[$100 Prize Pool] Melee Mapping Contest - Poll

[Naze]

SPECIAL MELEE MAPPING CONTEST - 1v1

PRIZES AND EXPOSURE SPONSORED BY BACK2WARCRAFT

Create a competitive 1v1 melee map that excels in terrain, dynamic, and creativity, but most importantly balance, for a chance to win $100 among many prizes!

• Each user can only vote once in the poll.
• You cannot vote for yourself. If a voter has the same IP as the author then the vote will not be counted and it may result in the disqualification of the entry.
• You cannot create multiple accounts to vote for an entry in the poll. If a voter has been found to be using multiple accounts none of the voters votes will count in the final result.
• You cannot bribe users for votes. Contestants who break this rule will be disqualified and given negative reputation.
• You cannot invite friends to vote strictly for you in the poll.

• First Place: 30 reputation points, your entry on the award icon, a Back2Warcraft T-shirt, and $100 through paypal!
• Second Place: 20 reputation points, an award icon, a Back2Warcraft T-shirt, and $50 through paypal
• Third Place: 10 reputation points, an award icon, a Back2Warcraft T-shirt, and $25 through paypal

In addition, higher quality maps will have a chance to go on competitive map pools on 3rd party leagues and tournaments.

• @Sister She
• @HighTac

Judges will also receive a free Back2Warcraft T-shirt!

Participant	Final Entry
1. @The Panda	Coral Reef 3.0
2. @Abovegame	The Forgotten Realm
3. @Mr.Henci	Violet Outpost
4. @Erkan	The Etherium
5. @MysteryMaze	Irresistible Mind
6. @Knecht	Thawing Snow
7. @Arrr	Outskirts Stroll_v1.0
8. @ysuk9127	River Valley 0.3
9 @mafe	Fields of Ruin
10. @Alex-dqw	Iceberg Throne
11. @XanderD	Waterfalls
12. @forsaker	(3)Forsaken Trinity
13. @Maxwell	Emerald Nightmare
14. @Mads Buus	Blizz City
15. @Adney	Endgame in the Nether World
16. @Ascrelle	Fractured Monarch
17. @Paillan	(2) Flame Wars
18. @moyackx	Pirate Coasts
19. @doom_sheep	Crown of Thorns v1.0
20. @Blood Raven	Living Woods
21. @RehcraM	Taiga's Hegemony
22. @Anomines	(2)Swamped Temple
23. @RFWH	Gilneas in Winter
24. @borissuworov	Warrior Shrine
25. @TheEarthquake	(4) Temple Field
26. @Diegoit	Sigilo v1.1
27. @twojstaryjakcie	Pillars of Honor
28. @BLazeKraze	Valley of Skulls

Balance	Is the map balanced for a player vs player 1v1? Are the positions and distance between points of interest fair? Does the map allow the 4 races to be balanced? Consider balance when implementing the pathing, resources, creep camps, and item drops.	50/100
Terrain	Is the map visually pleasing in mediums of terrain, doodad placement, and overall theme? Is the map repetitive? Is the aesthetic well designed but not overly obstructive?	35/100
Creativity & Uniqueness	Does the map bring something new or creative to the table?	15/100
Bugs	Scores may be brought down if there are bug-like issues such as faulty pathing, unusable resources, etc	-

• 75% of the winner shall be determined by the contest's appointed judge(s).
• 25% of the winner shall be determined by the results of a public poll.

Contest thread can be found here.

 

[Svetli]

Time to vote.

 

[Svetli]

@Abovegame You can't vote for yourself.....

 

[WolfFarkas]

It was really hard to me to decide the 5 maps for voting, very good work all of you Hive-mappers

 

[Elprede]

There are like only 4 entries left out, and they are finished entries. Can't we just add them?

 

[Anomines]

I still edited the presentation, hope thats fine. Think I read somewhere in the old thread that it would be ok

(2)Swamped Temple




Anyways, good luck, will check out all maps and vote tomorrow
Was quite enjoyable to use the editor after years of abstinence

 

[Maxwell]

Subscribe

 

[Naze]

There are like only 4 entries left out, and they are finished entries. Can't we just add them?

We aren't getting more than 30 maps, sorry =/ it was supposed to be 20 at first, accepting 30 maps is actually an extra step we're taking.

@Abovegame You can't vote for yourself.....

Please people, read the rules:

You cannot vote for yourself. If a voter has the same IP as the author then the vote will not be counted and it may result in the disqualification of the entry.

 

[borissuworov]

Cast your vote?
Are you serious?
Is not it better to rely on a star-rating in front of our maps:

???

In my opinion its more optimal then what we do here... Looks like judges gone away.
Then I give my vote to mafe, because without his reviews was hard to me to make a high-quality map. Unfortunately I did not have time to get acquainted with the works of the other contestants. Good luck to all! Thanx for reading this.

 

[WolfFarkas]

@borissuworov


"Is not it better to rely on a star-rating in front of our maps:"

No, the star system doesnt change after the updates, if you uploaded a 3/5 star maps and then after hard work you update and deserves a 5/5 the 3/5 will sitll be there, few users consider to change the raiting after updates, so it will be biased by the first upload and it will not reflect the update.

Also the rates there are publics so you can bias others rate, here is secret. I think the secret rate is very important

 

[borissuworov]

No, the star system doesnt change after the updates, if you uploaded a 3/5 star maps and then after hard work you update and deserves a 5/5 the 3/5 will sitll be there, few users consider to change the raiting after updates, so it will be biased by the first upload and it will not reflect the update.

You can operate only a star-number OR may write a formula which will take into account the number of voted users and the evaluation of each. Do not make a kindergarten here...

 

[WolfFarkas]

You can operate only a star-number OR my write a formula which will take into account the number of voted users and the evaluation of each. Do not make a kindergarten here...

Also the rates there are publics so you can bias others rate, here is secret. I think the secret rate is very important


"Do not make a kindergarten here..."

I just giving my opinion and trying to give a fair justification and I respect yours, this kind of statements are no needed between hive-users

 

[borissuworov]

I noticed that the voters sit in the leaders' friends, therefore the one who has more friends on hiveworkshop will win. This is my prediction.

 

[WolfFarkas]

I noticed that the voters sit in the leaders' friends, therefore the one who has more friends here will win.

Yes I am worry about that too, but we can´t do nothing against free raiting, using the star system will be the same, people will go and say nice map 5/5 and in the other nice map 3/5 with not even tell why, the star system is also free to go.

 

[Maxwell]

So what will change if judges will count star-rating? Your Friend still are able to give you 5/5. Nonsense.

 

[borissuworov]

So what will change if judges will count star-rating? Your Friend still are able to give you 5/5. Nonsense.

I agree with this.
But on the hiveworkshop more people are aware of the star-rating than the reference to the depth of this thread.
By the way, here is a simple formula: How Do We Calculate the Overall Score and Star Rating? : Charity Navigator

 

[Anomines]

I noticed that the voters sit in the leaders' friends, therefore the one who has more friends on hiveworkshop will win. This is my prediction.

I think the same. I guess the best way would have been to make a community vote within the community that plays it rather than amongst the people here. So i think a vote like this should be held on wc3 reddit/wc3info or pages like that

 

[WolfFarkas]

I noticed that the voters sit in the leaders' friends, therefore the one who has more friends on hiveworkshop will win. This is my prediction.

This do not decide the wining only the 25%, and bugs go negative points, the judges are from outside of the Hive, that will reduce the friend bias effect.

If you want to know as mapper I studied the 30 maps and I rated as fair I could, probably many others will do the same...

Also it does not look good, to change things wile the rate is going on, this talk should have started before and not under the votation, it will really look bad to delete this votation
but I think for the next contest it would be cool to chit chat how to improve the rate/vote system.

 

[Shar Dundred]

Using the stars from Map Section for a contest is useless for a contest poll.
Once the contest is over, there will be no "proof" for the result since the star rating will
keep changing.
Having the vote take place on another side is absolute nonsense, since someone could simply
tell the people to get to that other side - in fact, for the staff, it would be even more problematic
to ensure that no one got "influenced" to vote there - it might even make it easier for peopl to vote
for themselves.

The rules state that you are not allowed to have others vote for your entry - it doesn't matter
if you are bribing them for doing it or not, it is not allowed and will result in disqualification.
However, you are not disallowed from inviting other people to vote if you're not telling them
to vote them - as in, just link the contest thread and not saying anything else.

Does this result in some people voting for the friend who linked the thread to them? Of course it does.
Can you do anything about it?
Well, you could FORBID people to link contests at all, but that's pretty extreme - even for someone like me
who "keeps going the way of extremes". It's like people who are not even participating cannot share the
contest to other people.

The user poll is easily abused, yes, but that is why the opinion of the appointed judges is considered
to be more valuable (hence the 75%).

 

[borissuworov]

I think the same. I guess the best way would have been to make a community vote within the community that plays it rather than amongst the people here. So i think a vote like this should be held on wc3 reddit/wc3info or pages like that

I am tired of this democracy, where the voices decide everything ... This contest just needs a good judge.

This do not decide the wining only the 25%, and bugs go negative points, the judges are from outside of the Hive, that will reduce the friend bias effect.

I think that this is impossible. No one will judge from the side.
But I know a great melee expert here on hiveworkshop that saw all ours maps: deepstrasz

 

[Shar Dundred]

Life is unfair.

 

[MysteryMaze]

No one has ever downloaded my map today. The download remains the same for 6 hours! So sad

 

[Keito]

Vote systems are always popularity contests. They have no place in a competition. If wtii were to make a map, his would get all the votes by far, even if it was bad. There are far too many problems with a public pool. If it were up to me, votes would have 0 impact on the competition, but I'm just here to review maps, not manage it. For future contests maybe, but for now, this contest have it, whether you like it or not, and it counts as 25% of the vote.

I just implore you all to be as fair as possible. Don't just vote for your friend, or someone who helped you, or someone you know, or any of those factors. Be objective and choose the map you think is best.

 

[HighTac]

No one has ever downloaded my map today. The download remains the same for 6 hours! So sad

If it makes you feel any better, maps were distributed in a package too, so more people might be looking at it than you actually see.

 

[WolfFarkas]

I am tired of this democracy, where the voices decide everything ... This contest just needs a good judge.



I think that this is impossible. No one will judge from the side.
But I know a great melee expert here on hiveworkshop that saw all ours maps: deepstrasz

But he is just the map moderator, he is not appointed to be the judge of the contest (I also think he should be judge here, but if the thing was not defined early... we should play with what we got),

Did you saw the profiles of judges? 0 messages and 0 vm, they do not know us and they do not participate here, nothing better to a judge that be totally an outsider with no friends inside the Hive.

again the votation is going on, and anulate it now will look really really bad, if free raiting was the rule it should be done even with all their defects,


thanks @Shar Dundred for your comments and your explanations, they were indeed very usefulls to me.

edit:

Thanks @HighTac and @Sister She for your comments.
I saw your comments after writing this post.

I hope I did not say anything, out of place.

 

[MysteryMaze]

If it makes you feel any better, maps were distributed in a package too, so more people might be looking at it than you actually see.

Wow, that makes me feel a lot better What a nice idea!

 

[mafe]

Nice, there is a package? However, if it is publicly available, I am unable to find it. Could anyone provide a link in this case?

 

[deepstrasz]

I am tired of this democracy, where the voices decide everything ... This contest just needs a good judge.

Yes, I really did not expect user votes to have any impact... I thought this one would only be judge based.

But I know a great melee expert here on hiveworkshop that saw all ours maps: deepstrasz

I am in no way a melee expert, please. I haven't played ladder for ages. It's due to people like @mafe, @Ragnaros17, @MysteryMaze (their reviews) and others that I am able to see things more accurately on melee mapping.

moderator

reviewer

Did you saw the profiles of judges? 0 messages and 0 vm, they do not know us and they do not participate here, nothing better to a judge that be totally an outsider with no friends inside the Hive.

Exactly why user votes should have no say here.

 

[IcemanBo]

The judge's role is to focus on technical aspects in an objective way. It never fully works, and so it can become useful if there's an external power trying to balance the discrepancy. Decissions might become less, or more fair, but the main thought is that the judge alone doesn't have the absolute power. The poll gives the community a little voice to regulate final ranking, and that's maybe good since it's all a public and official contest. Not sure if it was better if noone else of the community could take the possibility to have a bit of influence.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Yes, I really did not expect user votes to have any impact... I thought this one would only be judge based.

It was stated at the very begining that 25% of the contest was going to be decided by a public vote, there was a month to throw 100 pms and vms to complain and change things, now that the votation is going on , it looks bad to change rules just now.

I am in no way a melee expert, please. I haven't played ladder for ages. It's due to people like @mafe, @Ragnaros17, @MysteryMaze (their reviews) and others that I am able to see things more accurately on melee mapping.

Hey thanks for naming me, I am not that experienced neither. I only play against AI.

 

[Anomines]

I think its not the public poll that is the biggest problem but that it happens here on Hiveworkshop. I just think ladderplayers should be the audience that should vote for the best map.
Because as we can see now there are maps leading that are quite interesting in terms of terrain or use of custom import but are not playable on ladder at all.

Making a meleemap takes way more knowledge than most people think and its not in placing some units around the map and making some funky terrain but in how the game is played in general.
At the same time it seems very easy to create a (seemingly functioning) meleemap since it requires only some of the basic skills that even absolute newbie mappers have.

So in my opinion it makes sense to have a public vote on the hive when it comes to icon/spell/herocontests because the people who actually use these created resources are mappers themselves, but in case of laddermaps most mappers can barely judge on the points that are actually important.



Lets see how it turns out. I guess the best would be to just post this thread to as many ladderelated pages as possible and hope that some skilled players participate in the voting. In the end it is these players who will have to deal with the results of the contest (if any of the maps are good enough to be taken into tourneys)

 

[pick-a-chew]

The only reason this poll is problematic is because of the number of entries; judges are obligated to test each entry but voters are not. Because the poll is so big it exacerbates the "popularity contest" issue (true votes will be spread more thinnly across multiple entries). In the future I would recommend shortlisting good entries so the poll becomes more indicative of quality. The rules of the contest were set and you all participated willingly so it's unreasonable to complain now.

 

[WolfFarkas]

In the future I would recommend shortlisting good entries so the poll becomes more indicative of quality. The rules of the contest were set and you all participated willingly so it's unreasonable to complain now.

100% agree

 

[A Void]

Just wanted to say congratulations to the contestants, you did great for this kind of genre.

Once again I noticed some unusual votes, I think it's obvious that there might be foul play. The same thing happened in a previous contest. I hope that whoever is in charge of this contest would investigate every voter.

How should we know if every vote is legit? Multiple new accounts made within the contests lifespan with no activity should be removed from public voting.

Judging should also take a larger criteria than public votes.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Just wanted to say congratulations to the contestants, you did great for this kind of genre.

Once again I noticed some unusual votes, I think it's obvious that there might be foul play. The same thing happened in a previous contest. I hope that whoever is in charge of this contest would investigate every voter.

Judging should also take a larger criteria than public votes.

What is your definition of foul play? vote bribing? and wich contest are you refering, the music one?

 

[A Void]

What is your definition of foul play? vote bribing? and wich contest are you refering, the music one?

Not vote bribing, having multiple accounts or users who only registered to vote. Basically, all those new accounts who have very little activity. They shouldn't be allowed to vote.

I'm referring to Mini Mapping contest 14 - Stealth.

 

[deepstrasz]

Not vote bribing, having multiple accounts or users who only registered to vote. Basically, all those new accounts who have very little activity. They shouldn't be allowed to vote.

It's debatable since there might be Back2Warcraft fans coming in to vote. Surely, it's not a easy way to decide a thing like you're suggesting.
However, I also see a major discrepancy in the poll...

 

[HighTac]

Interesting and reflective discussions here. If I may put my two cents in: Judges are going to test the maps extensively. However, it will always be subjective and particularly the balance aspect can only be assessed superficially. It would require hundreds of matches between players with different races, skill levels and play styles on each map, in order to really evaluate that. As in every contest, not everyone may agree with the outcome, but we will make sure that everyone can follow our train of thought.

The 25% influence of the voting seems okay to me. It helps to get everyone involved, but of course it may favor participants that are well known within this community. Nonetheless, I don't think it'll tip the scale in an entirely new direction. Publishing it outside of this community wouldn't make much sense either. Let's be honest, there are not many people beyond the Hive borders who would voluntarily test 30 maps for a game that had its 15th birthday.

I really hope that people are going to enjoy the beauty of all these maps and the excitement for this contest, rather than residing in process and fairness discussions.

 

[mafe]

There's like 10-15 entries I could've voted for. Good work. Wasnt easy to reduce the list down to five.

 

[Naze]

So. Public Poll is where we let the community have a little bit of participation in the contest, because this was a community contest - we've been running contests and adjusting our rules for more than 10 years now. The average user doesn't necessarily follow a rigorous criteria, and we're well aware of this. That's just how public polls are, so what we do is reduce the public poll impact to only 25% of the final score.

Judges, on the other hand, are checking each map individually and do follow the criteria to write a small review and give scores to the map. This is why they decide 75% of the final score of each entry.

Even then we had discussions in the past of people being upset with judges - it's too much decision power on him/her: the judge can be biased and some things are too subjective to be analyzed by a single opinion (like "creativity" and general aesthetics). So we try to avoid this by having 2 judges when we can, and also having a bit of public poll.

So don't worry, the public poll does not decide the contest by itself. Sister She and HighTac are doing an excellent job, and in 2~3 weeks or so the poll will be over, we'll calculate the final scores and publish the detailed judging in a Results thread, where you will know the winners and can read the judging reviews.

---

There's like 10-15 entries I could've voted for. Good work. Wasnt easy to reduce the list down to five.

I know right. Also guys, everyone is free to post here the reasons why did they vote on their entries of choice, if you're feeling like it =)

 

[MysteryMaze]

Here is a guidance to find a good melee map.


1) Map size
Most competitive maps are made out of 96 x 96 ( 84 x 84 ), with the biggest existing one being Secret Valley, the size of which is 128 x 128 ( 97 x 90 ).
Why map size so important? If a map is too big, it would take too long for a hero to reach the opponent's base. For some Heroes, such as BladeMaster and DeathKnght, early rush is almost as essential, but they are unable to catch the enemy red handed at the creeping site it if a map is too huge. Other strategies including militia rush might not work as well.
Hence, a time limit for a 2 way map would be 36 seconds by BM ( even 36 is being generous. ) as all competitive maps are within the range of 33 sec.

If a map exceeds 96 x 96 (like 128 x 96 or 128 x 128 ), please check playable area and then the actual distance before any other details.




2) Natural expo
It would be better if one's natural expo is closer to one player than being exactly in between.

This way the attacker will know where the opponent is going and the defender will choose whether to take risks( go for expo ) or take other creeping routes.
However, if the natural expo is right in between, like in Harrow,

the attacker is forced to make a blind conjecture. Everything would be dependent on luck, and if he's unlucky enough to bark up the wrong tree, the following consequence might be unalterable.






3) Item drops

Levels 3-8: Level 1 permanent or power up.
Levels 8-11: Level 2 permanent, charge, or power up.
Levels 11-14: Level 1 permanent or power up and Level 2 permanent, charge, or power up.
Levels 14-17: Level 1 permanent or power up and Level 3 permanent or charge.
Levels 18-21: Level 2 permanent, charge, or power up and Level 4 permanent or charge.
Levels 21-23: Level 2 permanent, charge, or power up and Level 5 permanent or charge.
Levels 23-26: Level 2 permanent, charge, or power up and Level 6 permanent or charge.
Levels 26-29: Level 1 permanent or power up and Level 3 permanent or charge and Level 7 artifact.


Loot is something creators are often struggling with, but I think this table would suffice.
*Note: Level 5 permanent is a bigger reward than a Level 6 permanent!





4) AOW creeping sites.

For Night Elves, it is imperative to harness Ancient of War in creeping.
A good map should provide proper AOW sites near the main and some other places.

Example 1

Example 2

Screenshots from my submission, Irresistible Mind.


I'll add more.
Any question might be welcome.

 

[deepstrasz]

the judge can be biased and some things are too subjective to be analyzed by a single opinion (like "creativity" and general aesthetics).

Voters are even more biased.

Any question might be welcome.

I guess, this should have been posted during the contest entries period.

 

[Arrr]

@MysteryMaze That's smart, now.

Those are really basic, please let me expand on the topic a slightly bit.

You forgot to mention the base layout: it is important to have a starting position where you can wall off your base, as human with 2 farms main altar and barracks, as ud with a combination of 2 ziggurats, graveyard/altar/crypt/shop, Ne always finds a way, and orcs may like to leave 1 entrance open. (Could show some screenshots in my map, but I'm lazy, I'll let you do that ^^)

Also important is the way the enemy can access your base. It depends on number of entrances to your starting position area, as well as how much room there is in front of the base and how can the sieging/defending player manouver around obstacles/terrain (if there is more room in front of the base, depending on race and strat sieging could be easier/harder, tower pushing can be easier if there is more space or if there is a position where tower can reach almost every way out of the base for example; then there's maps where it is easier to go around on the other entrance of the base while on others it takes much longer; or again the possibility of a defending player to leave the base and such).

The time travel matters mostly on base to "important" creepcam mostly, rather than base to base. This timing can be achieved both by map distance, as well as pathing, or creep difficulty (depending on the type of creepcamp objective).
(Twisted Meadows is bigger than Secret Valley, while Last Refuge is smaller, but feels(is) larger because of pathing and to an extent creeps (the lab for example is crept later in the game usually, there isn't an urge to go there for the opponent).

The natural expo should be closer to the player starting point not really for creepjack/routes reasons, but for timing usually: the player has cleared most of the camps during the time it took for the enemy to come harrass; pushing him back gives more time to bring up the expo, and the closer distance means it is easier to defend/reinforce, and in case of successful hold gives more time to breathe to the defender.
Not only that! but also really important is the militia duration. Having a camp too far away means the militia can do little to nothing contributing to the expo.
Also remind to make sure that creeps guarding the expo will not allow buildings being built too close (setting them at normal aggro rang), but also not having them randomly attack you while walking by.

That is a generally nice item drop table, useful. To expand a bit, keep im mind that camp level sometimes is not equal to camp difficulty. Also the position on the map matters for the drops.

Nice that you mentioned AoW creeping.
Maybe you could also mention militia creeping. Militia is very versatile, can creep both easier green camps while the hero is doing something else, or help on some creep routes other than the expo depending on map design (for example, on twisted meadows, humans can creep the lab camp). Usually there should not be red camps/too strong item drops on a camp within militia duration range.

Will update if I forgot something about the basics.

@deepstrasz there are tutorials, such as Competitive Melee Map

I mean..

 

[Svetli]

When will the poll be closed?

 

[WolfFarkas]

When will the poll be closed?

So. Public Poll is where we let the community have a little bit of participation in the contest, because this was a community contest - we've been running contests and adjusting our rules for more than 10 years now. The average user doesn't necessarily follow a rigorous criteria, and we're well aware of this. That's just how public polls are, so what we do is reduce the public poll impact to only 25% of the final score.

Judges, on the other hand, are checking each map individually and do follow the criteria to write a small review and give scores to the map. This is why they decide 75% of the final score of each entry.

Even then we had discussions in the past of people being upset with judges - it's too much decision power on him/her: the judge can be biased and some things are too subjective to be analyzed by a single opinion (like "creativity" and general aesthetics). So we try to avoid this by having 2 judges when we can, and also having a bit of public poll.

So don't worry, the public poll does not decide the contest by itself. Sister She and HighTac are doing an excellent job, and in 2~3 weeks or so the poll will be over, we'll calculate the final scores and publish the detailed judging in a Results thread, where you will know the winners and can read the judging reviews.

---

I know right. Also guys, everyone is free to post here the reasons why did they vote on their entries of choice, if you're feeling like it =)

maybe the marked in color

 

[Svetli]

maybe the marked in color

Thank you!

 

[WolfFarkas]

Thank you!

This poll will close on Dec 6, 2017 at 5:49 PM.

 

[Diegoit]

If i win this i can survive by me self like 6 months, or buy 4 desktop computers

 

[BLazeKraze]

Look at this contest. It produces an awesome and high quality maps. The "prizes" motivated the map makers to show their true skills and talents. Anyway, I would like to vote "Living woods" by bloodraven only. I don't know why, but my heart fell in love with that map.

 

[Svetli]

Look at this contest. It produces an awesome and high quality maps. The "prizes" motivated the map makers to show their true skills and talents. Anyway, I would like to vote "Living woods" by bloodraven only. I don't know why, but my heart fell in love with that map.

With those beautiful shadows. I have voted for him too.