Techtree Contest

[Ghost765]

well, just say: Be smart about what kind of race you choose and use some common sense aswell. entries such as Modern and Future races will be ignored.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I honestly think that without theme restrictions we will get loaded with stupid entries. How about Warcraft theme, at least?

Oh wow, just goes to show how short-sighted I can be... I figured this was a given. Yeah, I totally agree; make a freakin' race in the freakin' game, guys. None of this "undersea Elves!" or "flying elephant-people" races.

I honestly don't see the point in this argument. It won't be mini-races.

I honestly don't see why you can't be open to the possibility of even discussing it. I know all mods are different, but take Gilles for example; even if he goes with Full-Races, I know he has read and understands my side of it, and has discussed it with me. You, on the other hand, have almost completely ignored me with little support.

 

[Gilles]

Kyrbi0, I really don't like the idea of no balancing, and I don't think you can compare them with the other races. In the campaign, there are set enemies, and the computers are controlled a certain way. The Naga are not comparable with the other races.

 

[Kyrbi0]

In the campaign, there are set enemies, and the computers are controlled a certain way.

>_> I'm not sure I get that... But I agree with

The Naga are not comparable with the other races.

~~~

Kyrbi0, I really don't like the idea of no balancing, and I don't think you can compare them with the other races.

Hmm. I agree that with Mini-Races you can't really compare with the others. I just think Balance isn't as important as Design, in this case.
Balance to me is something you take a stab at (i.e. "this ability deals damage and stuns, but for less damage/duration than Thunder Clap, so it should have a slightly lower cooldown and mana cost"), then playtest to get right.
However, if the creator has put a lot of thought into the race, to make it really cool, interesting and unique, I definitely think that should rank higher in this case.

 

[cool_is_i]

magic based
a whole host of possibilities

goblins


and no limitations
woops, voted for the -theme- before i read
dont hurt me!

 

[Gilles]

>_> I'm not sure I get that

I meant that the Naga race was only balanced for the campaign. It wouldn't be any good for a melee game.

Hmm. I agree that with Mini-Races you can't really compare with the others. I just think Balance isn't as important as Design, in this case.
Balance to me is something you take a stab at (i.e. "this ability deals damage and stuns, but for less damage/duration than Thunder Clap, so it should have a slightly lower cooldown and mana cost"), then playtest to get right.
However, if the creator has put a lot of thought into the race, to make it really cool, interesting and unique, I definitely think that should rank higher in this case.

I just prefer to have balancing, and I can't really explain why. I guess for one thing, I don't want to see a race where each unit has over the top amazing abilities.

It's just your opinion on mine, and as long as we're the only ones in this discussion, my opinion trumps yours.

 

[Linaze]

Of course you can just wave the hand and pick how this contest should be. But then again, what is really the point of this thread at all, in that case?

 

[Gilles]

I said as long as it was just myself and Kyrbi0 debating. I don't think I've ever actually gone against the publics opinion on any contest.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I just prefer to have balancing, and I can't really explain why. I guess for one thing, I don't want to see a race where each unit has over the top amazing abilities.

Well yeah. I don't mean epic-amazing spells; I mean, like, interesting or creative spells. For example, a Possession-like ability that instead works on mechs and Towers (like "Hijack") isn't game-ending, but it's creative and has some strategy to it, I would think.

It's just your opinion on mine, and as long as we're the only ones in this discussion, my opinion trumps yours.

Yeah. We could sit and argue forever; I don't really care to. I say make it a poll.

 

[Linaze]

I said as long as it was just myself and Kyrbi0 debating. I don't think I've ever actually gone against the publics opinion on any contest.

A simple misunderstanding from my side then, my apologizes, mr Arena Mod.

 

[Chaos.]

Well i am so going to get owned in this competition mainly because i am not good at making new spells and all of you guys seem to know how, but i am still going to give it a shot. I have to make several races for my new campaign adventually anyways so why not make one of them for this competition. And ive always wanted to play around with the spells so this will be a good chance to learn. So have we confirmed a date yet?

 

[Kyrbi0]

Do you have an opinion, Full race vs. Mini? We're kind of at an impasse.

 

[Chaos.]

full tech all the way. the point of these competitions is to create another playable race that can compare to blizzards 4 races, Isn't it?

 

[Linaze]

I thought I could post a list with pros and cons I could think of when it comes to mini vs full races for people who don't care to read trough entire pages to find arguments for and against.

Full race:

• (+)Easier to balance as you can compare to the 4 already existing races.
• (+)Will be usable in altered melee maps.
• (-)More work -> Could lead to less and "worse" submissions.

Mini-race:

• (+)Less work -> Could lead to more and "better" submissions.
• (-)Balancing will be an issue, since there is nothing to compare a mini-race too, as there are none already created.

 

[Chaos.]

Full tech might be more work but if they give us a fairly long timeline then i think that you could get some good entries. and even if you do get some crappy entries, then so what. just dont give them good scores, its not that big of a deal.

 

[LordDz]

Count me in on this one, I've always loved to create new units and stuff.

Voted for no imports and all the themes except medieval .
and I hope the races will be judged by their balance and such, not only for how awesome their blink blink jass spells are .

 

[Kyrbi0]

I thought I could post a list with pros and cons I could think of when it comes to mini vs full races for people who don't care to read trough entire pages to find arguments for and against.

Let me modify this list a bit...

Full race:

• (+)Easier to balance as you can compare to the 4 already existing races.
• (+)Will be usable in altered melee maps.
• (-)More work -> Could lead to fewer entries, and few, if any, coming to completion
• 
  

Mini-race:

• (+)Less work -> Could make the contest feasible.
• (+)Usable in campaigns.
• (-)Balancing will be an issue, since there is nothing to compare a mini-race too, as there are none already created.

Also, Linaze, this might interest you.

 

[cool_is_i]

cant you compare mini races to the pre-existing naga?
its not a complete race, but its still playable.

 

[Chaos.]

Well if you think about it, you only need like 5 entries to make this competition good. Any others are a bonus. I say 5 because there are 3 winners + atleast 2 others so that ppl actually have to work to win, its not just a guarentee due to lack of contestants. I myself am confirming my entry(as long as i can do my draenei race, And if were doing creeps or open theme then i can). Also LordDz just said that he would enter. and if you guys dont enter then it would be very odd considering that you have spent so much time debating here. And im sure that others will join this contest to. So i think that even if we get less entries with full races, there would still be enough of us to make this a good contest. So it should be full tech.


You cant do naga because they dont have AI so someone would have to make AI for them in order for us to compare it to.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Well if you think about it, you only need like 5 entries to make this competition good. Any others are a bonus. I say 5 because there are 3 winners + atleast 2 others so that ppl actually have to work to win, its not just a guarentee due to lack of contestants.

I agree with this.

I myself am confirming my entry(as long as i can do my draenei race, And if were doing creeps or open theme then i can). Also LordDz just said that he would enter. and if you guys dont enter then it would be very odd considering that you have spent so much time debating here. And im sure that others will join this contest to. So i think that even if we get less entries with full races, there would still be enough of us to make this a good contest. So it should be full tech.

I disagree. I think I will only enter if it's "Mini-Race" (especially because Wc3C might be hosting a similar contest soon..., and I could then do one race for both contests). I argued because I want to see things succeed here.

You cant do naga because they dont have AI so someone would have to make AI for them in order for us to compare it to.

That makes no sense whatsoever. It's not a matter of AI's or something like that. It's all about balance. You can play the 4 races and have them balanced against one another; but with the Naga you can't, because they are very different (also, they are pretty overpowered, IMO).

(Also IMO, we can compare the Naga and the playable 4, since they could fight equally in the campaigns, by just making the Naga (less units) more powerful).

Also, if it's a Mini-Race techtree contest, I think Naga entries should be prohibited, since
1: It'd be hard to prove that they re-made everything themselves (in the Object Editor)
2: It takes no creativity or planning; what Blizzard made is pretty much "teh shiz".

 

[Gilles]

Long time lines can work against people. We saw that in the campaign contest.

 

[Chaos.]

Well it doesnt have to be too long. just long enough so that ppl who have school and other things to do dont have to rush.

 

[Kyrbi0]

^And since a Long time-line is what would be required to complete a full-race, a Mini-race would thus be more appropriate.

 

[Chaos.]

So what would we compare the races too if naga are too overpowering

 

[Kyrbi0]

1. Make each mini-race a bit "overpowerful". That way, it's "balanced compared to the playable four" (since they have more units/heroes and thus more tactics; instead, you have a more powerful, less diverse army).
2. Make them loosely "balanced" (i.e. don't make an ability that Stuns for 10 seconds. Just don't)
3. Maybe we should worry more about how cool the ideas are, or how well they "fit" into whatever race you pick, or how innovative and creative your abilities are (NO, I'm not talking about "blink blink JASS spells", I mean simple Object/Trigger Editor stuff that is useful).

 

[Chaos.]

Well to tell you the truth we all could sit here and argue this all day but the point is that the majority want full tech including gilles and void so that is what its probably going to be.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Well to tell you the truth we all could sit here and argue this all day

We could. But we don't have to. Poll?

but the point is that the majority want full tech including gilles and void so that is what its probably going to be.

O RLY? ~Void~ is pro-Full races, but all Gilles has said is that he prefers Balancing. He has made no decision either way.
Likewise, there are a number of people who are pro-Mini-race (myself included, of course). We have no idea if it's a Majority.

 

[Chaos.]

Now that i think about it, i have no idea why im debating for a full race. I wanted to make a full of draenei for my campaign, but i just now realized that it would be way too hard to make a good draenei race without using the same models and buildings several times. And since i will only have one hero in my campaign(akama) Then a mini race would probably benefit me more. Sry for all the debating, lol.

And now that i really think about it, if the theme is creep then mini would be the better option mainly because ppl can make one using only one race and still make it good without a lot of repeated models. If it was a full race then ppl would have to combine several races and then it might not be as useful. Someone could find a much better use of a pure centaur race, instead of having centaur, harpies and razormane all mixed in. And it would be kind of hard for someone to make 16 new and unique hero abilities if you had to make 4 heroes. Also if the limit is only 1 mb then mini races would also be a better option if you want to add in new models, spells and icons for your race.(you have less units to worry about, meaning less neccissary imports)

So i guess my vote would be with the mini races, although i will enter either way. if its full i might just pick a different race and do it just for the fun of it. Again sry for all my previous aguements, lol.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Lawl. I guess I appreciate you outlining all the points I've made.

 

[Ghost765]

Chaos., just find someone to team up with if you have trouble in making triggered spells.
so... i dont really understand what gilles is saying, is it gonna be No Theme or Creep (Possibly Magic?) theme?

 

[Chaos.]

Im not saying that the spells themselves are too hard for ppl, i meant that trying to come up with new ideas for 16 spells for the heroes + all the spells for all your other units will be a bit tough. Im a very quick learner. it wont take long before i figure out how to make some myself. lol, so just like kyrbi0 said, it is alot less work to do. and now that school is back in for me i have gotten alot more lazy to do more work then i have to. lol

 

[Kyrbi0]

I think we've decided that it shouldn't involve a "Theme" where we have to pick a certain type of race. Just anything not Human/Orc/Undead/Night Elf (or Naga, if Mini-Races).

I presume?

 

[Chaos.]

Well i think that we need to have a new poll, instead of debating everything. the poll should be whether you want a theme(creep) or no theme, and if you want mini or full tech. I think that having a set theme would help to avoid the non warcraft related entries like modern and futuristic. but thats just my opinion.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I agree with having a new poll (or fixing the old one).

However, we don't have to have some Theme regulation to keep people inside the Warcraft universe. That's just something the mod puts inside the First Post Rules (i.e. Rules: Create a race. Must be within the Warcraft universe)

 

[Ghost765]

will remakes be allowed? like remakes of the human race.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I wouldn't think so; but then again, some remakes could be interesting (Fel Orcs, Forsaken, Bandits/Medieval...).

 

[Linaze]

I would say it should be allowed, as long as it is your idea of a human techtree, and not blizzards.

 

[Ghost765]

exactly.

 

[Gilles]

Bandits are creeps, so yes, there could be a human type race.

I think we'll go with creeps, file size limit, and full-tech.

 

[Kyrbi0]

-_- Good luck.

 

[Gausslander]

-_- Good luck.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[HFR]

Oh God, accidentally voted in "Theme" and "Race" thinking that this options enable the votes, damn! It's the first time that this happens to me... Always read everything before posting, always read everything before posting, always read everything before posting

 

[Ghost765]

ugh. creep theme.

 

[Linaze]

Full tech, I'm out.
Good luck to the rest of you.

 

[Locked]

Naga,Blood Elf and Daemon

 

[Gilles]

Oh God, accidentally voted in "Theme" and "Race" thinking that this options enable the votes, damn! It's the first time that this happens to me... Always read everything before posting, always read everything before posting, always read everything before posting

Sorry, but I don't break my word.
-rep

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please, no whining, I hear it every contest from someone.

 

[Ghost765]

well, since goblins or dwarves arent creeps, im out as well.

 

[Just_Spectating]

whats wrong with a creep race?

no creativity guys?

 

[HFR]

Ok, I made an mistake... But it's just two points, for races, an dwarven would be good, as there's plenty of models here.

 

[Chaos.]

well there goes 3 ppl that left this competition. i might stand a chance after all. Im just hoping that there is only 3 entries in total so that i will atleast get 3rd. lol.

Well maybe it should be warcraft theme and mini races, we would secure more entries that way. Now im starting to doubt that there will be enough to actually make this a competition. But if you made mini races and warcraft theme, then your guarenteed like 5 entries right off the start.