

[Paillan]

Just to be clear, this isn't an actual review, this is just a measure.
Being 1.29 in the PTR, I feel like it's smarter to hold the review on this one until patch is out.

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[The Panda]

I honestly think think these 24 player maps being produced are looking so rushed, i understand people want too be the first one to produce a 24 player map but it would look alot nicer if the map does not look rushed with the terrain and doodads. I also agree that after the patch has dropped or a new update has been made to the game its hard to review these maps as it stands.

 

[millzy]

well it hasnt been rusheshed im just not that great with doodad placement.

 

[Nolrovos]

Overall, it seems to be pretty good initially, and the things which need/needed working on have already been discussed. Could use some tweaks here and there, but nothing that hasn't already been mentioned. 4/5

 

[deepstrasz]

You don't need to write the (24) in the map option's map name. The game automatically detects the number of players.
Melee maps don't need a loading screen with text. You can leave this info in the thread's description.

Why are some creeps so far from the mines?
Please do not use the black boundary and instead use air pathing blockers to leave a nice aspect of the terrain.

Awaiting Update.

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[deepstrasz]

The map is functional and only needs a normal melee loading screen,

Approved.

 

[ZLY199377]

　　It's worth mentioning that these 24 maps became popular in China because a netizen downloaded the map and published it in "Baidu Post Bar". And because the author didn't encrypt the map, there were many disorderly map changes. Related links:最新24人地图【非官方】_魔兽争霸吧_百度贴吧