Techtree Contest

[Gilles]

We don't even have any mapping contests going on right now. Just art. I think we can start it now.

We do have the paired mapping contest and the campaign contest. How about starting it on the 28th?

awesome, cant wait. And if you think about it there are just as many pandaran models as there are furbolg, centaur, harpy, gnolls, etc...

That's why they aren't options....

 

[Linaze]

Will you join as a team or do it solo?

 

[Gilles]

Not sure yet. I thought about adding that as an option. Maybe either?

 

[Linaze]

I'd say no teams, but that's just me.
Team contests usually fail more often than those where people work alone.

 

[Paladon]

I support the possibility of teams.
I additionally think the reputation award should be splitted between the team members.
So you can enter alone, and get the full rep. award if you win, or enter in a team, with splitted rep. award.

 

[Gilles]

That might be a good idea.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Dangit, looks like I got to this too late to complain. xD :/

Then again, if I can't even finish my own techtree projects, what right have I to influence the goings-on of a techtree contest?...

~~~

Umm, may I just agree with everyone else in saying that if we do only 1 race, it will be waaaay terrible (I mean, how many ways can you make a [fill-in-the-blank] race? Seriously?). "Creeps", is better....

No Imports wouldn't be fun (for the reasons stated above), but then some people would be at a slight disadvantage, depending on the race... Bah, who cares!

Dang. Well, I might do this. Teams should definitely be an Option; I don't want to be forced. However, ya'll underestimate the amount of work that goes into a good race mod... So yeah, Teams should be an option.

Anyway, I'm blowing hot air, as this thing seems to have been decided. :/ Meh.

--EDIT--

Oh, I completely agree with the above poster:

the tech tree should consist of
-farm type building
-primary barraks type building with 3 trainable units and 1 upgrade for each unit
-an altar
-advance barraks with another 3 trainable units and 1 upgrade for each unit
-tech tree hall with 2 offensive and 2 defensive upgrades (to level 3)
-main building where workers are trained and 1 misc upgrade
-defence tower
-<insert building here>

If we make this Techtree contest about Mini-Races instead of full-on races, I can almost promise we'll have a better turnout (more/better entries).

i.e. Naga:

Heroes - 1
- That's right, just one hero. The representative of that race.
Buildings - ~6
- Town Hall (no Levels/Tiers!)
- Altar
- Farm
- Tower
- Barracks(1)
- Barracks(2)
Units - ~8
- Worker
- Basic Melee
- Basic Ranged
- Flying
- Caster
- Siege
- Advanced Melee
- Advanced Ranged

Of course, we can use our imagination a bit from there. Mixing "unit-roles", having a speciality "Uber Building" for our races, etc etc. Basic framework, though, remains the same.
I totally think doing something like this would make for a better contest.

~~~

So anyway, TL;DR:
- Teams = Yes.
- - IF Teams = Split Reward
- Make it a "Mini-Techtree" Contest, plox.
- Let us pick our Race (period).

 

[Ghost765]

ho hum, do we have to follow that outline? i had some different ideas in mind. and yes, i think teams should be an option.
just noticed, but a few of the options in the poll are creeps. Naga are classified as neutral passive campaign (i think) in WE, Goblins are definitely neutral passive, demons are neutral hostile. So what exactly is the creep option?

 

[raid1000]

creep is everything that has race = creep
human commoner creep critter demon undead orc nightelf other none naga
creep is everything in the neutral hostile folder

 

[Kyrbi0]

ho hum, do we have to follow that outline? i had some different ideas in mind.

Emphasis on "outline". On one hand, we want to foster creativity; sure, come up with some good stuff. On the other, if we don't have some basics (which is what I pointed out; basics) in common, then how can they be graded/voted on effectively?

We gotta have some framework off of which to build. I just happen to feel that a mini-techtree (in this case: the Naga race from TFT) would be perfect for this.

So what exactly is the creep option?

Bah, I think "Creep" should mean "anything but Human/Orc/Undead/Night Elf", personally.

 

[Ghost765]

so... creep is...
1. Any race not in the ladder races but in wc3?
2. Any race thats under Neutral Hostile/Passive?

which one?

 

[~Void~]

It's going to be a full race.

 

[Aschy]

Bah, I think "Creep" should mean "anything but Human/Orc/Undead/Night Elf", personally.

Does it not? I was understood that there is the playable races, unplayable races (Naga which is a race not a creep), neutral passive, and neutral hostile (Creeps)

 

[~Void~]

Creep races are races based off the little neutral enemies you find scattered across the map.

 

[Chaos.]

so this would be list of creeps(tell me if i missed any or if you dont think that one of these should be on the list) You could use one or more of these to make your race:

-dark trolls
-forest trolls
-ice trolls
-Furbolg
-Spider
-lizard
-murloc
-satyr
-wolves
-bandits
-golems
-kobold
-sasquatch
-centaur
-dragons
-harpy
-wildkin
-quillboar
-revenant
-sludge
-skeleton
-draenei(lost ones)
-nether dragon
-eredar
-fel guard
-fel beast
-succubus
-voidwalker
-infernal
-doom guard
-hydra
-makrura
-turtle
-arachnathid
-dragonspawn
-faceless
-magnataur
-mammoth
-nerubian
-tuskarr
-unbroken
-ogre
-sea giant
-spider crab
-mok'nathal
-goblin
-forsaken
-pandaran
-pit lord
-corrupted treants
-zombie
-bears
-gnolls
-elementals
-critters(?)

 

[Just_Spectating]

haha

someone is gunna do a critter race fo sho now.

 

[Chaos.]

lol. about a year ago, i got really bored and actually designed a whole race with critters. that is something that would be funny to see.

 

[Just_Spectating]

if no one else does it ill do it for this contest

 

[Chaos.]

lol. do it. it would be an awesome race. it would be hilarious to see something like the blizzard ability but with falling sheep instead. There is definatly enough units. and the buidings would be so simple.

sry, starting to go offtopic. anyways is there any im missing in that list?

 

[Just_Spectating]

-bear
-treant
-corrupted treant
-zombie
-ghost
-gnoll
-stormweaver
-elemental
-villager
-zerg
-marine

 

[Chaos.]

well bear i thought would go under critter.
treant is night elf
corrupted treants-yes (corrupted ancients and treants go good with the satyr race)
and zombie-yes

 

[Just_Spectating]

a bear isnt a critter!

theres like polar bear in the creeps section and it has its own attack

and theres like Misha!

 

[Chaos.]

true. alright ill add bear.
cant believe that i forgot gnolls
ghosts added
stormweaver are pretty much orcs
elementals yes
villiger-like the critters, it would be an interesting race to see. with all the houses and that kind of stuff.
zerg and marine are not warcraft 3 creeps they are units added in by blizzard just for the fun of it.

 

[~Void~]

-bear
-treant
-corrupted treant
-zombie
-ghost
-gnoll
-stormweaver
-elemental
-villager
-zerg
-marine

You don't find zergs and marines on melee maps. It's ONLY races that can be found on melee maps. Animals like wolves and bears can be PART of the race, but don't expect to get a good score for making a race of animals that build shit.

 

[Just_Spectating]

so villager wont work either?

 

[busterkomo]

Creep is the logical choice for this contest. There are so many creep models it would make sense to vote for no imports, so I did just that.

 

[Ghost765]

uh... alot of the things u mentioned would fit under "demon" like felguard/sucubuus or how ever u spell it. what about goblins? you can but them from their laborotaries, and they have that little merchant shop.
lol, a race of villagers? wat would that be? militia?

 

[Chaos.]

According to wowwiki the defintion of creeps is any non-player unit that is meant to be killed to gain experience. so a creep would basically be any unit that you would find in a wc3 melee map.

well now that i think about it villigers would not be considered creeps. i mean you dont see them in any melee maps (lol if you ever did want to make them a race then you could make villigers with pitch forks or something like that). i dont know if goblins would be considered a creep race. you can only get them from goblin laboritories and taverns. you never see them in wc3 melee maps as creeps. And i guess critters wouldnt go under that category either.

and ghost, i just listed the species from wc3. how you put them together to form a race would be up to you.

 

[~Void~]

Fuck WoW wiki. The creeps I'm referring to are the creeps WC3 ladder players refer to; the things that you find in camps all over the maps.

 

[Ghost765]

so... are goblins creeps or not? and what about subraces like dwarves or elves that are technically part of the humans, but not really?

 

[~Void~]

No, the theme is creeps. And goblins aren't part of that.

 

[anarchianbedlam]

I have a few questions here that i think would really help narrow this field down.

If "Creeps" were picked as the techtree race, could we use units from the standard warcraft races along with the creeps? Like for example, if you were to make a corrupt race with satyrs and corrupt treants could you use demon illidin as a shadow for a unit?

Also, for that matter, if "Creeps" were picked as the race, could we use imported units?

 

[Just_Spectating]

Its all based on creativity

so any unit will work if you can implement it into your custom race

 

[Artins the Great]

Why we making such a big deal outta this? creep is creep. Like these guyz you see around the map you kill early in map to get experience and gold? Apparently none of you played melee.

 

[Ghost765]

bullshit. anything thats not part of the 4 races and is in WE should be a creep, since their neutral.
looks like medieval might have a chance?
edit: im making a big deal out of this since that i dont like creeps that much, yet i still want to do this contest.

 

[Kyrbi0]

It's going to be a full race.

Were you answering me? If so:

Aww man, don't make me beg. Now that I've thought about it, making a mini-race like the Naga would be the best. You'd definitely get more entries (both because a full race is a lot of work and because more people will have the time/inclination to make a smaller race). Moreover, it'd be even better for the "yes-imports -- yes-filesize limit" people, since they wouldn't have an entire race of custom imports (they could fill the entire mini-race with custom stuff, and it would still be ok).

edit: im making a big deal out of this since ...., yet i still want to do this contest.

Same here.

 

[anarchianbedlam]

Wouldnt the Goblin section also fit under the creep section?

 

[Gilles]

Creeps are the hostile units you find in normal wc3 melee games. The Hydralisk, ling, and Marine would not count. Neither would the villagers, or critters.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Creeps are the hostile units you find in normal wc3 melee games. The Hydralisk, ling, and Marine would not count. Neither would the villagers, or critters.

Well, they may not be "hostile", but wouldn't it be great to see a race made of them?

~~~

Hey, another plug for "mini-races" and "optional teams":

Please let us have the option of teaming up (2 max, though). That way, we could potentially team up a "coder" (guy who makes the triggers, abilities, & Object Editor stuff) and an "artist" (guy who could texture/model/, or make icons/sfx, etc), and get a really good product (like those ever-popular "Hero Contests" over at Wc3C).
Moreover, working on a mini-race gives said "artist" less work to do (I think we all remember the debacle that was the Hive Olympics; each modeller = 6 models!?!).

(However, I don't mean, if teamed with an "artist", that the team would have to make anything custom; just that it would be an option, and that as a team, they would be more unified towards this purpose (instead of using random stuff from the Download section).)

 

[Linaze]

I believe that it would be better to go for a mini-techtree contest like the Naga techtree, just like Kyrbi0 suggested. Mainly because it is easier and goes faster to do than an entire three tiers techtree. Anyways, I don't care that much either, tbh.

 

[Belgarath]

IMO, Tauren (which was spelled wrong in the poll, which I'm sure someone already pointed out) and File Size Restriction. Although that's not too nice, seeing as Taurens don't have too many models inside WC3.


IMO, a mini-techtree contest WOULD secure quite a few more entries, since it's faster, and a lot easier. Maybe you could host it as a sub-contest, I dunno.

 

[Gilles]

No pointing out my spelling mistakes!

How do you propose we make the contest "mini"? Add units to an existing race? Finish the Naga?
Honestly I think doing a single race is lame. Everyone would use the same stuff. Perhaps no theme is best.

 

[Chaos.]

isnt the point of the techtree contest to make another race that can be used in a melee map to play against the 3 other races? if we did a mini race then it couldnt be used against the other 3 races.

 

[Kyrbi0]

*whew* I dreaded reading this post, since mods in the past have been... determined. :/

~~~

How do you propose we make the contest "mini"? Add units to an existing race? Finish the Naga?

(Finish the Naga? How is that "mini"? )

I propose that each contestant (or Team of contestants, up to teams of 2) be required to create what we would call a "Mini-Race", the best example of such being the Naga race present in the Wc3: TFT campaign. To specify:

- 1 Tier (no leveling of Town Halls, just one level)
- 1 Hero
- ~8 Units (only the basic roles, i.e. see the middle of this post)
- ~6 Buildings (same as above)

Basically, a "Mini-Race". Suitable for a campaign enemy, even. Moreover, we should allow Custom Imports (but keep a File-Size Limit, say 2 MB?) so as to really flesh out these races. (IMO, the File-Size Limit is easier to do if we're only making custom stuff for a mini-race, making that rule easier as well).

~~~

Honestly I think doing a single race is lame. Everyone would use the same stuff. Perhaps no theme is best.

So do I. In fact, I'd say we were kinda wondering why you made a poll like that, as it suggested we would all make the same race... But you're the mod.

Anyway, yeah. We could still have a theme. The "theme" would be something general, like "primitive cultures", or "magical/elemental races", or "anything not Human/Orc/Undead/Night Elf". But we should be allowed to pick our own races, yes.

isnt the point of the techtree contest to make another race that can be used in a melee map to play against the 3 other races? if we did a mini race then it couldnt be used against the other 3 races.

The point is whatever you want it to be. However, a Mini-Race is perfectly suitable for a campaign (pretty useful), and you can even take a Mini-Race and flesh it out, adding all the stuff to make it a "full" race.

Mini-Races just makes it so much easier for people to enter, and even compete. I don't want a repeat of the Olympics or anything, where it was too much work and everyone lost interest. Mini-Races can always be reworked to be Full Races.

~~~

If this goes through, I will almost definitely be entering with Forest Trolls. I've got a boatload of amazing custom stuff, and Jungle Trolls (the real race I'm working on) are close enough for their ideas to share. Mwahaha.

 

[Gilles]

I dunno what I was thinking when I made this poll. Oh well, I can change it to whatever I want in the end.

I don't like the idea of the mini, because balance is a huge aspect of creating a race, and what would you compare your race to? Naga? I'd rather see a full race. It wouldn't be hard if you go easy on the customization, and don't do imports.

Edit: I don't understand how you propose to balance the race, or "flesh it out".

 

[Kyrbi0]

I don't like the idea of the mini, because balance is a huge aspect of creating a race, and what would you compare your race to? Naga? I'd rather see a full race.

Hmm.. That's a good point.

I would submit that, since the Naga race was always "comparable" to the full-races the player was playing in the campaign (i.e. able to stand it's own, but not overpowering (well, except for Coautls and Royal Guards...)), we could still compare each Mini-Race to each Full-Race.
Or, we could just take each Mini-Race and compare it to the other entries (wait, no never mind.)
Wait, no yeah. Maybe we should worry less about balance, and more about ideas and execution. Like, if we see a race that's just a bunch of garbage (renamed spells w/ different SFX, simple/lame unit/heroes, no changed tooltips, no custom/different stuff, etc), then that race will be judged poorly. However, if we see a well-made race, one that really feels "custom" and captures the "feel" of that particular faction, then that user/team did well and should score well. Even if, against the other races, they are incredibly over/underpowered.

Hmm.. I agree balance is usually very important, but I think that for the purposes of this contest, we should be judging on race design and similar themes.

It wouldn't be hard if you go easy on the customization, and don't do imports.

Customization: ? So are you saying we should just take Blizzard abilities, give them different stats/SFX, and slap them on units? Bah. More customization (to a point) is always better, and I've played enough "race mods" where that garbage passes as the norm. I'd much rather see a miniature, better-thought-out race. :/
Imports: Well, I think we should definitely be allowed to use Imports; otherwise, it will be as that one guy said; "green kobolds for goblins and red footmen for demons" . My point was simply that a mini-race makes that easier.

 

[Ghost765]

yay no theme!
just another question, can triggers be involved in the race in other than spells? for example, putting a limit on super units?

 

[Kyrbi0]

just another question, can triggers be involved in the race in other than spells? for example, putting a limit on super units?

Well, while it shouldn't matter where triggers are used in a race (if they're allowed for spells, they're allowed period), that's something important to note. This is exactly what Gilles is talking about; what are we comparing the spoils of this contest to? If compared to Human/Orc/Undead/Night Elf, then no, we can't have "super units" or anything like that. I for one think we should stick with "melee comparisons" (just me personally).

But yeah, triggers (if allowed) should be for anything you need.

 

[Ghost765]

chimaeras/mountain giant are super units, as are gryphon riders/knights, frost wyrms/aboms, and tauren

 

[~Void~]

I think berserkers can be considered super units too.