New Resource Sections

General Frank

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[samuro’s happy grunt sound]

I still find the thumb down stuff just of an excuse for sunsetting Restricted. (aka stuff they don’t want to be seen)

Restricted are for models that are against the rules and guideline and that otherwise have been uploaded against someone's wish.
Normal users don't see restricted resources.

But we should not lower our standards even lower just because we have an influx of ripped and ported content or just because some people are too lazy to improve their work.
If they don't want to improve their work it is not up to other people or staff and reviewers to carry their butt for them.
 

Retera

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Today yet another new author created "The Lich King" as a Reforged HD model for at least the third time, probably because like all the other authors they wouldn't have known that other "The Lich King" reforged models existed since a bunch of Reforged models are still hidden as Substandard for being derivative works of Blizzard ingame assets.

I commented on the file with a link to all of the similar custom models that I am aware of:

The Lich King

How does the updated process handle this case, where new authors keep making the same content over and over since it always disappears? Presumably now the old ones might be reconsidered as possibly being Approved? Or do we just approve the newest one using the new system?
 

deepstrasz

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probably because
He didn't care to search beforehand.
How does the updated process handle this case, where new authors keep making the same content over and over
We usually restrict copies if they're not considerably different. Another thing we could do is bundle all those together if they are not quite the same thing.
 
Obviously when it comes to this kind of things we want things to be as simple and intuitive as possible so creating more and more sections/ratings/settings isn't ideal.

Perhaps there's an argument to be made for a Geo-merge (What we would consider to be "substandard"-esque) section where basic but useful edits that function and work can go and a kind of "Majority Custom Mesh Work-esque" section for some of our more "artistic" works. Since as the Classic models section shows a lot of low-poly but fully custom modelling is worthy of approval. This is entirely within the Classic Models Section, I don't think Reforged needs such a distinction.

On the other hand maybe its just me but I'm not entirely sure why there's this big taboo about the substandard section anyway. After all it was created due to a large demand for simple models that would not ordinarily be approved and to prevent the millionth request thread of "Footman with swapped this or that". Maybe the problem arose when models that aren't entirely functional got placed with these useful but simple ones and this problem only got worse when Reforged resources came about. However now that we have our beloved Reforged section, maybe the issues with the substandard section will subside?

If anyone could enlighten me what the issue with the name "substandard" is I'd like to hear it. For me I always interpreted it as "The Hive Workshop is not a dump, we expect resources to be of a base line quality i.e. functional, useful, aesthetic and technically working. We have a basic standard when it comes to custom mesh-work etc. However we recognise that models that aren't approvable (that don't fit this standard) should still be available hence we have substandard with the sub merely denoting that these models do not fall within the HIVES measure of standard but not that the works themselves are in some way inherently bad, broken or trash."
 

Chaosy

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Obviously when it comes to this kind of things we want things to be as simple and intuitive as possible so creating more and more sections/ratings/settings isn't ideal.

I don't think it has to.
How do all other "database" sites do it?
Most simply rate 1-10, 1-5 or even 1-100

No subsections (such as substandard) needed, a single system which is very simple as a higher number equals higher quality.
 

Riki

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I have always thought that most of WOW icons are extremely useful, and now is the ideal moment to submit them.

However I'm curious about the WOW icons that have already been submitted. Will those icons be moved to the new section?
 
I don't think it has to.
How do all other "database" sites do it?
Most simply rate 1-10, 1-5 or even 1-100

No subsections (such as substandard) needed, a single system which is very simple as a higher number equals higher quality.

Yeah, I appreciate the rating system however, it would probably fall more into the subjective trap. Whilst Moderation will always have a subjective element if clearly defined sections are put in place then it generally cuts down on some of the vagueness.

People are far more likely to argue over why they're models a 2,3, or 4 out of 5,10 or 100 than they are with if their model is a geo-merge or custom mesh or not :)
 

Chaosy

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I think the proposed changes are good and an improvement over what exists. But I do not think it's ideal. Wont re-iterate too much but substandard has too much variance in the content it contains, especially considering how misleading the name itself can be. And as pointed out adding more sections just makes it more of an annoying to go through when looking for stuff. Which is why I would advocate of putting everything except the worst in the same place and then sort by rating
 
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You can still have rules like "geomerges will be a 2/5" at most.
Because it is way easier to sort by rating/downloads in a sinle section than it is to do the same search in 3 different sections because of some silly segregation for art gallery purposes.

True, I hadn't thought about that.

but substandard has too much variance in the content it contains, especially considering how misleading the name itself can be. And as pointed out adding more sections just makes it more of an annoying to go through when looking for stuff.

Yeah the first sentence I've quoted I feel like is what's caused the biggest issues. The problem was never really that apparent until Reforged models started appearing and now its made the issue very present. Although I suppose now that Reforged has its own section we'll need to see how the new classic substandard section develops.
 

deepstrasz

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I don't think it has to.
How do all other "database" sites do it?
Most simply rate 1-10, 1-5 or even 1-100

No subsections (such as substandard) needed, a single system which is very simple as a higher number equals higher quality.
Then you are forced to search by rating every time and that's bad. People should see what's new too and if you want to search quality and get substandard mixed with that, it's a waste of time when searching. Now, if you search for something specific like a blue dragon, then substandard is quite useful to appear in the search results. Of course, all this should be customizable.

And again, ratings are subjective and that system won't work unless we would only consider mod and reviewer ratings which would still be unfair if not more than 1 mod/reviewer rates a resource and asking them to do it for every resources is asking them to review all resources which is beside the point of having more staff people to do things faster by each reviewing certain resources alone.
I think the proposed changes are good and an improvement over what exists. But I do not think it's ideal. Wont re-iterate too much but substandard has too much variance in the content it contains, especially considering how misleading the name itself can be. And as pointed out adding more sections just makes it more of an annoying to go through when looking for stuff. Which is why I would advocate of putting everything except the worst in the same place and then sort by rating
Then, Substandard and all other sections should also work as badges+tags in that you would be able to eliminate/filter them from the main search or add them to it.



Retera makes a point here:
The Lich King Again
 
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General Frank

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tbh, i got used to the substandard category.. even though i don't see the need for it

Getting used to it does not mean it being a good thing though.
Some people directly want their stuff in there because they themselves are very honest of their work, others don't care where their stuff is as long as people can find it while some few demand that we praise their work to high heaven even if they are not honest to themselves and just argue for the spite of it.
I think letting people improve their work is an excellent thing. It is not however the task and objective of the staff and staff-related people to do the work for the uploader in question. Why should the staff uphold someone when they themselves are not ready to go the extra mile and try to improve their work? That always baffled me so much about some few people - and those few people make the whole section turn sour sometimes.
 

Chaosy

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I think letting people improve their work is an excellent thing.
Nothing about any proposed system would prevent someone from improving. Until they literary remove the update button.
However, you can make the argument that the system should encourage such by having a fairly high barrier to entry.

Makes total sense if the end goal is to showcase talent.
I think this should not be the goal, but if the hive thinks otherwise tough luck for me.


It is not however the task and objective of the staff and staff-related people to do the work for the uploader in question. Why should the staff uphold someone when they themselves are not ready to go the extra mile and try to improve their work?
I don't quite understand this.
Let's say we suddenly put geo merges in the approved section, which is what I assume is one of the aspects you are talking about.
This does not increase the quality of the product. So what is the staff supposedly 'carrying' here?
It does not affect the author's option to alter or improve.

And you phrase it as if the staff somehow loses time and effort by doing this. You just press approve instead of substandard, not exactly straining.
It sounds like you think the staff is going in to update the model itself to keep it up to standards after a "lazy" model is uploaded.
 
There's is a lot of talk here without any relevant information. Name calling almost, disagreements and statements clearly made by those who don't know what issues Reforged madders face.
The talk about people being upset or not wanting to improve might be true, I don't mind my early stuff being substandard, actually it helped me to make much better footmen and knights for the project.
It was probably dressed at SD geomerge makers, since there are NO comments on what to improve or anything at all for almost ANY HD model there is, except the first few all were refused.
The thing of outright removing geomerges by substandardising them was already discussed in a thread I opened.
It might have been easy to do in the past and could result in almost spamming the site with low effort edits, but for HD ones there pretty much is no other way than to geomerge edit.



For those who have no experience with Reforged models (which is everyone except like ~10 guys), I'd like to demonstrate the issue.

This subject is a fully custom model made by my colleague @ShadiHD
- Left side is the sword ingame, with corrupted normal maps (3D look, roughness etc.), appearing almost entirely flat, if it was not for the working ORM that gives it a shine at least.
- Right side is how the sword is supposed to look like with working normal map.

Corrupted Normals.png


I'd like to say that is it very frustrating for artists to make the custom models knowing they will look broken. My assumption is that not many people will spend time doing so until the issue is fixed by Blizzard.
Regardless this all being done for a project Shadi still makes them, and we have spent weeks if not more to experiment and figure out how to not only make the normals look at least flat (instead of beyond fucked like they did at start), but also made sure we know now to edit existing model's texures.
We'd like to share the knowledge here again with everyone (normal map edits of exiting models/textures):

Normal_Map_Settings.png


All of this combined is why we focus mainly on making models from existing assets, and now resorting only is most ¨dire¨ cases to make a fully custom model.
A few examples of added custom ornaments that do appear 3D because they're are edits on an existing model:

Cloak and Shield.png

Ornaments Normals Working.png



Back to the issue. Undoubtedly there are even HD geomerges that clearly took not more than an hour to make: No custom textures were even edited, looks pretty much like it did before, too simple, or even bad.
But both for Reforged and SD there are geomerges that look better than some approved custom models. Protecting custom artists from those who work with edits by hiding geomerges is silly, and simply doesn't exist for any other game modding community that I know of.
I have yet to meet a single custom modeller who disagrees (yes I asked).

So for me a substandard category is not a bad thing overall, even the name of it is fine, as long as good, liked and useful geomerges make it... it's really not that hard.
 
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Sorry, but the resources page is a mess...

Currently you have :
  • Repositories on top (reforged, ported)
  • State in "quick links" area (approved, pending, awaiting update, substandard, restricted)
  • Binary tags in "resource filters" area
This is redundant, confusing and way too complicated.


The whole page layout should be reworked from scratch to get a proper database browser.
Databases are used everywhere, good practices are known.

I suggest specifically :
  • Repositories should be reserved for things that are not compatible with others (to me, only Reforged should have its own repository).
  • All properties should appear in columns of the table, with filtering options on the column header :
    • State (approved, substandard... and now HQ, DC), which could be sorted by default from best to worst, to please guys who want to keep substandard away from the rest.
    • A new property could be created for "degree of customization" (custom mesh/texture/anims, geomerge, ported...).
    • Binary tags could be merged in a "keywords" column.
 
Technical question at staff @Archian

Currently icons don't seem to be displayed in the reforged section.

Additionally in the future, may we upload thier preview in full resolution 256x256?
Previously staff members required even HD icon's preview to be downscale to 64x64 because it was the rule.

I would argue that it is important to view them in full res. to better see the quality or flaws.
 

deepstrasz

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Resources with ''High quality'' and ''Director's cut'' badges should have own section placed above resource pages, like it was done with reforged and ported resources. Otherwise, obtaining these badges won't make sense if you'll make them as visible as anything else.
It would be easier to sort everything through sort of special tags, instead of going through separate forums each with its separate subforums (like Substandard).

In Maps we just tag Reforged maps with the Reforged tag, still.
 

Chaosy

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Resources with ''High quality'' and ''Director's cut'' badges should have own section placed above resource pages, like it was done with reforged and ported resources. Otherwise, obtaining these badges won't make sense if you'll make them as visible as anything else.

There was a similar idea but I cannot find the post. Instead, there would be a spotlight section at the very top which selection 5 random submissions from the high quality pool.

This is better because you do not have to search in multiple sections.

edit:
Your idea would work if they made it so you can search in both sections at once somehow.
 

Archian

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Sorry, but the resources page is a mess...
We are working on a new design ;)

Today yet another new author created "The Lich King" as a Reforged HD model for at least the third time, probably because like all the other authors they wouldn't have known that other "The Lich King" reforged models existed since a bunch of Reforged models are still hidden as Substandard for being derivative works of Blizzard ingame assets.

I commented on the file with a link to all of the similar custom models that I am aware of:

The Lich King

How does the updated process handle this case, where new authors keep making the same content over and over since it always disappears? Presumably now the old ones might be reconsidered as possibly being Approved? Or do we just approve the newest one using the new system?
All HD assets are subject to remoderation. We have already begun moving Substandard HD assets back to Pending status. I think I can already tell you, that many HD Substandard assets will get a new status i.e. get Approved and moved to our mainstream HD database.

Technical question at staff @Archian

Currently icons don't seem to be displayed in the reforged section.

Additionally in the future, may we upload thier preview in full resolution 256x256?
Previously staff members required even HD icon's preview to be downscale to 64x64 because it was the rule.

I would argue that it is important to view them in full res. to better see the quality or flaws.
@Ralle simply forgot to create a HD Reforged Icon section. That's why it's empty at the moment. We will move the HD icons in there soon enough :)

I agree and yes, you can upload HD icon previews in 256x256.
 
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Rui

Rui

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Nice job reintroducing director's cut. (The only mistake was deleting it in the first place!)

I too favor the option to filter by high quality and director's cut. With squishy gorgeous buttons to click on. Sub-forums make it harder to navigate.
 

Retera

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Anyone managed to extract and convert Reforged Special Effects models?

I'm pretty sure your question is off topic, but there's a very simple answer. Think of Reforged Special Effect models as protected maps. We can't even change the color of glows specified in the file. Just the same as with a protected map: changing it isn't impossible, it's just that nobody knows exactly how yet.

The special effects are made with a technology Blizzard licensed from a third party, and when people asked on their website, they said you have to ask Blizzard for the source files if Blizzard means for anyone to mod the effects. Otherwise, just make your own from scratch.
 
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The max map file size is beyond that now. It is at least 512 mb at the moment, and the 30mb+ does not have an influence on the map file size.
Really? Thats awesome. What do you mean by "the 30+ mb does not have an influence on the map size"? Can I use 100 of these models (3gb) without it affecting the map file size?
 

deepstrasz

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This is very cool! Although I think models on 30mb+ is a bit too much when the max size on a map is 124mb or something.
They're probably end up making a dependecies system like with StarCraft II where you also download some files pack along with the map and more maps could share such packs.
The max map file size is beyond that now. It is at least 512 mb at the moment, and the 30mb+ does not have an influence on the map file size.
I remember it was 256mb.
 

Kyrbi0

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Finally getting to this...

That's a good question. But I guess yes, somewhat. We have plans to restructure the Substandard section. Because, like you said "It's being used as a place for plenty of good, working and useful models, which would've certainly had a place in the "Approved" section of years past". We also plan on changing the name to something less "offensive". Because the name "Substandard" is misleading.

Also, after we updated our rules, many substandard resources can be moved to Approved. This is especially the case with Reforged assets.

Right now, the Substandard section is a mess. This is partially due to wrongful moderation and because for some reason, many perfectly good assets got moved to Substandard long ago. I still find assets in Substandard that doesn't belong there. This was due to a technical error long ago. When we upgraded to Xenforo I believe.
This is fantastic news, and may very well kill multiple birds with one stone. I'm actually really excited for this as it may be able to achieve that coveted middle ground between "art gallery" & "emporium" that seems to be tugging us at both ends.

(I forgot to mention "Awaiting Update" in there but of course that's still staying, right?).

This is a good idea. Substandard could be scrapped and replaced with needs fix (Awaiting Update renamed to Needs Fix) and the bugless substandard resources moved to Approved, and obviously good models that aren't simple edits moved to HQ.
Awaiting Update could be kept as is (and Needs Fix be an entirely new rating) if it automatically changes to Needs Fix after a certain amount of time.

So then the ratings would be: DC > HQ > Approved > (Awaiting Update >) Needs Fix > Restricted
Yeah I'm all over this. Honestly you have made me realize that "Needs Fix" is the true "Substandard" (and a better name besides).

Seriously, Substandard has reason to be existed. Giving somebody resources a substandard is telling: " hey, your stuff isn't qualify enough to be approved. Since either you need to pause for break or decide not to update, your stuff can't put on main page but at least you can take your time come back for improvement."
I don't know if people have a problem with Substandard existing, except insofar as it received the bad end of the stick when we moved to XenForo, and it got a bunch of weird buggy stuff, rejected stuff, but also perfectly useful & good stuff. Also it's a "hidden" repository by default which is frustrating, and the name has negative connotations that could be easily avoided.

But the existence of Substandard really is everything the "Needs Fix" category is, and we already have that, so I don't see the need for both.

What I'd do is I'd make a resource Spotlight area above all resources in each section, and have mods pick resources to spotlight, while keeping all the resources in the pages listed below (as they are currently), so the high quality models get their spotlight and get separated from the cheap edits, but the useful cheap edits remain easily accessible.

Like this:
I love this idea as well. Definitely fulfills the desires of the "art gallery"-minded (giving them accolades & notoriety to aspire to), without compromising the desires of the "emporium"-minded.

Obviously when it comes to this kind of things we want things to be as simple and intuitive as possible so creating more and more sections/ratings/settings isn't ideal.

Perhaps there's an argument to be made for a Geo-merge (What we would consider to be "substandard"-esque) section where basic but useful edits that function and work can go and a kind of "Majority Custom Mesh Work-esque" section for some of our more "artistic" works. Since as the Classic models section shows a lot of low-poly but fully custom modelling is worthy of approval. This is entirely within the Classic Models Section, I don't think Reforged needs such a distinction.

On the other hand maybe its just me but I'm not entirely sure why there's this big taboo about the substandard section anyway. After all it was created due to a large demand for simple models that would not ordinarily be approved and to prevent the millionth request thread of "Footman with swapped this or that". Maybe the problem arose when models that aren't entirely functional got placed with these useful but simple ones and this problem only got worse when Reforged resources came about. However now that we have our beloved Reforged section, maybe the issues with the substandard section will subside?

If anyone could enlighten me what the issue with the name "substandard" is I'd like to hear it. For me I always interpreted it as "The Hive Workshop is not a dump, we expect resources to be of a base line quality i.e. functional, useful, aesthetic and technically working. We have a basic standard when it comes to custom mesh-work etc. However we recognise that models that aren't approvable (that don't fit this standard) should still be available hence we have substandard with the sub merely denoting that these models do not fall within the HIVES measure of standard but not that the works themselves are in some way inherently bad, broken or trash."
The issues with "Substandard" are not a few:
- It is by default a "hidden" repository, making it's contents difficult to access for the laymen just searching for cool useful models.
- The name itself has negative connotations which could easily be avoided
- It's basically overlapping with "Needs Fix" (i.e. things that don't meet the site Standards for Approval)
- It is the unfortunate result of some issues with the site-wide move to XenForo a few years back; rejected models got mixed with buggy but decent models & further mixed with simple, good & useful models.
- It's not exactly clear on what the site standards even are.

Yeah the first sentence I've quoted I feel like is what's caused the biggest issues. The problem was never really that apparent until Reforged models started appearing and now its made the issue very present. Although I suppose now that Reforged has its own section we'll need to see how the new classic substandard section develops.
I beg to differ; it has been a problem for quite some time..

Nonetheless I'm glad to see it being resolved here.

Nothing about any proposed system would prevent someone from improving. Until they literary remove the update button.
However, you can make the argument that the system should encourage such by having a fairly high barrier to entry.

Makes total sense if the end goal is to showcase talent.
I think this should not be the goal, but if the hive thinks otherwise tough luck for me.



I don't quite understand this.
Let's say we suddenly put geo merges in the approved section, which is what I assume is one of the aspects you are talking about.
This does not increase the quality of the product. So what is the staff supposedly 'carrying' here?
It does not affect the author's option to alter or improve.

And you phrase it as if the staff somehow loses time and effort by doing this. You just press approve instead of substandard, not exactly straining.
It sounds like you think the staff is going in to update the model itself to keep it up to standards after a "lazy" model is uploaded.
Thank you for all of this.

Sorry, but the resources page is a mess...

Currently you have :
  • Repositories on top (reforged, ported)
  • State in "quick links" area (approved, pending, awaiting update, substandard, restricted)
  • Binary tags in "resource filters" area
This is redundant, confusing and way too complicated.


The whole page layout should be reworked from scratch to get a proper database browser.
Databases are used everywhere, good practices are known.

I suggest specifically :
  • Repositories should be reserved for things that are not compatible with others (to me, only Reforged should have its own repository).
  • All properties should appear in columns of the table, with filtering options on the column header :
    • State (approved, substandard... and now HQ, DC), which could be sorted by default from best to worst, to please guys who want to keep substandard away from the rest.
    • A new property could be created for "degree of customization" (custom mesh/texture/anims, geomerge, ported...).
    • Binary tags could be merged in a "keywords" column.
Very much agree with your prognosis & suggestions.

IMO DC, HQ and Approved should be in the same category/section, with an option to filter. So a default search would return results from all three.
I agree.

Nice job reintroducing director's cut. (The only mistake was deleting it in the first place!)

I too favor the option to filter by high quality and director's cut. With squishy gorgeous buttons to click on. Sub-forums make it harder to navigate.
I agree.
 
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loktar

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I see a lot of ported Materials , but all of them are in pending status for a long time .

Are you guys waiting to change some policies in order to review them ? Or you just haven't got the time to do it yet ?
Haven't had much time for it yet. If you check awaiting update and approved you'll see that some have been reviewed, but yeah more manpower would be welcome.
 
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