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Reforged Warcraft III Reforged - Artistic/Textures/UI Feedback

Discussion in 'Patch & Reforged Discussion' started by Sieben, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. SebioL

    SebioL

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    I don't agree so much partner. The Reforged models are from a 4K game, much more modern. The quality of the details is much higher.
    The Reforged models are much more interesting than HOT's and I wouldn't trade them for anything ... After all, I only bought Reforged for the new models. The team that produced them is to be congratulated. Now ... if you disregard them, what additional features are so interesting ... Lol Lol
    But I agree that HOT's can be an alternative form of models, after all, their quality fits perfectly. The problem is whether we will have mass conversions from HOT's to Reforged.
     
  2. kantarion

    kantarion

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    When we speak abou Reforged and other games we need seperate 1. design and style 2.textures - realistic or cartoon 3. proportions

    People usualy fall on textures - realistic or cartoon and dont know explain.

    Me however could go those textures (some textures are dirty as hell) if designs were better and closer to original, no spamming uneccesery details and having better rts fitting proportions , and ofc having better shaders.

    Also metalness in reforged shine like a diamond on many models,specually gold parts. Specularity in hots give wetness , hm . Metalness was to supposed to produce some similar effect or be sort of derivate specifically for metal parts,as far as i know.
    Its weird how desired feature ended up not working well

    Reforged could have been succsesfull game, but it ended bad. Also texturing work is generally incosistant , its a product of too many freelancers not controled and organise d well.

    Too much models having unfriendly wc3 designs, and many of them doesnt have the fitting style even for blizzard games.

    Bad body base proportions is a common thing, along with spamming nonsense details for rts game.

    Design is main issue here , and its something that is objective.
     
  3. Goffterdom

    Goffterdom

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    From a game design point of view I can tell the models / textures do not fit a RTS game.
    • There is not enough teamcolored parts
    • Units are hard to differentiate from afar (too realistic, too many details, less shape differences than before)
    • Their file size is too big leading to lags / freeze (even on end-game computer) or just really long loading time
    • Lighting and post-process make the same unit too different from a light scenario to another
    • Shaders are bugged leading to differences of rendering between map development and map play
    • Too many details glow too much, luring the eye from what's important, whether it'd be emissive or metal materials
    Now I must admit, I'm happy we have new models and I'm enjoying the new look overall. It seems fancier to me. Despite all these flaws. I would have loved to have great models with the same RTS sense they had before though.
     
  4. SebioL

    SebioL

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    I realize that if they sought realism, they achieved this successfully, either in the resolution of textures or in the design of the models.
    I was looking for that and Blizzard responded as it should!
    Now I believe that Reforged needed to exaggerate the brightness of the lighting due to the rendering being of a very bad quality, in a forced attempt to compensate for something.
    I agree with a good part of what you defend, but in the end I believe that the new theme was reasonably accepted by the majority, although tastes always diverge.
    All in all, I believe that our fight with Blizzard would be more for the graphics engine to be extremely heavy even for medium computers in the face of a graphic quality in environmental effects in general that does not justify being extremely heavy for medium and weak computers.

    Goffterdom,
    I think the Reforged models do fit the RTS style of warcraft for most types of maps. I used to think like you did, but after a while I realized that "Zoom In" makes sense to get the camera closer in many moments of battles. In fact, I found it until recently, it could even be bigger, because I use the "Mod Tiny", I really wanted to zoom in even more with the scroll mouse ... As Warcraft is not a BFME2. You have reduced armies and more specific units of great powers, it is profitable for you to have an approximation of realism at various times.
    I just insist that the biggest problem is knowing the right dosage for lighting and demand Blizzard for Patch's that make the Reforged even lighter. I think there is something wrong with this graphics engine, Reforged works with a reasonable quality, it doesn't even compare to the renders of modern games, but it demands too much from computers unnecessarily.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
  5. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    The graphics engine of Warcraft III is good enough now, it is just the models that do not fit into Warcraft style and designwise and also not fitting to any RTS game because of all the problems we all mentioned several times
     
  6. Ardenaso

    Ardenaso

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    idk I like the models and their style; maybe thats because I'm an RPG/RP guy
     
  7. Storm Knight

    Storm Knight

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    My final two cents on Reforgeds visual overhaul :p

    • Chapter 1:

    I actually realize how to express myself exactly the way i wanted.

    Warcraft 3's vanilla visuals supports the artist expressing how a model PERFECTLY looks without the game engine getting in the way of that with its lightning.

    So if the artist paints metal glow on a shoulderpad of a Footman it will remain there forever with no interference, so how good the model looks is how good the author drew its texture and wrapped it perfectly like a gift around the model.

    This is untapped art potential right here, and instead of Reforged expanding on this. they make a system in which first the models look objectively worse without the ingame settings, then they look worse or good depending on the ever changing lightning reflected upon them in an RTS game that is meant to keep visual integrity and not suffer massive framerate problems with numbers on the screen.

    This perfectly in a nutshell represents how i feel about the new visual overhaul and how it impacted the game. and i'm soo happy i finally managed to bring this into words. i wasn't able to due to the lack of understanding how to express what was on my mind.

    • Chapter 2:

    Reforged feels like a visual outcast.
    It is visually incompatible in Blizzard Games categories.
    It doesn't belong in Warcraft 3. it doesn't belong in WoW it doesn't belong in Hots. it doesn't belong in Diablo nor Starcraft, i don't know where it belongs honestly. where am i meant to put this in ?
    Overwatch is more stylish cartoony then Reforged.
    Where in the Blizzard game category is Reforged suppose to be in terms of visuals?


    If Reforged was meant to bring new visuals we were meant to accept but have a choice to ignore then why do it to a game (Warcraft III) with an existing visuals that is tied to how other Blizzard visuals also looks.

    Classic Mode is not a justification for this action, because it is not much to ask for Blizzard to simply follow a more faithful overhaul as an upgrade.

    Just make Reforgeds its entirely different thing or make a new sequel, then remaster Warcraft 3 like how Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition and Starcraft 1 and C&C Remaster is.

    Could it possibly be that Reforged visuals alone couldn't save them enough money so that they needed to leach and ruin Warcraft 3 just so this.... abomination could be born ? (Foods of all kind for thought, Tarts, Cakes, Roasted Chicken, Pasta with meatballs, you name it)

    • Chapter 3:

    I realize there are those who love the new visuals and were invited to this game because of the advertised visuals, its a matter of opinion that who thinks if traditional Blizzard art looks better. or this new take on an existing old game.

    Just know that, Blizzard didn't even deliver on the promise they gave to these new subset of people anyway, since if we're talking about a new take then the 2018 visuals were better for that then the current one. because the current one is trying to cater to traditional Blizzard art. aka stylized cartoony art. but its failing horribly at it. so Blizzards new visual overhaul is completely the opposite of how their other games look. and it isn't even trying to push its own look so its betraying the new audience they found because of the new visuals since they heavily rolled back on the more realistic and gritty looks since 2018.

    • Chapter 4

    Also would like to say something about the difference of how the art looks and how its transitioned into gameplay. in this regard i stand fully with how Vanilla Warcraft 3 looks, everyone does like to agree that the game seems to have "exaggerated" parts, well yes and no. the exaggeration is much more heavily emphasized in WoW and Hots compared to Warcraft 3 Vanilla (Which is what i personally support).

    There are examples of faithful art done by Andre Kent over at ArtStation. i especially love his Footman.
    <GloriousFootman.PNG>

    You can see aside from the chest being cloth (most likely due to it not being the main part of this specific work he was trying to do) there is no such thing as exaggerated Shoulderpads. And the way in which it manages to perfectly modernize the original concept of the INGAME model is really dare i say... orgasmic.

    Also in one aspect Reforged fails to adapt traditional art, is realistic proportion sizes of body parts, yet a bit too much blown out of proportion armor parts. Like how the original Human Paladins body was very beefy same so in artworks of it, yet the armor was tuned down and the cloth parts over it helped both for detecting the models team color and also showing a more humble look for the model, while the new one aside from the head is tuned down body parts but blown out of proportion armor size and detail.

    So in conclusion my personal position on the visual overhaul is somewhere in between the simplistic details and faithful proportion sizes of the original games ingame models (Big or Small) and the lightning and graphics engine of the Heros of the Storm. since i hate unnecessary minor details on models of an RTS game that doesn't need to be there. (not to take simpler details as a meaning of lesser quality of set details)

    The least one can say about the visual overhaul plan over this project is: Very Confusing. or Without any set in stone goal.

    • Bonus:

    This is Thralls ingame Reforged model, simply dismounted by a Retera. (The Shorka)

    <Thrall HD.PNG>

    This is the same model, but its not ingame and is not using the ingame lightning and graphics that it is soo dependent on.

    <Thrall HD Model.PNG>

    This is a fan made Thrall model that is not "HD". (Made by Traggey)

    <Thrall Classic Graphics.png>

    ^^^ This model looks exactly like this both ingame or outside of the game through a model viewer.

    Its what i like to call the art of ageless graphics. but Reforgeds realistic take is going to age much worse. its going to be extremely average visuals in a year or 2. because Blizzard failed to transition their ageless graphics standards and channel it unto the new project.

    In any case, thanks for reading.
     
  8. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    Just to add one more thing, the model can be both hd and look great inside or outside of the game too by keeping the art style Warcraft universe have and being properly made: https://trello-attachments.s3.amazo...53/4f021f1ecec725097e304b6be043eb52/image.png
     
  9. Venombite

    Venombite

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    It's funny how people still keep complaining about the new unit models. There are dozens of reasons why Refunded became a disaster, and new unit models are the least, if their the reason at all. The reasons are pretty much everything else.
    Complaining about new unit models is like complaining about the still in one piece roof of a building whose wall have crumbled at this point.
     
  10. Storm Knight

    Storm Knight

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    This is its own niche thread created for artistic feedback. so complaining about people giving feedback about something in a controlled location without going unto other areas bothering people is sort of foolish. and for the record. no i fully know of the many other problems the game has through and through. and i will hardly try to cast any part of it aside. all of them are equally important and played a major roll in unison as to why Reforged did poorly. with the exception of disconnections that are above all because it makes the game unplayable.

    But we should end this specific discussion right here since i'd like for the Thread to remain on topic as it should.
    This threads name isn't "Why Reforged Failed insert your opinion"

    Its "Warcraft III Reforged - Artistic/Textures/UI Feedback"
     
  11. Juveqis

    Juveqis

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    Yeah, it's true, you are 100% right, thank God that you are here to show us the path of what is worth complaining or what is not, you decide on the rest of the mortals since you have the absolute truth...
    Praise Venombite!

    It's not like the original game takes up 2 GB and Reforged takes up an extra 30 GB...
    It have nothing to do with new unit models, right?
    Not related at all...

    Damn, you really must think we're retarded...
     
  12. loktar

    loktar

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    lol jeez calm down
     
  13. Venombite

    Venombite

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    Quick fact checker:
    No, I didn't say what's worth complaining about and what's not. Everything that helps you went your frustration is worth complaining. I just said that, to me at least, the unit model art is the last thing to cause you frustration in the first place, at this point. Especially since the game has dozens of bugs, stability and performance issues to a point it feels unplayable at times. And that it's lacking 17 year old features that they obviously weren't able to deliver in time.
    No, it doesn't. It has to do with release policy, that makes Refunded a forced downgrade. One of the biggest reasons to cause frustration, besides the fact that it was released unfinished. So it ultimately went to become the forced downgrade that adds 28Gbs to people who don't want Refunded. It has nothing to do with units art.

    And since I can complain about art, here is a complain of mine. The problem, to me, aren't new unit models, but the fact that they took 2020 unit models and put them on like 2008 background. Ground, trees, cliffs, vegetation, water, don't fit the new models at all, and look like they're lagging ten years in the past. And the terrible lighting is another thing, though it's the result of modified/redone engine being scrapped, obviously, and releasing the game with 2020 models on a prehistoric engine.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  14. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    Whenever someone posts a nice feedback it just gets lost in other peoples unreleated stuff, it is better to give that great post more spot.

     
  15. SebioL

    SebioL

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    YourArthas, I don't think it's so good enough to overload a machine so much in the face of what it has offered. (landscape effects, general ambience, quality terrains ...)

    Storm Knight,
    As for the models, frankly I don't see why so much despair. Have you changed the traditional design of Blizzard games? Okay, but it changed for the better. If on the one hand Reforged became a differentiated game on models, this difference was to improve. I much prefer these models with highly realistic features (different from HOTS, WOW, Diablo), than the HD models from the last games, only repeat the same things. Example of the Paladins, the faces look like real people.
    I appreciate the drastic change in the visual style of an RTS, we are in a new generation, nobody is forced to live tied to the same historical design just because they have marked our generations. If one thing was good, it was the aesthetic innovation of the models, Reforged reinvented itself in terms of realistic style, only for the models I made a point of paying for the game. And they were wrong ... It was because they did not make even more models in this genre.
    If you want HD models with the same standard footprint, you have had this option to import your WOW, Diablo, HOTS for many years in your Wc3 classic.
    What we should complain about and none of you almost mention, is the landscape structure that also lacked being realistic, it maintained the same format of land and poor environmental accessories as the old one. On the one hand, they entered for a new aesthetic generation (models). On the other hand (environments), Blizzard missed it!
     
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Very realistic, big tall bodies, small heads and doll portraits.
     
  17. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    We are not trying to overload a machine we are trying to *remaster* a game, the models of Reforged are not an improvement, and no it did not change for better, it became a generic non blizzard game. Blizzard is famous with their art style, Warcraft franchise has a style and Reforged is not that it is just a mobile game looking RPG(!) with WC3 name written on it.

    Models do not have any real hand driven detail and most improtantly they do not even have care to even fit with each other, one doodad named 'wall' has a different colour than the next one called 'wall end' that's how they did not even give a shit about the game called 'Warcraft III' when they were making them.
     
  18. Storm Knight

    Storm Knight

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    This reply is comical to me. so i'm going to respond to it comically.
    Other then this "Have you changed the traditional design of Blizzard games? Okay." Which i just fail to understand and find it extremely confusing so i'll cut that part out. or maybe i won't i think i understand what was it meant to be.

    As for your view on the models, Frankly i don't see why so much love, is any level of traditional Blizzard art even channeled in Reforged? Yes, But it changed for the worse. If on the one hand Reforged became more higher quality and detailed then say Hots. This difference fundamentally was a downgrade for the game. i much prefer counterparts like Hots or an upgraded version of the Warcraft 3 HD models from 2008 in terms of stylish cartoony style, then the Reforgeds visuals only changing things for the mindless reason of change without actually thinking why are they changing and if there is a legit reason that set change is superior and there is more reason behind it then just "Well we change it just because". Example of the Paladins, The faces look like real people. while Warcraft humans have always been somewhat more beefy and stylistic with their own charm. which is one of the main points of the game standing out compared to <Insert X generic Fantesy Universe Here>

    I despise the drastic change in the visual style of an RTS, we are in a new generation, and it is best we make sure what kept the game look unique is transitioned, if we allow generic realistic takes with overblown armor to overtake the visual direction of the game then the games looks hardly any different from your generic fantesy genre. if one thing was good, it was the asthetic innovation of traditional Blizzard art and how they have managed to stand the test of time over and over. as i mentioned in the very last sentences of my original post "The Art of Ageless Graphics". Reforged regressed itself in terms of how Warcraft 3 or Warcraft in general should look. and there is hardly any evidence of innovation since there was no super dedicated art team and direction behind the game. all 3 of the original art directors had left. Brian Sousa took the project but left it halfway through. and Lemonsky made reddit posts saying the communication that was suppose to be there in terms of directing the art was always down to most of their work just getting free passes with hardly any critique which obviously points to the rushed development cycle of everything that had to do with Reforged.

    If you want Realistic models within a pre established game with an iconic art style and graphics that point the opposite of realism, then i would suggest you're being unfair to anyone who loved the genre and was attracted to it because of set looks. because they got betrayed just for a new audience. if Blizzards goal was to swap audience, Reforged would be the perfect way to do it. but good luck trying to argue that it is reasonable or not. because it isn't. especially since most Blizzard games are always very long term value games that people stick with and get used to for years and years and years to come.

    What we should complain about and none of you almost mention, is the fact that the vanilla games terrain and landscape have more variations thus they look more complex and cool. while Reforgeds terrain lost almost exactly half of its terrain variations compared to Vanilla and in some instances even less then half like tree variations. and for some reason people seem to think Reforged terrain looking the way it does is like Warcraft 3 Vanilla just because they are misinformed and have a bias image of what they want to believe in their heads of how Vanilla actually looks. But that doesn't change the fact that they entered in a new age of generic and samey generation for models. doubled by the realistic graphics and the games older engine which is already heavily struggling and suffering framerate issues to keep up with the new visual overhaul.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  19. SebioL

    SebioL

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    deepstrasz,
    Obviously, in some aspects, designers needed to leave some stylistic factor capable of adding more apparent projections in which they could approach fantasy or artistic drawings.
    Reforged brought you something new to the nearest realism mixed with some drawn art.
    Now you complain that he doesn't have pure realism ... So ... You make up your mind! After all, if it is to make it totally real, forget about graphic designers or any minor art. Put real people with armor in real sizes. Import first-person game models like MounteBlade or genres like TotalWar ..! You must be playing ... lolol
     
  20. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I don't care about that. It's not Warcraft. I didn't expect a movie instead of a remaster.
    Even the remade intro looks horrible. The Grunts look more human than orc.